Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: AN 1.6

Expand Messages
  • Scott Duncan
    Dear Yong Peng, This is what I was referring to in the other post. Y: The word jhaana is a neuter noun, so jhaano is rather incorrect...unless, as in this
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 31, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Yong Peng,

      This is what I was referring to in the other post.

      Y: "The word jhaana is a neuter noun, so 'jhaano' is rather
      incorrect...unless, as in this case, arittajjhaana is used in the
      sense of an adjective qualifying bhikkhu, hence 'arittajjhaano'."

      If the adjective qualifies "bhikkhu" then this refers to the person
      who must keep something in mind, and perhaps not to total jhaana all
      the time.

      Sincerely,

      Scott.
    • Scott Duncan
      Dear Dhammadhiro (Venerable?), D: Let me try to answer your Q Thanks. D: There is a wordform called taddhita in Paali. there is many kind of that
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 31, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Dhammadhiro (Venerable?),

        D: "Let me try to answer your Q"

        Thanks.

        D: "There is a wordform called 'taddhita' in Paali. there is many
        kind of that taddhita. Taddhita is a way to confine word/s by
        substitution of particles. those particle have their meanings. one
        particle can represent many meanings or on contrary many particle can
        represent one meaning. Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing of
        first syllable) particle which to represent meaning 'who has'.
        'Jhaana.m assa atthiiti jhaano'= the one who has jhaana is called
        jhaano (jhaano is in first singular masculine derivation form, like
        nara to be naro). jhana is a noun, but after in form of taddhita it
        become adjective to qualify a noun and the gender is following on the
        noun it is hang at."

        "Jhaano," then is an adjective in the vagga in question. It refers to
        bhikkhu. It is saying that one must "have" jhaana all the time. I
        agree, there must be different senses or meanings to this jhaana used
        this way.

        Sincerely,

        Scott.
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Venerable Dhammadhiro, Thank you, I profit from your explanation of taddhita. It is in Warder Lesson 25 9p. 252) but I had forgotten about it. I do not
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 1, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Venerable Dhammadhiro,
          Thank you, I profit from your explanation of taddhita. It is in
          Warder Lesson 25 9p. 252) but I had forgotten about it.
          I do not understand yet: Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing
          of first syllable) particle which
          to represent meaning 'who has'.
          But I read in Warder the examples of -in, -mant, -vant denoting
          possession.
          Jhaana can be translated as contemplating. I just read in the Tiika
          to Visuddhimagga (Ch XVII, 92):
          <Lakkha.naaramma.nuupanijjhaanabhuutaana.m vitakkaadiina.m
          vitakkanaadivasena
          aaramma.na.m upagantvaa nijjhaana.m pekkhana.m, cintana.m vaa
          vitakkaadiina.myeva aave.niko
          byaapaaro upanijjhaayana.t.tho. >
          This also refers to the two kinds of jhaana in samatha (aaramma.na,
          the meditation subjects) and in vipassanaa (lakkha.na).
          Respectfully,
          Nina.
          Op 31-jul-2006, om 14:09 heeft dhammadhiro het volgende geschreven:

          > There is a wordform called 'taddhita' in Paali. there is many kind
          > of that
          > taddhita. Taddhita is a way to confine word/s by substitution of
          > particles. those particle have their meanings. one particle can
          > represent
          > many meanings or on contrary many particle can represent one
          > meaning.
          > Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing of first syllable)
          > particle which
          > to represent meaning 'who has'.
          > 'Jhaana.m assa atthiiti jhaano'
          > = the one who has jhaana is called jhaano (jhaano is in first singular
          > masculine derivation form, like nara to be naro).
          > jhana is a noun, but after in form of taddhita it become adjective to
          > qualify a noun and the gender is following on the noun it is hang at.
          >
          > besides above. I'd like to discuss about the meaning of jhaana. is
          > absorbtion the proper translation of it? in my view, jhaana is a
          > composing energy of mind attentiveness on one object. So, the
          > translation staring or contemplating is more agreeable than absorbing.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • dhammadhiro
          Dear Nina, There are 9 particles altogether to substitute possession meaning in taddhita form: vii, sa, sii, ika, ii, ra, vantu, mantu, and .n. The particle
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 1, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Nina,

            There are 9 particles altogether to substitute possession meaning in
            taddhita form: vii, sa, sii, ika, ii, ra, vantu, mantu, and .n. The
            particle 'in' as you mentioned may be of Sanskrit sort.
            The meaning of '.n' (or 'a' with stressing of first syllable) particle is that
            the particle '.n' is actually 'a' particle, but with a specification that if the
            first syllable of the word is 'lahu' or low stressing syllable (a, i, and u),
            that syllable has to be stressed (a as aa, i as e, and u as o)
            ex. subhaago assa atthiiti sobhaago = good proportion is belonging to
            him, so he is called sobhaaga one who has good proportion. For if first
            syllable that is 'garu' or high stressing already (aa, ii, uu, e, o, and [a i
            u] followed by consonant ending) stressing is no need anymore (like:
            saddho one who has faith (saddhaa assa atthiiti saddho).
            The stressing in first syllable is a USUAL way for particle containing '.n'.
            In other words, there are many words in this form which without
            stressing like 'sato' = one who has mindfulness (from 'sati') etc.
            So '.n' particle is not 'a' particle in ordinary.

            I'm glad you got something from the last posting.

            Mettacittena,
            Dhammadhiro

            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
            >
            > Venerable Dhammadhiro,
            > Thank you, I profit from your explanation of taddhita. It is in
            > Warder Lesson 25 9p. 252) but I had forgotten about it.
            > I do not understand yet: Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing
            > of first syllable) particle which
            > to represent meaning 'who has'.
            > But I read in Warder the examples of -in, -mant, -vant denoting
            > possession.
            > Jhaana can be translated as contemplating. I just read in the Tiika
            > to Visuddhimagga (Ch XVII, 92):
            > <Lakkha.naaramma.nuupanijjhaanabhuutaana.m vitakkaadiina.m
            > vitakkanaadivasena
            > aaramma.na.m upagantvaa nijjhaana.m pekkhana.m, cintana.m vaa
            > vitakkaadiina.myeva aave.niko
            > byaapaaro upanijjhaayana.t.tho. >
            > This also refers to the two kinds of jhaana in samatha (aaramma.na,
            > the meditation subjects) and in vipassanaa (lakkha.na).
            > Respectfully,
            > Nina.
            > Op 31-jul-2006, om 14:09 heeft dhammadhiro het volgende
            geschreven:
            >
            > > There is a wordform called 'taddhita' in Paali. there is many kind
            > > of that
            > > taddhita. Taddhita is a way to confine word/s by substitution of
            > > particles. those particle have their meanings. one particle can
            > > represent
            > > many meanings or on contrary many particle can represent one
            > > meaning.
            > > Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing of first syllable)
            > > particle which
            > > to represent meaning 'who has'.
            > > 'Jhaana.m assa atthiiti jhaano'
            > > = the one who has jhaana is called jhaano (jhaano is in first
            singular
            > > masculine derivation form, like nara to be naro).
            > > jhana is a noun, but after in form of taddhita it become adjective to
            > > qualify a noun and the gender is following on the noun it is hang at.
            > >
            > > besides above. I'd like to discuss about the meaning of jhaana. is
            > > absorbtion the proper translation of it? in my view, jhaana is a
            > > composing energy of mind attentiveness on one object. So, the
            > > translation staring or contemplating is more agreeable than
            absorbing.
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • libris
            Scott, This is ver interesting: could there be two possible senses of jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)? How can we know
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 2, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Scott,

              This is ver interesting: could there be two possible senses of jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)?

              How can we know the context?

              Piya Tan

              --- Scott Duncan <scduncan@...> wrote:

              > Dear Dhammadhiro (Venerable?),
              >
              > D: "Let me try to answer your Q"
              >
              > Thanks.
              >
              > D: "There is a wordform called 'taddhita' in Paali. there is many
              > kind of that taddhita. Taddhita is a way to confine word/s by
              > substitution of particles. those particle have their meanings. one
              > particle can represent many meanings or on contrary many particle
              > can
              > represent one meaning. Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing
              > of
              > first syllable) particle which to represent meaning 'who has'.
              > 'Jhaana.m assa atthiiti jhaano'= the one who has jhaana is called
              > jhaano (jhaano is in first singular masculine derivation form, like
              > nara to be naro). jhana is a noun, but after in form of taddhita
              > it
              > become adjective to qualify a noun and the gender is following on
              > the
              > noun it is hang at."
              >
              > "Jhaano," then is an adjective in the vagga in question. It refers
              > to
              > bhikkhu. It is saying that one must "have" jhaana all the time. I
              > agree, there must be different senses or meanings to this jhaana
              > used
              > this way.
              >
              > Sincerely,
              >
              > Scott.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
              > Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
              > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
              > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
              > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
              > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest
              > or web only.
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Scott Duncan
              Hello, P: This is ver[y] interesting: could there be two possible senses of jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)? How can
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 2, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello,

                P: "This is ver[y] interesting: could there be two possible senses of
                jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)?

                "How can we know the context?"

                Forgive me, I'm a total beginner and so can't say much. I think I was
                looking at the Paali because I can't makes sense of what seemed to be
                the instruction to remain in "jhaana" all the time. Understood as
                "jhaana" as the meditative absorption, which I also understand
                precludes discursive thought when so absorbed, I couldn't understand.
                I thought there must be other senses of jhaana, then, such that one
                could be "in" it while going through one's day.

                Sincerely,

                Scott.
              • Nina van Gorkom
                Venerable Dahammadhiro, Thank you very much for the additional material on the particles. It may not be easy to recognize them in the texts. Respectfully,
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 3, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Venerable Dahammadhiro,
                  Thank you very much for the additional material on the particles. It
                  may not be easy to recognize them in the texts.
                  Respectfully,
                  Nina.
                  Op 2-aug-2006, om 3:12 heeft dhammadhiro het volgende geschreven:

                  > There are 9 particles altogether to substitute possession meaning in
                  > taddhita form: vii, sa, sii, ika, ii, ra, vantu, mantu, and .n. The
                  > particle 'in' as you mentioned may be of Sanskrit sort.
                  > The meaning of '.n' (or 'a' with stressing of first syllable)
                  > particle is that
                  > the particle '.n' is actually 'a' particle, but with a
                  > specification that if the
                  > first syllable of the word is 'lahu' or low stressing syllable (a,
                  > i, and u),
                  > that syllable has to be stressed (a as aa, i as e, and u as o)



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • madan tandon
                  Dear Scot, Your questions are superb. Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at concentration that absorption. Pertaining to your
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 3, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Scot,
                    Your questions are superb. Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at concentration that absorption. Pertaining to your question
                    ," I thought there must be other senses such that one could be in it while going thru one's day." Here is how yoJana is defined:

                    yoJana = n. joining , yoking , harnessing Pa1rGr2. Hariv. ; that which is yoked or harnessed , a team , vehicle (also applied to the hymns and prayers addressed to the gods) RV. ; course , path ib. ; (sometimes m. ; ifc. f. %{A}) a stage or Yojana (i.e. a distance traversed in one harnessing or without unyoking ; esp. a partic. measure of distance , sometimes regarded as equal to 4 or 5 English miles , but more correctly = 4 Kros3as or about 9 miles ; according to other calculations = 2 1/2 English miles , and according to some = 8 Kros3as) RV. &c. &c. ; instigation , stimulation Sa1h. ; mental concentration , abstraction , directing the thoughts to one point (= %{yoga}) Up. ; the Supreme Spirit of the Universe (= %{paramA7tman}) L. ; a finger L. ; n. and (%{A}) f. use , application , arrangement , preparation RV. Ka1tyS3r. MBh. Sa1h. ; erecting , constructing , building Ra1jat. Katha1s. ; junction , union , combination Sa1h. Veda7ntas. ; (%{A}) f. application of the sense
                    of a passage , grammatical construction S3am2k.

                    truly,
                    biloo_5

                    -------------------------------

                    Scott Duncan <scduncan@...> wrote: Hello,

                    P: "This is ver[y] interesting: could there be two possible senses of
                    jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)?

                    "How can we know the context?"

                    Forgive me, I'm a total beginner and so can't say much. I think I was
                    looking at the Paali because I can't makes sense of what seemed to be
                    the instruction to remain in "jhaana" all the time. Understood as
                    "jhaana" as the meditative absorption, which I also understand
                    precludes discursive thought when so absorbed, I couldn't understand.
                    I thought there must be other senses of jhaana, then, such that one
                    could be "in" it while going through one's day.

                    Sincerely,

                    Scott.






                    ---------------------------------
                    How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

                    ---------------------------------
                    Do you Yahoo!?
                    Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Scott Duncan
                    Dear Biloo, B: Your questions are superb. Thank you so much. I appreciate the answers even more! B: Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 3, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Biloo,

                      B: "Your questions are superb."

                      Thank you so much. I appreciate the answers even more!

                      B: "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                      concentration that absorption."

                      So, this would mean that one could maintain "concentration" without
                      having to remain "absorbed."

                      B: "Pertaining to your question," I thought there must be other
                      senses such that one could be in it while going thru one's day."
                      Here is how yoJana is defined:

                      yoJana = n. joining , yoking , harnessing Pa1rGr2. Hariv. ; that
                      which is yoked or harnessed , a team , vehicle (also applied to the
                      hymns and prayers addressed to the gods) RV. ; course , path ib. ;
                      (sometimes m. ; ifc. f. %{A}) a stage or Yojana (i.e. a distance
                      traversed in one harnessing or without unyoking ; esp. a partic.
                      measure of distance , sometimes regarded as equal to 4 or 5 English
                      miles , but more correctly = 4 Kros3as or about 9 miles ; according to
                      other calculations = 2 1/2 English miles , and according to some = 8
                      Kros3as) RV. &c. &c. ; instigation , stimulation Sa1h. ; mental
                      concentration , abstraction , directing the thoughts to one point (=
                      %{yoga}) Up. ; the Supreme Spirit of the Universe (= %{paramA7tman})
                      L. ; a finger L. ; n. and (%{A}) f. use , application , arrangement ,
                      preparation RV. Ka1tyS3r. MBh. Sa1h. ; erecting , constructing ,
                      building Ra1jat. Katha1s. ; junction , union , combination Sa1h.
                      Veda7ntas. ; (%{A}) f. application of the sense of a passage,
                      grammatical construction S3am2k."

                      Thank you. How does one reconcile the two different words? How much
                      of the sanskrit does the cognate contain, if you know what I mean?
                      That is, how much of the meaning of the cognate is one to read into
                      the meaning of the derivative? It does seem to help one fix the
                      meaning, in this case, in a way that makes sense: one can concentrate
                      and carry on living and thinking much more sensibly than can one while
                      deeply absorbed in one of the jhaana-states. Is the sense, then, more
                      like that of sati or satipa.t.thaana?

                      Sincerely,

                      Scott.
                    • Ong Yong Peng
                      Dear Biloo and Scott, I am very reluctant to understand jhaana from yogana, not matter how closely related they are. As I mentioned earlier, the Sanskrit
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Biloo and Scott,

                        I am very reluctant to understand jhaana from yogana, not matter how
                        closely related they are. As I mentioned earlier, the Sanskrit
                        equivalent of jhaana is dhyana, a word which can be found in any
                        good Sankrit dictionary.

                        dhyana [ dhyâ.ana ] n. meditation; religious contemplation: -
                        tatpara, a. lost in thought; -dhîra, a. absorbed in thought; -para,
                        a. id.; -yoga, m. deep meditation, religious ab sorption; -vat, a.
                        devoted to religious medi tation; -sthita, pp. absorbed in thought.

                        dhyāna n. meditation, thought, reflection, (esp.) profound and
                        abstract religious meditation.

                        Ven. Dhammadhiro and Nina had both given good explanations of jhaana
                        in earlier mails. The English word 'absorption' is only a word of
                        choice for some English translators. I would leave jhaana
                        untranslated as 'jhana'.

                        metta,
                        Yong Peng.


                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Scott Duncan wrote:

                        "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                        concentration that absorption."
                      • Nina van Gorkom
                        Dear Scott and Biloo, For a word derivation we cannot leave out the *h* from jhaana. it is not jana. Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear Scott and Biloo,
                          For a word derivation we cannot leave out the *h* from jhaana. it is
                          not jana.
                          Nina.
                          Op 4-aug-2006, om 4:40 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven:

                          > B: "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                          > concentration that absorption."



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • madan tandon
                          Dear Yong Pong, May I pose a candid question, I wonder if you can read Devnagri scritp Yogana as you described and used in your comments is quiet different
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dear Yong Pong,
                            May I pose a candid question, "I wonder if you can read Devnagri scritp"

                            Yogana as you described and used in your comments is quiet different than yoJana. I have already given the definition of yoJana.

                            Yogana as you included in your reply has a GA sound whereas yoJana has a JA sound, meaning of "Yogana" and "yoJana" are quite different.

                            truly
                            biloo

                            =================

                            Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@...> wrote: Dear Biloo and Scott,

                            I am very reluctant to understand jhaana from yogana, not matter how
                            closely related they are. As I mentioned earlier, the Sanskrit
                            equivalent of jhaana is dhyana, a word which can be found in any
                            good Sankrit dictionary.

                            dhyana [ dhyâ.ana ] n. meditation; religious contemplation: -
                            tatpara, a. lost in thought; -dhîra, a. absorbed in thought; -para,
                            a. id.; -yoga, m. deep meditation, religious ab sorption; -vat, a.
                            devoted to religious medi tation; -sthita, pp. absorbed in thought.

                            dhyāna n. meditation, thought, reflection, (esp.) profound and
                            abstract religious meditation.

                            Ven. Dhammadhiro and Nina had both given good explanations of jhaana
                            in earlier mails. The English word 'absorption' is only a word of
                            choice for some English translators. I would leave jhaana
                            untranslated as 'jhana'.

                            metta,
                            Yong Peng.

                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Scott Duncan wrote:

                            "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                            concentration that absorption."






                            ---------------------------------
                            Do you Yahoo!?
                            Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

                            ---------------------------------
                            Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Stephen Hodge
                            ... What is this yoJana ? In the style of transcription which uses a capital J, the J stands for ~n (n tilde). But there is no such Sanskrit word. Do you
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              madan tandon wrote:

                              > meaning of "Yogana" and "yoJana" are quite different.
                              What is this "yoJana" ? In the style of transcription which uses a capital
                              J, the J stands for ~n (n tilde). But there is no such Sanskrit word. Do
                              you mean YuJjAna ? But in any case, you are mistaken: jhaana/dhyaana is not
                              and cannot be cognate with any derivatives from the YUJ root.

                              Best wishes,
                              Stephen Hodge
                            • madan tandon
                              Dear Nina, My attempt was not to remove H from pali Jhanna.: but rather to present one of the many sanskrit cognates. Hence the sanskrit word brought
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 5, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Dear Nina,
                                My attempt was not to remove "H" from pali "Jhanna.: but rather to present one of the many sanskrit cognates. Hence the sanskrit word brought forth was " yoJana

                                with thanks,
                                biloo
                                ----------------------------------------

                                Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote: Dear Scott and Biloo,
                                For a word derivation we cannot leave out the *h* from jhaana. it is
                                not jana.
                                Nina.
                                Op 4-aug-2006, om 4:40 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven:

                                > B: "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                                > concentration that absorption."

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                ---------------------------------
                                See the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com. Check it out.

                                ---------------------------------
                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • madan tandon
                                Dear Stephen. Your assertive and presumptuous statement that the there is no such sanskrit word as yoJana . My attempt was to differentiate the J sound
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 5, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Dear Stephen.

                                  Your assertive and presumptuous statement that the there is no such sanskrit word as "yoJana". My attempt was to differentiate the J sound from the G sound, as you may visualize from the devnagari alphabet.
                                  My presenting of the sanskrit cognate yojana with a capital J was not attempt to show it from transcription point of view.
                                  I have already posted the long definitions of 'YOJNA"
                                  Yogna however is also a sanskrit word.

                                  Hope that clarifies the matter

                                  truly
                                  biloo

                                  Stephen Hodge <s.hodge@...> wrote: madan tandon wrote:

                                  > meaning of "Yogana" and "yoJana" are quite different.
                                  What is this "yoJana" ? In the style of transcription which uses a capital
                                  J, the J stands for ~n (n tilde). But there is no such Sanskrit word. Do
                                  you mean YuJjAna ? But in any case, you are mistaken: jhaana/dhyaana is not
                                  and cannot be cognate with any derivatives from the YUJ root.

                                  Best wishes,
                                  Stephen Hodge






                                  ---------------------------------
                                  Groups are talking. We´re listening. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups.

                                  ---------------------------------
                                  How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.