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Re: [Pagan-Headstone-Campaign] Digest Number 708

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  • broceliand@aol.com
    In a message dated 5/8/2006 7:52:10 AM Mountain Standard Time, Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com writes: And then there is the absolutely heretical
    Message 1 of 23 , May 8 7:20 AM
      In a message dated 5/8/2006 7:52:10 AM Mountain Standard Time, Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com writes:
      And then there is the absolutely heretical idea of actually training
      people and then naming them clergy. Let's be really honest for a
      minute, that would drive this community into a hysterical hissy fit
      to end all hissy fits.
      I think it depends on whether it's exclusionary or not. IOW, not every tradition has the same beliefs. I think you can train people in things like "pastoral counseling" techniques without indoctrinating them in "this is the correct pantheon and method of worship." Some of the training would be both universal for pagans, or for *any* clergy. When you get down to the specifics of how and what to worship, you've got a different problem.
       
      Through the trees,
      Broceliande
    • Connie
      Hello Broceliand, You are very correct about some training would be universal - quite frankly, there has to be some method of screening out the pretentious;
      Message 2 of 23 , May 8 10:06 AM

        Hello Broceliand,


        You are very correct about "some training would be universal" - quite frankly, there has to be some method of screening out the pretentious; the 'holier-than-thou-(for whatever reason); the 'users' who would be dangerous in such a position of influence; and/or those who simply have no place in an official role of CLERGY...or an unofficial one for that matter :-p  


        There has to be some type of standard to which those who meet it are eligible to be called 'clergy', and those who do not, aren't - and for those who frock and ordain themselves at random, they should be dealt with in an appropriate manner by their peers for assuming a title that is not earned - same as one would do to deal with other variations of lying or stealing or impersonation or cheating, etc. (this is not meant to say such people are bad or evil - some are merely ignorant and need better guidance about what they are doing.) And for those who don't like such labeling, well, welcome to civilization and sharing real life with real people. Assuming a title, without anything substantial to back it up, is worthless, and cheapens the title for everyone, of every creed and flavor, even those who do have true value and a real foundation behind their stand (whatever it may be).


        (yes, I know my statements are 'heretical' - just by typing this I have caused hissy fits galore, conniptions, and several litters of kittens to be born unnaturally, without my even hitting 'send'!.. owell, the world can use a bit a few more 'kittens' born from political incorrectness... )


        I don't think such training has to be 'government sanctioned, FDA approved, one-size-fits-all', etc. That would be impossible. But I think each community has a responsibility to itself, AND to others, to develop a 'official' screening/training process of its own, and to make it matter. 


        Connie


        Monday, May 8, 2006, 5:20:51 PM, you wrote:


        >

        In a message dated 5/8/2006 7:52:10 AM Mountain Standard Time, Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com writes:

        And then there is the absolutely heretical idea of actually training 

        people and then naming them clergy. Let's be really honest for a 

        minute, that would drive this community into a hysterical hissy fit 

        to end all hissy fits.

        I think it depends on whether it's exclusionary or not. IOW, not every tradition has the same beliefs. I think you can train people in things like "pastoral counseling" techniques without indoctrinating them in "this is the correct pantheon and method of worship." Some of the training would be both universal for pagans, or for *any* clergy. When you get down to the specifics of how and what to worship, you've got a different problem. 

         

        Through the trees, 

        Broceliande





      • lady_emmachia
        I dont know about you guys, but when I meet someone who claims to be clergy and I would like to work with them, I ask them for thier lineage. It doesnt have to
        Message 3 of 23 , May 8 2:09 PM
          I dont know about you guys, but when I meet someone who claims to be
          clergy and I would like to work with them, I ask them for thier
          lineage.

          It doesnt have to be a spectacular lineage, but it does help me to
          understand if they are really trained or not. Anyone who is not
          willing to give thier lineage probably has something to be ashamed of.

          And on the flip side of that, if any one asks for my lineage, I am
          more than happy to provide it to them.

          Rona
        • MamaCat
          Rona, I agree with that, to a point. We started our own church back in 1999, so really have no linage. I can tell you who I studied with, what I studied, all
          Message 4 of 23 , May 8 2:30 PM
            Rona,
            I agree with that, to a point. We started our own church back in 1999, so really have no linage. I can tell you who I studied with, what I studied, all that, but that really doesn't tell you who I am now. It was because I couldn't find what I wanted that I started my own, and now have nine members in our inner court, and about 15 that are studying and hoping to join.
            We have our own rules, our own board, our own way of doing things. While I do understand about asking about someones linage, seeing where they are coming from, what do you think about groups like ours?
            Mama Cat

            lady_emmachia <emmachia@...> wrote:
            I dont know about you guys, but when I meet someone who claims to be
            clergy and I would like to work with them, I ask them for thier
            lineage.

            It doesnt have to be a spectacular lineage, but it does help me to
            understand if they are really trained or not. Anyone who is not
            willing to give thier lineage probably has something to be ashamed of.

            And on the flip side of that, if any one asks for my lineage, I am
            more than happy to provide it to them. 

            Rona


            "You laugh because I'm different.
            I cry because you are all the same."


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          • Connie
            Hello MamaCat, I ll jump in with my opinion if you don t mind - I think you just gave your lineage :-) ... and something of a glimpse of your training,
            Message 5 of 23 , May 8 2:58 PM

              Hello MamaCat,


              I'll jump in with my opinion if you don't mind - I think you just gave your 'lineage' :-) 


              ... and something of a glimpse of your training, history, and position in your community. 


              These things lend credit - especially if we were in a situation where we could hear from more than one person of your community - to your devotion. 


              Rona, you do have a great point - someone who is willing to say 'this is me' - one word, or eighty paragraphs - is someone who is comfortable with who they are. Of course, they could be lying, but it really is difficult to tell believable lies, much less LIVE them, openly, on any kind of long-term and consistent basis. But, unfortunately, some people can and will do this, which is why community validation is so important - albeit so tough to find sometimes in Pagan-land.  :-(  ah well, live, learn, grow :-) 


              I don't think I will ever call myself clergy until, after much more training and experience, I have enough people telling me that I am, so I can't find a valid argument against it anymore... until them, and probably afterwards, I am one of the choir - a seeker of wisdom, a teacher when I am able, etc. Not sure if I will ever be right for the role of clergy, but that's just me.   


              Connie


              Tuesday, May 9, 2006, 12:30:12 AM, you wrote:


              >

              Rona,

              I agree with that, to a point. We started our own church back in 1999, so really have no linage. I can tell you who I studied with, what I studied, all that, but that really doesn't tell you who I am now. It was because I couldn't find what I wanted that I started my own, and now have nine members in our inner court, and about 15 that are studying and hoping to join. 

              We have our own rules, our own board, our own way of doing things. While I do understand about asking about someones linage, seeing where they are coming from, what do you think about groups like ours?

              Mama Cat


              lady_emmachia <emmachia@...> wrote:

              I dont know about you guys, but when I meet someone who claims to be 

              clergy and I would like to work with them, I ask them for thier 

              lineage.


              It doesnt have to be a spectacular lineage, but it does help me to 

              understand if they are really trained or not. Anyone who is not 

              willing to give thier lineage probably has something to be ashamed of.


              And on the flip side of that, if any one asks for my lineage, I am 

              more than happy to provide it to them.  


              Rona






            • Paula/MamaCat
              Connie, Thank you. I too did not want the title of clergy, fought against it for quite some time, but finally gave in to group pressure. I formed a board when
              Message 6 of 23 , May 8 3:26 PM
                Connie,
                Thank you. I too did not want the title of clergy, fought against it for quite some time, but finally gave in to group pressure. I formed a board when I finally formed the church, and they have the right to fire me if I'm not doing a good job. Keeps me honest, so to speak. We are slowly weaning the church away from my sanctuary, which will be even better, since then it will be totally on it's own and not something I started. This is what I want to see, the church on it's own, able to supppot itself without me if it needed to. I will not be around forever, and don't want what I have built to come tumbling down simply because I have died.
                I am also going very slowly, as I want to make sure I have solid foundation before moving onward with this. The board agrees with me on this, and so we not only test our applicants, we also have them test us, to make sure we are all compatible. When all results are in, then we decide if that person is right for our church, and we are the right church for that person. I have only had one applicant disagree with us in the seven years we've been around, and have since found out that person is still trying on churches and groups for size, so feel better about that one. The others, we try and find a group or path they may be more comfortable with, and so far, that works well.
                 
                Okay, Sorry Charles, we kinda got off on a tangent here, back to work, I know.
                lol,
                Mama Cat

                onnie <qitty@...> wrote:
                Hello MamaCat,

                I'll jump in with my opinion if you don't mind - I think you just gave your 'lineage' :-) 

                ... and something of a glimpse of your training, history, and position in your community. 

                These things lend credit - especially if we were in a situation where we could hear from more than one person of your community - to your devotion. 

                Rona, you do have a great point - someone who is willing to say 'this is me' - one word, or eighty paragraphs - is someone who is comfortable with who they are. Of course, they could be lying, but it really is difficult to tell believable lies, much less LIVE them, openly, on any kind of long-term and consistent basis. But, unfortunately, some people can and will do this, which is why community validation is so important - albeit so tough to find sometimes in Pagan-land.  :-(  ah well, live, learn, grow :-) 

                I don't think I will ever call myself clergy until, after much more training and experience, I have enough people telling me that I am, so I can't find a valid argument against it anymore... until them, and probably afterwards, I am one of the choir - a seeker of wisdom, a teacher when I am able, etc. Not sure if I will ever be right for the role of clergy, but that's just me.   

                Connie


                "You laugh because I'm different.
                I cry because you are all the same."


                Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

              • lady_emmachia
                I think groups like yours are fantastic Mama Cat. Your group, by having so many members and by having been around since 1999 shows that you and your group are
                Message 7 of 23 , May 8 5:16 PM
                  I think groups like yours are fantastic Mama Cat. Your group, by
                  having so many members and by having been around since 1999 shows that
                  you and your group are stable and prosperous. You arent a fly-by-
                  night organization, which is something I encounter frequently.

                  Like I said, a lineage doesnt have to be spectacular, but it does have
                  to be like a resume or set of references. Obviously, you have people
                  who respect you and will vouch for your stability.

                  Rona






                  --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, MamaCat <mnshwct@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Rona,
                  > I agree with that, to a point. We started our own church back in
                  1999, so really have no linage. I can tell you who I studied with,
                  what I studied, all that, but that really doesn't tell you who I am
                  now. It was because I couldn't find what I wanted that I started my
                  own, and now have nine members in our inner court, and about 15 that
                  are studying and hoping to join.
                  > We have our own rules, our own board, our own way of doing things.
                  While I do understand about asking about someones linage, seeing where
                  they are coming from, what do you think about groups like ours?
                  > Mama Cat
                • lady_emmachia
                  ... work, I know. ... While it doesnt have much to do with headstones, it does make a valid point about leadership, clergy and making headway towards our
                  Message 8 of 23 , May 8 5:36 PM
                    >
                    > Okay, Sorry Charles, we kinda got off on a tangent here, back to
                    work, I know.
                    > lol,
                    > Mama Cat


                    While it doesnt have much to do with headstones, it does make a
                    valid point about leadership, clergy and making headway towards our
                    goals.

                    Time always tells who is legit and who isnt. Time also tells who is
                    a good volunteer, leader or a barking squirrel.

                    BUT-- Even our most unrespected faux leaders should get the same
                    equal rights as the most unrespected faux Christian leaders. That
                    is the most important issue.

                    Respectability is nice, but not required for equal access and equal
                    opportunity. If only the respectable got the goods, the earth would
                    be a very different place.

                    Rona
                  • Rev. Eric Roberts
                    why? Just because Gerald Gardner is in your lineage, doesn t mean that you are not a complete idiot ;-0 (not referring to you of course hehehe) Eric _____
                    Message 9 of 23 , May 8 8:53 PM
                      why?  Just because Gerald Gardner is in your lineage, doesn't mean that you are not a complete idiot ;-0 (not referring to you of course hehehe)
                       
                      Eric


                      From: Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lady_emmachia
                      Sent: Monday, 08 May 2006 16:10
                      To: Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [Pagan-Headstone-Campaign] Re: clergy

                      I dont know about you guys, but when I meet someone who claims to be
                      clergy and I would like to work with them, I ask them for thier
                      lineage.

                      It doesnt have to be a spectacular lineage, but it does help me to
                      understand if they are really trained or not. Anyone who is not
                      willing to give thier lineage probably has something to be ashamed of.

                      And on the flip side of that, if any one asks for my lineage, I am
                      more than happy to provide it to them. 

                      Rona




                    • George Dunn
                      True, true, but human beings being status-conscious creatures, we consider whatever qualification we ve got the most of the really important one. In youth,
                      Message 10 of 23 , May 8 9:17 PM
                        True, true, but human beings being status-conscious creatures, we consider whatever qualification we've got the most of the really important one.  In youth, both personal and organizational, we tend to preach democracy and merit; if we can lay claim to venerable history (again, personal or organizational), then the glories of tradition seem to shine most brightly.
                         
                        What complicates the situation is that there are worthies and rascals in both dimensions.  Every sincere visionary has to elbow his way out of the crowd of charlatans and false prophets and every scholarly sage is surrounded by obstructionists and fuddy-duddies.  What's more, anybody who thinks he has a simple sieve for straining the gems out of the gravel is kidding himself.
                         
                        George
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 10:53 PM
                        Subject: RE: [Pagan-Headstone-Campaign] Re: clergy

                        why?  Just because Gerald Gardner is in your lineage, doesn't mean that you are not a complete idiot ;-0 (not referring to you of course hehehe)
                         
                        Eric
                      • lady_emmachia
                        ... that you ... hehehe) ... Gerald s not in my lineage....I m afraid I am one of those boring Isians who trace thier lineage back to Olivia Durden Robertson
                        Message 11 of 23 , May 9 6:16 AM
                          --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "Rev. Eric Roberts"
                          <woad@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > why? Just because Gerald Gardner is in your lineage, doesn't mean
                          that you
                          > are not a complete idiot ;-0 (not referring to you of course
                          hehehe)
                          >
                          > Eric


                          Gerald's not in my lineage....I'm afraid I am one of those boring
                          Isians who trace thier lineage back to Olivia Durden Robertson (that
                          being said...watch "Stargate" and you'll understand about 90% of her
                          writings....he he he).

                          Isis Isis, Ra Ra Ra!

                          And trust me, we have PLENTY of idiots in the Isian tradition too.
                          ("I'm the 13th reincarnation of Cleopatra!"...."Oh Really? So you're
                          a Ptolemy."....."Uhh...What is a Ptolemy?". Stumps them every
                          time!!)

                          Rona
                        • lady_emmachia
                          What s more, anybody who thinks he has a simple sieve for straining the gems out of the gravel is kidding himself. ... Oh Goddess no George. That is where the
                          Message 12 of 23 , May 9 6:22 AM
                            What's more, anybody who thinks he has a simple sieve for straining
                            the gems out of the gravel is kidding himself.
                            >
                            > George


                            Oh Goddess no George. That is where the "Time sorts out the barking
                            squirrels" comes in. I have met some people who were highly
                            recommended to me only to find out later they were total turds.

                            As they say around here...you cant polish a turd, but you shure' can
                            cover one up. That being said , it's only a matter of time before the
                            stink leaks out of course. :^)

                            'Shame we cant compost our community turds.

                            Rona
                          • George Dunn
                            ... From: lady_emmachia To: Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 8:16 AM Subject:
                            Message 13 of 23 , May 9 9:06 AM
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "lady_emmachia" <emmachia@...>
                              To: <Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 8:16 AM
                              Subject: [Pagan-Headstone-Campaign] Re: clergy

                              > And trust me, we have PLENTY of idiots in the Isian tradition too.
                              > ("I'm the 13th reincarnation of Cleopatra!"...."Oh Really? So you're
                              > a Ptolemy."....."Uhh...What is a Ptolemy?". Stumps them every
                              > time!!)
                              >
                              > Rona
                              >

                              Don't Ptolemy YOU'RE Cleopatra, too!

                              George
                            • Pete Barrington
                              Ptolemy all about it! Cosmo ... Isian tradition too. ... Really? So you re ... Stumps them every ... when new email arrives ...
                              Message 14 of 23 , May 9 10:32 AM
                                Ptolemy all about it!
                                Cosmo
                                --- Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com
                                <mindeditor@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "lady_emmachia" <emmachia@...>
                                > To: <Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 8:16 AM
                                > Subject: [Pagan-Headstone-Campaign] Re: clergy
                                >
                                > > And trust me, we have PLENTY of idiots in the
                                Isian tradition too.
                                > > ("I'm the 13th reincarnation of Cleopatra!"...."Oh
                                Really? So you're
                                > > a Ptolemy."....."Uhh...What is a Ptolemy?".
                                Stumps them every
                                > > time!!)
                                > >
                                > > Rona
                                > >
                                >
                                > Don't Ptolemy YOU'RE Cleopatra, too!
                                >
                                > George
                                >
                                >
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                              • Pete Barrington
                                I LOVE Stargate! Cosmo ... Rev. Eric Roberts ... lineage, doesn t mean ... of course ... those boring ... Robertson (that ... about 90% of her ... tradition
                                Message 15 of 23 , May 9 10:36 AM
                                  I LOVE Stargate!
                                  Cosmo
                                  --- Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com
                                  <emmachia@...> wrote:
                                  > --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com,
                                  "Rev. Eric Roberts"
                                  > <woad@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > why? Just because Gerald Gardner is in your
                                  lineage, doesn't mean
                                  > that you
                                  > > are not a complete idiot ;-0 (not referring to you
                                  of course
                                  > hehehe)
                                  > >
                                  > > Eric
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Gerald's not in my lineage....I'm afraid I am one of
                                  those boring
                                  > Isians who trace thier lineage back to Olivia Durden
                                  Robertson (that
                                  > being said...watch "Stargate" and you'll understand
                                  about 90% of her
                                  > writings....he he he).
                                  >
                                  > Isis Isis, Ra Ra Ra!
                                  >
                                  > And trust me, we have PLENTY of idiots in the Isian
                                  tradition too.
                                  > ("I'm the 13th reincarnation of Cleopatra!"...."Oh
                                  Really? So you're
                                  > a Ptolemy."....."Uhh...What is a Ptolemy?".
                                  Stumps them every
                                  > time!!)
                                  >
                                  > Rona
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                  >
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                                • Charles P. Arnold
                                  ... every ... things like ... is the ... be both ... specifics of how ... How about training them in a variety of Pagan traditions, pantheons, worship
                                  Message 16 of 23 , May 9 12:21 PM
                                    --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, broceliand@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I think it depends on whether it's exclusionary or not. IOW, not
                                    every
                                    > tradition has the same beliefs. I think you can train people in
                                    things like
                                    > "pastoral counseling" techniques without indoctrinating them in "this
                                    is the
                                    > correct pantheon and method of worship." Some of the training would
                                    be both
                                    > universal for pagans, or for *any* clergy. When you get down to the
                                    specifics of how
                                    > and what to worship, you've got a different problem.

                                    How about training them in a variety of Pagan traditions, pantheons,
                                    worship rituals, etc. other than their own and not revealing oath bound
                                    material, so that they can do the job even better?
                                  • Charles P. Arnold
                                    ... every ... things like ... is the ... Ooops! Wouldn t that mean that we have to admit that there are different Pagan paths, that we are not really all the
                                    Message 17 of 23 , May 9 12:23 PM
                                      --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, broceliand@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I think it depends on whether it's exclusionary or not. IOW, not
                                      every
                                      > tradition has the same beliefs. I think you can train people in
                                      things like
                                      > "pastoral counseling" techniques without indoctrinating them in "this
                                      is the
                                      > correct pantheon and method of worship."


                                      Ooops! Wouldn't that mean that we have to admit that there are
                                      different Pagan paths, that we are not really all the same? And
                                      wouldn't this require academic training with all that involves?
                                    • Charles P. Arnold
                                      ... That is one of my first questions as well. Then I go on to ask them where they got their degrees. ... Anyone who will not give me their lineage is written
                                      Message 18 of 23 , May 9 12:33 PM
                                        --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "lady_emmachia"
                                        <emmachia@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I dont know about you guys, but when I meet someone who claims to be
                                        > clergy and I would like to work with them, I ask them for thier
                                        > lineage.


                                        That is one of my first questions as well. Then I go on to ask them
                                        where they got their degrees.


                                        > It doesnt have to be a spectacular lineage, but it does help me to
                                        > understand if they are really trained or not. Anyone who is not
                                        > willing to give thier lineage probably has something to be ashamed of.


                                        Anyone who will not give me their lineage is written off, ESPECIALLY
                                        when they claim to be of one of the British orders.


                                        > And on the flip side of that, if any one asks for my lineage, I am
                                        > more than happy to provide it to them.


                                        A chaplain needs more than traditional training, they need training in
                                        psychology, sociology, counselling, small group dynamics, bookkeeping,
                                        death and dying, drug and alcohol abuse, sex and mental abuse, a little
                                        bit of law, and about two dozen other things.
                                      • Charles P. Arnold
                                        ... that you ... On the other hand, very few valid 3* initiates are idiots and there are reasons having to do with who is elevated and who isn t, and why.
                                        Message 19 of 23 , May 9 12:36 PM
                                          --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, "Rev. Eric Roberts"
                                          <woad@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > why? Just because Gerald Gardner is in your lineage, doesn't mean
                                          that you
                                          > are not a complete idiot ;-0 (not referring to you of course hehehe)
                                          >
                                          > Eric
                                          >
                                          On the other hand, very few valid 3* initiates are idiots and there are
                                          reasons having to do with who is elevated and who isn't, and why.

                                          Let's be realistic for a moment. Any Pagan who leads a group of more
                                          than a handful of people should have training at least equal to that of
                                          most other ministers of a variety of faiths. I said this in 1982 and I
                                          still say it today.
                                        • Paula/MamaCat
                                          Charles, for once I agree with you. This is why I fought so hard to NOT be called a minister, and when the group insisted, started taking regular ministers
                                          Message 20 of 23 , May 9 12:46 PM
                                            Charles, for once I agree with you. This is why I fought so hard to NOT be called a minister, and when the group insisted, started taking regular ministers training. I still am uncomfortable with it, and usually refer to myself as a Minister in training.
                                            mama cat

                                            "Charles P. Arnold" <charlesparnold@...> wrote:
                                            .

                                            Let's be realistic for a moment. Any Pagan who leads a group of more
                                            than a handful of people should have training at least equal to that of
                                            most other ministers of a variety of faiths. I said this in 1982 and I
                                            still say it today.



                                            "You laugh because I'm different.
                                            I cry because you are all the same."


                                            Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

                                          • Rebecca Austin
                                            ... But if you know a good number of people in the Pagan community, you can get a good idea of what the person knows and practices. Most trads lineages can
                                            Message 21 of 23 , May 9 1:49 PM
                                              Rev. Eric Roberts wrote:
                                              > why? Just because Gerald Gardner is in your lineage, doesn't mean
                                              > that you are not a complete idiot ;-0 (not referring to you of course
                                              > hehehe)
                                              But if you know a good number of people in the Pagan community, you can
                                              get a good idea of what the person knows and practices. Most trads'
                                              lineages can be verified through various groups online. If I know that
                                              someone says that XYZ initiated them, and I know other of XYZ's
                                              initiates, or XYZ, I'll have an idea of what requirements you had to
                                              meet, and what you know. While this does have the drawback of there not
                                              being a system for recognizing bootstrap traditions, and that
                                              unfortunatly there are occassionally frauds or people who have gone a
                                              completely different direction than how they were trained, its really
                                              not that different than when you see the diploma on the wall, if you
                                              know what to look for.

                                              Rebecca
                                            • Rev. Eric Roberts
                                              it still doesn t guarantee that XYZ wasn t a hack either...although I have been initiated into a Gardnerian trad...I really don;t hold much sway with lineage.
                                              Message 22 of 23 , May 9 7:16 PM
                                                it still doesn't guarantee that XYZ wasn't a hack either...although I have been initiated into a Gardnerian trad...I really don;t hold much sway with lineage.  It doesn't require that you went through the coven BS to be a good priest/ess.
                                                 
                                                Eric


                                                From: Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rebecca Austin
                                                Sent: Tuesday, 09 May 2006 15:49
                                                To: Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [Pagan-Headstone-Campaign] Re: clergy



                                                Rev. Eric Roberts wrote:
                                                > why?  Just because
                                                Gerald Gardner is in your lineage, doesn't mean
                                                > that you are not a
                                                complete idiot ;-0 (not referring to you of course
                                                > hehehe)
                                                But if you know a good number of people in the Pagan community, you can
                                                get a good idea of what the person knows and practices.  Most trads'
                                                lineages can be verified through various groups online.  If I know that
                                                someone says that XYZ initiated them, and I know other of XYZ's
                                                initiates, or XYZ, I'll have an idea of what requirements you had to
                                                meet, and what you know.  While this does have the drawback of there not
                                                being a system for recognizing bootstrap traditions, and that
                                                unfortunatly there are occassionally frauds or people who have gone a
                                                completely different direction than how they were trained, its really
                                                not that different than when you see the diploma on the wall, if you
                                                know what to look for.

                                                Rebecca



                                              • lady_emmachia
                                                (Big amount of sarcasm)...I m Xenobia reincarnated, the all-powerful African queen who battled against the Romans and lost. Cant you tell by my love for long
                                                Message 23 of 23 , May 10 10:55 AM
                                                  (Big amount of sarcasm)...I'm Xenobia reincarnated, the all-powerful
                                                  African queen who battled against the Romans and lost. Cant you
                                                  tell by my love for long shot battles? And screw the Ptolemies.
                                                  They were really just Greeks...Not the true lineage of Khemet. Cleo
                                                  can go suck eggs with Mark Anthony. (snort snort) -Rona :^P


                                                  --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, Pete Barrington
                                                  <lordtracker@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > I LOVE Stargate!
                                                  > Cosmo
                                                  > > Isis Isis, Ra Ra Ra!
                                                  > >
                                                  > > And trust me, we have PLENTY of idiots in the Isian
                                                  > tradition too.
                                                  > > ("I'm the 13th reincarnation of Cleopatra!"...."Oh
                                                  > Really? So you're
                                                  > > a Ptolemy."....."Uhh...What is a Ptolemy?".
                                                  > Stumps them every
                                                  > > time!!)
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Rona
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