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Re: AN 1.6

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  • Scott Duncan
    Dear Dhammadhiro (Venerable?), D: Let me try to answer your Q Thanks. D: There is a wordform called taddhita in Paali. there is many kind of that
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 31, 2006
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      Dear Dhammadhiro (Venerable?),

      D: "Let me try to answer your Q"

      Thanks.

      D: "There is a wordform called 'taddhita' in Paali. there is many
      kind of that taddhita. Taddhita is a way to confine word/s by
      substitution of particles. those particle have their meanings. one
      particle can represent many meanings or on contrary many particle can
      represent one meaning. Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing of
      first syllable) particle which to represent meaning 'who has'.
      'Jhaana.m assa atthiiti jhaano'= the one who has jhaana is called
      jhaano (jhaano is in first singular masculine derivation form, like
      nara to be naro). jhana is a noun, but after in form of taddhita it
      become adjective to qualify a noun and the gender is following on the
      noun it is hang at."

      "Jhaano," then is an adjective in the vagga in question. It refers to
      bhikkhu. It is saying that one must "have" jhaana all the time. I
      agree, there must be different senses or meanings to this jhaana used
      this way.

      Sincerely,

      Scott.
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Venerable Dhammadhiro, Thank you, I profit from your explanation of taddhita. It is in Warder Lesson 25 9p. 252) but I had forgotten about it. I do not
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 1, 2006
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        Venerable Dhammadhiro,
        Thank you, I profit from your explanation of taddhita. It is in
        Warder Lesson 25 9p. 252) but I had forgotten about it.
        I do not understand yet: Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing
        of first syllable) particle which
        to represent meaning 'who has'.
        But I read in Warder the examples of -in, -mant, -vant denoting
        possession.
        Jhaana can be translated as contemplating. I just read in the Tiika
        to Visuddhimagga (Ch XVII, 92):
        <Lakkha.naaramma.nuupanijjhaanabhuutaana.m vitakkaadiina.m
        vitakkanaadivasena
        aaramma.na.m upagantvaa nijjhaana.m pekkhana.m, cintana.m vaa
        vitakkaadiina.myeva aave.niko
        byaapaaro upanijjhaayana.t.tho. >
        This also refers to the two kinds of jhaana in samatha (aaramma.na,
        the meditation subjects) and in vipassanaa (lakkha.na).
        Respectfully,
        Nina.
        Op 31-jul-2006, om 14:09 heeft dhammadhiro het volgende geschreven:

        > There is a wordform called 'taddhita' in Paali. there is many kind
        > of that
        > taddhita. Taddhita is a way to confine word/s by substitution of
        > particles. those particle have their meanings. one particle can
        > represent
        > many meanings or on contrary many particle can represent one
        > meaning.
        > Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing of first syllable)
        > particle which
        > to represent meaning 'who has'.
        > 'Jhaana.m assa atthiiti jhaano'
        > = the one who has jhaana is called jhaano (jhaano is in first singular
        > masculine derivation form, like nara to be naro).
        > jhana is a noun, but after in form of taddhita it become adjective to
        > qualify a noun and the gender is following on the noun it is hang at.
        >
        > besides above. I'd like to discuss about the meaning of jhaana. is
        > absorbtion the proper translation of it? in my view, jhaana is a
        > composing energy of mind attentiveness on one object. So, the
        > translation staring or contemplating is more agreeable than absorbing.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • dhammadhiro
        Dear Nina, There are 9 particles altogether to substitute possession meaning in taddhita form: vii, sa, sii, ika, ii, ra, vantu, mantu, and .n. The particle
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 1, 2006
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          Dear Nina,

          There are 9 particles altogether to substitute possession meaning in
          taddhita form: vii, sa, sii, ika, ii, ra, vantu, mantu, and .n. The
          particle 'in' as you mentioned may be of Sanskrit sort.
          The meaning of '.n' (or 'a' with stressing of first syllable) particle is that
          the particle '.n' is actually 'a' particle, but with a specification that if the
          first syllable of the word is 'lahu' or low stressing syllable (a, i, and u),
          that syllable has to be stressed (a as aa, i as e, and u as o)
          ex. subhaago assa atthiiti sobhaago = good proportion is belonging to
          him, so he is called sobhaaga one who has good proportion. For if first
          syllable that is 'garu' or high stressing already (aa, ii, uu, e, o, and [a i
          u] followed by consonant ending) stressing is no need anymore (like:
          saddho one who has faith (saddhaa assa atthiiti saddho).
          The stressing in first syllable is a USUAL way for particle containing '.n'.
          In other words, there are many words in this form which without
          stressing like 'sato' = one who has mindfulness (from 'sati') etc.
          So '.n' particle is not 'a' particle in ordinary.

          I'm glad you got something from the last posting.

          Mettacittena,
          Dhammadhiro

          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
          >
          > Venerable Dhammadhiro,
          > Thank you, I profit from your explanation of taddhita. It is in
          > Warder Lesson 25 9p. 252) but I had forgotten about it.
          > I do not understand yet: Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing
          > of first syllable) particle which
          > to represent meaning 'who has'.
          > But I read in Warder the examples of -in, -mant, -vant denoting
          > possession.
          > Jhaana can be translated as contemplating. I just read in the Tiika
          > to Visuddhimagga (Ch XVII, 92):
          > <Lakkha.naaramma.nuupanijjhaanabhuutaana.m vitakkaadiina.m
          > vitakkanaadivasena
          > aaramma.na.m upagantvaa nijjhaana.m pekkhana.m, cintana.m vaa
          > vitakkaadiina.myeva aave.niko
          > byaapaaro upanijjhaayana.t.tho. >
          > This also refers to the two kinds of jhaana in samatha (aaramma.na,
          > the meditation subjects) and in vipassanaa (lakkha.na).
          > Respectfully,
          > Nina.
          > Op 31-jul-2006, om 14:09 heeft dhammadhiro het volgende
          geschreven:
          >
          > > There is a wordform called 'taddhita' in Paali. there is many kind
          > > of that
          > > taddhita. Taddhita is a way to confine word/s by substitution of
          > > particles. those particle have their meanings. one particle can
          > > represent
          > > many meanings or on contrary many particle can represent one
          > > meaning.
          > > Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing of first syllable)
          > > particle which
          > > to represent meaning 'who has'.
          > > 'Jhaana.m assa atthiiti jhaano'
          > > = the one who has jhaana is called jhaano (jhaano is in first
          singular
          > > masculine derivation form, like nara to be naro).
          > > jhana is a noun, but after in form of taddhita it become adjective to
          > > qualify a noun and the gender is following on the noun it is hang at.
          > >
          > > besides above. I'd like to discuss about the meaning of jhaana. is
          > > absorbtion the proper translation of it? in my view, jhaana is a
          > > composing energy of mind attentiveness on one object. So, the
          > > translation staring or contemplating is more agreeable than
          absorbing.
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • libris
          Scott, This is ver interesting: could there be two possible senses of jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)? How can we know
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 2, 2006
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            Scott,

            This is ver interesting: could there be two possible senses of jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)?

            How can we know the context?

            Piya Tan

            --- Scott Duncan <scduncan@...> wrote:

            > Dear Dhammadhiro (Venerable?),
            >
            > D: "Let me try to answer your Q"
            >
            > Thanks.
            >
            > D: "There is a wordform called 'taddhita' in Paali. there is many
            > kind of that taddhita. Taddhita is a way to confine word/s by
            > substitution of particles. those particle have their meanings. one
            > particle can represent many meanings or on contrary many particle
            > can
            > represent one meaning. Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing
            > of
            > first syllable) particle which to represent meaning 'who has'.
            > 'Jhaana.m assa atthiiti jhaano'= the one who has jhaana is called
            > jhaano (jhaano is in first singular masculine derivation form, like
            > nara to be naro). jhana is a noun, but after in form of taddhita
            > it
            > become adjective to qualify a noun and the gender is following on
            > the
            > noun it is hang at."
            >
            > "Jhaano," then is an adjective in the vagga in question. It refers
            > to
            > bhikkhu. It is saying that one must "have" jhaana all the time. I
            > agree, there must be different senses or meanings to this jhaana
            > used
            > this way.
            >
            > Sincerely,
            >
            > Scott.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • Scott Duncan
            Hello, P: This is ver[y] interesting: could there be two possible senses of jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)? How can
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 2, 2006
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              Hello,

              P: "This is ver[y] interesting: could there be two possible senses of
              jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)?

              "How can we know the context?"

              Forgive me, I'm a total beginner and so can't say much. I think I was
              looking at the Paali because I can't makes sense of what seemed to be
              the instruction to remain in "jhaana" all the time. Understood as
              "jhaana" as the meditative absorption, which I also understand
              precludes discursive thought when so absorbed, I couldn't understand.
              I thought there must be other senses of jhaana, then, such that one
              could be "in" it while going through one's day.

              Sincerely,

              Scott.
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Venerable Dahammadhiro, Thank you very much for the additional material on the particles. It may not be easy to recognize them in the texts. Respectfully,
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 3, 2006
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                Venerable Dahammadhiro,
                Thank you very much for the additional material on the particles. It
                may not be easy to recognize them in the texts.
                Respectfully,
                Nina.
                Op 2-aug-2006, om 3:12 heeft dhammadhiro het volgende geschreven:

                > There are 9 particles altogether to substitute possession meaning in
                > taddhita form: vii, sa, sii, ika, ii, ra, vantu, mantu, and .n. The
                > particle 'in' as you mentioned may be of Sanskrit sort.
                > The meaning of '.n' (or 'a' with stressing of first syllable)
                > particle is that
                > the particle '.n' is actually 'a' particle, but with a
                > specification that if the
                > first syllable of the word is 'lahu' or low stressing syllable (a,
                > i, and u),
                > that syllable has to be stressed (a as aa, i as e, and u as o)



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • madan tandon
                Dear Scot, Your questions are superb. Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at concentration that absorption. Pertaining to your
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 3, 2006
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                  Dear Scot,
                  Your questions are superb. Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at concentration that absorption. Pertaining to your question
                  ," I thought there must be other senses such that one could be in it while going thru one's day." Here is how yoJana is defined:

                  yoJana = n. joining , yoking , harnessing Pa1rGr2. Hariv. ; that which is yoked or harnessed , a team , vehicle (also applied to the hymns and prayers addressed to the gods) RV. ; course , path ib. ; (sometimes m. ; ifc. f. %{A}) a stage or Yojana (i.e. a distance traversed in one harnessing or without unyoking ; esp. a partic. measure of distance , sometimes regarded as equal to 4 or 5 English miles , but more correctly = 4 Kros3as or about 9 miles ; according to other calculations = 2 1/2 English miles , and according to some = 8 Kros3as) RV. &c. &c. ; instigation , stimulation Sa1h. ; mental concentration , abstraction , directing the thoughts to one point (= %{yoga}) Up. ; the Supreme Spirit of the Universe (= %{paramA7tman}) L. ; a finger L. ; n. and (%{A}) f. use , application , arrangement , preparation RV. Ka1tyS3r. MBh. Sa1h. ; erecting , constructing , building Ra1jat. Katha1s. ; junction , union , combination Sa1h. Veda7ntas. ; (%{A}) f. application of the sense
                  of a passage , grammatical construction S3am2k.

                  truly,
                  biloo_5

                  -------------------------------

                  Scott Duncan <scduncan@...> wrote: Hello,

                  P: "This is ver[y] interesting: could there be two possible senses of
                  jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)?

                  "How can we know the context?"

                  Forgive me, I'm a total beginner and so can't say much. I think I was
                  looking at the Paali because I can't makes sense of what seemed to be
                  the instruction to remain in "jhaana" all the time. Understood as
                  "jhaana" as the meditative absorption, which I also understand
                  precludes discursive thought when so absorbed, I couldn't understand.
                  I thought there must be other senses of jhaana, then, such that one
                  could be "in" it while going through one's day.

                  Sincerely,

                  Scott.






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                • Scott Duncan
                  Dear Biloo, B: Your questions are superb. Thank you so much. I appreciate the answers even more! B: Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 3, 2006
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                    Dear Biloo,

                    B: "Your questions are superb."

                    Thank you so much. I appreciate the answers even more!

                    B: "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                    concentration that absorption."

                    So, this would mean that one could maintain "concentration" without
                    having to remain "absorbed."

                    B: "Pertaining to your question," I thought there must be other
                    senses such that one could be in it while going thru one's day."
                    Here is how yoJana is defined:

                    yoJana = n. joining , yoking , harnessing Pa1rGr2. Hariv. ; that
                    which is yoked or harnessed , a team , vehicle (also applied to the
                    hymns and prayers addressed to the gods) RV. ; course , path ib. ;
                    (sometimes m. ; ifc. f. %{A}) a stage or Yojana (i.e. a distance
                    traversed in one harnessing or without unyoking ; esp. a partic.
                    measure of distance , sometimes regarded as equal to 4 or 5 English
                    miles , but more correctly = 4 Kros3as or about 9 miles ; according to
                    other calculations = 2 1/2 English miles , and according to some = 8
                    Kros3as) RV. &c. &c. ; instigation , stimulation Sa1h. ; mental
                    concentration , abstraction , directing the thoughts to one point (=
                    %{yoga}) Up. ; the Supreme Spirit of the Universe (= %{paramA7tman})
                    L. ; a finger L. ; n. and (%{A}) f. use , application , arrangement ,
                    preparation RV. Ka1tyS3r. MBh. Sa1h. ; erecting , constructing ,
                    building Ra1jat. Katha1s. ; junction , union , combination Sa1h.
                    Veda7ntas. ; (%{A}) f. application of the sense of a passage,
                    grammatical construction S3am2k."

                    Thank you. How does one reconcile the two different words? How much
                    of the sanskrit does the cognate contain, if you know what I mean?
                    That is, how much of the meaning of the cognate is one to read into
                    the meaning of the derivative? It does seem to help one fix the
                    meaning, in this case, in a way that makes sense: one can concentrate
                    and carry on living and thinking much more sensibly than can one while
                    deeply absorbed in one of the jhaana-states. Is the sense, then, more
                    like that of sati or satipa.t.thaana?

                    Sincerely,

                    Scott.
                  • Ong Yong Peng
                    Dear Biloo and Scott, I am very reluctant to understand jhaana from yogana, not matter how closely related they are. As I mentioned earlier, the Sanskrit
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
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                      Dear Biloo and Scott,

                      I am very reluctant to understand jhaana from yogana, not matter how
                      closely related they are. As I mentioned earlier, the Sanskrit
                      equivalent of jhaana is dhyana, a word which can be found in any
                      good Sankrit dictionary.

                      dhyana [ dhyâ.ana ] n. meditation; religious contemplation: -
                      tatpara, a. lost in thought; -dhîra, a. absorbed in thought; -para,
                      a. id.; -yoga, m. deep meditation, religious ab sorption; -vat, a.
                      devoted to religious medi tation; -sthita, pp. absorbed in thought.

                      dhyāna n. meditation, thought, reflection, (esp.) profound and
                      abstract religious meditation.

                      Ven. Dhammadhiro and Nina had both given good explanations of jhaana
                      in earlier mails. The English word 'absorption' is only a word of
                      choice for some English translators. I would leave jhaana
                      untranslated as 'jhana'.

                      metta,
                      Yong Peng.


                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Scott Duncan wrote:

                      "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                      concentration that absorption."
                    • Nina van Gorkom
                      Dear Scott and Biloo, For a word derivation we cannot leave out the *h* from jhaana. it is not jana. Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
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                        Dear Scott and Biloo,
                        For a word derivation we cannot leave out the *h* from jhaana. it is
                        not jana.
                        Nina.
                        Op 4-aug-2006, om 4:40 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven:

                        > B: "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                        > concentration that absorption."



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • madan tandon
                        Dear Yong Pong, May I pose a candid question, I wonder if you can read Devnagri scritp Yogana as you described and used in your comments is quiet different
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
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                          Dear Yong Pong,
                          May I pose a candid question, "I wonder if you can read Devnagri scritp"

                          Yogana as you described and used in your comments is quiet different than yoJana. I have already given the definition of yoJana.

                          Yogana as you included in your reply has a GA sound whereas yoJana has a JA sound, meaning of "Yogana" and "yoJana" are quite different.

                          truly
                          biloo

                          =================

                          Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@...> wrote: Dear Biloo and Scott,

                          I am very reluctant to understand jhaana from yogana, not matter how
                          closely related they are. As I mentioned earlier, the Sanskrit
                          equivalent of jhaana is dhyana, a word which can be found in any
                          good Sankrit dictionary.

                          dhyana [ dhyâ.ana ] n. meditation; religious contemplation: -
                          tatpara, a. lost in thought; -dhîra, a. absorbed in thought; -para,
                          a. id.; -yoga, m. deep meditation, religious ab sorption; -vat, a.
                          devoted to religious medi tation; -sthita, pp. absorbed in thought.

                          dhyāna n. meditation, thought, reflection, (esp.) profound and
                          abstract religious meditation.

                          Ven. Dhammadhiro and Nina had both given good explanations of jhaana
                          in earlier mails. The English word 'absorption' is only a word of
                          choice for some English translators. I would leave jhaana
                          untranslated as 'jhana'.

                          metta,
                          Yong Peng.

                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Scott Duncan wrote:

                          "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                          concentration that absorption."






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                        • Stephen Hodge
                          ... What is this yoJana ? In the style of transcription which uses a capital J, the J stands for ~n (n tilde). But there is no such Sanskrit word. Do you
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
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                            madan tandon wrote:

                            > meaning of "Yogana" and "yoJana" are quite different.
                            What is this "yoJana" ? In the style of transcription which uses a capital
                            J, the J stands for ~n (n tilde). But there is no such Sanskrit word. Do
                            you mean YuJjAna ? But in any case, you are mistaken: jhaana/dhyaana is not
                            and cannot be cognate with any derivatives from the YUJ root.

                            Best wishes,
                            Stephen Hodge
                          • madan tandon
                            Dear Nina, My attempt was not to remove H from pali Jhanna.: but rather to present one of the many sanskrit cognates. Hence the sanskrit word brought
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 5, 2006
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                              Dear Nina,
                              My attempt was not to remove "H" from pali "Jhanna.: but rather to present one of the many sanskrit cognates. Hence the sanskrit word brought forth was " yoJana

                              with thanks,
                              biloo
                              ----------------------------------------

                              Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote: Dear Scott and Biloo,
                              For a word derivation we cannot leave out the *h* from jhaana. it is
                              not jana.
                              Nina.
                              Op 4-aug-2006, om 4:40 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven:

                              > B: "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                              > concentration that absorption."

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                            • madan tandon
                              Dear Stephen. Your assertive and presumptuous statement that the there is no such sanskrit word as yoJana . My attempt was to differentiate the J sound
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 5, 2006
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                                Dear Stephen.

                                Your assertive and presumptuous statement that the there is no such sanskrit word as "yoJana". My attempt was to differentiate the J sound from the G sound, as you may visualize from the devnagari alphabet.
                                My presenting of the sanskrit cognate yojana with a capital J was not attempt to show it from transcription point of view.
                                I have already posted the long definitions of 'YOJNA"
                                Yogna however is also a sanskrit word.

                                Hope that clarifies the matter

                                truly
                                biloo

                                Stephen Hodge <s.hodge@...> wrote: madan tandon wrote:

                                > meaning of "Yogana" and "yoJana" are quite different.
                                What is this "yoJana" ? In the style of transcription which uses a capital
                                J, the J stands for ~n (n tilde). But there is no such Sanskrit word. Do
                                you mean YuJjAna ? But in any case, you are mistaken: jhaana/dhyaana is not
                                and cannot be cognate with any derivatives from the YUJ root.

                                Best wishes,
                                Stephen Hodge






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