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Re: [Pali] Re: AN 1.6

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Venerable Dhammadhiro, Thank you, I profit from your explanation of taddhita. It is in Warder Lesson 25 9p. 252) but I had forgotten about it. I do not
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 1, 2006
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      Venerable Dhammadhiro,
      Thank you, I profit from your explanation of taddhita. It is in
      Warder Lesson 25 9p. 252) but I had forgotten about it.
      I do not understand yet: Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing
      of first syllable) particle which
      to represent meaning 'who has'.
      But I read in Warder the examples of -in, -mant, -vant denoting
      possession.
      Jhaana can be translated as contemplating. I just read in the Tiika
      to Visuddhimagga (Ch XVII, 92):
      <Lakkha.naaramma.nuupanijjhaanabhuutaana.m vitakkaadiina.m
      vitakkanaadivasena
      aaramma.na.m upagantvaa nijjhaana.m pekkhana.m, cintana.m vaa
      vitakkaadiina.myeva aave.niko
      byaapaaro upanijjhaayana.t.tho. >
      This also refers to the two kinds of jhaana in samatha (aaramma.na,
      the meditation subjects) and in vipassanaa (lakkha.na).
      Respectfully,
      Nina.
      Op 31-jul-2006, om 14:09 heeft dhammadhiro het volgende geschreven:

      > There is a wordform called 'taddhita' in Paali. there is many kind
      > of that
      > taddhita. Taddhita is a way to confine word/s by substitution of
      > particles. those particle have their meanings. one particle can
      > represent
      > many meanings or on contrary many particle can represent one
      > meaning.
      > Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing of first syllable)
      > particle which
      > to represent meaning 'who has'.
      > 'Jhaana.m assa atthiiti jhaano'
      > = the one who has jhaana is called jhaano (jhaano is in first singular
      > masculine derivation form, like nara to be naro).
      > jhana is a noun, but after in form of taddhita it become adjective to
      > qualify a noun and the gender is following on the noun it is hang at.
      >
      > besides above. I'd like to discuss about the meaning of jhaana. is
      > absorbtion the proper translation of it? in my view, jhaana is a
      > composing energy of mind attentiveness on one object. So, the
      > translation staring or contemplating is more agreeable than absorbing.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • dhammadhiro
      Dear Nina, There are 9 particles altogether to substitute possession meaning in taddhita form: vii, sa, sii, ika, ii, ra, vantu, mantu, and .n. The particle
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 1, 2006
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        Dear Nina,

        There are 9 particles altogether to substitute possession meaning in
        taddhita form: vii, sa, sii, ika, ii, ra, vantu, mantu, and .n. The
        particle 'in' as you mentioned may be of Sanskrit sort.
        The meaning of '.n' (or 'a' with stressing of first syllable) particle is that
        the particle '.n' is actually 'a' particle, but with a specification that if the
        first syllable of the word is 'lahu' or low stressing syllable (a, i, and u),
        that syllable has to be stressed (a as aa, i as e, and u as o)
        ex. subhaago assa atthiiti sobhaago = good proportion is belonging to
        him, so he is called sobhaaga one who has good proportion. For if first
        syllable that is 'garu' or high stressing already (aa, ii, uu, e, o, and [a i
        u] followed by consonant ending) stressing is no need anymore (like:
        saddho one who has faith (saddhaa assa atthiiti saddho).
        The stressing in first syllable is a USUAL way for particle containing '.n'.
        In other words, there are many words in this form which without
        stressing like 'sato' = one who has mindfulness (from 'sati') etc.
        So '.n' particle is not 'a' particle in ordinary.

        I'm glad you got something from the last posting.

        Mettacittena,
        Dhammadhiro

        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
        >
        > Venerable Dhammadhiro,
        > Thank you, I profit from your explanation of taddhita. It is in
        > Warder Lesson 25 9p. 252) but I had forgotten about it.
        > I do not understand yet: Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing
        > of first syllable) particle which
        > to represent meaning 'who has'.
        > But I read in Warder the examples of -in, -mant, -vant denoting
        > possession.
        > Jhaana can be translated as contemplating. I just read in the Tiika
        > to Visuddhimagga (Ch XVII, 92):
        > <Lakkha.naaramma.nuupanijjhaanabhuutaana.m vitakkaadiina.m
        > vitakkanaadivasena
        > aaramma.na.m upagantvaa nijjhaana.m pekkhana.m, cintana.m vaa
        > vitakkaadiina.myeva aave.niko
        > byaapaaro upanijjhaayana.t.tho. >
        > This also refers to the two kinds of jhaana in samatha (aaramma.na,
        > the meditation subjects) and in vipassanaa (lakkha.na).
        > Respectfully,
        > Nina.
        > Op 31-jul-2006, om 14:09 heeft dhammadhiro het volgende
        geschreven:
        >
        > > There is a wordform called 'taddhita' in Paali. there is many kind
        > > of that
        > > taddhita. Taddhita is a way to confine word/s by substitution of
        > > particles. those particle have their meanings. one particle can
        > > represent
        > > many meanings or on contrary many particle can represent one
        > > meaning.
        > > Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing of first syllable)
        > > particle which
        > > to represent meaning 'who has'.
        > > 'Jhaana.m assa atthiiti jhaano'
        > > = the one who has jhaana is called jhaano (jhaano is in first
        singular
        > > masculine derivation form, like nara to be naro).
        > > jhana is a noun, but after in form of taddhita it become adjective to
        > > qualify a noun and the gender is following on the noun it is hang at.
        > >
        > > besides above. I'd like to discuss about the meaning of jhaana. is
        > > absorbtion the proper translation of it? in my view, jhaana is a
        > > composing energy of mind attentiveness on one object. So, the
        > > translation staring or contemplating is more agreeable than
        absorbing.
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • libris
        Scott, This is ver interesting: could there be two possible senses of jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)? How can we know
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 2, 2006
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          Scott,

          This is ver interesting: could there be two possible senses of jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)?

          How can we know the context?

          Piya Tan

          --- Scott Duncan <scduncan@...> wrote:

          > Dear Dhammadhiro (Venerable?),
          >
          > D: "Let me try to answer your Q"
          >
          > Thanks.
          >
          > D: "There is a wordform called 'taddhita' in Paali. there is many
          > kind of that taddhita. Taddhita is a way to confine word/s by
          > substitution of particles. those particle have their meanings. one
          > particle can represent many meanings or on contrary many particle
          > can
          > represent one meaning. Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing
          > of
          > first syllable) particle which to represent meaning 'who has'.
          > 'Jhaana.m assa atthiiti jhaano'= the one who has jhaana is called
          > jhaano (jhaano is in first singular masculine derivation form, like
          > nara to be naro). jhana is a noun, but after in form of taddhita
          > it
          > become adjective to qualify a noun and the gender is following on
          > the
          > noun it is hang at."
          >
          > "Jhaano," then is an adjective in the vagga in question. It refers
          > to
          > bhikkhu. It is saying that one must "have" jhaana all the time. I
          > agree, there must be different senses or meanings to this jhaana
          > used
          > this way.
          >
          > Sincerely,
          >
          > Scott.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • Scott Duncan
          Hello, P: This is ver[y] interesting: could there be two possible senses of jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)? How can
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 2, 2006
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            Hello,

            P: "This is ver[y] interesting: could there be two possible senses of
            jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)?

            "How can we know the context?"

            Forgive me, I'm a total beginner and so can't say much. I think I was
            looking at the Paali because I can't makes sense of what seemed to be
            the instruction to remain in "jhaana" all the time. Understood as
            "jhaana" as the meditative absorption, which I also understand
            precludes discursive thought when so absorbed, I couldn't understand.
            I thought there must be other senses of jhaana, then, such that one
            could be "in" it while going through one's day.

            Sincerely,

            Scott.
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Venerable Dahammadhiro, Thank you very much for the additional material on the particles. It may not be easy to recognize them in the texts. Respectfully,
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 3, 2006
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              Venerable Dahammadhiro,
              Thank you very much for the additional material on the particles. It
              may not be easy to recognize them in the texts.
              Respectfully,
              Nina.
              Op 2-aug-2006, om 3:12 heeft dhammadhiro het volgende geschreven:

              > There are 9 particles altogether to substitute possession meaning in
              > taddhita form: vii, sa, sii, ika, ii, ra, vantu, mantu, and .n. The
              > particle 'in' as you mentioned may be of Sanskrit sort.
              > The meaning of '.n' (or 'a' with stressing of first syllable)
              > particle is that
              > the particle '.n' is actually 'a' particle, but with a
              > specification that if the
              > first syllable of the word is 'lahu' or low stressing syllable (a,
              > i, and u),
              > that syllable has to be stressed (a as aa, i as e, and u as o)



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • madan tandon
              Dear Scot, Your questions are superb. Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at concentration that absorption. Pertaining to your
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 3, 2006
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                Dear Scot,
                Your questions are superb. Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at concentration that absorption. Pertaining to your question
                ," I thought there must be other senses such that one could be in it while going thru one's day." Here is how yoJana is defined:

                yoJana = n. joining , yoking , harnessing Pa1rGr2. Hariv. ; that which is yoked or harnessed , a team , vehicle (also applied to the hymns and prayers addressed to the gods) RV. ; course , path ib. ; (sometimes m. ; ifc. f. %{A}) a stage or Yojana (i.e. a distance traversed in one harnessing or without unyoking ; esp. a partic. measure of distance , sometimes regarded as equal to 4 or 5 English miles , but more correctly = 4 Kros3as or about 9 miles ; according to other calculations = 2 1/2 English miles , and according to some = 8 Kros3as) RV. &c. &c. ; instigation , stimulation Sa1h. ; mental concentration , abstraction , directing the thoughts to one point (= %{yoga}) Up. ; the Supreme Spirit of the Universe (= %{paramA7tman}) L. ; a finger L. ; n. and (%{A}) f. use , application , arrangement , preparation RV. Ka1tyS3r. MBh. Sa1h. ; erecting , constructing , building Ra1jat. Katha1s. ; junction , union , combination Sa1h. Veda7ntas. ; (%{A}) f. application of the sense
                of a passage , grammatical construction S3am2k.

                truly,
                biloo_5

                -------------------------------

                Scott Duncan <scduncan@...> wrote: Hello,

                P: "This is ver[y] interesting: could there be two possible senses of
                jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)?

                "How can we know the context?"

                Forgive me, I'm a total beginner and so can't say much. I think I was
                looking at the Paali because I can't makes sense of what seemed to be
                the instruction to remain in "jhaana" all the time. Understood as
                "jhaana" as the meditative absorption, which I also understand
                precludes discursive thought when so absorbed, I couldn't understand.
                I thought there must be other senses of jhaana, then, such that one
                could be "in" it while going through one's day.

                Sincerely,

                Scott.






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              • Scott Duncan
                Dear Biloo, B: Your questions are superb. Thank you so much. I appreciate the answers even more! B: Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 3, 2006
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                  Dear Biloo,

                  B: "Your questions are superb."

                  Thank you so much. I appreciate the answers even more!

                  B: "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                  concentration that absorption."

                  So, this would mean that one could maintain "concentration" without
                  having to remain "absorbed."

                  B: "Pertaining to your question," I thought there must be other
                  senses such that one could be in it while going thru one's day."
                  Here is how yoJana is defined:

                  yoJana = n. joining , yoking , harnessing Pa1rGr2. Hariv. ; that
                  which is yoked or harnessed , a team , vehicle (also applied to the
                  hymns and prayers addressed to the gods) RV. ; course , path ib. ;
                  (sometimes m. ; ifc. f. %{A}) a stage or Yojana (i.e. a distance
                  traversed in one harnessing or without unyoking ; esp. a partic.
                  measure of distance , sometimes regarded as equal to 4 or 5 English
                  miles , but more correctly = 4 Kros3as or about 9 miles ; according to
                  other calculations = 2 1/2 English miles , and according to some = 8
                  Kros3as) RV. &c. &c. ; instigation , stimulation Sa1h. ; mental
                  concentration , abstraction , directing the thoughts to one point (=
                  %{yoga}) Up. ; the Supreme Spirit of the Universe (= %{paramA7tman})
                  L. ; a finger L. ; n. and (%{A}) f. use , application , arrangement ,
                  preparation RV. Ka1tyS3r. MBh. Sa1h. ; erecting , constructing ,
                  building Ra1jat. Katha1s. ; junction , union , combination Sa1h.
                  Veda7ntas. ; (%{A}) f. application of the sense of a passage,
                  grammatical construction S3am2k."

                  Thank you. How does one reconcile the two different words? How much
                  of the sanskrit does the cognate contain, if you know what I mean?
                  That is, how much of the meaning of the cognate is one to read into
                  the meaning of the derivative? It does seem to help one fix the
                  meaning, in this case, in a way that makes sense: one can concentrate
                  and carry on living and thinking much more sensibly than can one while
                  deeply absorbed in one of the jhaana-states. Is the sense, then, more
                  like that of sati or satipa.t.thaana?

                  Sincerely,

                  Scott.
                • Ong Yong Peng
                  Dear Biloo and Scott, I am very reluctant to understand jhaana from yogana, not matter how closely related they are. As I mentioned earlier, the Sanskrit
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
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                    Dear Biloo and Scott,

                    I am very reluctant to understand jhaana from yogana, not matter how
                    closely related they are. As I mentioned earlier, the Sanskrit
                    equivalent of jhaana is dhyana, a word which can be found in any
                    good Sankrit dictionary.

                    dhyana [ dhyâ.ana ] n. meditation; religious contemplation: -
                    tatpara, a. lost in thought; -dhîra, a. absorbed in thought; -para,
                    a. id.; -yoga, m. deep meditation, religious ab sorption; -vat, a.
                    devoted to religious medi tation; -sthita, pp. absorbed in thought.

                    dhyāna n. meditation, thought, reflection, (esp.) profound and
                    abstract religious meditation.

                    Ven. Dhammadhiro and Nina had both given good explanations of jhaana
                    in earlier mails. The English word 'absorption' is only a word of
                    choice for some English translators. I would leave jhaana
                    untranslated as 'jhana'.

                    metta,
                    Yong Peng.


                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Scott Duncan wrote:

                    "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                    concentration that absorption."
                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear Scott and Biloo, For a word derivation we cannot leave out the *h* from jhaana. it is not jana. Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
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                      Dear Scott and Biloo,
                      For a word derivation we cannot leave out the *h* from jhaana. it is
                      not jana.
                      Nina.
                      Op 4-aug-2006, om 4:40 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven:

                      > B: "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                      > concentration that absorption."



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • madan tandon
                      Dear Yong Pong, May I pose a candid question, I wonder if you can read Devnagri scritp Yogana as you described and used in your comments is quiet different
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
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                        Dear Yong Pong,
                        May I pose a candid question, "I wonder if you can read Devnagri scritp"

                        Yogana as you described and used in your comments is quiet different than yoJana. I have already given the definition of yoJana.

                        Yogana as you included in your reply has a GA sound whereas yoJana has a JA sound, meaning of "Yogana" and "yoJana" are quite different.

                        truly
                        biloo

                        =================

                        Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@...> wrote: Dear Biloo and Scott,

                        I am very reluctant to understand jhaana from yogana, not matter how
                        closely related they are. As I mentioned earlier, the Sanskrit
                        equivalent of jhaana is dhyana, a word which can be found in any
                        good Sankrit dictionary.

                        dhyana [ dhyâ.ana ] n. meditation; religious contemplation: -
                        tatpara, a. lost in thought; -dhîra, a. absorbed in thought; -para,
                        a. id.; -yoga, m. deep meditation, religious ab sorption; -vat, a.
                        devoted to religious medi tation; -sthita, pp. absorbed in thought.

                        dhyāna n. meditation, thought, reflection, (esp.) profound and
                        abstract religious meditation.

                        Ven. Dhammadhiro and Nina had both given good explanations of jhaana
                        in earlier mails. The English word 'absorption' is only a word of
                        choice for some English translators. I would leave jhaana
                        untranslated as 'jhana'.

                        metta,
                        Yong Peng.

                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Scott Duncan wrote:

                        "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                        concentration that absorption."






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                      • Stephen Hodge
                        ... What is this yoJana ? In the style of transcription which uses a capital J, the J stands for ~n (n tilde). But there is no such Sanskrit word. Do you
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
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                          madan tandon wrote:

                          > meaning of "Yogana" and "yoJana" are quite different.
                          What is this "yoJana" ? In the style of transcription which uses a capital
                          J, the J stands for ~n (n tilde). But there is no such Sanskrit word. Do
                          you mean YuJjAna ? But in any case, you are mistaken: jhaana/dhyaana is not
                          and cannot be cognate with any derivatives from the YUJ root.

                          Best wishes,
                          Stephen Hodge
                        • madan tandon
                          Dear Nina, My attempt was not to remove H from pali Jhanna.: but rather to present one of the many sanskrit cognates. Hence the sanskrit word brought
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 5, 2006
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                            Dear Nina,
                            My attempt was not to remove "H" from pali "Jhanna.: but rather to present one of the many sanskrit cognates. Hence the sanskrit word brought forth was " yoJana

                            with thanks,
                            biloo
                            ----------------------------------------

                            Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote: Dear Scott and Biloo,
                            For a word derivation we cannot leave out the *h* from jhaana. it is
                            not jana.
                            Nina.
                            Op 4-aug-2006, om 4:40 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven:

                            > B: "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                            > concentration that absorption."

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                          • madan tandon
                            Dear Stephen. Your assertive and presumptuous statement that the there is no such sanskrit word as yoJana . My attempt was to differentiate the J sound
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 5, 2006
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                              Dear Stephen.

                              Your assertive and presumptuous statement that the there is no such sanskrit word as "yoJana". My attempt was to differentiate the J sound from the G sound, as you may visualize from the devnagari alphabet.
                              My presenting of the sanskrit cognate yojana with a capital J was not attempt to show it from transcription point of view.
                              I have already posted the long definitions of 'YOJNA"
                              Yogna however is also a sanskrit word.

                              Hope that clarifies the matter

                              truly
                              biloo

                              Stephen Hodge <s.hodge@...> wrote: madan tandon wrote:

                              > meaning of "Yogana" and "yoJana" are quite different.
                              What is this "yoJana" ? In the style of transcription which uses a capital
                              J, the J stands for ~n (n tilde). But there is no such Sanskrit word. Do
                              you mean YuJjAna ? But in any case, you are mistaken: jhaana/dhyaana is not
                              and cannot be cognate with any derivatives from the YUJ root.

                              Best wishes,
                              Stephen Hodge






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