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Re: Fire came First & other posting poets

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  • TeddyRay
    Well I actually just write to release. But I am not against feedback. I am not writing to get published so I don t really need to write perfect prose. As long
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 10, 2006
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      Well I actually just write to release. But I am not against feedback. I
      am not writing to get published so I don't really need to write perfect
      prose. As long as I touch a few of my peers I am happy.

      Teddy

      --- In paganpoetssociety@yahoogroups.com, wolfsighs@... wrote:
      >
      > Dear Author of "Fire Came First" and other Posting Poets:
      >
      > Are you looking for comments or actual feedback?
      >
      >
    • TeddyRay
      Thank you so much. I am glad you enjoyed it. Teddy ... together (or a
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 10, 2006
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        Thank you so much. I am glad you enjoyed it.

        Teddy

        -- In paganpoetssociety@yahoogroups.com, Sara <mortalita@...> wrote:
        >
        > It's beautiful, and rough as you say, but that makes it only better.
        > I like the way you connect the elements, they create a circle
        together (or a
        > star...).
        > S.
        >
        >
        >
      • TeddyRay
        I am honored that I was able to bring you a moments peace. It is the greatest thing to hear that I was able to touch one of my fellow pagans. Remember always
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 10, 2006
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          I am honored that I was able to bring you a moments peace. It is the
          greatest thing to hear that I was able to touch one of my fellow
          pagans. Remember always that you never walk alone. I am your brother
          and we are both an important part of the 5th element.

          Teddy

          --- In paganpoetssociety@yahoogroups.com, RAY ROSARIO <d4saken1@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Your poem brought a moment of peace to a very fiery
          > soul, who at times forgets we are all brothers and
          > sisters. For this I thank you.
          >
          >
        • TeddyRay
          Thank you so very much. I am glad that my muse gave me the ability to reach out to so many. It is my pleasure to share. Your appreciation makes it more than
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 10, 2006
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            Thank you so very much. I am glad that my muse gave me the ability to
            reach out to so many. It is my pleasure to share. Your appreciation
            makes it more than worth while. Once again I thank you for letting me
            know you liked it.

            Teddy

            --- In paganpoetssociety@yahoogroups.com, "Gaia Damselfly"
            <gaiadamselfly@...> wrote:
            >
            > This is simply wonderful. I truly enjoyed the visions that this
            > reading sprung in my mind. Thank you so much for sharing. I agree
            > with the earlier post -- the roughness is it's charm. But it flows
            > as well.
            >
            > Blessings!
            > Gaia
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • wolfsighs@aol.com
            Thanks White Rhino for the response. It looks to me like the those wanting critique would benefit by asking for one. I know that I will not respond unless
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 10, 2006
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              Thanks White Rhino for the response. It looks to me like the those wanting critique would benefit by asking for one. I know that I will not respond unless asked to do so. Also, you can let me know if you want me to respond on or off list. On list would allow for a dialog where you can get multiple points of view. Off-list makes the process a little more private. Whatever your comfort level is, let me know. I will be happy to provide feedback.

              Artesia
              www.mcbolt.com
              "The well of Providence is deep. It's the buckets we bring to it that are small." -- Mary Webb
              --
              "It is not easy to find happiness in ourselves, and it is not possible to find it elsewhere."
              -- Agnes Repplier





              -----Original Message-----
              From: pauldlawrence@...
              To: paganpoetssociety@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 12:15 AM
              Subject: Re: [Pagan Poets Society] Fire came First & other posting poets


              I cannot speak for others, but when I finally post, I would appreciate
              critique; however, I do not write "free verse" so any suggestions should
              not violate the form.

              White Rhino
            • wolfsighs@aol.com
              First, I would like to thank you for your thoughtful response to my post. I really appreciate the multiple points that you have made and will gladly provide
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 10, 2006
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                First, I would like to thank you for your thoughtful response to my post. I really appreciate the multiple points that you have made and will gladly provide you with my point of view because I agree with you that there will be diversity on people's opinions on this topic. AND I really liked what you wrote and enjoyed reading your post.

                1. I think, having asked the question regarding critiques, that I will only provide feedback if you (meaning any of you) ask for it. And as I posted to White Rhino, I can do that on or off list according to the poet's comfort level. I personally believe that we can all learn from each other, so I recommend on-list to those not actively attempting to publish (see #4). But I have no problem with someone wanting to have comments sent privately, especially if they are new to the critique process. And I have no problem with people not wanting comments either.

                2. You raise an interesting question regarding credentials. I think all writers should ask the question, who are you to judge my work? I have no problem posting my credentials and will do so separately. Having said that, I also want to share that I have experienced, with my own poetry, people who've given me valid and useful feedback who did not have educational degrees, publishing credits or other stats. On this list, I would welcome anyone's comments. I believe that every one of us can say whether we like someone or not, even if we haven't the skills to the clearly define why. And those skills can be honed with time and practice to become a useful critique.

                3. Here's my opinion on critique. Critique is a tool for the writer to learn what she or he does and does not do well. When three people tell you that your rhyme is forced or sounds a little clunky, you can bet there IS something that needs to be reworked. When three people say that a particular description is brilliant then grin and know you really did great. But the bottom line is that critique is a personal response to art which means that it is nothing more than opinion. The author can take the advice or leave it. They should use only what they want to use and that might be nothing. Just because I say something ought to be changed doesn't mean that you have to listen to me.

                4. I completely agree with you about poetry in forums or websites makes it un-saleable. I've posted that statement previously. But, I don't actually know how an editor would respond to a poem that is posted in rough-draft format and then heavily revised before submission. For people looking to sell or place their work, I would advise against posting to the list, but you could still trade private emails. The best thing to do is to research your potential markets. If the submission guidelines state no reprints then they won't take your work because public access on the internet makes a poem on your website considered by most professional magazines as 'published'. So, you are correct, Janine, about not posting any poems that might want to try to place. And if you have other questions about publishing throw them out and I'll do the best I can to answer them. But remember, I don't know everything and you should always do your own research.

                5. Your comment about having someone read just for grammar or spelling made me smile because I would not want that either. I'm not a great line editor. I read for content. But if I saw a spelling mistake in your work, wouldn't you want me to tell you about it? I know I would want you to tell me if you caught one in mine. Just like if I had broccoli in my teeth, I'd want you to point that out too. I think that if I had something in my poem that logically didn't make sense, was vague, used trite imagery or otherwise didn't work, I would want you to let me know that also. Perhaps this is an assumption, but since this is a pagan group I expect this to be a safe and sacred space where we can work together for mutual benefit. If I want full throttle encouragement, I'll show my work to my mom, best friend or lover. But from my poetry peers I want feedback, because I won't grow otherwise (and this is a statement about me and my own path in life). And I would think that here, as like minds, we could find a way to offer suggestions that doesn't diminish the author.

                6. I think that your point about posting a poem that isn't rough, but just how you want it is an intriguing and thought provoking statement. On the one hand, I can't really tell you that it isn't how you want it, can I? But how do you know that is just the way you want it until you share it with an audience? I think people who post poetry or submit poetry are looking for more than the sheer satisfaction of writing for themselves (because that can be done by writing in a journal and keeping it there). I think people who post are attempting to connect with other people, to move people with their words, to evoke a response. And how can you know the success of that, if you don't ask for honest feedback? Because when you do submit to an editor you don't get to stand at his or her shoulder and say, "But what I meant was..."

                And I have to say, Janine, your foreign language skills are awesome. If you're in the Michigan area, let's have tea! Have you read Suzette Haden Elgin's work? She is a linguist and writes sf. She founded the S.F.P.A (Science Fiction Poetry Association). Google her and check out Laadan, which is a language she created.

                Artesia
                www.mcbolt.com
                "The well of Providence is deep. It's the buckets we bring to it that are small." -- Mary Webb
                --
                "It is not easy to find happiness in ourselves, and it is not possible to find it elsewhere."
                -- Agnes Repplier
                ________________________________________________________________________
                Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Paul D. Lawrence
                I used to do copyediting. I would hope corrections in usage would be considered helpful, not negative. Now there are occasions where the author might want to
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 12, 2006
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                  I used to do copyediting. I would hope corrections in usage would be
                  considered helpful, not negative. Now there are occasions where the
                  author might want to vary from standard usage. The author has the right,
                  of course, it should be done for a purpose--like the previous portion of
                  this sentence.

                  --- Sara <mortalita@...> wrote:

                  > As I haven't show anything here, I don't really know what I want... I
                  > love
                  > to write and to read what others write. And I am very careful with my
                  > crituque, I rather not write than lie. Before I can say something "bad"
                  > about it, I want to know what kind of critique the writer wants. Then I
                  > can
                  > write whatever I want.
                  > And when I post something, I want the truth. I don't want anyone to say
                  > that
                  > it is good when it's not, or something like that. If I post, I'll post
                  > because I want to know what I can do better. English is not my native
                  > language, though I speak it almost fluently with small grammar mistakes,
                  > so
                  > I want to know what I did wrong (both with the poem itself and the
                  > language).
                  > I guess I am one of the youngest here, and that's another reason why I
                  > am
                  > careful with critique, because I think that the other is right. Maybe
                  > that's
                  > wrong...
                  > Well, this is my thought about it.
                  > S.
                  >
                  >
                  > On 10/9/06, Jeanine Joanna Todd <wildwestie@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > This is a response to Wolfsighs, who asked about comments and
                  > > critiquing. Speaking from my own personal perspective, if I post a
                  > poem
                  > > here, I'm just looking to share my spiritual experience with the
                  > group. If I
                  > > post online, unless I ask for a critique, I don't want one. And I
                  > appreciate
                  > > very much your post which shows a sensitivity to and perception of the
                  > > difference between the idea of a true literary critique which the poet
                  > sees
                  > > as a stepping stone to something better and the pointing out of things
                  > > 'wrong' which works in the perception of the poet as negative feedback
                  > or
                  > > criticism.
                  > >
                  > > To briefly elaborate on the topic, let me share some of my thoughts on
                  > > this and maybe we can all participate in this dialogue, as I'm certain
                  > there
                  > > are bound to be differing views among us. One thing that puts me off
                  > about
                  > > online critiques is that I don't know the critics or why I should
                  > listen to
                  > > anyone doing a critique, unless or until that person posts his or her
                  > own
                  > > background. What I am driving at is the idea that anyone critiquing
                  > work
                  > > should show proof they have credentials to critique; otherwise, why
                  > should I
                  > > see it as anything but criticism? On the other hand, if you work as an
                  > > editor or a teacher, as I have done in the past, you need to say so
                  > because
                  > > that is important for us to know, as well as what publications you are
                  > > editing, if you are presently employed as an editor. If you are an
                  > English
                  > > teacher, how long have you been teaching? Have you ever written work
                  > and
                  > > submitted it to an editor? Anything along these lines would be useful
                  > to
                  > > know. If you have posted this type of background information before,
                  > please
                  > > pardon me for the request, but I must have joined the list since then
                  > > because I have not seen it. In that case, I would honestly appreciate
                  > it if
                  > > you would re-send that information.
                  > >
                  > > Here's another point that enters into it for me personally. I'm a
                  > linguist
                  > > myself. I speak fluent German, read Aramaic and Hebrew, and know some
                  > > French, some Italian. I read a little Russian, and I'm fluent in
                  > American
                  > > Sign Language. I have served on a Bible translation committee once
                  > upon a
                  > > time when I was yet Christian, and I was employed at a small
                  > university
                  > > teaching German for some years before my husband got transferred. I've
                  > also
                  > > been an interpreter for the Deaf. I mean, I think after all the study,
                  > time
                  > > spent abroad and teaching I've done, I can edit my own work. And if I
                  > choose
                  > > to use an alternate spelling or unusual punctuation, I've put thought
                  > into
                  > > that, also ..... those are things another person can't discern without
                  > > knowing me and my intention as I write, and they would have to be
                  > discussed
                  > > with an editor and explained, if the piece were about to be published.
                  > But
                  > > if I'm putting my work online, it isn't going to be published in
                  > paper. Most
                  > > reputable editors wouldn't want previously 'published' material which
                  > I
                  > > would think includes anything publicly posted on an email list.
                  > >
                  > > I guess what I'm saying is, if I wanted to publish something, I'd go
                  > > straight to an editor with it and I wouldn't shoot myself in the foot
                  > by
                  > > posting it online at the same time. If I am posting here, it's just a
                  > bit of
                  > > healing art that I'm sharing for others to glean what sentiments they
                  > can
                  > > from it. Sometimes I hesitate to post when I think someone is just
                  > looking
                  > > at grammar and spelling.... I want to have a spiritual impact first,
                  > and the
                  > > literary nature of the piece should be of secondary concern. I prefer
                  > to
                  > > hone those facets of the poem myself, and when or if I post here, my
                  > poem
                  > > won't likely be a little rough around the edges from that standpoint.
                  > It
                  > > will be just how I want it. I don't want you all to be just a group of
                  > > guinea pigs! I'd like to think I'm sharing the finished piece with
                  > you!
                  > >
                  > > But these are just my thoughts. I hope others will also respond to
                  > your
                  > > question with how they feel about it.
                  > >
                  > > Blessings,
                  > > Jeanine
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • wolfsighs@aol.com
                  Dear TeddyRay, Keep in mind that all of my comments are my opinions. Use whatever works for you. My purpose of this was simply to help you think of ways to
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 17, 2006
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                    Dear TeddyRay,

                    Keep in mind that all of my comments are my opinions. Use whatever works for you. My purpose of this was simply to help you think of ways to revise this poem that will strengthen it. You've started something interesting and I hope you continue working with it.

                    For the sake of space, I've posted a cut portion of your poem below so that I could comment on a couple of things about your piece.

                    In the beginning of the poem, I have the feeling that the Goddess is out there (in space somewhere). She brings forth or activates fire (I am not really sure what you mean by the Lady giving direction- 'north' or 'go do something'?) and then the Goddess births earth. Then you lose me.

                    The 'I' speaking is Earth which you say in the first line of the Earth stanza. In the last line, you say that Water is born from Earth's tears. That makes Water Earth's daughter, not her sister. In the Water stanza you tell us that Air is given life (born) from Water's singing, which makes Air Water's son, Earth's grandson and Fire's great nephew, not a brother. I am willing to read a poem that talks about the Goddess birthing all of the elements and that they are all equal to one another, but in this poem you have a hierarchy of timing (spirit is last and seems to be the weakest element because you say that multiple lives spread Spirit's knowledge thin when I've always thought it represented enlightenment), yet you mention a star shape, yet it seems to be a circle because spirit and fire are connected. I think that you mean to make them all equal, but it didn't come across that way to me when I first read the poem. In your Air stanza you say that Air is the quiet one. I politely disagree. A tornado sounds like a freight train coming through your house and have you ever seen a Libra blow a fuse in anger? You also threw me for a loop because when I cast a circle, I go Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Spirit. So your order didn't make sense at first to me, but that is a personal preference of my own. And I do think that in poetry, you can introduce the elements in whatever order you want to, especially after you make revisions and clarify.

                    Now, there are several additional things that need clarification when you rewrite. The first time you mention that you are drawing a star is in the water stanza. If you want to keep the star pattern, it needs to be introduced right along with fire and you must mention it for every other element as well. I also want to point out that in each stanza after fire you talk about the mixing of the elements. I think you do a disservice to fire by not mentioning steam (Water/Fire) or lava (Earth/Fire) or even passion (Spirit/Fire). You might want to read about the elements in an astrology book and allow that information to ferment in your mental cauldron before revising. And I am not sure what the secret is that fire keeps. What ever the secret is, why is it kept secret from all of the other elements (and the reader)?

                    Now to play muse for a moment, I am much more intrigued with your idea of fire in space. To me, your beginning is the best and strongest part of the poem (and your line about air being spirit's chariot is also good). It is different than keeping all of the elements earth bound and different in poetry is a good thing. That thought alone leads me think about other possibilities. What if all the elements are out there with Her? Can you think of ways to put earth, water, air and spirit in space? Does Her desire to use them in a planetary way change them from their form in space? Do the elements exist as equals with the Goddess, or does She use them to create like we use paint, clay, metal?

                    "I am the Earth. Second of the Elements, sister of Fire.
                    I remember my first moments, the heaving and pushing.
                    Upon my body are still the great mountains and deep valleys born of
                    this fierce action.
                    I do not know what was before me but I remember all that came after.
                    (cut)
                    The joy brought my tears and gave birth to Water, my dear sister.

                    I am Water, the third point of the Star.
                    I was not there in the beginning, I do not know the secret.
                    (cut)
                    It is my singing that gave life to my brother Air."

                    Hope this helps. Please email me if you have questions.

                    Artesia
                    www.mcbolt.com
                    "The well of Providence is deep. It's the buckets we bring to it that are small." -- Mary Webb
                    --
                    "It is not easy to find happiness in ourselves, and it is not possible to find it elsewhere."
                    -- Agnes Repplier





                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: teddyraytolley@...
                    To: paganpoetssociety@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 3:32 PM
                    Subject: [Pagan Poets Society] Re: Fire came First & other posting poets


                    Well I actually just write to release. But I am not against feedback. I
                    am not writing to get published so I don't really need to write perfect
                    prose. As long as I touch a few of my peers I am happy.

                    Teddy

                    --- In paganpoetssociety@yahoogroups.com, wolfsighs@... wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Author of "Fire Came First" and other Posting Poets:
                    >
                    > Are you looking for comments or actual feedback?
                    >
                    >









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