Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: House of Representatives vs The U.S. Constitution

Expand Messages
  • Wil Hatfield
    It s in the sources but here it is again: Recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith.
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 13, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      It's in the sources but here it is again:
      Recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith.
      http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:h.res.00847:
      If that URL doesn't work because of line wrapping try this tinyurl:
      http://tinyurl.com/2bpvgo

      Wil /|\


      --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, Paula/MamaCat
      <mnshwct@...> wrote:
      >
      > Please give a web page address, as I can not find this in the
      pages I have looked at.
      > Mama Cat
      >
      > Wil Hatfield <wilhatfield@...> wrote:
      > I must say that I am just completely CHILLED TO THE BONE in
      regards
      > to "H.Res. Bill 847 - Recognizing the importance of Christmas and
      > the Christian faith" which was passed on December 11th, 2007. This
      > bill and its H.R. passing have brought a tear to my eye for my
      > fellow Pagans and our continuous struggle towards equality under
      the
      > U.S. Constitution.
      >
      > Resolved, That the House of Representatives--
      >
      > (1) recognizes the Christian faith as one of the great religions
      of
      > the world;
      > (2) expresses continued support for Christians in the United
      States
      > and worldwide;
      > (3) acknowledges the international religious and historical
      > importance of Christmas and the Christian faith;
      > (4) acknowledges and supports the role played by Christians and
      > Christianity in the founding of the United States and in the
      > formation of the western civilization;
      > (5) rejects bigotry and persecution directed against Christians,
      > both in the United States and worldwide; and
      > (6) expresses its deepest respect to American Christians and
      > Christians throughout the world.
      >
      > My points shall follow:
      >
      > (1) How can ANY religion be recognized as being a "great religion
      of
      > the world" when the word "great" itself is determined only by ones
      > own perspective? I for one think that haggis is great, but does
      that
      > mean that it is a "great food of the world" and should be
      considered
      > so to the entire planet as dictated by the U.S. Government? Yes, a
      > large portion of Ireland still thinks haggis is great, but Ireland
      > is but a small portion of planet Earth.
      >
      > (2) How can the House express continued support for Christians
      when
      > there was no support in the first place? When did the House vote
      on
      > the initial support of Christians in the United States and
      > worldwide? It didn't happen, because it would be a direct
      violation
      > of the U.S. Constitution, the First Amendment and Separation of
      > Church and State just as this bill is a violation.
      >
      > (3) What are the criteria being applied here to the
      word "religious
      > and historical importance" and who wrote and voted on those those
      > criteria? And what does Christmas have to do with Christians
      anyhow.
      > Jesus of Nazareth was born in Bethlehem when the shepherds had
      their
      > flocks in the fields. They would have turned to sheep-sicles in
      > December. Christ was most likely born around April, with September
      > being the last possible month with enough warmth.
      >
      > (4) How absurd! The US was founded on religious freedom. That
      > doesn't mean religious freedom as long as it is a Christian
      > denomination. It means FREEDOM to choose whatever religious path
      > fits your spiritual needs period.
      >
      > (5) So we Pagan and other non-abrahamaic folks can continue to be
      > attacked by bigots and persecuted for our beliefs, but the House
      > will defend any Christian from bigotry and persecution. What a
      > wonderful bill and resolution this is.
      >
      > (6) American Christians and Christians throughout the world are
      > deserving of the House's deepest respect, BUT THE REST OF US
      > AREN'T?! I will be back shortly to finish this article. I think I
      > smell smoke probably from the hordes burning down my house! The
      one
      > I own and pay taxes on! How can the House not equally extend
      respect
      > to all religious preferences?
      >
      >
      > THIS BILL IS AN UTTER SHAM AND AN ILLEGAL ACTION BY THE HOUSE OF
      > REPRESENTATIVES! HERE IS WHY!
      >
      > Declaration of Independence and (yes I'll say it) our Pagan
      country:
      >
      > Our forefathers desired freedom from of the laws of both English
      > Monarchy, the Catholic Church and any other form of organized
      > Christianity. They wanted freedom from taxation and freedom to
      > worship in their own places in their own ways. This is EXTREMELY
      > obvious and evident in our Declaration of Independence.
      >
      > "When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one
      > people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them
      > with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the
      > separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of
      > Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of
      > mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel
      > them to the separation."
      >
      > Natures God and Natures Laws. Not laws as dictated by any church
      nor
      > laws passed by the House which dictate that one religion is better
      > than another. They wanted equal station Pagan and Christian alike,
      > so that no single dictating God or church thereof could establish
      > power over the people of America.
      >
      >
      > Christianity of Early America:
      >
      > There was none! Ok, "none" is an extreme word here and just a
      > byproduct of my extreme frustration of H.Res. Bill 847. I'll stick
      > to the facts in hopes that they may be enlightening enough.
      >
      > 1565 - 1700: The Colony of Virginia initially settled Jamestown
      > between 1565 and 1607 and they were not of any Christian faith but
      > many rather of Pagan variety. The Hudson River, New Amsterdam,
      > Manhattan Island and later New Sweden Colonies settled between
      1614
      > and 1638 all following the old European faiths and religions and
      > again not Christian. It wasn't until the Pilgrim's Plymouth Colony
      > in 1620 that Christianity set foot on U.S. soil and they were in
      > very small percentage.
      >
      > 1700s: John J. Robinson, "Freemasonry had been a powerful force
      for
      > religious freedom." Freemasons took seriously the principle that
      men
      > should worship according to their own conscious. Masonry welcomed
      > anyone from any religion or non-religion, as long as they believed
      > in a Supreme Being. Washington, Franklin, Hancock, Hamilton,
      > Lafayette, and many others accepted Freemasonry.
      >
      > 1800: Robert T. Handy, "No more than 10 percent-- probably less--
      of
      > Americans in 1800 were members of congregations."
      >
      > I don't really think anything after the first 250 years can be
      > considered Early America.
      >
      >
      > The U.S. Constitution:
      >
      > The Constitution holds no reference to any religion in particular
      > and appeals to no God, Christianity, Jesus Christ, or any other
      > supreme being for that matter. Nothing; Nowhere; Zilch! The
      > Constitution was derived For The People and By The People and
      again
      > no God was ever indicated. The only time that religion is brought
      up
      > was here in our 1st Amendment rights.
      >
      > "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
      religion,
      > or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom
      > of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably
      to
      > assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of
      > grievances."
      >
      >
      > Founding Fathers, Patriots and Governmental Purpose:
      >
      > The U.S. Founding Fathers and Patriots were NOT primarily
      Christian.
      > The U.S. Government was not formed for Christian goals.
      >
      > Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding
      the
      > Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to
      > pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not
      God
      > is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted
      that
      > he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I
      never
      > disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen
      > married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when
      the
      > judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan
      > agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the
      > judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and
      the
      > laws those "written in the great book of nature."
      >
      > "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the
      > supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be
      classed
      > with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of
      > Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson (letter to J. Adams April 11,1823)
      >
      > The early presidents and patriots were for the most part Deists or
      > Unitarians. Most believed in some form of impersonal Providence
      and
      > rejected the divinity of Jesus Christ and considered the Old and
      New
      > testaments "absurd".
      >
      > George Washington, the first president of the United States, never
      > declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or
      in
      > any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the
      > cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When
      > John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was
      > invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned
      > Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the
      > appointment. On his deathbed, Washington uttered no words of a
      > religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in
      > attendance.
      >
      > John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study
      > of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman.
      He
      > wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant
      > achievements" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of
      some
      > absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the
      course
      > of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking
      > out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were
      > no religion in it!"
      >
      > Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of
      > Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now
      living
      > in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to
      > the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:
      > The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled
      to
      > every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the
      > mysticism of Plato, materials with which they might build up an
      > artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit
      > everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and
      > introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines
      which
      > flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension
      > of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the
      > Platonism engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that
      > nonsense can never be explained."
      >
      > James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution,
      was
      > not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage
      shackles
      > and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble
      > enterprise." "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal
      > establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its
      > fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the
      > Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both,
      superstition,
      > bigotry and persecution."
      >
      > Wil Hatfield, Sr.
      > President - The
      > Association of United Pagans
      > http://www.aupagans.org
      >
      > Sources:
      > Recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith.
      > http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c110:3:./temp/~c1103HikbU::
      >
      > Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40
      > (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p.
      352
      > of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled
      by
      > American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage
      Press,
      > Inc., New York, NY.)
      >
      > George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87,
      > 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press,
      > Dallas, TX)
      >
      > The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North
      > Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles
      > Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own
      Words,
      > edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY)
      > Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference
      > to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp
      Jr.,
      > pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to
      > Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.
      >
      > Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453
      > (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by
      TJ
      > to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate
      > Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD)
      > quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.
      >
      > The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New
      > York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1,
      1774,
      > and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph
      > Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial
      and
      > Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > "You laugh because I'm different.
      > I cry because you are all the same."
      >
      > For northwest Illinois and southwest Wisconsin Pagans:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Four_Winds_Sanctuary/
      > Check out our web site!
      > http://www.fourwindssanctuary.org/
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
      >
    • Paula/MamaCat
      Thanks Wil. I have always wondered if people we vote in to office are perhaps insane in order to take the job. Now I know they are. I have never in my life
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 13, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Thanks Wil.
        I have always wondered if people we vote in to office are perhaps insane in order to take the job. Now I know they are. I have never in my life seen such a load of bullsh.... ever. I DO intend to take this up with my representive here in IL. This is absolutely ludecrous!
        Mama Cat, floored at this....

        Wil Hatfield <wilhatfield@...> wrote:
        It's in the sources but here it is again:
        Recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith.
        http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:h.res.00847:
        If that URL doesn't work because of line wrapping try this tinyurl:
        http://tinyurl.com/2bpvgo

        Wil /|\


        --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, Paula/MamaCat
        wrote:
        >
        > Please give a web page address, as I can not find this in the
        pages I have looked at.
        > Mama Cat
        >
        > Wil Hatfield wrote:
        > I must say that I am just completely CHILLED TO THE BONE in
        regards
        > to "H.Res. Bill 847 - Recognizing the importance of Christmas and
        > the Christian faith" which was passed on December 11th, 2007. This
        > bill and its H.R. passing have brought a tear to my eye for my
        > fellow Pagans and our continuous struggle towards equality under
        the
        > U.S. Constitution.
        >
        > Resolved, That the House of Representatives--
        >
        > (1) recognizes the Christian faith as one of the great religions
        of
        > the world;
        > (2) expresses continued support for Christians in the United
        States
        > and worldwide;
        > (3) acknowledges the international religious and historical
        > importance of Christmas and the Christian faith;
        > (4) acknowledges and supports the role played by Christians and
        > Christianity in the founding of the United States and in the
        > formation of the western civilization;
        > (5) rejects bigotry and persecution directed against Christians,
        > both in the United States and worldwide; and
        > (6) expresses its deepest respect to American Christians and
        > Christians throughout the world.
        >
        > My points shall follow:
        >
        > (1) How can ANY religion be recognized as being a "great religion
        of
        > the world" when the word "great" itself is determined only by ones
        > own perspective? I for one think that haggis is great, but does
        that
        > mean that it is a "great food of the world" and should be
        considered
        > so to the entire planet as dictated by the U.S. Government? Yes, a
        > large portion of Ireland still thinks haggis is great, but Ireland
        > is but a small portion of planet Earth.
        >
        > (2) How can the House express continued support for Christians
        when
        > there was no support in the first place? When did the House vote
        on
        > the initial support of Christians in the United States and
        > worldwide? It didn't happen, because it would be a direct
        violation
        > of the U.S. Constitution, the First Amendment and Separation of
        > Church and State just as this bill is a violation.
        >
        > (3) What are the criteria being applied here to the
        word "religious
        > and historical importance" and who wrote and voted on those those
        > criteria? And what does Christmas have to do with Christians
        anyhow.
        > Jesus of Nazareth was born in Bethlehem when the shepherds had
        their
        > flocks in the fields. They would have turned to sheep-sicles in
        > December. Christ was most likely born around April, with September
        > being the last possible month with enough warmth.
        >
        > (4) How absurd! The US was founded on religious freedom. That
        > doesn't mean religious freedom as long as it is a Christian
        > denomination. It means FREEDOM to choose whatever religious path
        > fits your spiritual needs period.
        >
        > (5) So we Pagan and other non-abrahamaic folks can continue to be
        > attacked by bigots and persecuted for our beliefs, but the House
        > will defend any Christian from bigotry and persecution. What a
        > wonderful bill and resolution this is.
        >
        > (6) American Christians and Christians throughout the world are
        > deserving of the House's deepest respect, BUT THE REST OF US
        > AREN'T?! I will be back shortly to finish this article. I think I
        > smell smoke probably from the hordes burning down my house! The
        one
        > I own and pay taxes on! How can the House not equally extend
        respect
        > to all religious preferences?
        >
        >
        > THIS BILL IS AN UTTER SHAM AND AN ILLEGAL ACTION BY THE HOUSE OF
        > REPRESENTATIVES! HERE IS WHY!
        >
        > Declaration of Independence and (yes I'll say it) our Pagan
        country:
        >
        > Our forefathers desired freedom from of the laws of both English
        > Monarchy, the Catholic Church and any other form of organized
        > Christianity. They wanted freedom from taxation and freedom to
        > worship in their own places in their own ways. This is EXTREMELY
        > obvious and evident in our Declaration of Independence.
        >
        > "When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one
        > people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them
        > with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the
        > separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of
        > Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of
        > mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel
        > them to the separation."
        >
        > Natures God and Natures Laws. Not laws as dictated by any church
        nor
        > laws passed by the House which dictate that one religion is better
        > than another. They wanted equal station Pagan and Christian alike,
        > so that no single dictating God or church thereof could establish
        > power over the people of America.
        >
        >
        > Christianity of Early America:
        >
        > There was none! Ok, "none" is an extreme word here and just a
        > byproduct of my extreme frustration of H.Res. Bill 847. I'll stick
        > to the facts in hopes that they may be enlightening enough.
        >
        > 1565 - 1700: The Colony of Virginia initially settled Jamestown
        > between 1565 and 1607 and they were not of any Christian faith but
        > many rather of Pagan variety. The Hudson River, New Amsterdam,
        > Manhattan Island and later New Sweden Colonies settled between
        1614
        > and 1638 all following the old European faiths and religions and
        > again not Christian. It wasn't until the Pilgrim's Plymouth Colony
        > in 1620 that Christianity set foot on U.S. soil and they were in
        > very small percentage.
        >
        > 1700s: John J. Robinson, "Freemasonry had been a powerful force
        for
        > religious freedom." Freemasons took seriously the principle that
        men
        > should worship according to their own conscious. Masonry welcomed
        > anyone from any religion or non-religion, as long as they believed
        > in a Supreme Being. Washington, Franklin, Hancock, Hamilton,
        > Lafayette, and many others accepted Freemasonry.
        >
        > 1800: Robert T. Handy, "No more than 10 percent-- probably less--
        of
        > Americans in 1800 were members of congregations."
        >
        > I don't really think anything after the first 250 years can be
        > considered Early America.
        >
        >
        > The U.S. Constitution:
        >
        > The Constitution holds no reference to any religion in particular
        > and appeals to no God, Christianity, Jesus Christ, or any other
        > supreme being for that matter. Nothing; Nowhere; Zilch! The
        > Constitution was derived For The People and By The People and
        again
        > no God was ever indicated. The only time that religion is brought
        up
        > was here in our 1st Amendment rights.
        >
        > "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
        religion,
        > or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom
        > of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably
        to
        > assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of
        > grievances."
        >
        >
        > Founding Fathers, Patriots and Governmental Purpose:
        >
        > The U.S. Founding Fathers and Patriots were NOT primarily
        Christian.
        > The U.S. Government was not formed for Christian goals.
        >
        > Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding
        the
        > Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to
        > pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not
        God
        > is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted
        that
        > he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I
        never
        > disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen
        > married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when
        the
        > judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan
        > agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the
        > judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and
        the
        > laws those "written in the great book of nature."
        >
        > "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the
        > supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be
        classed
        > with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of
        > Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson (letter to J. Adams April 11,1823)
        >
        > The early presidents and patriots were for the most part Deists or
        > Unitarians. Most believed in some form of impersonal Providence
        and
        > rejected the divinity of Jesus Christ and considered the Old and
        New
        > testaments "absurd".
        >
        > George Washington, the first president of the United States, never
        > declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or
        in
        > any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the
        > cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When
        > John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was
        > invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned
        > Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the
        > appointment. On his deathbed, Washington uttered no words of a
        > religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in
        > attendance.
        >
        > John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study
        > of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman.
        He
        > wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant
        > achievements" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of
        some
        > absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the
        course
        > of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking
        > out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were
        > no religion in it!"
        >
        > Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of
        > Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now
        living
        > in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to
        > the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:
        > The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled
        to
        > every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the
        > mysticism of Plato, materials with which they might build up an
        > artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit
        > everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and
        > introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines
        which
        > flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension
        > of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the
        > Platonism engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that
        > nonsense can never be explained."
        >
        > James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution,
        was
        > not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage
        shackles
        > and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble
        > enterprise." "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal
        > establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its
        > fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the
        > Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both,
        superstition,
        > bigotry and persecution."
        >
        > Wil Hatfield, Sr.
        > President - The
        > Association of United Pagans
        > http://www.aupagans.org
        >
        > Sources:
        > Recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith.
        > http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c110:3:./temp/~c1103HikbU::
        >
        > Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40
        > (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p.
        352
        > of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled
        by
        > American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage
        Press,
        > Inc., New York, NY.)
        >
        > George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87,
        > 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press,
        > Dallas, TX)
        >
        > The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North
        > Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles
        > Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own
        Words,
        > edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY)
        > Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference
        > to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp
        Jr.,
        > pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to
        > Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.
        >
        > Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453
        > (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by
        TJ
        > to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate
        > Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD)
        > quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.
        >
        > The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New
        > York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1,
        1774,
        > and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph
        > Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial
        and
        > Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > "You laugh because I'm different.
        > I cry because you are all the same."
        >
        > For northwest Illinois and southwest Wisconsin Pagans:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Four_Winds_Sanctuary/
        > Check out our web site!
        > http://www.fourwindssanctuary.org/
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
        >





        Yahoo! Groups Links

        <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pagan-Headstone-Campaign/

        <*> Your email settings:
        Individual Email | Traditional

        <*> To change settings online go to:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pagan-Headstone-Campaign/join
        (Yahoo! ID required)

        <*> To change settings via email:
        mailto:Pagan-Headstone-Campaign-digest@yahoogroups.com
        mailto:Pagan-Headstone-Campaign-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

        <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        Pagan-Headstone-Campaign-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




        "You laugh because I'm different.
        I cry because you are all the same."

        For northwest Illinois and southwest Wisconsin Pagans:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Four_Winds_Sanctuary/
        Check out our web site!
        http://www.fourwindssanctuary.org/


        Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

      • Heather
        Wil, That is some SERIOUSLY scary legislation. Thanks so much for passing it on to the rest of us. I m going to forward this information to everyone I know
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 14, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Wil,

          That is some SERIOUSLY scary legislation. Thanks so much for passing
          it on to the rest of us.

          I'm going to forward this information to everyone I know and urge them
          to argue it with their Representatives.

          (Is the ACLU aware of this, by the way??)

          Blessings,
          Heather
        • Morgan
          ... Frankly, Heather, it s too late. It s already passed as a house resolution. It s not exactly legislation. It s a proclamation. It s got the same legal
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 14, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "Heather"
            <heather.greywolf@...> wrote:
            >
            > Wil,
            >
            > That is some SERIOUSLY scary legislation. Thanks so much for passing
            > it on to the rest of us.
            >
            > I'm going to forward this information to everyone I know and urge them
            > to argue it with their Representatives.

            Frankly, Heather, it's too late.
            It's already passed as a house resolution.

            It's not exactly legislation.
            It's a proclamation.

            It's got the same legal standing as when Governor Argeo Paul Cellucci
            passed a resolution declaring Oct 31 199X (don't remember, but it was
            when I was a lodge officer) to be the Commonwealth of Massachusetts
            Freemason day.

            Sure, it pisses you off, but it doesn't change any law.
            Let me say that again: it doesn't change ANY law.

            Morgan
          • Wil Hatfield
            Morgan, Agreed it is a resolution and not a law. Though I disagree that it doesn t change a law . The law it changes is the First Amendment. The more people
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 16, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Morgan,

              Agreed it is a resolution and not a law. Though I disagree that it
              doesn't "change a law". The law it changes is the First Amendment.
              The more people look away while this violation of Separation of
              Church and State occurs the easier it will be for them when they
              start trying to make laws that work directly against our freedoms.

              Even several open-minded christian leaders have stated "I don't need
              Congress to tell me something I already know". Exactly. A christian
              who is confident in his/her path doesn't need a House Resolution to
              tell them that which their path already tells them is true. It is a
              waste of taxpayer money and clearly just another R.R. tactic to make
              claims to US soil.

              Blessings,

              Wil



              --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "Morgan"
              <pierceheart@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "Heather"
              > <heather.greywolf@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Wil,
              > >
              > > That is some SERIOUSLY scary legislation. Thanks so much for
              passing
              > > it on to the rest of us.
              > >
              > > I'm going to forward this information to everyone I know and
              urge them
              > > to argue it with their Representatives.
              >
              > Frankly, Heather, it's too late.
              > It's already passed as a house resolution.
              >
              > It's not exactly legislation.
              > It's a proclamation.
              >
              > It's got the same legal standing as when Governor Argeo Paul
              Cellucci
              > passed a resolution declaring Oct 31 199X (don't remember, but it
              was
              > when I was a lodge officer) to be the Commonwealth of Massachusetts
              > Freemason day.
              >
              > Sure, it pisses you off, but it doesn't change any law.
              > Let me say that again: it doesn't change ANY law.
              >
              > Morgan
              >
            • Morgan
              ... How? The first amendment says, in part: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 17, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "Wil Hatfield"
                <wilhatfield@...> wrote:
                >
                > Morgan,
                >
                > Agreed it is a resolution and not a law. Though I disagree that it
                > doesn't "change a law". The law it changes is the First Amendment.

                How?

                The first amendment says, in part:
                "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
                or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

                This resolution, which you admit is NOT a law, does not establish a
                religion, nor does it prevent me from practicing mine.

                This resolution neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg.

                > The more people look away while this violation of Separation of
                > Church and State occurs the easier it will be for them when they
                > start trying to make laws that work directly against our freedoms.

                It's a stupid resolution, but it does NOT change the first amendment
                in one whit, nor does it enable any other change.

                So long as we have a second amendment, my first amendment rights are
                secure.

                Morgan
              • gypsy
                If it is not a law. Why did they spend so much time on it? This looks like some folks, that call themselves christian, disrespecting others. It is most
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 18, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  If it is not a law. Why did they spend so much time on it? This looks
                  like some folks, that call themselves christian, disrespecting others.
                  It is most definitly a waste of my tax dollars. Think how much time
                  and effert went into this resolution. How much of that was payed for
                  with tax dollars from folks who would rather their money went elsewhere?

                  Maybe they are just breaking the ground for a new project.

                  peace and light to all
                  gypsy
                • MAHADA COUGAR
                  When 847IH got to the floor, Congress agreed to suspend the rules and pass the Resolution. The vote was an overwhelming 372 to 9! It crossed party lines and
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 18, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    When 847IH got to the floor, Congress agreed to suspend the rules and pass the Resolution.  The vote was an overwhelming 372 to 9!  It crossed party lines and few raised any objections to it.
                     
                    Let me state that resolutions do not become law.  This was not a bill before Congress, which would eventually go to the Senate Floor and then to the President to sign.  There are currently no laws, which specifically outlaw Paganism.  But a resolution expresses the sentiments of our national leaders and what they feel is important for the present and the future.
                     
                    First, HRes847IH sets the stage for a theocracy, by defining a philosophy.  With as many people in the House of Representatives voting in favor of the resolution and so few voting against it, it sends two messages to the people of the US:
                     
                    1.We don’t have to follow the Constitution in anything we pass.  We have control and do not have to answer to our constituents.
                     
                    2. We believe that Christianity should be the national religion and we are building a basis for this theocracy.
                     
                    Am I paranoid?  Paranoia is defined as having an irrational or unfounded fear.  This is not paranoia.  The stage was being set as far back as Lyndon Johnson.  As a senator in 1954, he proposed certain changes to the IRS code, which affected non-profit organizations, such that they may not be allowed to engage in political activity, nor can they take an active political stance. This included churches and ministers.  By enacting such a law Johnson’s amendment made all religious organizations responsible to the Federal Government for tax purposes.  In 2002, Congress voted NOT to rescind what has been dubbed Johnson’s Gag Order.  Remember, he was a Democrat.  The move toward re-establishing this country as a theocracy has nothing to do with party lines.  With the sentiments toward Christianity expressed in recent years by Reagan, Bush Sr. and the current president the foundation is being built for a theocracy.    I believe that the next steps will look something like this:
                     
                    1. Christian Holidays will become National Holidays.  Don’t expect a lot of flack over this one.  What it will mean to the common citizen is that they’ll get paid for not working on those days, no matter what their religious affiliation (sound familiar?).
                     
                    2. The word ‘Religion’ will be re-defined for legal purposes.  They’re going to have to re-define the word so that laws can be enacted and upheld in court. It will mean re-interpreting the First Amendment of the Constitution.  The word ‘religion’ will have to include only monotheistic terminology and lean solely in the direction of Judeo-Christianity.  This will give a legal nod toward Islam, but that’s where the definition will end.
                     
                    3. No church or minister outside the State sanctioned religion(s) will be afforded protection under the First Amendment.  This means that any 501(c)3 organization with a religious foundation can have their status revoked if they do not convert.
                     
                    Will we as Pagans be rousted from our beds in the middle of the night and shipped off to concentration camps?  Will we be forced to wear Pentacle armbands in public?  I doubt it.  It’s more likely that it will be allowable to ask one’s religious affiliation on a job application and to deny employment based on that alone.
                     
                    Will we be forced to join Christian churches and keep our true religion a secret? Well, England, Spain and Germany have all done this, at one time or another, to the Jews.  It worked there for awhile.
                     
                    Will we be denied education? That one, too, is possible.  But I’m stretching and looking too far out in the possible future.  But, remember that IF no 501(c)3 religious organization can be recognized outside of Christianity, it means that no Pagan schools will be able to grant state recognized education.
                     
                    This resolution puts Paganism at risk, politically and legally.  The fact that we have little or no voice with our own elected officials does not bode well for us.
                     
                    What are our options?
                    1. Buckle.  Take the hit and go underground.  Change our names and have our children baptized in the nearest Methodist Church.  Now THAT’S paranoid.
                    2. Sue.  But I guaranty that any lawsuit will not change the sentiments of the members of Congress.  I also guaranty that such a suit will be tied up in court longer than Pentacle Rights was.
                    3. Invite your national leaders to your Circles, Sabbats and events.  And continue to invite them.  Somewhere down the line one of them will have the courage to come and sit down with us.  Let your representatives know that their own constituents are of a different faith than what they assume.  Let them know that their stance on religious issues has taken a nasty turn, where the First Amendment is concerned.  Make them aware that we are civic-minded and community-conscious.  Let them know that we are caring people.  And be civil about it.
                    Sincerely,
                    Rev Bradley Murphey
                     
                     


                    gypsy <gypsyroserebel@...> wrote:
                    If it is not a law. Why did they spend so much time on it? This looks
                    like some folks, that call themselves christian, disrespecting others.
                    It is most definitly a waste of my tax dollars. Think how much time
                    and effert went into this resolution. How much of that was payed for
                    with tax dollars from folks who would rather their money went elsewhere?

                    Maybe they are just breaking the ground for a new project.

                    peace and light to all
                    gypsy



                    Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

                  • Eric Roberts
                    A resolution is more of a statement.just like the resolutions against the war in Iraq many cities have made. It has no force of law to do anything other than
                    Message 9 of 11 , Dec 18, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment

                      A resolution is more of a statement…just like the resolutions against the war in Iraq many cities have made.  It has no force of law to do anything other than make a statement.  But yes…you are right…it is a colossal waste of time and tax dollars. The answer to your question…100% of it was paid for by tax dollars that could have been put to a better purpose.

                       

                      Eric

                       

                      From: Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gypsy
                      Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:06 AM
                      To: Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [Pagan-Headstone-Campaign] Re: House of Representatives vs The U.S. Constitution

                       

                      If it is not a law. Why did they spend so much time on it? This looks
                      like some folks, that call themselves christian, disrespecting others.
                      It is most definitly a waste of my tax dollars. Think how much time
                      and effert went into this resolution. How much of that was payed for
                      with tax dollars from folks who would rather their money went elsewhere?

                      Maybe they are just breaking the ground for a new project.

                      peace and light to all
                      gypsy

                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.