Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

AN 1.6

Expand Messages
  • Scott Duncan
    Dear All, There is a phrase, repeated in many of the stanzas of this sutta, which reads: ...arittajjhaano viharati... So far I ve come up with ani~ncamaana
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 30, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear All,

      There is a phrase, repeated in many of the stanzas of this sutta,
      which reads:

      "...arittajjhaano viharati..."

      So far I've come up with "ani~ncamaana" for the first part of the
      initial compound ("pursue earnestly," among other things). "Viharati"
      is "to stay, abide, dwell, sojourn."

      I need help with the -jjhaano- part of the compound. I think it is
      related, of course, to "jhaana" somehow. I'm aware that the term
      refers to "absorption" and a high state of concentration, also to
      burning away.

      May I please have some help? In particular, where can I look to learn
      about the suffix "o?"

      Scott.
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Scott, I hope the following points help: 1. AN1.6 refers to a vagga, which is a collection of suttas. In AN1, the suttas are only one stanza-long, if you
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 31, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Scott,

        I hope the following points help:

        1. AN1.6 refers to a vagga, which is a collection of suttas. In AN1,
        the suttas are only one stanza-long, if you like it. If you go
        through the entire nipata, you will find that it does make sense.
        Every sutta is simply one stanza, because it addresses the point. We
        can call it the "sufficiency test", if you like. Because of their
        lengths, the compilers did not give these suttas names, but collect
        them under various named vaggas instead.

        2. 'ari~ncamaana' is the negation of the present participle of
        ri~ncati, meaning "not abandoning", i.e. persevering or remaining
        (as in staying behind). In fact, 'ari~ncamaana' is synonymous
        to 'aritta', which is the past participle form of the same verb.
        Therefore, 'aritta' literally means persevered or remained. However,
        the usage of 'aritta' in the texts takes the meaning of empty, free,
        as in rittahattha (empty handed) and rittamu.t.thi (empty fist).

        The commentarial interpretation is: arittajjhaanoti atucchajjhaano
        apariccattajjhaano vaa. => aritta jhaana is atuccha (not
        empty/deserted) jhaana or apariccatta (not given up/abandoned)
        jhaana. So, it seems like 'aritta' can take more than one meaning.

        Probably Nina and other members like to relook at this:
        arittajjhaana = persevered in jhaana?

        3. The termination/case-ending 'o' in 'jhaano' means the
        noun 'jhaana' is in the nominative case. In English grammar, it
        means 'jhaana' is the subject of the sentence. The nominative case
        is usually discussed in the early chapters of a Pali grammar book.

        4. Jhaana is 'dhyaana' in Sanskrit, 'chan' in Chinese, 'seon' in
        Korean, and 'zen' in Japanese. The focus on jhaana had at one time
        become so important that an entire lineage/tradition of Buddhism is
        founded upon the practice, hence we have the proto-dhyaana school in
        India, and the chan, seon and zen schools in East Asia. There are
        even rumours that Ven Ajahn Chah's teachings, which some say
        emphasises on jhaana, is the Thai version of Zen.

        The PTS translates 'jhaana' as 'musing', which is probably the
        influence of Zen? ;-) (Btw, my pocket dictionary shows that "to
        muse" is "to ponder, reflect, meditate".)


        metta,
        Yong Peng.


        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Scott Duncan wrote:

        There is a phrase, repeated in many of the stanzas of this sutta,
        which reads:

        "...arittajjhaano viharati..."

        So far I've come up with "ani~ncamaana" for the first part of the
        initial compound ("pursue earnestly," among other
        things). "Viharati" is "to stay, abide, dwell, sojourn."

        I need help with the -jjhaano- part of the compound. I think it is
        related, of course, to "jhaana" somehow. I'm aware that the term
        refers to "absorption" and a high state of concentration, also to
        burning away.

        May I please have some help? In particular, where can I look to
        learn about the suffix "o?"
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Scott, it would be better to give the whole sentence, otherwise we may split the words in the wrong way. There may be something else before aritta. Nina.
        Message 3 of 25 , Jul 31, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Scott,
          it would be better to give the whole sentence, otherwise we may split
          the words in the wrong way. There may be something else before aritta.
          Nina.
          Op 30-jul-2006, om 16:35 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven:

          > "...arittajjhaano viharati..."



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Yong Peng, There are two meanings of jhaana: Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8): Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena
          Message 4 of 25 , Jul 31, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Yong Peng,
            There are two meanings of jhaana:
            Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8):
            Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi
            (thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca
            aniccaadito (beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini
            upanijjhaayatha. Samatha~n ca vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti
            vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati maapamajjittha.
            -----
            In the sutta the Buddha said: jhaayathaa, meditate, but it refers to
            samatha and vipassana (the three lakkhana).Thus contemplate is also a
            good translation.
            Another stem associated with jhaana; to burn, burn away the hindrances.
            Nina.
            Op 31-jul-2006, om 11:21 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

            > The PTS translates 'jhaana' as 'musing', which is probably the
            > influence of Zen? ;



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ong Yong Peng
            Dear Nina and Scott, Nina, your question highlights a point which I have overlooked earlier. Scott is referring to the stock phrase which we have recently seen
            Message 5 of 25 , Jul 31, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Nina and Scott,

              Nina, your question highlights a point which I have overlooked
              earlier. Scott is referring to the stock phrase which we have
              recently seen in AN1.18: 'bhikkhu arittajjhaano viharati
              satthusaasanakaro ovaadapatikaro, amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m
              bhu~njati'

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/10487
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/10580

              The word jhaana is a neuter noun, so 'jhaano' is rather incorrect...
              unless, as in this case, arittajjhaana is used in the sense of an
              adjective qualifying bhikkhu, hence 'arittajjhaano'.

              What do you think? I wonder what other members think about this
              interesting point.


              metta,
              Yong Peng.


              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

              it would be better to give the whole sentence, otherwise we may
              split the words in the wrong way. There may be something else before
              aritta.

              > "...arittajjhaano viharati..."
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Yong Peng, I looked up the message to freshen up my memory. You are quite right, jhaano qualifies the bhikku who is not exempt from jhaana. Nina. ...
              Message 6 of 25 , Jul 31, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Yong Peng,
                I looked up the message to freshen up my memory. You are quite right,
                jhaano qualifies the bhikku who is not exempt from jhaana.
                Nina.
                Op 31-jul-2006, om 12:28 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

                > Dear Nina and Scott,
                >
                > Nina, your question highlights a point which I have overlooked
                > earlier. Scott is referring to the stock phrase which we have
                > recently seen in AN1.18: 'bhikkhu arittajjhaano viharati
                > satthusaasanakaro ovaadapatikaro, amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m
                > bhu~njati'
                >
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/10487
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/10580
                >
                > The word jhaana is a neuter noun, so 'jhaano' is rather incorrect...
                > unless, as in this case, arittajjhaana is used in the sense of an
                > adjective qualifying bhikkhu, hence 'arittajjhaano'.
                >
                >> .
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ong Yong Peng
                Dear Nina, thanks for the explanation. It never occur to me jhana encompasses vipassana (developing insight). I hope to study this aspect when time permits.
                Message 7 of 25 , Jul 31, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Nina,

                  thanks for the explanation. It never occur to me jhana encompasses
                  vipassana (developing insight). I hope to study this aspect when time
                  permits. Thanks again.

                  metta,
                  Yong Peng.

                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

                  There are two meanings of jhaana:
                  Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8):
                  Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi
                  (thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca
                  aniccaadito (beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini
                  upanijjhaayatha. Samatha~n ca vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti
                  vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati maapamajjittha.
                  -----
                  In the sutta the Buddha said: jhaayathaa, meditate, but it refers to
                  samatha and vipassana (the three lakkhana).Thus contemplate is also a
                  good translation.
                  Another stem associated with jhaana; to burn, burn away the hindrances.

                  > The PTS translates 'jhaana' as 'musing', which is probably the
                  influence of Zen?
                • dhammadhiro
                  Let me try to answer your Q There is a wordform called taddhita in Paali. there is many kind of that taddhita. Taddhita is a way to confine word/s by
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jul 31, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Let me try to answer your Q

                    There is a wordform called 'taddhita' in Paali. there is many kind of that
                    taddhita. Taddhita is a way to confine word/s by substitution of
                    particles. those particle have their meanings. one particle can represent
                    many meanings or on contrary many particle can represent one
                    meaning.
                    Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing of first syllable) particle which
                    to represent meaning 'who has'.
                    'Jhaana.m assa atthiiti jhaano'
                    = the one who has jhaana is called jhaano (jhaano is in first singular
                    masculine derivation form, like nara to be naro).
                    jhana is a noun, but after in form of taddhita it become adjective to
                    qualify a noun and the gender is following on the noun it is hang at.

                    besides above. I'd like to discuss about the meaning of jhaana. is
                    absorbtion the proper translation of it? in my view, jhaana is a
                    composing energy of mind attentiveness on one object. So, the
                    translation staring or contemplating is more agreeable than absorbing.
                    thanks

                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" <scduncan@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear All,
                    >
                    > There is a phrase, repeated in many of the stanzas of this sutta,
                    > which reads:
                    >
                    > "...arittajjhaano viharati..."
                    >
                    > So far I've come up with "ani~ncamaana" for the first part of the
                    > initial compound ("pursue earnestly," among other things). "Viharati"
                    > is "to stay, abide, dwell, sojourn."
                    >
                    > I need help with the -jjhaano- part of the compound. I think it is
                    > related, of course, to "jhaana" somehow. I'm aware that the term
                    > refers to "absorption" and a high state of concentration, also to
                    > burning away.
                    >
                    > May I please have some help? In particular, where can I look to learn
                    > about the suffix "o?"
                    >
                    > Scott.
                    >
                  • Scott Duncan
                    Dear Nina, Quite. N: it would be better to give the whole sentence, otherwise we may split the words in the wrong way. There may be something else before
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jul 31, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Nina,

                      Quite.

                      N: "it would be better to give the whole sentence, otherwise we may
                      split the words in the wrong way. There may be something else before
                      aritta.
                      "...arittajjhaano viharati..."

                      "Accharaasa.nghaatamattampi ce bhikkhave bhikkhu metta.m citta.m
                      aasevati aya.m vuccati bhikkhave bhikkhu arittajjhaano viharati,
                      satthusaasanakaro ovaadatikaro amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m bhu~njati."

                      Sincerely,

                      Scott.
                    • Scott Duncan
                      Dear Yong Peng, Y: I hope the following points help: Very much, thank you. Y: 1. AN1.6 refers to a vagga... Okay, I see how this is. Y: 2.
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jul 31, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Yong Peng,

                        Y: "I hope the following points help:"

                        Very much, thank you.

                        Y: "1. AN1.6 refers to a vagga..."

                        Okay, I see how this is.

                        Y: "2. 'ari~ncamaana' is the negation of the present participle of
                        ri~ncati, meaning "not abandoning", i.e. persevering or remaining
                        (as in staying behind). In fact, 'ari~ncamaana' is synonymous
                        to 'aritta', which is the past participle form of the same verb.
                        Therefore, 'aritta' literally means persevered or remained. However,
                        the usage of 'aritta' in the texts takes the meaning of empty, free,
                        as in rittahattha (empty handed) and rittamu.t.thi (empty fist)."

                        I did find "aritta." So, when "a" is a prefix it is always signifying
                        negation? There are likely exceptions, I suppose.

                        Y: "The commentarial interpretation is: arittajjhaanoti
                        atucchajjhaano apariccattajjhaano vaa. => aritta jhaana is atuccha
                        (not empty/deserted) jhaana or apariccatta (not given up/abandoned)
                        jhaana. So, it seems like 'aritta' can take more than one meaning."

                        This is what I was wondering, that is: multiple meanings.

                        Y: "3. The termination/case-ending 'o'..."

                        Thanks. What do you think of Duroiselle's introductory text?

                        Y: "4. Jhaana is 'dhyaana' in Sanskrit...The PTS translates 'jhaana'
                        as 'musing', which is probably the influence of Zen? ;-) (Btw, my
                        pocket dictionary shows that "to muse" is "to ponder, reflect,
                        meditate".)"

                        I was reading the text and couldn't quite see how one could be in a
                        true jhaana state while doing other things so I wanted to check the paali.

                        Sincerely,

                        Scott.
                      • Scott Duncan
                        Dear Yong Peng, This is what I was referring to in the other post. Y: The word jhaana is a neuter noun, so jhaano is rather incorrect...unless, as in this
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jul 31, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear Yong Peng,

                          This is what I was referring to in the other post.

                          Y: "The word jhaana is a neuter noun, so 'jhaano' is rather
                          incorrect...unless, as in this case, arittajjhaana is used in the
                          sense of an adjective qualifying bhikkhu, hence 'arittajjhaano'."

                          If the adjective qualifies "bhikkhu" then this refers to the person
                          who must keep something in mind, and perhaps not to total jhaana all
                          the time.

                          Sincerely,

                          Scott.
                        • Scott Duncan
                          Dear Dhammadhiro (Venerable?), D: Let me try to answer your Q Thanks. D: There is a wordform called taddhita in Paali. there is many kind of that
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jul 31, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dear Dhammadhiro (Venerable?),

                            D: "Let me try to answer your Q"

                            Thanks.

                            D: "There is a wordform called 'taddhita' in Paali. there is many
                            kind of that taddhita. Taddhita is a way to confine word/s by
                            substitution of particles. those particle have their meanings. one
                            particle can represent many meanings or on contrary many particle can
                            represent one meaning. Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing of
                            first syllable) particle which to represent meaning 'who has'.
                            'Jhaana.m assa atthiiti jhaano'= the one who has jhaana is called
                            jhaano (jhaano is in first singular masculine derivation form, like
                            nara to be naro). jhana is a noun, but after in form of taddhita it
                            become adjective to qualify a noun and the gender is following on the
                            noun it is hang at."

                            "Jhaano," then is an adjective in the vagga in question. It refers to
                            bhikkhu. It is saying that one must "have" jhaana all the time. I
                            agree, there must be different senses or meanings to this jhaana used
                            this way.

                            Sincerely,

                            Scott.
                          • Nina van Gorkom
                            Venerable Dhammadhiro, Thank you, I profit from your explanation of taddhita. It is in Warder Lesson 25 9p. 252) but I had forgotten about it. I do not
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 1, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Venerable Dhammadhiro,
                              Thank you, I profit from your explanation of taddhita. It is in
                              Warder Lesson 25 9p. 252) but I had forgotten about it.
                              I do not understand yet: Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing
                              of first syllable) particle which
                              to represent meaning 'who has'.
                              But I read in Warder the examples of -in, -mant, -vant denoting
                              possession.
                              Jhaana can be translated as contemplating. I just read in the Tiika
                              to Visuddhimagga (Ch XVII, 92):
                              <Lakkha.naaramma.nuupanijjhaanabhuutaana.m vitakkaadiina.m
                              vitakkanaadivasena
                              aaramma.na.m upagantvaa nijjhaana.m pekkhana.m, cintana.m vaa
                              vitakkaadiina.myeva aave.niko
                              byaapaaro upanijjhaayana.t.tho. >
                              This also refers to the two kinds of jhaana in samatha (aaramma.na,
                              the meditation subjects) and in vipassanaa (lakkha.na).
                              Respectfully,
                              Nina.
                              Op 31-jul-2006, om 14:09 heeft dhammadhiro het volgende geschreven:

                              > There is a wordform called 'taddhita' in Paali. there is many kind
                              > of that
                              > taddhita. Taddhita is a way to confine word/s by substitution of
                              > particles. those particle have their meanings. one particle can
                              > represent
                              > many meanings or on contrary many particle can represent one
                              > meaning.
                              > Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing of first syllable)
                              > particle which
                              > to represent meaning 'who has'.
                              > 'Jhaana.m assa atthiiti jhaano'
                              > = the one who has jhaana is called jhaano (jhaano is in first singular
                              > masculine derivation form, like nara to be naro).
                              > jhana is a noun, but after in form of taddhita it become adjective to
                              > qualify a noun and the gender is following on the noun it is hang at.
                              >
                              > besides above. I'd like to discuss about the meaning of jhaana. is
                              > absorbtion the proper translation of it? in my view, jhaana is a
                              > composing energy of mind attentiveness on one object. So, the
                              > translation staring or contemplating is more agreeable than absorbing.



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • dhammadhiro
                              Dear Nina, There are 9 particles altogether to substitute possession meaning in taddhita form: vii, sa, sii, ika, ii, ra, vantu, mantu, and .n. The particle
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 1, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Dear Nina,

                                There are 9 particles altogether to substitute possession meaning in
                                taddhita form: vii, sa, sii, ika, ii, ra, vantu, mantu, and .n. The
                                particle 'in' as you mentioned may be of Sanskrit sort.
                                The meaning of '.n' (or 'a' with stressing of first syllable) particle is that
                                the particle '.n' is actually 'a' particle, but with a specification that if the
                                first syllable of the word is 'lahu' or low stressing syllable (a, i, and u),
                                that syllable has to be stressed (a as aa, i as e, and u as o)
                                ex. subhaago assa atthiiti sobhaago = good proportion is belonging to
                                him, so he is called sobhaaga one who has good proportion. For if first
                                syllable that is 'garu' or high stressing already (aa, ii, uu, e, o, and [a i
                                u] followed by consonant ending) stressing is no need anymore (like:
                                saddho one who has faith (saddhaa assa atthiiti saddho).
                                The stressing in first syllable is a USUAL way for particle containing '.n'.
                                In other words, there are many words in this form which without
                                stressing like 'sato' = one who has mindfulness (from 'sati') etc.
                                So '.n' particle is not 'a' particle in ordinary.

                                I'm glad you got something from the last posting.

                                Mettacittena,
                                Dhammadhiro

                                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Venerable Dhammadhiro,
                                > Thank you, I profit from your explanation of taddhita. It is in
                                > Warder Lesson 25 9p. 252) but I had forgotten about it.
                                > I do not understand yet: Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing
                                > of first syllable) particle which
                                > to represent meaning 'who has'.
                                > But I read in Warder the examples of -in, -mant, -vant denoting
                                > possession.
                                > Jhaana can be translated as contemplating. I just read in the Tiika
                                > to Visuddhimagga (Ch XVII, 92):
                                > <Lakkha.naaramma.nuupanijjhaanabhuutaana.m vitakkaadiina.m
                                > vitakkanaadivasena
                                > aaramma.na.m upagantvaa nijjhaana.m pekkhana.m, cintana.m vaa
                                > vitakkaadiina.myeva aave.niko
                                > byaapaaro upanijjhaayana.t.tho. >
                                > This also refers to the two kinds of jhaana in samatha (aaramma.na,
                                > the meditation subjects) and in vipassanaa (lakkha.na).
                                > Respectfully,
                                > Nina.
                                > Op 31-jul-2006, om 14:09 heeft dhammadhiro het volgende
                                geschreven:
                                >
                                > > There is a wordform called 'taddhita' in Paali. there is many kind
                                > > of that
                                > > taddhita. Taddhita is a way to confine word/s by substitution of
                                > > particles. those particle have their meanings. one particle can
                                > > represent
                                > > many meanings or on contrary many particle can represent one
                                > > meaning.
                                > > Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing of first syllable)
                                > > particle which
                                > > to represent meaning 'who has'.
                                > > 'Jhaana.m assa atthiiti jhaano'
                                > > = the one who has jhaana is called jhaano (jhaano is in first
                                singular
                                > > masculine derivation form, like nara to be naro).
                                > > jhana is a noun, but after in form of taddhita it become adjective to
                                > > qualify a noun and the gender is following on the noun it is hang at.
                                > >
                                > > besides above. I'd like to discuss about the meaning of jhaana. is
                                > > absorbtion the proper translation of it? in my view, jhaana is a
                                > > composing energy of mind attentiveness on one object. So, the
                                > > translation staring or contemplating is more agreeable than
                                absorbing.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • libris
                                Scott, This is ver interesting: could there be two possible senses of jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)? How can we know
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 2, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Scott,

                                  This is ver interesting: could there be two possible senses of jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)?

                                  How can we know the context?

                                  Piya Tan

                                  --- Scott Duncan <scduncan@...> wrote:

                                  > Dear Dhammadhiro (Venerable?),
                                  >
                                  > D: "Let me try to answer your Q"
                                  >
                                  > Thanks.
                                  >
                                  > D: "There is a wordform called 'taddhita' in Paali. there is many
                                  > kind of that taddhita. Taddhita is a way to confine word/s by
                                  > substitution of particles. those particle have their meanings. one
                                  > particle can represent many meanings or on contrary many particle
                                  > can
                                  > represent one meaning. Jhaano is from '.N' (or 'a' with stressing
                                  > of
                                  > first syllable) particle which to represent meaning 'who has'.
                                  > 'Jhaana.m assa atthiiti jhaano'= the one who has jhaana is called
                                  > jhaano (jhaano is in first singular masculine derivation form, like
                                  > nara to be naro). jhana is a noun, but after in form of taddhita
                                  > it
                                  > become adjective to qualify a noun and the gender is following on
                                  > the
                                  > noun it is hang at."
                                  >
                                  > "Jhaano," then is an adjective in the vagga in question. It refers
                                  > to
                                  > bhikkhu. It is saying that one must "have" jhaana all the time. I
                                  > agree, there must be different senses or meanings to this jhaana
                                  > used
                                  > this way.
                                  >
                                  > Sincerely,
                                  >
                                  > Scott.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                  > Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                                  > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                                  > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                                  > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest
                                  > or web only.
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Scott Duncan
                                  Hello, P: This is ver[y] interesting: could there be two possible senses of jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)? How can
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 2, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hello,

                                    P: "This is ver[y] interesting: could there be two possible senses of
                                    jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)?

                                    "How can we know the context?"

                                    Forgive me, I'm a total beginner and so can't say much. I think I was
                                    looking at the Paali because I can't makes sense of what seemed to be
                                    the instruction to remain in "jhaana" all the time. Understood as
                                    "jhaana" as the meditative absorption, which I also understand
                                    precludes discursive thought when so absorbed, I couldn't understand.
                                    I thought there must be other senses of jhaana, then, such that one
                                    could be "in" it while going through one's day.

                                    Sincerely,

                                    Scott.
                                  • Nina van Gorkom
                                    Venerable Dahammadhiro, Thank you very much for the additional material on the particles. It may not be easy to recognize them in the texts. Respectfully,
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 3, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Venerable Dahammadhiro,
                                      Thank you very much for the additional material on the particles. It
                                      may not be easy to recognize them in the texts.
                                      Respectfully,
                                      Nina.
                                      Op 2-aug-2006, om 3:12 heeft dhammadhiro het volgende geschreven:

                                      > There are 9 particles altogether to substitute possession meaning in
                                      > taddhita form: vii, sa, sii, ika, ii, ra, vantu, mantu, and .n. The
                                      > particle 'in' as you mentioned may be of Sanskrit sort.
                                      > The meaning of '.n' (or 'a' with stressing of first syllable)
                                      > particle is that
                                      > the particle '.n' is actually 'a' particle, but with a
                                      > specification that if the
                                      > first syllable of the word is 'lahu' or low stressing syllable (a,
                                      > i, and u),
                                      > that syllable has to be stressed (a as aa, i as e, and u as o)



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • madan tandon
                                      Dear Scot, Your questions are superb. Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at concentration that absorption. Pertaining to your
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Aug 3, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Dear Scot,
                                        Your questions are superb. Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at concentration that absorption. Pertaining to your question
                                        ," I thought there must be other senses such that one could be in it while going thru one's day." Here is how yoJana is defined:

                                        yoJana = n. joining , yoking , harnessing Pa1rGr2. Hariv. ; that which is yoked or harnessed , a team , vehicle (also applied to the hymns and prayers addressed to the gods) RV. ; course , path ib. ; (sometimes m. ; ifc. f. %{A}) a stage or Yojana (i.e. a distance traversed in one harnessing or without unyoking ; esp. a partic. measure of distance , sometimes regarded as equal to 4 or 5 English miles , but more correctly = 4 Kros3as or about 9 miles ; according to other calculations = 2 1/2 English miles , and according to some = 8 Kros3as) RV. &c. &c. ; instigation , stimulation Sa1h. ; mental concentration , abstraction , directing the thoughts to one point (= %{yoga}) Up. ; the Supreme Spirit of the Universe (= %{paramA7tman}) L. ; a finger L. ; n. and (%{A}) f. use , application , arrangement , preparation RV. Ka1tyS3r. MBh. Sa1h. ; erecting , constructing , building Ra1jat. Katha1s. ; junction , union , combination Sa1h. Veda7ntas. ; (%{A}) f. application of the sense
                                        of a passage , grammatical construction S3am2k.

                                        truly,
                                        biloo_5

                                        -------------------------------

                                        Scott Duncan <scduncan@...> wrote: Hello,

                                        P: "This is ver[y] interesting: could there be two possible senses of
                                        jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)?

                                        "How can we know the context?"

                                        Forgive me, I'm a total beginner and so can't say much. I think I was
                                        looking at the Paali because I can't makes sense of what seemed to be
                                        the instruction to remain in "jhaana" all the time. Understood as
                                        "jhaana" as the meditative absorption, which I also understand
                                        precludes discursive thought when so absorbed, I couldn't understand.
                                        I thought there must be other senses of jhaana, then, such that one
                                        could be "in" it while going through one's day.

                                        Sincerely,

                                        Scott.






                                        ---------------------------------
                                        How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

                                        ---------------------------------
                                        Do you Yahoo!?
                                        Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Scott Duncan
                                        Dear Biloo, B: Your questions are superb. Thank you so much. I appreciate the answers even more! B: Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Aug 3, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Dear Biloo,

                                          B: "Your questions are superb."

                                          Thank you so much. I appreciate the answers even more!

                                          B: "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                                          concentration that absorption."

                                          So, this would mean that one could maintain "concentration" without
                                          having to remain "absorbed."

                                          B: "Pertaining to your question," I thought there must be other
                                          senses such that one could be in it while going thru one's day."
                                          Here is how yoJana is defined:

                                          yoJana = n. joining , yoking , harnessing Pa1rGr2. Hariv. ; that
                                          which is yoked or harnessed , a team , vehicle (also applied to the
                                          hymns and prayers addressed to the gods) RV. ; course , path ib. ;
                                          (sometimes m. ; ifc. f. %{A}) a stage or Yojana (i.e. a distance
                                          traversed in one harnessing or without unyoking ; esp. a partic.
                                          measure of distance , sometimes regarded as equal to 4 or 5 English
                                          miles , but more correctly = 4 Kros3as or about 9 miles ; according to
                                          other calculations = 2 1/2 English miles , and according to some = 8
                                          Kros3as) RV. &c. &c. ; instigation , stimulation Sa1h. ; mental
                                          concentration , abstraction , directing the thoughts to one point (=
                                          %{yoga}) Up. ; the Supreme Spirit of the Universe (= %{paramA7tman})
                                          L. ; a finger L. ; n. and (%{A}) f. use , application , arrangement ,
                                          preparation RV. Ka1tyS3r. MBh. Sa1h. ; erecting , constructing ,
                                          building Ra1jat. Katha1s. ; junction , union , combination Sa1h.
                                          Veda7ntas. ; (%{A}) f. application of the sense of a passage,
                                          grammatical construction S3am2k."

                                          Thank you. How does one reconcile the two different words? How much
                                          of the sanskrit does the cognate contain, if you know what I mean?
                                          That is, how much of the meaning of the cognate is one to read into
                                          the meaning of the derivative? It does seem to help one fix the
                                          meaning, in this case, in a way that makes sense: one can concentrate
                                          and carry on living and thinking much more sensibly than can one while
                                          deeply absorbed in one of the jhaana-states. Is the sense, then, more
                                          like that of sati or satipa.t.thaana?

                                          Sincerely,

                                          Scott.
                                        • Ong Yong Peng
                                          Dear Biloo and Scott, I am very reluctant to understand jhaana from yogana, not matter how closely related they are. As I mentioned earlier, the Sanskrit
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Dear Biloo and Scott,

                                            I am very reluctant to understand jhaana from yogana, not matter how
                                            closely related they are. As I mentioned earlier, the Sanskrit
                                            equivalent of jhaana is dhyana, a word which can be found in any
                                            good Sankrit dictionary.

                                            dhyana [ dhyâ.ana ] n. meditation; religious contemplation: -
                                            tatpara, a. lost in thought; -dhîra, a. absorbed in thought; -para,
                                            a. id.; -yoga, m. deep meditation, religious ab sorption; -vat, a.
                                            devoted to religious medi tation; -sthita, pp. absorbed in thought.

                                            dhyāna n. meditation, thought, reflection, (esp.) profound and
                                            abstract religious meditation.

                                            Ven. Dhammadhiro and Nina had both given good explanations of jhaana
                                            in earlier mails. The English word 'absorption' is only a word of
                                            choice for some English translators. I would leave jhaana
                                            untranslated as 'jhana'.

                                            metta,
                                            Yong Peng.


                                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Scott Duncan wrote:

                                            "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                                            concentration that absorption."
                                          • Nina van Gorkom
                                            Dear Scott and Biloo, For a word derivation we cannot leave out the *h* from jhaana. it is not jana. Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Dear Scott and Biloo,
                                              For a word derivation we cannot leave out the *h* from jhaana. it is
                                              not jana.
                                              Nina.
                                              Op 4-aug-2006, om 4:40 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven:

                                              > B: "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                                              > concentration that absorption."



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • madan tandon
                                              Dear Yong Pong, May I pose a candid question, I wonder if you can read Devnagri scritp Yogana as you described and used in your comments is quiet different
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Dear Yong Pong,
                                                May I pose a candid question, "I wonder if you can read Devnagri scritp"

                                                Yogana as you described and used in your comments is quiet different than yoJana. I have already given the definition of yoJana.

                                                Yogana as you included in your reply has a GA sound whereas yoJana has a JA sound, meaning of "Yogana" and "yoJana" are quite different.

                                                truly
                                                biloo

                                                =================

                                                Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@...> wrote: Dear Biloo and Scott,

                                                I am very reluctant to understand jhaana from yogana, not matter how
                                                closely related they are. As I mentioned earlier, the Sanskrit
                                                equivalent of jhaana is dhyana, a word which can be found in any
                                                good Sankrit dictionary.

                                                dhyana [ dhyâ.ana ] n. meditation; religious contemplation: -
                                                tatpara, a. lost in thought; -dhîra, a. absorbed in thought; -para,
                                                a. id.; -yoga, m. deep meditation, religious ab sorption; -vat, a.
                                                devoted to religious medi tation; -sthita, pp. absorbed in thought.

                                                dhyāna n. meditation, thought, reflection, (esp.) profound and
                                                abstract religious meditation.

                                                Ven. Dhammadhiro and Nina had both given good explanations of jhaana
                                                in earlier mails. The English word 'absorption' is only a word of
                                                choice for some English translators. I would leave jhaana
                                                untranslated as 'jhana'.

                                                metta,
                                                Yong Peng.

                                                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Scott Duncan wrote:

                                                "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                                                concentration that absorption."






                                                ---------------------------------
                                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                                Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

                                                ---------------------------------
                                                Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Stephen Hodge
                                                ... What is this yoJana ? In the style of transcription which uses a capital J, the J stands for ~n (n tilde). But there is no such Sanskrit word. Do you
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  madan tandon wrote:

                                                  > meaning of "Yogana" and "yoJana" are quite different.
                                                  What is this "yoJana" ? In the style of transcription which uses a capital
                                                  J, the J stands for ~n (n tilde). But there is no such Sanskrit word. Do
                                                  you mean YuJjAna ? But in any case, you are mistaken: jhaana/dhyaana is not
                                                  and cannot be cognate with any derivatives from the YUJ root.

                                                  Best wishes,
                                                  Stephen Hodge
                                                • madan tandon
                                                  Dear Nina, My attempt was not to remove H from pali Jhanna.: but rather to present one of the many sanskrit cognates. Hence the sanskrit word brought
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Aug 5, 2006
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Dear Nina,
                                                    My attempt was not to remove "H" from pali "Jhanna.: but rather to present one of the many sanskrit cognates. Hence the sanskrit word brought forth was " yoJana

                                                    with thanks,
                                                    biloo
                                                    ----------------------------------------

                                                    Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote: Dear Scott and Biloo,
                                                    For a word derivation we cannot leave out the *h* from jhaana. it is
                                                    not jana.
                                                    Nina.
                                                    Op 4-aug-2006, om 4:40 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven:

                                                    > B: "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                                                    > concentration that absorption."

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                                    ---------------------------------
                                                    See the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com. Check it out.

                                                    ---------------------------------
                                                    Do you Yahoo!?
                                                    Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • madan tandon
                                                    Dear Stephen. Your assertive and presumptuous statement that the there is no such sanskrit word as yoJana . My attempt was to differentiate the J sound
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Aug 5, 2006
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Dear Stephen.

                                                      Your assertive and presumptuous statement that the there is no such sanskrit word as "yoJana". My attempt was to differentiate the J sound from the G sound, as you may visualize from the devnagari alphabet.
                                                      My presenting of the sanskrit cognate yojana with a capital J was not attempt to show it from transcription point of view.
                                                      I have already posted the long definitions of 'YOJNA"
                                                      Yogna however is also a sanskrit word.

                                                      Hope that clarifies the matter

                                                      truly
                                                      biloo

                                                      Stephen Hodge <s.hodge@...> wrote: madan tandon wrote:

                                                      > meaning of "Yogana" and "yoJana" are quite different.
                                                      What is this "yoJana" ? In the style of transcription which uses a capital
                                                      J, the J stands for ~n (n tilde). But there is no such Sanskrit word. Do
                                                      you mean YuJjAna ? But in any case, you are mistaken: jhaana/dhyaana is not
                                                      and cannot be cognate with any derivatives from the YUJ root.

                                                      Best wishes,
                                                      Stephen Hodge






                                                      ---------------------------------
                                                      Groups are talking. We´re listening. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups.

                                                      ---------------------------------
                                                      How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.