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15995Re: Geoff Shatz's Conclusion -- Re: Fw: [Pali] All of that is considered Jhana?

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  • Dieter Moeller
    Feb 18, 2013
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      Dear Venerable Kumara,

      just in preparation of a travel, I am sorry that my response may be short of proper attention to your comment.

      In general I consider the similes (bathman,lake,lotus pond ,man covered with cloth) giving important clues about the 4 Jhana states and suppose you may agree with me .

      As the first approach stated by G.S. is concerned :

      'i) attention training where one absorbs into > a single object and thereby stills all mental
      > factors

      D: is in line with the texts, although not these word are used , isn't it?

      "to the point where, as Ajahn > Brahmavamso explains, "Consciousness is so > focused on the one thing that the faculty of
      > comprehension is suspended . there is no comprehension of what is going on."

      D: perhaps 'no need' of comprehension of what is going on respectively 'no disturbance' ( by the senses media) would fit as well .
      .. compare pls e.g. with the Buddha' s statement that he used the Jhanas to withdraw from the pain due to old age (Maha Pari- Nibbana Sutta) or comments that even loud thunder would not disturb the disciples.
      One-pointedness is a chracteristic of the Jhanas, isn't it?

      with Metta Dieter

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Kumara Bhikkhu
      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 7:42 AM
      Subject: Geoff Shatz's Conclusion -- Re: Fw: [Pali] All of that is considered Jhana?

      Dear Deiter,

      I fully agree wtth GS that "it's really a matter
      of what each of us has tried and found helpful for our own practice."

      However, I'd like to question the conclusion of
      "all 3 approaches are seemingly in line with the
      texts " Hope you don't mind referring to what GS wrote again:
      * For the second one, he said, "I consider
      the resultant meditative state of this second
      approach to represent an accurate assessment of
      jhana as it's presented in the suttas."
      * For the third, "Thus this approach can
      certainly lead to jhana. This is entirely in
      keeping with what is outlined in the suttas."

      Nothing of this sort was said for the first. From
      my own research (though nowhere as extensive as his), I can see why.

      Nonetheless, as GS said so very well, "everyone
      is free to make up their own mind regarding what
      they feel is necessary for their practice."

      I'd like to add though that regardless of one's
      decision, please bear in mind the purpose of the
      Buddha's teachings, esp his instruction in
      Dhammacakkappavatana Sutta "This first noble
      truth of suffering is to be fully understood."

      I try to be open minded about different
      approaches. However, having taught meditation for
      quite some years now, I've met quite a few who
      are so inclined to absorptions that they are not
      willing to meet suffering to understand it. Some
      can't even get back to absorptions anymore, yet
      they keep on trying and hoping. One was
      eventually forced to meet suffering when she
      became clinically depressed. A "gifted" student
      of mine helped her through. Hope she has learnt the lesson.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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