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15987Re: [Pali] The Twin Miracle, Yamaka Patihara

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  • Frank K
    Feb 11, 2013
      Dear Nina,
      In the case of Nanda, the problem isn't that the Buddha took him to the
      deva realms to show him that there were sensual pleasures far greater than
      earthly ones. The problem is the Buddha guaranteed his cousin Nanda
      celestial nymphs if he didn't disrobe and remained in the order. If the
      Buddha had made the guarantee in a not so ironclad way, I wouldn't have a
      problem with that either. For example, if he said, "Nanda, if you don't
      disrobe, I will show you how to develop samatha to the point where you
      could easily attain celestial nymphs." Then the Buddha would be stating a
      truth, and not making ironclad guarantees that seem to be not something an
      enlightened being would say.

      In the case of Angulimala, is there any other precedent in the Canon where
      someone can commit such heinous crimes as Angulimala and still attain
      arahantship or even stream entry in that safe lifetime? King Ajattasattu ,
      according to the commentaries, in DN2 would have attained stream entry had
      he not had the heavy kamma of killing his father. Instead, he went to hell
      for a long time, aeons later became a paccekabuddha. Devadatta, the
      Buddha's cousin, who tried to kill the Buddha many times went to hell for a
      long long time. Angulimala who also tried to kill the Buddha, and
      successfully killed many innocent strangers in cold blood, became an
      arahant that life? There's no precedent for anything like that. It just
      doesn't make any sense.Very hard to believe. Even someone who only has the
      parami to become a deva, they wouldn't be a homocidal maniac that life.


      On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 1:10 AM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

      > **
      > Dear Frank,
      > Op 9-feb-2013, om 17:41 heeft Frank K het volgende geschreven:
      > > Especially with so many
      > > passages in the canon explicitly detailing right speech and the
      > > danger of
      > > the smallest lie, I find it extremely offensive that a Buddha would
      > > need or
      > > even entertain the use of a white lie as a way to help his disciples
      > > advance in their practice. In the Angulimala story, I find it
      > > really hard
      > > to believe he could even attain stream entry, let alone arahantship.
      > -------
      > N: We have to carefully consider conditions. If we do not consider
      > the story in the suttas we may misunderstand the meaning.
      > As tto showing devatas to Nanda, the Buddha wanted to teach him a
      > lesson. We read in the commentary to the Udaana (P. Masefield, p.
      > 454):
      > The Buddha knew exactly people's accumulations and the right
      > medicine. Nanada attained arahatship.
      > -----
      > Angulima accumulated in past lives both good and bad inclinations.
      > When he met the Buddha it was the right time for his accumulated
      > wisdom to ripen and to attain arahatship.
      > This story should encourage us, knowing that accumulated
      > understanding is never lost, no matter how many unwholesome
      > tendencies condition the arising of strong akusala.
      > ------
      > Nina.
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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