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to Jim, Meanings of Dhamma

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  • nina van gorkom
    Dear Jim, please can you help me. a question about the last line of the Tiika with kaara.na: you gave me the text and Tiika: dhammo sabhaave
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 22, 2006
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      Dear Jim,
      please can you help me.
      a question about the last line of the Tiika with kaara.na:

      you gave me the text and Tiika:
      dhammo sabhaave pariyattipa~n~naa-,
      ~naayesu saccappakatiisu pu~n~ne.
      ~neyye gu.naacaarasamaadhisuupi,
      nissattataapattisu kaara.naado.

      [sabhaava, pariyatti, pa~n~naa, ~naaya, sacca, pakati, pu~n~na, ~neyya,
      gu.na, aacaara, samaadhi, nissattataa, aapatti, kaara.na, etc.]

      [from the .tiikaa:]
      784. sabhaavo avipariitattho. pariyatti pariyaapu.nitabbaa
      vinayaabhidhammasuttantaa. ~naayo yutti, sappa.tipadaa vaa maggaadayo.
      ~neyye sa"nkhaaravikaaralakkha.nanibbaanapa~n~nattivasena pa~ncavidhe
      ~neyye. nissattataa sattasabhaavassa abhaavataa. aapattiya.m ``paaraajika.m
      dhamma''nti. ``saha dhammena niggayhaa''tyaadiisu kaara.ne. aadinaa
      samaya~n~nuupamaahi.msaadiisupi dhammo.
      --------
      Now as to ``saha dhammena niggayhaa''tyaadiisu kaara.ne. aadinaa
      samaya~n~nuupamaahi.msaadiisupi dhammo.

      niggayhaa: censuring.
      censuring with dhamma?
      the simile of the right sacrifice that is with non-violence.
      Is this referring to the Kuttadanta sutta? Is this a meaning of dhamma? The
      true sacrifice that is dhamma, namely all kinds of kusala?
      I did not see elsewhere the meaning kaara.na for dhamma: cause.
      Then we have in the text kaara.naado and in the Tiika adinaa, what is the
      meaning?It seems to refer to censuring with dhamma?
      ---------
      Then there is: sa"nkhaaravikaaralakkha.nanibbaanapa~n~nattivasena
      pa~ncavidhe ~neyye.
      Is lakkha.na referring to the three general characteristics? And vikara to
      the changeability? I tried to see the five meanings of neyya.
      Thank you,
      Nina.
    • Jim Anderson
      Dear Nina, ... refuting with dhamma or refuting with reason are other possibilities. I was unable to find saha dhammena niggayha anywhere else on the
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 22, 2006
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        Dear Nina,

        > Now as to ``saha dhammena niggayhaa''tyaadiisu kaara.ne. aadinaa
        > samaya~n~nuupamaahi.msaadiisupi dhammo.
        >
        > niggayhaa: censuring.
        > censuring with dhamma?

        "refuting with dhamma" or "refuting with reason" are other
        possibilities. I was unable to find "saha dhammena niggayha" anywhere
        else on the CSCD disk but there is something that comes fairly close
        to it in the Mahaaparinibbaanasutta at D II 104:

        ...uppanna.m parappavaada.m saha dhammena suniggahiita.m niggahetvaa
        sappaa.tihaariya.m dhamma.m desessantiiti.

        At Sv II 552, Buddhaghosa explains "saha dhammena" with "sahetukena
        sakaara.nena vacanena".

        > the simile of the right sacrifice that is with non-violence.
        > Is this referring to the Kuttadanta sutta? Is this a meaning of
        dhamma? The
        > true sacrifice that is dhamma, namely all kinds of kusala?

        I'm not clear at all about the
        phrase "samaya~n~nuupamaahi.msaadiisupi dhammo". The "aado"
        in "kaara.naado" indicates that there are other meanings of "dhammo"
        besides the 14 given at Abh 784 and I would think that the .tiikaa is
        providing some of those additional meanings but "samaya~n~nuu" etc.
        just doesn't make a lot of sense here.

        > I did not see elsewhere the meaning kaara.na for dhamma: cause.

        Other lists may have "hetu" or "paccayo" instead.

        > Then we have in the text kaara.naado and in the Tiika adinaa, what
        is the
        > meaning?It seems to refer to censuring with dhamma?

        See above.

        > ---------
        > Then there is: sa"nkhaaravikaaralakkha.nanibbaanapa~n~nattivasena
        > pa~ncavidhe ~neyye.
        > Is lakkha.na referring to the three general characteristics? And
        vikara to
        > the changeability? I tried to see the five meanings of neyya.

        I don't know enough about this to give any satisfactory answer. The
        same five kinds of knowables are also listed in the Saddaniiti, p.
        604 but I haven't come across anything that explains them in any
        detail. I think "lakkha.na" would include specific characteristics
        (hardness,etc.) as well as the general ones.

        Best wishes,
        Jim
      • nina van gorkom
        Dear Jim, thank you very much. op 23-06-2006 03:28 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca: refuting with dhamma or refuting with reason are other
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 23, 2006
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          Dear Jim,
          thank you very much.
          op 23-06-2006 03:28 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:

          "refuting with dhamma" or "refuting with reason" are other
          possibilities. I was unable to find "saha dhammena niggayha" anywhere
          else on the CSCD disk but there is something that comes fairly close
          to it in the Mahaaparinibbaanasutta at D II 104:

          ...uppanna.m parappavaada.m saha dhammena suniggahiita.m niggahetvaa
          sappaa.tihaariya.m dhamma.m desessantiiti.

          At Sv II 552, Buddhaghosa explains "saha dhammena" with "sahetukena
          sakaara.nena vacanena".
          -------
          N: This is clearer. It explains kaara.na as a meaning of dhamma.
          --------
          J:I'm not clear at all about the
          phrase "samaya~n~nuupamaahi.msaadiisupi dhammo". The "aado"
          in "kaara.naado" indicates that there are other meanings of "dhammo"
          besides the 14 given at Abh 784 and I would think that the .tiikaa is
          providing some of those additional meanings but "samaya~n~nuu" etc.
          just doesn't make a lot of sense here.
          ------
          N: Or is the y a gliding vocal in between? with another simile? Not yañña,
          but añña?.

          ****
          Nina.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jim Anderson
          Dear Nina, ... Jim: My reading of the compound samaya~n~nuupamaahi.msaadiisu is: samaya~n~nuu-upamaa-ahi.msaa-aadiisu It contains a list of three additional
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 23, 2006
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            Dear Nina,

            > --------
            > J:I'm not clear at all about the
            > phrase "samaya~n~nuupamaahi.msaadiisupi dhammo". The "aado"
            > in "kaara.naado" indicates that there are other meanings of "dhammo"
            > besides the 14 given at Abh 784 and I would think that the .tiikaa
            > is providing some of those additional meanings but "samaya~n~nuu" >
            > etc. just doesn't make a lot of sense here.
            > ------
            > N: Or is the y a gliding vocal in between? with another simile? Not
            > yañña, but añña?.
            >
            -------
            Jim:
            My reading of the compound "samaya~n~nuupamaahi.msaadiisu" is:

            samaya~n~nuu-upamaa-ahi.msaa-aadiisu

            It contains a list of three additional meanings of "dhammo" as
            follows: samaya~n~nuu (knower of the samaya?), upamaa (resemblance),
            & ahi.msaa (harmlessness). The Abh .tiikaa doesn't provide any
            quotations (canonical or otherwise) to illustrate these meanings. I
            find it unusual that "dhammo" could be used as an agent-noun in the
            sense of "samaya~n~nuu" but I suppose it's possible.

            Jim
          • nina van gorkom
            Dear Jim, op 24-06-2006 03:30 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca: My reading of the compound samaya~n~nuupamaahi.msaadiisu is:
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 24, 2006
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              Dear Jim,
              op 24-06-2006 03:30 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:

              My reading of the compound "samaya~n~nuupamaahi.msaadiisu" is:

              samaya~n~nuu-upamaa-ahi.msaa-aadiisu

              It contains a list of three additional meanings of "dhammo" as
              follows: samaya~n~nuu (knower of the samaya?),
              -------
              N: The Atthasaalinii has a great passage of the many meanings of samaya:
              The Dhammasanga.nii, when dealing with the first type of kusala citta,
              states: <At the occasion (yasmi.m samaye) when kusala citta belonging to the
              sense sphere has arisen accompanied by joy and associated with knowledge,
              unprompted...> and then it enumerates the many cetasikas that assist the
              citta. The ³Expositor² (p. 76 etc.) explains numerous meanings of samaya,
              such as: time or occasion, concurrence of causes, moment. It explains that
              the <four wheels> should be classed as the one moment in the sense of
              occasion, they form the occasion for the production of merit. It states: <It
              does not occur without there being a concurrence of circumstances, such as
              existence as a human being, the rise of the Buddha, and the stability of the
              good Law, etc.... > .....
              Samaya can also mean group, and this shows the simultaneous occurrence of
              many dhammas. The kusala citta is accompanied by many cetasikas, each
              performing their own function.
              By samaya is shown the concurrence of conditions, the mutual contribution
              towards the production of a common result. The Expositor explains with
              regard to samaya as condition: <By this word showing thus the condition, the
              conceit of one who believes that states unconditionally follow one¹s own
              will is subdued.>
              -------
              This could be: dhamma as understanding of samaya. Samay has a deep meaning.
              As we have seen before, dhamma can also mean paññaa. It can be paññaa
              understanding the intricacies of samaya, how is that?
              But now we are still stuck with ahi.msaa and upama. Dhamma as upama: knowing
              the right simile for the explanation of a reality? This is achieved by
              wisdom. But ahi.msaa here? Dhamma as teaching of non-violence?
              -----
              J: upamaa (resemblance),
              & ahi.msaa (harmlessness). The Abh .tiikaa doesn't provide any
              quotations (canonical or otherwise) to illustrate these meanings. I
              find it unusual that "dhammo" could be used as an agent-noun in the
              sense of "samaya~n~nuu" but I suppose it's possible.
              ------
              N: I hope others can help us.
              Nina.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ole Holten Pind
              In the Abhidhamma pssages I have checked, it appears that samaya has the same meaning as recorded in Sanskrit i.e. that of doctrine. samaya~n~nuu would seem to
              Message 6 of 8 , Jun 24, 2006
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                In the Abhidhamma pssages I have checked, it appears that samaya has the
                same meaning as recorded in Sanskrit i.e. that of doctrine. samaya~n~nuu
                would seem to denote someone who knows the received doctrine on a particular
                subject.
                Regards,
                Ole Pind

                _____

                Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af nina van
                gorkom
                Sendt: 24. juni 2006 14:27
                Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                Emne: Re: [Pali] Re: to Jim, Meanings of Dhamma, samaya



                Dear Jim,
                op 24-06-2006 03:30 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_
                <mailto:jimanderson_on%40yahoo.ca> on@...:

                My reading of the compound "samaya~n~nuupamaahi.msaadiisu" is:

                samaya~n~nuu-upamaa-ahi.msaa-aadiisu

                It contains a list of three additional meanings of "dhammo" as
                follows: samaya~n~nuu (knower of the samaya?),
                -------
                N: The Atthasaalinii has a great passage of the many meanings of samaya:
                The Dhammasanga.nii, when dealing with the first type of kusala citta,
                states: <At the occasion (yasmi.m samaye) when kusala citta belonging to the
                sense sphere has arisen accompanied by joy and associated with knowledge,
                unprompted...> and then it enumerates the many cetasikas that assist the
                citta. The ³Expositor² (p. 76 etc.) explains numerous meanings of samaya,
                such as: time or occasion, concurrence of causes, moment. It explains that
                the <four wheels> should be classed as the one moment in the sense of
                occasion, they form the occasion for the production of merit. It states: <It
                does not occur without there being a concurrence of circumstances, such as
                existence as a human being, the rise of the Buddha, and the stability of the
                good Law, etc.... > .....
                Samaya can also mean group, and this shows the simultaneous occurrence of
                many dhammas. The kusala citta is accompanied by many cetasikas, each
                performing their own function.
                By samaya is shown the concurrence of conditions, the mutual contribution
                towards the production of a common result. The Expositor explains with
                regard to samaya as condition: <By this word showing thus the condition, the
                conceit of one who believes that states unconditionally follow one¹s own
                will is subdued.>
                -------
                This could be: dhamma as understanding of samaya. Samay has a deep meaning.
                As we have seen before, dhamma can also mean paññaa. It can be paññaa
                understanding the intricacies of samaya, how is that?
                But now we are still stuck with ahi.msaa and upama. Dhamma as upama: knowing
                the right simile for the explanation of a reality? This is achieved by
                wisdom. But ahi.msaa here? Dhamma as teaching of non-violence?
                -----
                J: upamaa (resemblance),
                & ahi.msaa (harmlessness). The Abh .tiikaa doesn't provide any
                quotations (canonical or otherwise) to illustrate these meanings. I
                find it unusual that "dhammo" could be used as an agent-noun in the
                sense of "samaya~n~nuu" but I suppose it's possible.
                ------
                N: I hope others can help us.
                Nina.

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              • Jim Anderson
                Dear Nina, N: This could be: dhamma as understanding of samaya. Samay has a deep meaning. As we have seen before, dhamma can also mean paññaa. It can be
                Message 7 of 8 , Jun 24, 2006
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                  Dear Nina,

                  N: This could be: dhamma as understanding of samaya. Samay has a deep
                  meaning.
                  As we have seen before, dhamma can also mean paññaa. It can be paññaa
                  understanding the intricacies of samaya, how is that?

                  J: Thanks for explaining the various meanings of "samaya" which I had
                  left untranslated because of the uncertainty of what it might mean in
                  combination with "-~n~nuu". Ole has added another possibility. My
                  earlier description of "samaya~n~nuu" as an agent-noun was to wide.
                  What I was trying to get at was the use of "dhammo" to describe an
                  individual. I notice that in Apte's Sanskrit dictionary, one of the
                  many meanings given for "dharma.h" is a Jain arhat.

                  N: But now we are still stuck with ahi.msaa and upama. Dhamma as
                  upama: knowing the right simile for the explanation of a reality?
                  This is achieved by wisdom. But ahi.msaa here? Dhamma as teaching of
                  non-violence?

                  J: Instead of "ahi.msaa" it might be "hi.msaa" in the sense of
                  destroying the unwholesome. In the opening verses of the
                  Mukhamattadiipanii (a grammatical commentary on Kaccaayana), there is
                  this line with respect to paying homage to the Triple Gem:

                  "mohassa dha.msakamapissa suvuttadhamma.m | "
                  (having venerated) too his well-spoken Dhamma, the destroyer of
                  delusion,...

                  Jim
                • nina van gorkom
                  Dear Jim and Ole, many thanks for your helpful suggestions. Slowly I may now come to understand this text. Nina.
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jun 24, 2006
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                    Dear Jim and Ole,
                    many thanks for your helpful suggestions.
                    Slowly I may now come to understand this text.
                    Nina.
                    op 24-06-2006 20:34 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:

                    > J: Instead of "ahi.msaa" it might be "hi.msaa" in the sense of
                    > destroying the unwholesome. In the opening verses of the
                    > Mukhamattadiipanii (a grammatical commentary on Kaccaayana), there is
                    > this line with respect to paying homage to the Triple Gem:
                    >
                    > "mohassa dha.msakamapissa suvuttadhamma.m | "
                    > (having venerated) too his well-spoken Dhamma, the destroyer of
                    > delusion,...
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