Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Pali ] Q. AN1.18.1-181 Aparaaccharaasa`nghaata Vagga (2/4)

Expand Messages
  • Ong Yong Peng
    Dear Dmytro and Nina, thanks. It seems like there are two schools of thoughts here, one of which identifies with the commentarial interpretation. Perhaps this
    Message 1 of 366 , Jun 13, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Dmytro and Nina,

      thanks. It seems like there are two schools of thoughts here, one of
      which identifies with the commentarial interpretation. Perhaps this
      is a good chance to look at the word again: aruupasa~n~nin.

      Is it

      (1) one who do not perceive (is not conscious of) the material forms;

      or (2) one who perceive (is conscious of) the formless.

      Both seems to be appropriate, until we look at the
      adjective 'ajjhatta'. If we choose the second interpretation, the
      question is then: how would a person in arupa jhana perceive the
      formless internally?

      Also, the fourth stage of arupa jhana is /beyond/ perception, so who
      is then the percipient?

      Let's open this discussion to the ground, and hopefully we can
      derive a meaningful and enlightening solution.

      metta,
      Yong Peng.


      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:

      At first I also thought of aruupa jhaanas, but this was my rpoblem:
      internally, as to own body.
      And externally: limited, whereas for aruupa jhana it is not limited,
      and he sees no forms. It is free of materiality.

      I took the *a* negation for the whole word aruupasa~n~nii.

      > Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko:
      > This is about arupa jhanas throuh kasina practice.
    • nina van gorkom
      Dear Yong Peng, I found this in my concepts file not sent. So, I send it now, though belated (29 July). I cannot remember whether I sent it, but I do not see
      Message 366 of 366 , Aug 17, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Yong Peng,

        I found this in my concepts file not sent. So, I send it now, though
        belated (29 July). I cannot remember whether I sent it, but I do not
        see it in the messages.

        Nina.
        op 07-06-2006 08:45 schreef Ong Yong Peng op pali.smith@...:

        please advise on the word: aruupasa~n~nii

        21-25. Saddhindriya.m bhaaveti... viiriyindriya.m bhaaveti...
        satindriya.m bhaaveti... samaadhindriya.m bhaaveti...
        pa~n~nindriya.m bhaaveti....



        ----------------------------------------------------------

        21-25. Saddhindriya.m bhaaveti... viiriyindriya.m bhaaveti...
        satindriya.m bhaaveti... samaadhindriya.m bhaaveti...
        pa~n~nindriya.m bhaaveti....
        ["O monks, if a monk] developed the faculty of faith (faculty of
        energy, faculty of mindfulness, faculty of concentration, faculty of
        wisdom), [even for the duration of a finger-snap, monks, such is
        said...]
        ------
        N: such a one is said...
        --------
        ----------------------------------------------------------

        31-37. Satisambojjha`nga.m bhaaveti... dhammavicayasambojjha`nga.m
        bhaaveti... viiriyasambojjha`nga.m bhaaveti... piitisambojjha`nga.m
        bhaaveti... passaddhisambojjha`nga.m bhaaveti...
        samaadhisambojjha`nga.m bhaaveti... upekkhaasambojjha`nga.m
        bhaaveti....

        ["O monks, if a monk] developed the mindfulness (doctrinal
        investigation,
        ------
        N: Investigation of Dhamma.
        -------

        38-45. Sammaadi.t.thi.m bhaaveti... sammaasa`nkappa.m bhaaveti...
        sammaavaaca.m bhaaveti... sammaakammanta.m bhaaveti... sammaa-
        aajiiva.m bhaaveti... sammaavaayaama.m bhaaveti... sammaasati.m
        bhaaveti... sammaasamaadhi.m bhaaveti....
        ["O monks, if a monk] developed right view (right intention, right
        speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right
        mindfulness, right concentration), [even for the duration of a
        finger-snap, monks, such is said...]
        -------
        N: sammaasa`nkappa.m: instead of right intention: right thinking.

        Intention is usually reserved for the term cetanaa, volition or kamma
        which
        is not a factor of the eightfold Path.
        Sammaadi.t.thi and sammaasa`nkappa are together called the wisdom of the
        eightfold Path. Sammaasa`nkappa is vitakka cetasika and it assists
        paññaa in
        'touching' or striking the object of understanding so that paññaa can
        know
        it.

        ----------------------------------------------------------

        46-53. Ajjhatta.m ruupasa~n~nii bahiddhaa ruupaani passati
        parittaani suva.n.nadubba.n.naani. 'Taani abhibhuyya jaanaami
        passaamii'ti -- eva.msa~n~nii hoti...
        ["O monks, if a monk, even for the duration of a finger-snap,]
        conscious of material forms arising from within,
        -------
        N: ajjhatta: I would eliminate arising, thus: within himself.
        I think materiality of his own body.
        He can develop kasinas taking as subject parts of his own body or
        external
        objects and then attain ruupa-jhaana.
        --------

        * appamaa.na (adj) endless, immeasurable, boundless, unlimited.
        ------
        N: here is allusion to the immaterial jhaanas, and here is the
        connection
        with the term aruupasa~n~nin.
        I consulted Dhammasangani Pali, 225: this has aruupasa~n~na. This is
        translated by PTS as: unconscious of any part of his corporeal self..

        The *a* is a negation of ruupasa~n~nin, not of ruupa, thus, not
        perceiving
        ruupa, materiality, of his own body. (See below the Atthasaalinii).
        The word unconscious seems misleading.
        ---------
        Ajjhatta.m aruupasa~n~nii bahiddhaa ruupaani passati parittaani
        suva.n.nadubba.n.naani. 'Taani abhibhuyya jaanaami passaamii'ti --
        eva.msa~n~nii hoti...

        ["O monks, if a monk, even for the duration of a finger-snap,]
        conscious of immaterial forms arising from within,
        ------
        N: immaterial forms: this is a contradiction.
        It could be: not conscious of material forms of his own body...
        This could be applied of all the following paras. These paras seem to
        refer
        to the colour kasinas of ruupa-jhaana.

        The Atthasaalinii, Co. to the Dhammasangani, explains (188) these
        'positions
        of mastery'.
        <'Not perceiving material quality in himself' means devoid of the
        perception
        of the preamble in his own bodily frame, either from not getting it,
        or from
        not wishing it.
        'Sees material qualities external to himself' means, from having
        performed
        the preamble externally in the eight devices, he sees with jhaana-
        eyes the
        external objects of these eight devices by virtue of the preamble and
        the
        extasy.
        'Limited' means not growing....
        Beautiful or ugly means pure or impure colours...>

        It is asked why it is said, Not perceiving material quality in
        himself, this
        is because his own body is not to be mastered, only external objects...
        *****
        Nina.






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.