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Re: Curious, anyone interested in going back to the original purpose of this sit

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  • Christopher Blackwell
    Charles, No there are no Druid vets yet, nor Heathens, Interesting to hear that these are the very rules that were supposed to take place after the court
    Message 1 of 20 , May 6 10:55 AM
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      Charles,

      No there are no Druid vets yet, nor Heathens,
      Interesting to hear that these are the very rules
      that were supposed to take place after the court
      order, one gets so many different stories. There
      is one story that Heathens and Druids might be
      required to pay for their symbols. I wish I could
      verify or disprove that story.

      We need a good centraL source of information to
      cut down on the confusion. It would help me and
      other report to their members

      I would rather like to see any recognised non profit
      relious group to be able to arrange this in advance of
      the vet dying. I would like to see this work smoothly
      without any legal fight. Save wear and tear and cost
      and future bad relations with the VA. So far it looks
      like wait and see.

      Blessed Be,

      Christopher

      --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "Charles P. Arnold" <charlesparnold@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Blackwell" <myrddin@> wrote:
      > >

      > But those are exactly the rules that are now in effect.
      >

      >
      > But that is exactly what the new rules say. They also state that a fight is not required, merely an application. But if they do want to make a fight of it, we are perfectly prepared to grind them into the dust.

      > Then that is a change to the rules that I have not heard about.
      >
      >
      > > I have not heard of new progress from the Druid in getting
      > > their Awen symbol approved. Though I am going to have to ask
      > > some of the few Druid that I know about that.
      >
      >
      > To the best of my knowledge they do not have a deceased Druid veteran for whom a request may be made. I don't keep up with all the groups but Isaac Bonewits and I are pretty close.

      >
      > Remember, those variations that the Christians have are for different organized denomination. Are there different ORGANIZED denominations of Wiccans? Heathens? Druids? Or aree there just different social groups - which the VA will refuse to recognize in accordance with their regulations.
      >
      > Charles
      >
    • Charles P. Arnold
      ... Important Notice - New Law Concerning Eligibility for Headstones and Markers - Public Law 110-157, signed on Dec. 26, 2007, allows the Department of
      Message 2 of 20 , May 7 9:37 AM
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        --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "David" <celt3067@...> wrote:
        >
        > Charles,
        >
        > Could you provide a copy or link to the rules now in effect? I've checked the VA's web site and don't see any instructions on how to request a new emblem.

        "Important Notice - New Law Concerning Eligibility for Headstones and Markers - Public Law 110-157, signed on Dec. 26, 2007, allows the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) to furnish a Government headstone or marker for the graves of eligible veterans who died on or after Nov. 1, 1990, regardless of whether the grave is already marked with a privately purchased headstone or marker. Under the previous law, when the grave was already marked, only veterans who died on or after Sept. 11, 2001 were eligible. Public Law 110-157, also gives VA authority to "furnish, upon request, a medallion or other device of a design determined by the Secretary to signify the deceased's status as a veteran, to be attached to a headstone or marker furnished at private expense." This benefit will be available in lieu of a Government furnished headstone or marker, for veterans in privately marked graves who died on or after Nov. 1, 1990. We currently estimate the medallion will be available in summer 2009. Please continue to monitor the new medallion web page for updated information regarding this new benefit. Important: Eligible veterans are entitled to either a Government-furnished headstone or marker, or the new device, but not both. If you think you may be interested in submitting a claim for the new medallion, we will begin accepting claims once a contract has been awarded for the manufacture of this new product. Claim instructions will be posted on this website. If, after seeing the final new medallion design, you change your mind, you will still have the option to apply for a traditional Government-furnished headstone or marker. There is no change in eligibility for veterans in unmarked graves: Regardless of the date of death, VA will furnish, at no charge to the applicant, a Government headstone or marker for the unmarked grave of any eligible veteran in any cemetery around the world. Note: There is no charge for the headstone or marker itself, however arrangements for placing it in a private cemetery are the applicant's responsibility and all setting fees are at private expense.


        > They have bold notes regarding the eligibility of a marker, headstone or one of the new medallions but nothing obvious about asking for an emblem to be requested that's not on the list.


        Will post more soonest.


        > As I understand, the new rules which were posted for public review in 2007 have not yet been approved & adopted with the changes resulting in the public review.
        >
        > Please share if you have info regarding any new rules on requesting a new emblem.
        >
        > Thanks.
        >
      • Charles P. Arnold
        ... http://www.cem.va.gov/hm/hmemb.asp
        Message 3 of 20 , May 7 9:42 AM
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          --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "David" <celt3067@...> wrote:
          >
          > Charles,
          >
          > Could you provide a copy or link to the rules now in effect? I've checked the VA's web site and don't see any instructions on how to request a new emblem. They have bold notes regarding the eligibility of a marker, headstone or one of the new medallions but nothing obvious about asking for an emblem to be requested that's not on the list.
          >
          > As I understand, the new rules which were posted for public review in 2007 have not yet been approved & adopted with the changes resulting in the public review.
          >
          > Please share if you have info regarding any new rules on requesting a new emblem.
          >
          > Thanks.
          >
          http://www.cem.va.gov/hm/hmemb.asp
        • Charles P. Arnold
          ... How to Complete VA Form 40-1330, Application for Standard Government Headstone or Marker Important Notice - New Law Concerning Eligibility for Headstones
          Message 4 of 20 , May 7 9:49 AM
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            --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "David" <celt3067@...> wrote:
            >
            > Charles,
            >
            > Could you provide a copy or link to the rules now in effect? I've checked the VA's web site and don't see any instructions on how to request a new emblem. They have bold notes regarding the eligibility of a marker, headstone or one of the new medallions but nothing obvious about asking for an emblem to be requested that's not on the list.
            >
            > As I understand, the new rules which were posted for public review in 2007 have not yet been approved & adopted with the changes resulting in the public review.
            >
            > Please share if you have info regarding any new rules on requesting a new emblem.


            " How to Complete VA Form 40-1330, Application for Standard Government Headstone or Marker

            Important Notice - New Law Concerning Eligibility for Headstones and Markers

            "Block 12 indicates the emblem of belief desired. If not desired, please check "None". The approved emblems of belief are listed on the back of the form with a picture of those most frequently requested; pictures of all others may be viewed on our website at www.cem.va.gov."

            Block 13, 14, 15, and 16 identify the person who is assisting the next of kin with preparing the claim. This information must be provided. In case there is any illegible, missing or conflicting information on the claim, we will need to contact you to obtain complete and correct information. The headstone or marker request will be delayed or suspended if we cannot reach you by telephone, fax, or e-mail.

            Block 17 is for the signature of the person listed in block 13a, certifying the information about the deceased veteran is correct. This signature also certifies that the next of kin, or the claimant, is aware that the Government is not authorized to pay the cost of installing the marker in private cemeteries.
          • Charles P. Arnold
            ... Another urban myth and absolutely not true and can not happen for two simple reasons. You can t put items on VA headstones and the VA can t charge for
            Message 5 of 20 , May 7 9:55 AM
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              --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Blackwell" <myrddin@...> wrote:
              >
              > Charles,
              >
              > No there are no Druid vets yet, nor Heathens, Interesting to hear that these are the very rules that were supposed to take place after the court order, one gets so many different stories. There is one story that Heathens and Druids might be required to pay for their symbols. I wish I could verify or disprove that story.


              Another urban myth and absolutely not true and can not happen for two simple reasons. You can't put items on VA headstones and the VA can't charge for headstones.


              > We need a good centraL source of information to cut down on the confusion. It would help me and other report to their members.


              Well, there are a few choices. You can ask here or you can ask Selena.


              > I would rather like to see any recognised non profit relious group to be able to arrange this in advance of the vet dying.


              Believe it or not, a vet can arrange this in advance of their death but, under the new laws, it is all arranged by individuals rather than organizations; which may cuase problems in the future. What I ask is that if anyone has applied for either a hemmer (or whatever) or an awen and they have had problems, post the information here so that it can be sorted out.


              > I would like to see this work smoothly without any legal fight. Save wear and tear and cost and future bad relations with the VA. So far it looks like wait and see.


              Yep.

              Charles
            • Christopher Blackwell
              charles, thanks for the information. I thought the idea of charging people was wrong, but it is sincerely believed by one of the people pushing for the hammer
              Message 6 of 20 , May 8 9:55 AM
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                charles,

                thanks for the information. I thought the idea of charging people was wrong, but it is sincerely believed by one of the people pushing for the hammer symbol and she gets quite upset when I say other wise.

                I will like to see how the VA actually handles the first case of eathr a heaten or a Druid. That will be the test of the reality.

                Blessed Be,

                Christopher

                --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "Charles P. Arnold" <charlesparnold@...> wrote:

                >
                > Another urban myth and absolutely not true and can not happen for two simple reasons. You can't put items on VA headstones and the VA can't charge for headstones.
                >

                >
                > Believe it or not, a vet can arrange this in advance of their death but, under the new laws, it is all arranged by individuals rather than organizations; which may cuase problems in the future. What I ask is that if anyone has applied for either a hemmer (or whatever) or an awen and they have had problems, post the information here so that it can be sorted out.

                > Charles
                >
              • David
                ( Block 12 indicates the emblem of belief desired. If not desired, please check None . The approved emblems of belief are listed on the back of the form with
                Message 7 of 20 , May 12 7:28 PM
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                  ("Block 12 indicates the emblem of belief desired. If not desired, please check "None". The approved emblems of belief are listed on the back of the form with a picture of those most frequently requested; pictures of all others may be viewed on our website at www.cem.va.gov.").

                  To be clear, those instructions are on how to complete the form for a headstone/marker, etc. As you quoted, if a symbol is not on the list, check "None" This does not say anything about how to request a NEW emblem be added to the list. Only what to check to get a marker with no symbol if yours is not on the list.

                  That instruction to request a new emblem be added to the list is still on hold at the VA. Until they approve the new instruction for adding emblems to the list, everybody is on hold irregardless of the emblem in question. When they put the process to add emblems on hold, there were two other groups awaiting approval - both Christian groups.

                  My question might not have been clear enough. Not trying to be contrary - just wanting to make sure we all understand the accurate status of the process to add new emblems.

                  Thanks,
                  David



                  --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "Charles P. Arnold" <charlesparnold@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "David" <celt3067@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Charles,
                  > >
                  > > Could you provide a copy or link to the rules now in effect? I've checked the VA's web site and don't see any instructions on how to request a new emblem. They have bold notes regarding the eligibility of a marker, headstone or one of the new medallions but nothing obvious about asking for an emblem to be requested that's not on the list.
                  > >
                  > > As I understand, the new rules which were posted for public review in 2007 have not yet been approved & adopted with the changes resulting in the public review.
                  > >
                  > > Please share if you have info regarding any new rules on requesting a new emblem.
                  >
                  >
                  > " How to Complete VA Form 40-1330, Application for Standard Government Headstone or Marker
                  >
                  > Important Notice - New Law Concerning Eligibility for Headstones and Markers
                  >
                  > "Block 12 indicates the emblem of belief desired. If not desired, please check "None". The approved emblems of belief are listed on the back of the form with a picture of those most frequently requested; pictures of all others may be viewed on our website at www.cem.va.gov."
                  >
                  > Block 13, 14, 15, and 16 identify the person who is assisting the next of kin with preparing the claim. This information must be provided. In case there is any illegible, missing or conflicting information on the claim, we will need to contact you to obtain complete and correct information. The headstone or marker request will be delayed or suspended if we cannot reach you by telephone, fax, or e-mail.
                  >
                  > Block 17 is for the signature of the person listed in block 13a, certifying the information about the deceased veteran is correct. This signature also certifies that the next of kin, or the claimant, is aware that the Government is not authorized to pay the cost of installing the marker in private cemeteries.
                  >
                • Charles P. Arnold
                  ... Suggest to her that she take the time to ask the VA directly. A headstone is a guaranteed benefit and it is free. If you want to use a symbol already
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 13 6:04 AM
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                    --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Blackwell" <myrddin@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > charles,
                    >
                    > thanks for the information. I thought the idea of charging people was wrong, but it is sincerely believed by one of the people pushing for the hammer symbol and she gets quite upset when I say other wise.


                    Suggest to her that she take the time to ask the VA directly. A headstone is a guaranteed benefit and it is free. If you want to use a symbol already approved, that, too, is free. If you want to include a symbol that is not approved there is only one consequence, the VA will not supply such a headstone. And if the grave is in a federal or most state veterans cemeteries, such a stone will not be allowed to be placed.


                    > I will like to see how the VA actually handles the first case of eathr a heaten or a Druid. That will be the test of the reality.


                    That is exactly what it will be and we are ALL waiting to see if they will follow through as promised. And if they don't, I, for one, do not plan to start at the beginning all over again but to take this struggle up exactly where I left off with the opening salvo being public protests and demonstrations at the VA, action brought through my local VFW Post and LOTS more.

                    Charles
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