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Re: [Pagan-Headstone-Campaign] Change in status

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  • RitBodyArt@aol.com
    Unless there is a clear and reasoned argument such action by members of either group, I, Charles Arnold, Moderator of the Pagan Veterans Headstone Campaign,
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 26, 2004
      Unless there is a clear and reasoned argument such action by members of either group, I, Charles Arnold, Moderator of the Pagan Veterans Headstone Campaign, will place this campaign under the auspices of the United Pagan Temples of America as a religious equality committee, as of September 1, 2004.

      The Pagan Veterans Headstone Campaign will maintain independence of action under the broad rules of the UPTA in that it will not break any local, state or federal statutes. The PVHC will alter its position in supporting various candidates for office (and opposing candidates as well) but it will maintain, and even raise its level of non-partisan political action.

      Any discussion of this decision should take place on either OR both lists.

      Explanation: The reason for uniting the PVHC and the UPTA is to slowly build a spiritual community structure even though such structures have been opposed by the Pagan community in the past. However, as this community slowly matures and begins to become aware of its own current and future needs it is my feeling that such knee jerk antipathy to laissez-faire organizations will become a thing of the past. We must realize that these groups, as single fingers, can accomplish little but that, when combined as all of the fingers of a hand, that hand can then reach out to shake the hand of government, of Christian groups, of political groups, as an equal.
    • Constance M. Reed
      One small step for man, a giant leap for Pagan-kind... Where is the site for UPTA? I wanted to read more about this group and no luck so far. Apparently UPTA
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 26, 2004
        One small step for man, a giant leap for Pagan-kind...

        Where is the site for UPTA? I wanted to read more about this group and
        no luck so far. Apparently UPTA is a common Spanish word or something
        because nearly all hits came back in Spanish!

        You make a great point in your last paragraph about alienating the
        government and other groups and the need to change this attitude.

        There is a huge tendency among the Pagans I have met (on-line and for
        real) that the government is 'they'. As in 'they do this' and 'they
        don't let us do that'... people truly need to understand.. what's the
        annoying psycho-babble word?...to 'internalize', that the
        government isn't a faceless machine. Its a bunch of buildings and
        offices with PEOPLE in them. 'They' are your neighbors, your kids'
        school friends' parents, the people you chat with in the store, the
        people wearing uniforms (soldiers, police, etc) that look out for your
        best interest, they are our Moms, Dads, brothers and sisters,
        sometimes 'they' are even Pagan, and so therefore, 'they' are really
        'us'. Its strange, but many people tend to forget this! It is true
        that most Pagans follow a dissimilar life path than the average
        American in many regards, but it doesn't mean we are less responsible
        for, or less connected to, the political policies and social issues of
        this nation we live in. We are 'they' and 'they' are ours. We have a
        right and responsibility to be a part of it all.

        Many Pagans get annoyed if you bring up politics, esp. in a debate,
        its OT they claim. But how can this be? Our lives are more than
        spirit, our spirit is affected by our physical environment, every
        aspect of which is impacted by the society in which we live.. and yea,
        politics are a huge aspect of that!

        Connie

        Thursday, August 26, 2004, 10:13:48 AM, you wrote:

        Rac> Unless there is a clear and reasoned argument such action
        Rac> by members of either group, I, Charles Arnold, Moderator of the
        Rac> Pagan Veterans Headstone Campaign, will place this campaign under
        Rac> the auspices of the United Pagan Temples of America as a
        Rac> religious equality committee, as of September 1, 2004.

        Rac> The Pagan Veterans Headstone Campaign will maintain
        Rac> independence of action under the broad rules of the UPTA in that
        Rac> it will not break any local, state or federal statutes. The PVHC
        Rac> will alter its position in supporting various candidates for
        Rac> office (and opposing candidates as well) but it will maintain,
        Rac> and even raise its level of non-partisan political action.

        Rac> Any discussion of this decision should take place on either OR both lists.

        Rac> Explanation: The reason for uniting the PVHC and the UPTA
        Rac> is to slowly build a spiritual community structure even though
        Rac> such structures have been opposed by the Pagan community in the
        Rac> past. However, as this community slowly matures and begins to
        Rac> become aware of its own current and future needs it is my feeling
        Rac> that such knee jerk antipathy to laissez-faire organizations will
        Rac> become a thing of the past. We must realize that these groups, as
        Rac> single fingers, can accomplish little but that, when combined as
        Rac> all of the fingers of a hand, that hand can then reach out to
        Rac> shake the hand of government, of Christian groups, of political
        Rac> groups, as an equal.
      • grambadger@juno.com
        ok, lets debate this; getting organized sucks all the fun out of turning away from organized religion, don t it? Charles argues, that it is high time for our
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 26, 2004
          ok, lets debate this;
          getting organized sucks all the fun out of turning away from organized religion, don't it?
           
          Charles argues, that it is high time for our aspect of the counter culture to take its place in the widening and shallowing, mainstream.
           
          Further, he wishes to add my name to his, as he takes part in a political campaign.
          Although a pagan headstone may be a good idea, and a pagan retirement program may be a good idea, I do not wish to be fodder in a political game of one-uping the numbers.
           
          I, for one, do not wish to tilt at the windmill of state, wearing the livery of church.  Society is replete with organizations just for tilters.  I have been looking at some of those.  Although i am sure there are others who are as disappointed with Bush's administration as I am, I still think this is not the venue for national politics.  What surprises me, is that I hear so little in the "community"  about the illustrious Mr. Mc Greevey ( I live in New Jersey).  If ever there where fodder to chew over alternative lifeways, politics, corruption, etc. This would be it!  is there discussion of local politics?
           
          No, the republican delites not me, nor democrate neither.
           
          Paragraph...
           
          While I have seen very few pagans live to retirement age, I have seen them who end up without any means of support.  More often though, I've seen rennies who end up alone, or dependent upon others "on the circuit"   Here i do not refer to persons like myself, who lead mainly conventioal lives, but persons who's life's are appart from society in some very real way.  A person may be nameless, homeless, or simpley without any ties to any local community, and so the rennies become his community.  So here is someone who has no government or natural family to fall back upon.  The rennies i was close to in those days, chose a simple solution to the retirement problem, they "got a life".     Which, by the way, is what i've done too.   Get a job, start a legitamate business, cultivate some real friendships, raise a family.  Cultivate some ties to your local (civil) community.
           
          Am I preaching;  "turn right and go strait"?  Maybe a little, but I am preaching, look after yourself, and those at arms' lenth from you.  Who do you church with now?  Who are they in circle with you?  Who are your natural family, and who are your adopted family?  I'm a firm believer in the local group.  I mean, the squad, is more that the army,  the local grove more than the national church,  the parish is more than the city.   the local level is where support systems must be cultivated first.  Your care in time of trouble, and your retirement plan are right there, chanting with you.
           
          Or not.
           
          Your Obt Svt, Grwm Broch ap Gawr(stepson)
           
           
           
          On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:13:48 EDT RitBodyArt@... writes:
          Unless there is a clear and reasoned argument such action by members of either group, I, Charles Arnold, Moderator of the Pagan Veterans Headstone Campaign, will place this campaign under the auspices of the United Pagan Temples of America as a religious equality committee, as of September 1, 2004.

          The Pagan Veterans Headstone Campaign will maintain independence of action under the broad rules of the UPTA in that it will not break any local, state or federal statutes. The PVHC will alter its position in supporting various candidates for office (and opposing candidates as well) but it will maintain, and even raise its level of non-partisan political action.

          Any discussion of this decision should take place on either OR both lists.

          Explanation: The reason for uniting the PVHC and the UPTA is to slowly build a spiritual community structure even though such structures have been opposed by the Pagan community in the past. However, as this community slowly matures and begins to become aware of its own current and future needs it is my feeling that such knee jerk antipathy to laissez-faire organizations will become a thing of the past. We must realize that these groups, as single fingers, can accomplish little but that, when combined as all of the fingers of a hand, that hand can then reach out to shake the hand of government, of Christian groups, of political groups, as an equal.

           

          "DOSIS SOLA FACIT VENENUM"
          Paracelsus (1493 - 1541) - "All substances are poisons; there is none which is not a poison.  The right dose differentiates a poison and a remedy."
        • Taith
          I for one find bringing people together very fun , or should I say fulfilling. It is form of creation, and as a bard I treasure all acts of creation. So
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 26, 2004
            I for one find bringing people together very 'fun', or should I say
            fulfilling. It is form of creation, and as a bard I treasure all acts of
            creation. So perhaps organizing a group is not the same as a poem. But
            to see people come together and draw strength and hope from their bonds,
            to me that is beautiful.

            I believe that local groups are very important, but lets face facts,
            sometimes to achieve your goals you have to open your arms a wee bit
            wider.

            Large parts of the civil rights movement were very local actions, but
            those local people often through churches had connections outside of
            their local community. Those connections led to more people joining up
            to support the local groups.

            Feel free to leave you name out of things. I don't really know what you
            mean by your accusation that Charles wants to add your name to his. He
            is seeking support for a cause. This list was created to support that
            cause. I have no idea what you mean about one-upping the numbers. And if
            you want to talk about NJ's Governor, start a list that deals with that,
            nothing is stopping you.

            I don't think I'm tilting at windmills, that implies that something is
            imposible. My very life is an exmple that anything is possible. I had to
            fight my high school for remedial education after a stroke left me with
            no memory of any writen language. I faught. I worked. I am writing to
            you now. I could have just given up and taken the Talking Books for the
            Blind and Disabled and been happy with that, it was an option.

            I assume a rennie is someone on the reneasance circut? Are you saying
            that pagans are people that don't have jobs, IRAs, 401ks and pensions? I
            have job, IRAs (bearly), a 401k, and company pension plan. That doesn't
            mean that when I get to the point that I can't live on my own that I
            will want to live in a group home with a bible thumper across the hall.
            I will want to live my last days in peace, not conflict. And if I don't
            have the money or the family support to be able to take care of myself,
            it might be nice if the community can help out, and I for one want to
            help out if I can. I have always believed in a few things. 1. If you are
            not part of the solution, your part of the problem. 2. Think globally,
            act locally.

            If you you take small strong steps in the battle in your local area,
            while being aware of the bigger picture, while communicating with others
            doing the same thing in their own neck of the woods what you achieve can
            be something wonderful and something that one person could not do alone.
            Have you ever looked at the panals of the AIDS Memorial Quilt? The whole
            quilt breaks down from a large national memorial, to smaller local
            segments, getting smaller and smaller and more personal.

            At the end of the day I want to take a step back and see my neighbors
            near and far and see the bigger picture.

            (* * * * * * *)
            Taith /|\ Carol Herrmann

            Three things from which never to be moved: one's Oaths, one's Gods, and the Truth.
            The three highest causes of the true human are: Truth, Honor, and Duty.
            Three candles that illuminate every darkness: Truth, Nature, and Knowledge.

            Starflower Coven - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StarflowerCoven/, Pagan Politics and Grassroots Campaigns - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pagan_grassroots/
          • Morgan
            ... I have another idea: If you don t like it, don t participate :-). I for one have no time to waste on people who get their jollies running down other
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 27, 2004
              At 07:01 PM 8/26/04, Grwm Broch ap Gawr wrote:
              >ok, lets debate this;

              I have another idea:

              If you don't like it, don't participate :-).

              I for one have no time to waste on people who get their jollies running
              down other people's ideas without offering any constructive alternatives.
              If there _was_ a constructive alternative in your post, it got lost in all
              the ranting about semi- and un-related issues.

              Bright blessings,
              Morgan /|\
              **********************************
              The three foundations of Druidism:
              Peace, Love, Justice.
              **********************************
              http://silver-gateway.com/grove/index.html
            • Rev. William E Livingston
              ... members of ... Headstone ... Pagan Temples of ... So its my understanding that the UPTA us up and legally running now. Could you please place some records
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 27, 2004
                --- In Pagan-Headstone-Campaign@yahoogroups.com, RitBodyArt@a...
                wrote:
                > Unless there is a clear and reasoned argument such action by
                members of
                > either group, I, Charles Arnold, Moderator of the Pagan Veterans
                Headstone
                > Campaign, will place this campaign under the auspices of the United
                Pagan Temples of
                > America as a religious equality committee, as of September 1, 2004.


                So its my understanding that the UPTA us up and legally running now.
                Could you please place some records in the file section. like non-
                profit status or bylaws. Or let us know what state you filed under
                and the officer.

                Edward
              • Morgan
                ... Well, on some lists politics _is_ off-topic, as might be many other things that are relevant to our overall lives. I m on many lists, and sometimes I like
                Message 7 of 8 , Aug 27, 2004
                  At 08:17 AM 8/26/04, you wrote:
                  >Many Pagans get annoyed if you bring up politics, esp. in a debate,
                  >its OT they claim. But how can this be? Our lives are more than
                  >spirit, our spirit is affected by our physical environment, every
                  >aspect of which is impacted by the society in which we live.. and yea,
                  >politics are a huge aspect of that!

                  Well, on some lists politics _is_ off-topic, as might be many other things
                  that are relevant to our overall lives. I'm on many lists, and sometimes I
                  like having a few where the political debates are absent and we can discuss
                  other things :-).

                  IMO, though, this list is political in nature to some extent, so some
                  political discussion is relevant. For example, I don't know that debating
                  the presidential candidates stands on, say, education, is relevant here
                  because this list is about headstones for vets. On a list for pagan
                  parents, OTOH, education is on-topic but the headstone issue probably
                  wouldn't be.

                  Rambling, too early in the morning ;-),
                  Morgan /|\
                  "My Life not Availeth Me In Comparison to the Liberty of the Truth" --Mary
                  Dyer, religious martyr and ancestress
                • Charles P. Arnold
                  As of 4:10 today all members have been removed from moderated status and are free to post. Please do not make me regret this decision in any particular case.
                  Message 8 of 8 , Sep 19, 2007
                    As of 4:10 today all members have been removed from moderated status
                    and are free to post. Please do not make me regret this decision in any
                    particular case.

                    Thank you

                    Charles Arnold
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