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Re: [Pagan-Headstone-Campaign] ACLU sues VA

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  • George Dunn
    Indeed, it came on suddenly. I surmise it was the Americans United letter of the 27th threatening litigation that provided the impetus for ACLU to mobilize.
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 30, 2006
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      Indeed, it came on suddenly. I surmise it was the Americans United letter
      of the 27th threatening litigation that provided the impetus for ACLU to
      mobilize. Since they are the first to actually file, I imagine the history
      books will describe them as "leading" the campaign, despite the many years
      in which they weren't interested, but we all know how that goes, right? It
      has to be a strange sensation for them, since their focus in recent years
      has been in REMOVING religious symbols from public view, but whatever their
      motivations, let's all give them a "hubba hubba" for this effort. After
      all, what's that they say about examining the dental condition of a
      gratuitous equine?

      George


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Christopher Blackwell" <myrddin@...>
      To: <Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 10:18 PM

      > WASHINGTON -- The American Civil Liberties Union today filed a lawsuit to
      > protect the> right of veterans and their families to choose religious
      symbols to engrave on
      > headstones> in federal cemeteries.


      > I think this one surprised many people. I had not even heard any hints.
      >
      > So the ACLU is suing and soon the Americans United probably will have its
      suit.
      > Two very big organizations suing the VA in our name.
    • Charles P. Arnold
      ... United letter of the 27th threatening litigation that provided the impetus for ACLU to mobilize. That, plus Pete has seen how many of the headlines
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 1, 2006
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        --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "George Dunn"
        <mindeditor@...> wrote:
        >
        > Indeed, it came on suddenly. I surmise it was the Americans
        United letter of the 27th threatening litigation that provided the
        impetus for ACLU to mobilize.


        That, plus Pete has seen how many of the headlines Wisconsin has
        been getting lately and he likely lit a fire under his friends at
        the ACLU.


        > Since they are the first to actually file, I imagine the history
        books will describe them as "leading" the campaign, despite the many
        years in which they weren't interested, but we all know how that
        goes, right?


        Yes, we do. And while I support Pete, Selena and the rest of the
        BNPs who have come out on the issue, I know who the real heroes are.
        Rosemary is a real hero here, So, too, is Roberta. And so are the
        long time members of this group who have written the letters,
        distributed the information, and made total pains in the ass of
        themselves on behalf of all Pagan veterans.

        I know that this group and its membership have not always been
        popular, with politicans, veterans organizations or even the
        majority of the Pagan community. But we all gladly paid that price
        because we felt the responsibility for what we did and for those
        whom we represented.

        Hold your heads up folks. Without us kicking butt Selena/Circle/LLL,
        Pete/ATC, Americans United, the ACLU and all the rest would still be
        sitting on their butts ignoring the entire issue and hoping that is
        would just go away.


        > It has to be a strange sensation for them, since their focus in
        recent years has been in REMOVING religious symbols from public
        view, but whatever their motivations, let's all give them a "hubba
        hubba" for this effort. After all, what's that they say about
        examining the dental condition of a gratuitous equine?


        While I consider most of what happened during the first two years of
        our effort by the majority of 'leaders in our community to be the
        activities of that same equine's upper aft segment, I will take help
        wherever I can find it.
      • Christopher Blackwell
        ... Remember though this aso means severa years of hard work by another group of Wiccan organizations. So when have you seen two groups o Wiccans keep their
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 1, 2006
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          --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "George Dunn" <mindeditor@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Indeed, it came on suddenly. I surmise it was the Americans United letter
          > of the 27th threatening litigation that provided the impetus for ACLU to
          > mobilize. Since they are the first to actually file, I imagine the history
          > books will describe them as "leading" the campaign, despite the many years
          > in which they weren't interested, but we all know how that goes, right? It
          > has to be a strange sensation for them, since their focus in recent years
          > has been in REMOVING religious symbols from public view, but whatever their
          > motivations, let's all give them a "hubba hubba" for this effort. After
          > all, what's that they say about examining the dental condition of a
          > gratuitous equine?
          >
          > George
          Remember though this aso means severa years of hard work by another group
          of Wiccan organizations. So when have you seen two groups o Wiccans keep
          their act together long enough to get something like thts accomplished.

          Looks like we are ready to start herding cats, something considered as difficult
          as getting various Wiccan grups to work together.

          Another thing that may have pushed ACLU's hand. The bill passing and heading
          to the president to sign that would deny the ACLU and other groups to claim any
          legal costs in fighting religious misue by government. So it is sort of now or never.

          That represents another several years of court fights the constitutionality of the
          new law. Destrying the ACLU and Americans United is the goal that the Religious
          right has been trying for for several years and that is the purpose of the new law,
          first on religous matters the perhaps simlar laws on environmental and civil rights
          groups, workers rights and so forth. this new law sets a precident and one can expect
          them to quickly follow up with similar laws while they still have the power to do so.

          Just as the anti-abortion groups are announcing their attacks on the availability of any
          form of birth control.

          The next few years are going to be very busy. If they can't do it whole hog, then they
          will do it piece by piece and hope nobody is smart enough to notice.

          The full fledge attack on the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is now full speed ahead.

          Blessed Be,

          Christopher
        • Rev Cal Lippitt (Aidan Odinson)
          Christopher, you may well have just uttered The Understatement Of The New Millennium! Picture this if you will: If the first application for the Pentacle had
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 1, 2006
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            Christopher, you may well have just uttered The Understatement Of The New Millennium!
             
            Picture this if you will:  If the first application for the Pentacle had gotten a rubber-stamp approval, it would have been done without so much as a whimper and nobody would have paid it much attention.  But what do we have now instead?  I see people and groups working together who at one time did not seem able to work together.  And what have we learned?  We are learning that we can work together without homogenizing ourselves!  All that, and setting aside any differences when there is work that needs to be done, too!
             
            The US Department of Veterans Affairs has managed to do something for us that we probably could never have done for ourselves.   They provided us with an issue which we can unite about.  In their stupidity, they could not have done more for us if they had been on our payroll!
             
            Now that we are learning to work together, imagine what else we might be able to do!
             
            Blessed Be!
            Aidan Odinson


            From: Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Blackwell
            Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 11:18 PM
            To: Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Pagan-Headstone-Campaign] ACLU sues VA


            Veterans Denied Right to Post Religious Symbol on Headstones, ACLU Charges
            (9/29/2006)

            FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
            CONTACT: media@...
            WASHINGTON -- The American Civil Liberties Union today filed a lawsuit to
            protect the
            right of veterans and their families to choose religious symbols to engrave on
            headstones
            in federal cemeteries. The lawsuit was filed on behalf of two churches and three
            individuals to compel the government to approve a long-pending application for
            use of a
            Wiccan symbol on the headstones of service members.

            http://www.aclu. org/religion/ discrim/26970prs 20060929. html
            ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
            ACLU press release

            I think this one surprised many people. I had not even heard any hints.

            So the ACLU is suing and soon the Americans United probably will have its suit.
            Two very big organizations suing the VA in our name.

            Two different groups of Wiccan churches and organizations getting their acts
            together enough to pull ths off. I think we are seeing history made.

            Blessed Be,

            Christopher

          • Stormy Windwalker
            I agree George!! ACLU had given me the toughest of times when I was leading a group fighting for religious anti-defamation. I am glad they are fighting this
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 1, 2006
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              I agree George!!  ACLU had given me the toughest of
              times when I was leading a group fighting for religious
              anti-defamation. 
               
              I am glad they are fighting this with us and not against
              us this time...
               
              Stormy Windwalker
               
              -------Original Message-------
               
              Date: 10/01/06 00:52:02
              Subject: Re: [Pagan-Headstone-Campaign] ACLU sues VA
               

              Indeed, it came on suddenly. I surmise it was the Americans United letter
              of the 27th threatening litigation that provided the impetus for ACLU to
              mobilize. Since they are the first to actually file, I imagine the history
              books will describe them as "leading" the campaign, despite the many years
              in which they weren't interested, but we all know how that goes, right? It
              has to be a strange sensation for them, since their focus in recent years
              has been in REMOVING religious symbols from public view, but whatever their
              motivations, let's all give them a "hubba hubba" for this effort. After
              all, what's that they say about examining the dental condition of a
              gratuitous equine?

              George

              .

               
            • Christopher Blackwell
              ... Often to discover your strength, you must first be tested. Nothing like resistance and frustration to build focus and determination. Blessed Be,
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 3, 2006
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                --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "Rev Cal Lippitt \(Aidan Odinson
                \)" <lordaidan@...> wrote:
                >
                > Christopher, you may well have just uttered The Understatement Of The New
                > Millennium!
                >
                > Picture this if you will: If the first application for the Pentacle had
                > gotten a rubber-stamp approval, it would have been done without so much as a
                > whimper and nobody would have paid it much attention. But what do we have
                > now instead? I see people and groups working together who at one time did
                > not seem able to work together. And what have we learned? We are learning
                > that we can work together without homogenizing ourselves! All that, and
                > setting aside any differences when there is work that needs to be done, too!
                >
                >
                > Blessed Be!
                > Aidan Odinson

                Often to discover your strength, you must first be tested.

                Nothing like resistance and frustration to build focus and determination.

                Blessed Be,

                Christopher
              • Walter Hardin,Jr
                aidan, Thats all true,however the problem is keeping everyone together after we have won our right. Blessings, walt ... Often to discover your strength, you
                Message 7 of 15 , Oct 4, 2006
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                  aidan,
                  Thats all true,however the problem is keeping everyone together after we have won our right.
                   
                  Blessings,
                  walt

                  Christopher Blackwell <myrddin@...> wrote:
                  --- In Pagan-Headstone- Campaign@ yahoogroups. com, "Rev Cal Lippitt \(Aidan Odinson
                  \)" <lordaidan@. ..> wrote:
                  >
                  > Christopher, you may well have just uttered The Understatement Of The New
                  > Millennium!
                  >
                  > Picture this if you will: If the first application for the Pentacle had
                  > gotten a rubber-stamp approval, it would have been done without so much as a
                  > whimper and nobody would have paid it much attention. But what do we have
                  > now instead? I see people and groups working together who at one time did
                  > not seem able to work together. And what have we learned? We are learning
                  > that we can work together without homogenizing ourselves! All that, and
                  > setting aside any differences when there is work that needs to be done, too!
                  >
                  >
                  > Blessed Be!
                  > Aidan Odinson

                  Often to discover your strength, you must first be tested.

                  Nothing like resistance and frustration to build focus and determination.

                  Blessed Be,

                  Christopher



                  How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

                • Rev Cal Lippitt
                  And that is precisely why I made a point of pointing it out! We re in a position to gain much more than that which should have been ours from the beginning. BB
                  Message 8 of 15 , Oct 4, 2006
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                    And that is precisely why I made a point of pointing it out!

                    We're in a position to gain much more than that which should have been ours from the beginning.

                    BB
                    Aidan Odinson

                    >From: "Walter Hardin,Jr" <rarewolf01@...>
                    >Date: 2006/10/04 Wed AM 10:45:46 CDT
                    >To: Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: Re: [Pagan-Headstone-Campaign] Re: ACLU sues VA

                    >
                    >aidan, Thats all true,however the problem is keeping everyone together after we have won our right.   Blessings, walt
                    >
                    >Christopher Blackwell <myrddin@...> wrote: --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "Rev Cal Lippitt \(Aidan Odinson<BR>\)" <lordaidan@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Christopher, you may well have just uttered The Understatement Of The New
                    >> Millennium!
                    >>
                    >> Picture this if you will: If the first application for the Pentacle had
                    >> gotten a rubber-stamp approval, it would have been done without so much as a
                    >> whimper and nobody would have paid it much attention. But what do we have
                    >> now instead? I see people and groups working together who at one time did
                    >> not seem able to work together. And what have we learned? We are learning
                    >> that we can work together without homogenizing ourselves! All that, and
                    >> setting aside any differences when there is work that needs to be done, too!
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Blessed Be!
                    >> Aidan Odinson
                    >
                    >Often to discover your strength, you must first be tested.
                    >
                    >Nothing like resistance and frustration to build focus and determination.
                    >
                    >Blessed Be,
                    >
                    >Christopher
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.
                  • George Dunn
                    I m waiting for Charles to ring in, but over the months, he s been pretty clear that the PHC is to be an ad hoc, one-mission,
                    Message 9 of 15 , Oct 4, 2006
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                      I'm waiting for Charles to ring in, but over the months, he's been pretty
                      clear that the PHC is to be an ad hoc, one-mission,
                      go-like-Cincinnatus-back-to-the-plow sort of operation.

                      George

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Rev Cal Lippitt" <lordaidan@...>
                      To: <Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 1:03 PM
                      Subject: Re: Re: [Pagan-Headstone-Campaign] Re: ACLU sues VA


                      And that is precisely why I made a point of pointing it out!

                      We're in a position to gain much more than that which should have been ours
                      from the beginning.

                      BB
                      Aidan Odinson

                      >From: "Walter Hardin,Jr" <rarewolf01@...>
                      >Date: 2006/10/04 Wed AM 10:45:46 CDT
                      >To: Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [Pagan-Headstone-Campaign] Re: ACLU sues VA

                      >
                      >aidan, Thats all true,however the problem is keeping everyone together
                      after we have won our right. Blessings, walt
                      >
                      >Christopher Blackwell <myrddin@...> wrote: --- In
                      Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "Rev Cal Lippitt \(Aidan
                      Odinson<BR>\)" <lordaidan@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> Christopher, you may well have just uttered The Understatement Of The New
                      >> Millennium!
                      >>
                      >> Picture this if you will: If the first application for the Pentacle had
                      >> gotten a rubber-stamp approval, it would have been done without so much
                      as a
                      >> whimper and nobody would have paid it much attention. But what do we have
                      >> now instead? I see people and groups working together who at one time did
                      >> not seem able to work together. And what have we learned? We are learning
                      >> that we can work together without homogenizing ourselves! All that, and
                      >> setting aside any differences when there is work that needs to be done,
                      too!
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Blessed Be!
                      >> Aidan Odinson
                      >
                      >Often to discover your strength, you must first be tested.
                      >
                      >Nothing like resistance and frustration to build focus and determination.
                      >
                      >Blessed Be,
                      >
                      >Christopher
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call
                      rates.




                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • Rev Cal Lippitt
                      The treasure is not nearly as much in any one organization itself as it is in the fact that we are finally learning how to set aside any other differences and
                      Message 10 of 15 , Oct 5, 2006
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                        The treasure is not nearly as much in any one organization itself as it is in the fact that we are finally learning how to set aside any other differences and work together when the need is there.

                        I remember when that seemed to be a far-off dream. We are gaining that now, and that goes beyond any named group or its charter. That we need to nurture long after this issue is settled.

                        Blessed Be!
                        Aidan Odinson


                        >From: George Dunn <mindeditor@...>
                        >Date: 2006/10/04 Wed PM 04:41:10 CDT
                        >To: Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: Re: Re: [Pagan-Headstone-Campaign] Re: ACLU sues VA

                        >
                        >I'm waiting for Charles to ring in, but over the months, he's been pretty
                        >clear that the PHC is to be an ad hoc, one-mission,
                        >go-like-Cincinnatus-back-to-the-plow sort of operation.
                        >
                        >George
                        >
                        >----- Original Message -----
                        >From: "Rev Cal Lippitt" <lordaidan@...>
                        >To: <Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com>
                        >Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 1:03 PM
                        >Subject: Re: Re: [Pagan-Headstone-Campaign] Re: ACLU sues VA
                        >
                        >And that is precisely why I made a point of pointing it out!
                        >
                        >We're in a position to gain much more than that which should have been ours
                        >from the beginning.
                        >
                        >BB
                        >Aidan Odinson
                        >
                        >>From: "Walter Hardin,Jr" <rarewolf01@...>
                        >>Date: 2006/10/04 Wed AM 10:45:46 CDT
                        >>To: Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com
                        >>Subject: Re: [Pagan-Headstone-Campaign] Re: ACLU sues VA
                        >
                        >>
                        >>aidan, Thats all true,however the problem is keeping everyone together
                        >after we have won our right. Blessings, walt
                        >>
                        >>Christopher Blackwell <myrddin@...> wrote: --- In
                        >Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "Rev Cal Lippitt \(Aidan
                        >Odinson<BR>\)" <lordaidan@...> wrote:
                        >>>
                        >>> Christopher, you may well have just uttered The Understatement Of The New
                        >>> Millennium!
                        >>>
                        >>> Picture this if you will: If the first application for the Pentacle had
                        >>> gotten a rubber-stamp approval, it would have been done without so much
                        >as a
                        >>> whimper and nobody would have paid it much attention. But what do we have
                        >>> now instead? I see people and groups working together who at one time did
                        >>> not seem able to work together. And what have we learned? We are learning
                        >>> that we can work together without homogenizing ourselves! All that, and
                        >>> setting aside any differences when there is work that needs to be done,
                        >too!
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> Blessed Be!
                        >>> Aidan Odinson
                        >>
                        >>Often to discover your strength, you must first be tested.
                        >>
                        >>Nothing like resistance and frustration to build focus and determination.
                        >>
                        >>Blessed Be,
                        >>
                        >>Christopher
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call
                        >rates.
                        >
                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                      • Christopher Blackwell
                        ... we are finally learning how to set aside any other differences and work together when the need is there. ... goes beyond any named group or its charter.
                        Message 11 of 15 , Oct 5, 2006
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                          --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, Rev Cal Lippitt <lordaidan@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > The treasure is not nearly as much in any one organization itself as it is in the fact that
                          we are finally learning how to set aside any other differences and work together when the
                          need is there.
                          >
                          > I remember when that seemed to be a far-off dream. We are gaining that now, and that
                          goes beyond any named group or its charter. That we need to nurture long after this issue
                          is settled.
                          >
                          > Blessed Be!
                          > Aidan Odinson

                          I think we have some serious people that were tired of the BS and searched out
                          some other serious people. Such people do not have to be the majority, just be
                          determined enough to make it happen. If they succeed others will jump on the
                          band wagon. It is a case of teaching by doing, rather than preaching.

                          It means putting aside personal egos, and personal dislikes. It is realizing that
                          even the credit is not important, just getting something done is.

                          Even big things like the American Revolution only required that a third of the
                          people fully support it. You don't need a majority to make it happen, nor
                          should you wait for the majority. Start it and get it going, once it happens,
                          most will want to be on the winning side anyway.

                          Blessed Be,

                          Christopher
                        • Charles P. Arnold
                          ... after we have won our right. ... Let me step outside of my usual role here to say a few words on this. If we are really going to keep a community together,
                          Message 12 of 15 , Oct 5, 2006
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                            --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "Walter Hardin,Jr"
                            <rarewolf01@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > aidan,
                            > Thats all true,however the problem is keeping everyone together
                            after we have won our right.
                            >
                            > Blessings,
                            > walt

                            Let me step outside of my usual role here to say a few words on
                            this. If we are really going to keep a community together, one of
                            the first things we are going to have to do is examine our
                            differences. We can't just keep playing the "we're really just the
                            same" game. We must not only admit our differences but build on them
                            and then interact as a collective of different religions.

                            If you are familiar with the various stages of childhood
                            development, you will understand what we, as a community, are facing.

                            Only once we are strong in ourselves and our differences can we come
                            together in mutual respect, each Pagan path for the others.
                          • Charles P. Arnold
                            ... pretty ... That is exactly correct, George. As we have seen over the last few years, the current umbrella groups are so stuck in their histories and
                            Message 13 of 15 , Oct 5, 2006
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                              --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "George Dunn"
                              <mindeditor@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I'm waiting for Charles to ring in, but over the months, he's been
                              pretty
                              > clear that the PHC is to be an ad hoc, one-mission,
                              > go-like-Cincinnatus-back-to-the-plow sort of operation.
                              >
                              > George

                              That is exactly correct, George. As we have seen over the last few
                              years, the current umbrella groups are so stuck in their histories
                              and personalities that they have a very difficult time responding to
                              current issues. The ATC and Circle/LLL should have acted years ago
                              but they were so immersed in their politics that it was impossible.

                              This group will stay alive until we have emblems of spirit for not
                              only ourselves but for the Druids (the Awen) and for the Heathen. At
                              that time we will have achieved the goals for which the group was
                              formed and we will disband.

                              Instead of what we see today in the way of organizations what I feel
                              we need are strong organizations representing the different Pagan
                              paths and orders, along with special interest groups such as MPN.
                              Once we have progressed to that level, these various organizations
                              can then create real umbrella groups that work together (or not) on
                              a national and international level.

                              It is beyond time for a newlevel of maturity in our community.
                            • Connie
                              Hello Charles, ... Only once we are strong in ourselves and our differences can we come together in mutual respect, each Pagan path for the others. And - in
                              Message 14 of 15 , Oct 6, 2006
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                                Hello Charles,


                                Thursday, October 5, 2006, 7:42:11 PM, you wrote:


                                >

                                Only once we are strong in ourselves and our differences can we come 

                                together in mutual respect, each Pagan path for the others.


                                 


                                And  - in our diversity, we will find our greatest strength :-) 


                                Connie



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