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Re: AN 1.6

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  • Scott Duncan
    Hello, P: This is ver[y] interesting: could there be two possible senses of jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)? How can
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 2 5:17 AM
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      Hello,

      P: "This is ver[y] interesting: could there be two possible senses of
      jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)?

      "How can we know the context?"

      Forgive me, I'm a total beginner and so can't say much. I think I was
      looking at the Paali because I can't makes sense of what seemed to be
      the instruction to remain in "jhaana" all the time. Understood as
      "jhaana" as the meditative absorption, which I also understand
      precludes discursive thought when so absorbed, I couldn't understand.
      I thought there must be other senses of jhaana, then, such that one
      could be "in" it while going through one's day.

      Sincerely,

      Scott.
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Venerable Dahammadhiro, Thank you very much for the additional material on the particles. It may not be easy to recognize them in the texts. Respectfully,
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 3 1:51 AM
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        Venerable Dahammadhiro,
        Thank you very much for the additional material on the particles. It
        may not be easy to recognize them in the texts.
        Respectfully,
        Nina.
        Op 2-aug-2006, om 3:12 heeft dhammadhiro het volgende geschreven:

        > There are 9 particles altogether to substitute possession meaning in
        > taddhita form: vii, sa, sii, ika, ii, ra, vantu, mantu, and .n. The
        > particle 'in' as you mentioned may be of Sanskrit sort.
        > The meaning of '.n' (or 'a' with stressing of first syllable)
        > particle is that
        > the particle '.n' is actually 'a' particle, but with a
        > specification that if the
        > first syllable of the word is 'lahu' or low stressing syllable (a,
        > i, and u),
        > that syllable has to be stressed (a as aa, i as e, and u as o)



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • madan tandon
        Dear Scot, Your questions are superb. Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at concentration that absorption. Pertaining to your
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 3 5:31 AM
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          Dear Scot,
          Your questions are superb. Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at concentration that absorption. Pertaining to your question
          ," I thought there must be other senses such that one could be in it while going thru one's day." Here is how yoJana is defined:

          yoJana = n. joining , yoking , harnessing Pa1rGr2. Hariv. ; that which is yoked or harnessed , a team , vehicle (also applied to the hymns and prayers addressed to the gods) RV. ; course , path ib. ; (sometimes m. ; ifc. f. %{A}) a stage or Yojana (i.e. a distance traversed in one harnessing or without unyoking ; esp. a partic. measure of distance , sometimes regarded as equal to 4 or 5 English miles , but more correctly = 4 Kros3as or about 9 miles ; according to other calculations = 2 1/2 English miles , and according to some = 8 Kros3as) RV. &c. &c. ; instigation , stimulation Sa1h. ; mental concentration , abstraction , directing the thoughts to one point (= %{yoga}) Up. ; the Supreme Spirit of the Universe (= %{paramA7tman}) L. ; a finger L. ; n. and (%{A}) f. use , application , arrangement , preparation RV. Ka1tyS3r. MBh. Sa1h. ; erecting , constructing , building Ra1jat. Katha1s. ; junction , union , combination Sa1h. Veda7ntas. ; (%{A}) f. application of the sense
          of a passage , grammatical construction S3am2k.

          truly,
          biloo_5

          -------------------------------

          Scott Duncan <scduncan@...> wrote: Hello,

          P: "This is ver[y] interesting: could there be two possible senses of
          jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)?

          "How can we know the context?"

          Forgive me, I'm a total beginner and so can't say much. I think I was
          looking at the Paali because I can't makes sense of what seemed to be
          the instruction to remain in "jhaana" all the time. Understood as
          "jhaana" as the meditative absorption, which I also understand
          precludes discursive thought when so absorbed, I couldn't understand.
          I thought there must be other senses of jhaana, then, such that one
          could be "in" it while going through one's day.

          Sincerely,

          Scott.






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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Scott Duncan
          Dear Biloo, B: Your questions are superb. Thank you so much. I appreciate the answers even more! B: Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 3 7:40 PM
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            Dear Biloo,

            B: "Your questions are superb."

            Thank you so much. I appreciate the answers even more!

            B: "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
            concentration that absorption."

            So, this would mean that one could maintain "concentration" without
            having to remain "absorbed."

            B: "Pertaining to your question," I thought there must be other
            senses such that one could be in it while going thru one's day."
            Here is how yoJana is defined:

            yoJana = n. joining , yoking , harnessing Pa1rGr2. Hariv. ; that
            which is yoked or harnessed , a team , vehicle (also applied to the
            hymns and prayers addressed to the gods) RV. ; course , path ib. ;
            (sometimes m. ; ifc. f. %{A}) a stage or Yojana (i.e. a distance
            traversed in one harnessing or without unyoking ; esp. a partic.
            measure of distance , sometimes regarded as equal to 4 or 5 English
            miles , but more correctly = 4 Kros3as or about 9 miles ; according to
            other calculations = 2 1/2 English miles , and according to some = 8
            Kros3as) RV. &c. &c. ; instigation , stimulation Sa1h. ; mental
            concentration , abstraction , directing the thoughts to one point (=
            %{yoga}) Up. ; the Supreme Spirit of the Universe (= %{paramA7tman})
            L. ; a finger L. ; n. and (%{A}) f. use , application , arrangement ,
            preparation RV. Ka1tyS3r. MBh. Sa1h. ; erecting , constructing ,
            building Ra1jat. Katha1s. ; junction , union , combination Sa1h.
            Veda7ntas. ; (%{A}) f. application of the sense of a passage,
            grammatical construction S3am2k."

            Thank you. How does one reconcile the two different words? How much
            of the sanskrit does the cognate contain, if you know what I mean?
            That is, how much of the meaning of the cognate is one to read into
            the meaning of the derivative? It does seem to help one fix the
            meaning, in this case, in a way that makes sense: one can concentrate
            and carry on living and thinking much more sensibly than can one while
            deeply absorbed in one of the jhaana-states. Is the sense, then, more
            like that of sati or satipa.t.thaana?

            Sincerely,

            Scott.
          • Ong Yong Peng
            Dear Biloo and Scott, I am very reluctant to understand jhaana from yogana, not matter how closely related they are. As I mentioned earlier, the Sanskrit
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 4 5:35 AM
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              Dear Biloo and Scott,

              I am very reluctant to understand jhaana from yogana, not matter how
              closely related they are. As I mentioned earlier, the Sanskrit
              equivalent of jhaana is dhyana, a word which can be found in any
              good Sankrit dictionary.

              dhyana [ dhyâ.ana ] n. meditation; religious contemplation: -
              tatpara, a. lost in thought; -dhîra, a. absorbed in thought; -para,
              a. id.; -yoga, m. deep meditation, religious ab sorption; -vat, a.
              devoted to religious medi tation; -sthita, pp. absorbed in thought.

              dhyāna n. meditation, thought, reflection, (esp.) profound and
              abstract religious meditation.

              Ven. Dhammadhiro and Nina had both given good explanations of jhaana
              in earlier mails. The English word 'absorption' is only a word of
              choice for some English translators. I would leave jhaana
              untranslated as 'jhana'.

              metta,
              Yong Peng.


              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Scott Duncan wrote:

              "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
              concentration that absorption."
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Scott and Biloo, For a word derivation we cannot leave out the *h* from jhaana. it is not jana. Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 4 6:36 AM
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                Dear Scott and Biloo,
                For a word derivation we cannot leave out the *h* from jhaana. it is
                not jana.
                Nina.
                Op 4-aug-2006, om 4:40 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven:

                > B: "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                > concentration that absorption."



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • madan tandon
                Dear Yong Pong, May I pose a candid question, I wonder if you can read Devnagri scritp Yogana as you described and used in your comments is quiet different
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 4 6:37 AM
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                  Dear Yong Pong,
                  May I pose a candid question, "I wonder if you can read Devnagri scritp"

                  Yogana as you described and used in your comments is quiet different than yoJana. I have already given the definition of yoJana.

                  Yogana as you included in your reply has a GA sound whereas yoJana has a JA sound, meaning of "Yogana" and "yoJana" are quite different.

                  truly
                  biloo

                  =================

                  Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@...> wrote: Dear Biloo and Scott,

                  I am very reluctant to understand jhaana from yogana, not matter how
                  closely related they are. As I mentioned earlier, the Sanskrit
                  equivalent of jhaana is dhyana, a word which can be found in any
                  good Sankrit dictionary.

                  dhyana [ dhyâ.ana ] n. meditation; religious contemplation: -
                  tatpara, a. lost in thought; -dhîra, a. absorbed in thought; -para,
                  a. id.; -yoga, m. deep meditation, religious ab sorption; -vat, a.
                  devoted to religious medi tation; -sthita, pp. absorbed in thought.

                  dhyāna n. meditation, thought, reflection, (esp.) profound and
                  abstract religious meditation.

                  Ven. Dhammadhiro and Nina had both given good explanations of jhaana
                  in earlier mails. The English word 'absorption' is only a word of
                  choice for some English translators. I would leave jhaana
                  untranslated as 'jhana'.

                  metta,
                  Yong Peng.

                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Scott Duncan wrote:

                  "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                  concentration that absorption."






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                • Stephen Hodge
                  ... What is this yoJana ? In the style of transcription which uses a capital J, the J stands for ~n (n tilde). But there is no such Sanskrit word. Do you
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 4 5:52 PM
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                    madan tandon wrote:

                    > meaning of "Yogana" and "yoJana" are quite different.
                    What is this "yoJana" ? In the style of transcription which uses a capital
                    J, the J stands for ~n (n tilde). But there is no such Sanskrit word. Do
                    you mean YuJjAna ? But in any case, you are mistaken: jhaana/dhyaana is not
                    and cannot be cognate with any derivatives from the YUJ root.

                    Best wishes,
                    Stephen Hodge
                  • madan tandon
                    Dear Nina, My attempt was not to remove H from pali Jhanna.: but rather to present one of the many sanskrit cognates. Hence the sanskrit word brought
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 5 6:43 AM
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                      Dear Nina,
                      My attempt was not to remove "H" from pali "Jhanna.: but rather to present one of the many sanskrit cognates. Hence the sanskrit word brought forth was " yoJana

                      with thanks,
                      biloo
                      ----------------------------------------

                      Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote: Dear Scott and Biloo,
                      For a word derivation we cannot leave out the *h* from jhaana. it is
                      not jana.
                      Nina.
                      Op 4-aug-2006, om 4:40 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven:

                      > B: "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                      > concentration that absorption."

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                    • madan tandon
                      Dear Stephen. Your assertive and presumptuous statement that the there is no such sanskrit word as yoJana . My attempt was to differentiate the J sound
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 5 6:52 AM
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                        Dear Stephen.

                        Your assertive and presumptuous statement that the there is no such sanskrit word as "yoJana". My attempt was to differentiate the J sound from the G sound, as you may visualize from the devnagari alphabet.
                        My presenting of the sanskrit cognate yojana with a capital J was not attempt to show it from transcription point of view.
                        I have already posted the long definitions of 'YOJNA"
                        Yogna however is also a sanskrit word.

                        Hope that clarifies the matter

                        truly
                        biloo

                        Stephen Hodge <s.hodge@...> wrote: madan tandon wrote:

                        > meaning of "Yogana" and "yoJana" are quite different.
                        What is this "yoJana" ? In the style of transcription which uses a capital
                        J, the J stands for ~n (n tilde). But there is no such Sanskrit word. Do
                        you mean YuJjAna ? But in any case, you are mistaken: jhaana/dhyaana is not
                        and cannot be cognate with any derivatives from the YUJ root.

                        Best wishes,
                        Stephen Hodge






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