Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: AN1.18.1-181 Aparaaccharaasa`nghaata Vagga (4/4)

Expand Messages
  • Ong Yong Peng
    Dear Nina and John, Nina, thanks for the correction to sabbaloke . a.t.thikasa~n~naa: I am fine with perception/awareness of a skeleton , only that
    Message 1 of 366 , Jul 16, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Nina and John,

      Nina, thanks for the correction to 'sabbaloke'.

      a.t.thikasa~n~naa: I am fine with "perception/awareness of a
      skeleton", only that 'recognition' is a function of the mind to me
      too.

      upasamaanussati: thanks for pointing out that 'upasama' refers to
      Nibbana. PTS has it as 'tranquillity', and I was thinking it in
      terms of 'samatha'. I inserted 'virtues' to indicate that the
      recollection(s) is about the qualities/attributes of the subject.
      And 'virtues' means _good_ qualities/attributes.

      amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m: I have looked back to the earlier
      messages, and I quote you "The meaning is: as a true bhikkhu he
      deserves the almsfood. If he would be a bad bhikkhu and takes the
      requisites, he is like a thief, it is said in the Visuddhimagga."
      And you did agree with "he eats the people's almsfood not (given) in
      vain". See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/10494

      I agree the meaning, in the spirit of the sutta, is about a monk (or
      nun) living up to the expectations of a monk (or nun). The PTS
      version of "to some purpose" is not an exact reflection of the Pali
      meaning. The meaning of "amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m" is
      roughly "almsfood not wasted", as in not given to a bad bhikkhu. To
      make it clearer in English, how about "the people's almsfood (he)
      eats (was) not (given away) vainly" or "the people's almsfood (he)
      eats (is) not (taken) vainly"?

      John, if "by recollection of our own virtuous conduct ... we can
      generate great joy in the world", then life would be very easy. I
      agree that 'siila' has a broader meaning than 'precept'. In the
      spirit of the sutta, no.496 is about a meditation subject, primarily
      concerned with establishing concentration, and I think the
      attributes/virtues of precepts is very appropriate. PTS has it
      as 'morality', which is fine with me. The commentary does not
      comment much, but please note that the word 'morality' itself can
      also be too broad. Furthermore, different cultures define morality
      differently, hence we have to be careful about using the word.


      metta,
      Yong Peng.


      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

      N: sabbaloke: is singular. In the whole world. Meant is; all
      conditioned dhammas, or the five khandhas.

      recognition of a skeleton: perception or awareness of a skeleton: it
      is a meditation subject.

      upasamaanussati: thanks for pointing out that 'upasama' refers to
      Nibbana. PTS has it as 'tranquillity', and I was thinking it in
      terms of 'samatha'. I inserted 'virtues' to indicate that the
      recollection(s) is about the qualities/attributes of the subject.
      And 'virtues' simply means _good_ qualities/attributes.

      > 92-101. ... upasamaanussati.m bhaveti... .
      > develops recollection of the virtues of calmness), [even for the
      > duration of a finger-snap..."]

      N: By this is meant nibbaana, and usually it is translated as peace.

      I read this in the Visuddhimagga.
      It sounds strange: the virtues of nibbaana.

      > Aya.m vuccati, bhikkhave - 'bhikkhu arittajjhaano viharati
      > satthusaasanakaro ovaadapatikaro, amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m
      > bhu~njati'.
      > Monks, such is said - 'The monk, engaged in (the practice of) jhana
      > (he) lives, complying with the Buddha's teachings and heeding the
      > advice, (he) eats the people's almsfood not given in vain'.

      N: aya.m: this is said, such sounds somewhat strange to me.

      as to: `not given in vain`: we discussed this before. PTS has: he
      eats it to some purpose. I see it from the monk's side. How virtuous
      is he?

      The Visuddhimagga Ch I, 127,128 speaks about the use of the
      requisites: <Although given by the laity, they actually belong to
      the Blessed One, because it is by the Blessed One that they are
      permitted. they can be used as master (by the arahat), as
      inheritance (by ariyans who are not arahats), use as a debt which is
      not allowable, and use as theft which is very wrong. That is when he
      is not virtuous. It all depends on the virtues or absence of virtues
      of the bhikkhu who receives them.

      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, John Kelly wrote:

      > * siilaanussati (f) recollection of precepts.
      > - siila (n) precept.

      I think that 'precept' is a too narrow translation of this very
      important word, and feel that it is better translated as 'virtuous
      conduct' or 'morality' or similar. It is by recollection of our own
      virtuous conduct that we can generate great joy in the world.
    • nina van gorkom
      Dear Yong Peng, I found this in my concepts file not sent. So, I send it now, though belated (29 July). I cannot remember whether I sent it, but I do not see
      Message 366 of 366 , Aug 17, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Yong Peng,

        I found this in my concepts file not sent. So, I send it now, though
        belated (29 July). I cannot remember whether I sent it, but I do not
        see it in the messages.

        Nina.
        op 07-06-2006 08:45 schreef Ong Yong Peng op pali.smith@...:

        please advise on the word: aruupasa~n~nii

        21-25. Saddhindriya.m bhaaveti... viiriyindriya.m bhaaveti...
        satindriya.m bhaaveti... samaadhindriya.m bhaaveti...
        pa~n~nindriya.m bhaaveti....



        ----------------------------------------------------------

        21-25. Saddhindriya.m bhaaveti... viiriyindriya.m bhaaveti...
        satindriya.m bhaaveti... samaadhindriya.m bhaaveti...
        pa~n~nindriya.m bhaaveti....
        ["O monks, if a monk] developed the faculty of faith (faculty of
        energy, faculty of mindfulness, faculty of concentration, faculty of
        wisdom), [even for the duration of a finger-snap, monks, such is
        said...]
        ------
        N: such a one is said...
        --------
        ----------------------------------------------------------

        31-37. Satisambojjha`nga.m bhaaveti... dhammavicayasambojjha`nga.m
        bhaaveti... viiriyasambojjha`nga.m bhaaveti... piitisambojjha`nga.m
        bhaaveti... passaddhisambojjha`nga.m bhaaveti...
        samaadhisambojjha`nga.m bhaaveti... upekkhaasambojjha`nga.m
        bhaaveti....

        ["O monks, if a monk] developed the mindfulness (doctrinal
        investigation,
        ------
        N: Investigation of Dhamma.
        -------

        38-45. Sammaadi.t.thi.m bhaaveti... sammaasa`nkappa.m bhaaveti...
        sammaavaaca.m bhaaveti... sammaakammanta.m bhaaveti... sammaa-
        aajiiva.m bhaaveti... sammaavaayaama.m bhaaveti... sammaasati.m
        bhaaveti... sammaasamaadhi.m bhaaveti....
        ["O monks, if a monk] developed right view (right intention, right
        speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right
        mindfulness, right concentration), [even for the duration of a
        finger-snap, monks, such is said...]
        -------
        N: sammaasa`nkappa.m: instead of right intention: right thinking.

        Intention is usually reserved for the term cetanaa, volition or kamma
        which
        is not a factor of the eightfold Path.
        Sammaadi.t.thi and sammaasa`nkappa are together called the wisdom of the
        eightfold Path. Sammaasa`nkappa is vitakka cetasika and it assists
        paññaa in
        'touching' or striking the object of understanding so that paññaa can
        know
        it.

        ----------------------------------------------------------

        46-53. Ajjhatta.m ruupasa~n~nii bahiddhaa ruupaani passati
        parittaani suva.n.nadubba.n.naani. 'Taani abhibhuyya jaanaami
        passaamii'ti -- eva.msa~n~nii hoti...
        ["O monks, if a monk, even for the duration of a finger-snap,]
        conscious of material forms arising from within,
        -------
        N: ajjhatta: I would eliminate arising, thus: within himself.
        I think materiality of his own body.
        He can develop kasinas taking as subject parts of his own body or
        external
        objects and then attain ruupa-jhaana.
        --------

        * appamaa.na (adj) endless, immeasurable, boundless, unlimited.
        ------
        N: here is allusion to the immaterial jhaanas, and here is the
        connection
        with the term aruupasa~n~nin.
        I consulted Dhammasangani Pali, 225: this has aruupasa~n~na. This is
        translated by PTS as: unconscious of any part of his corporeal self..

        The *a* is a negation of ruupasa~n~nin, not of ruupa, thus, not
        perceiving
        ruupa, materiality, of his own body. (See below the Atthasaalinii).
        The word unconscious seems misleading.
        ---------
        Ajjhatta.m aruupasa~n~nii bahiddhaa ruupaani passati parittaani
        suva.n.nadubba.n.naani. 'Taani abhibhuyya jaanaami passaamii'ti --
        eva.msa~n~nii hoti...

        ["O monks, if a monk, even for the duration of a finger-snap,]
        conscious of immaterial forms arising from within,
        ------
        N: immaterial forms: this is a contradiction.
        It could be: not conscious of material forms of his own body...
        This could be applied of all the following paras. These paras seem to
        refer
        to the colour kasinas of ruupa-jhaana.

        The Atthasaalinii, Co. to the Dhammasangani, explains (188) these
        'positions
        of mastery'.
        <'Not perceiving material quality in himself' means devoid of the
        perception
        of the preamble in his own bodily frame, either from not getting it,
        or from
        not wishing it.
        'Sees material qualities external to himself' means, from having
        performed
        the preamble externally in the eight devices, he sees with jhaana-
        eyes the
        external objects of these eight devices by virtue of the preamble and
        the
        extasy.
        'Limited' means not growing....
        Beautiful or ugly means pure or impure colours...>

        It is asked why it is said, Not perceiving material quality in
        himself, this
        is because his own body is not to be mastered, only external objects...
        *****
        Nina.






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.