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Re: [PPLetterpress] Rollers up or down?

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  • Gerald Lange
    Jason There is a tag on the No. 4 machines that says to shut the machine off. Lift the rollers, then shut the machine off. Start the machine, drop the rollers.
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 19, 2008
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      Jason

      There is a tag on the No. 4 machines that says to shut the machine off.
      Lift the rollers, then shut the machine off. Start the machine, drop the
      rollers.

      It's needless wear and tear on the machine and the rollers to let
      everything stay running while you are out to lunch or talking on the phone.

      One of my students asked me why we had the machine running at all
      because that is not the way her employer required her to operate the
      press. That one was more than a little hard to believe as it sort of
      defeats the point of the roller mechanism but apparently done so to not
      waste precious energy though more likely lack of proper training.

      My experience has been that if you lift the roller carriage you will
      also have to take a reading of the roller height when you start up
      again. They can be thrown out of adjustment simply by this action.
      Especially on that little 15 of yours. The SP-15 requires lots of
      attentive roller height adjustment. Best to learn to enjoy the practice,
      just keep reminding yourself it's a hell of a lot easier than hand
      inking. A little stool at the end of the press is almost an essential
      press tool!!!

      Gerald
      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



      jason@... wrote:
      > OK, now that we're clear that Gerald isn't going anywhere (phew), here's my first question as a lesson in humility - that is, the question will reveal just how new to all of this I really am:
      >
      > While running the press but, let's say, taking a break or adjusting the form, is it better to life the roller carriage up (and non-turning), or leave it down (and turning)?
      >
      > A simple question to keep the ball (rollers) rolling... (or not)...
      >
      > Jason
      >
      > _________________________________
      >
      > Jason Dewinetz
      > Greenboathouse Press
      > www.greenboathouse.com
      >
      >
    • parallel_imp
      ... the form, is it better to life the roller carriage up (and non-turning), or leave it down (and turning)? Jason (I assume you are talking about a
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 19, 2008
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        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, <jason@...> wrote:

        > While running the press but, let's say, taking a break or adjusting
        the form, is it better to life the roller carriage up (and
        non-turning), or leave it down (and turning)?

        Jason (I assume you are talking about a Vandercook), most definitely
        up (out-of-contact) and non-turning. On the gear cover of Vandercooks
        with motorized inking is a label instructing us to do just that so we
        don't cause needless wear or dry out the ink.
        I often see Vandercooks left alone running for ten or twenty
        minutes, which is abuse in my opinion (especially on a Model 4). It
        only takes a few minutes to distribute ink, even less if it is worked
        with an ink knife on the slab as it should be.
        --Eric Holub, SF
      • jason@greenboathouse.com
        Thanks Gerald and Eric, Of course: wear; hadn t thought of that. Which is a good example of why this list is such a good thing: newbies like me get all excited
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 19, 2008
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          Thanks Gerald and Eric,

          Of course: wear; hadn't thought of that. Which is a good example of why this list is such a good thing: newbies like me get all excited at the smell of ink and the most obvious things fly out the window (huffing press-wash probably doesn't help).

          I'm running some proofing with the SP-15 today (the 15-21 is working fine), as I recently obtained the little one and had it apart to clean. I have to admit, those little knobs on the ink rollers (SP-15) make adjustments awfully easy. Gerald, thanks for the tip about checking the height after lifting the rollers; I'll keep an eye on that.

          I had noticed that the first roller (closest to the carriage) wouldn't lower far enough to touch the ink gauge. The metal brackets that lift the rollers must be bent as the second roller (furthest from the carriage) has lots of play, while the first simply won't lower enough to touch. I'm guessing I may have to take the brackets off and bend them a bit so that the end of the L's foot (of the bracket) doesn't bottom out, stopping the ankle joint from lowering fully (I have no idea if that makes sense).

          The press is printing wonderfully with metal, but I was having some issues with polymer (Boxcar base and adhesive-plates). The rollers kept hitting the plate, sometimes to the right, and sometimes at the bottom, and sometimes the base itself was getting inked, inches away from the plate (at the bottom). I was sure to set the rollers for a very light application, but after playing a bit I realized I was cranking the base in too tight with the quoin and lockup bar, which was popping the it up a bit. I should have known this as I was just reading Gerald's book last night, which warns of this issue.

          So, the polymer is working well now. Next up will be to crank up the 15-21 with the second colour and see how my registration skills are...

          Thanks for the quick notes & suggestions...

          Jason

          _________________________________

          Jason Dewinetz
          Greenboathouse Press
          www.greenboathouse.com



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: parallel_imp
          To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:56 PM
          Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Rollers up or down?


          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, <jason@...> wrote:

          > While running the press but, let's say, taking a break or adjusting
          the form, is it better to life the roller carriage up (and
          non-turning), or leave it down (and turning)?

          Jason (I assume you are talking about a Vandercook), most definitely
          up (out-of-contact) and non-turning. On the gear cover of Vandercooks
          with motorized inking is a label instructing us to do just that so we
          don't cause needless wear or dry out the ink.
          I often see Vandercooks left alone running for ten or twenty
          minutes, which is abuse in my opinion (especially on a Model 4). It
          only takes a few minutes to distribute ink, even less if it is worked
          with an ink knife on the slab as it should be.
          --Eric Holub, SF





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Gerald Lange
          Jason Be kind of careful fooling around with those L-brackets. They do get loose over time, and if really loosey-goosey, due need to be watched, but I m not
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 19, 2008
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            Jason

            Be kind of careful fooling around with those L-brackets. They do get
            loose over time, and if really loosey-goosey, due need to be watched,
            but I'm not sure that you can effectively "fix them." I'd say replace
            them (the entire unit) but that is a chunk of change. If you are adept
            at punching out the rivet and replacing it anew, maybe you can make
            them tighter but not sure this is advisable. I've never done it.

            If you are switching to another press for the second color, you are
            likely heading into a registration nightmare. Far too many reasons to
            go into here, but, I would not do that.

            Gerald
            http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


            >
            > I had noticed that the first roller (closest to the carriage)
            wouldn't lower far enough to touch the ink gauge. The metal brackets
            that lift the rollers must be bent as the second roller (furthest from
            the carriage) has lots of play, while the first simply won't lower
            enough to touch. I'm guessing I may have to take the brackets off and
            bend them a bit so that the end of the L's foot (of the bracket)
            doesn't bottom out, stopping the ankle joint from lowering fully (I
            have no idea if that makes sense).
            >

            >
            > So, the polymer is working well now. Next up will be to crank up the
            15-21 with the second colour and see how my registration skills are...
            >
            > Thanks for the quick notes & suggestions...
            >
            > Jason
            >
            > _________________________________
            >
            > Jason Dewinetz
            > Greenboathouse Press
            > www.greenboathouse.com
            >
            >
          • jason@greenboathouse.com
            Hi Gerald, No rivets involved, just thick-head screws. Attached is a photo of the part in question, and you can see how much lower the end of the L s foot
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 20, 2008
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              Hi Gerald,

              No rivets involved, just thick-head screws. Attached is a photo of the part in question, and you can see how much lower the end of the L's foot holds the outer roller compared to the inner roller, which is held much higher. What I'm thinking is to hold the brackets in a vise and slightly correct the right-angle, so that the foot of the L is more perpendicular, thereby allowing more up-and-down play in the adjustment of the inner roller.

              I did switch to the other press for the second colour, but the project is simply letterhead, so the registration was fairly simple (fitting one line of text in a second colour between two black lines - image also attached).

              Jason

              _________________________________

              Jason Dewinetz
              Greenboathouse Press
              www.greenboathouse.com


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Gerald Lange
              To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:47 PM
              Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Rollers up or down?


              Jason

              Be kind of careful fooling around with those L-brackets. They do get
              loose over time, and if really loosey-goosey, due need to be watched,
              but I'm not sure that you can effectively "fix them." I'd say replace
              them (the entire unit) but that is a chunk of change. If you are adept
              at punching out the rivet and replacing it anew, maybe you can make
              them tighter but not sure this is advisable. I've never done it.

              If you are switching to another press for the second color, you are
              likely heading into a registration nightmare. Far too many reasons to
              go into here, but, I would not do that.

              Gerald
              http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

              >
              > I had noticed that the first roller (closest to the carriage)
              wouldn't lower far enough to touch the ink gauge. The metal brackets
              that lift the rollers must be bent as the second roller (furthest from
              the carriage) has lots of play, while the first simply won't lower
              enough to touch. I'm guessing I may have to take the brackets off and
              bend them a bit so that the end of the L's foot (of the bracket)
              doesn't bottom out, stopping the ankle joint from lowering fully (I
              have no idea if that makes sense).
              >

              >
              > So, the polymer is working well now. Next up will be to crank up the
              15-21 with the second colour and see how my registration skills are...
              >
              > Thanks for the quick notes & suggestions...
              >
              > Jason
              >
              > _________________________________
              >
              > Jason Dewinetz
              > Greenboathouse Press
              > www.greenboathouse.com
              >
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • jason@greenboathouse.com
              It appears the list doesn t like attachments, so I ve posted the two photos mentioned in my last post to the photos section of the PPL list page:
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 20, 2008
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                It appears the list doesn't like attachments, so I've posted the two photos mentioned in my last post to the photos section of the PPL list page: http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/PPLetterpress/photos/browse/dcce

                Jason



                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Gerald Lange
                To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:47 PM
                Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Rollers up or down?


                Jason

                Be kind of careful fooling around with those L-brackets. They do get
                loose over time, and if really loosey-goosey, due need to be watched,
                but I'm not sure that you can effectively "fix them." I'd say replace
                them (the entire unit) but that is a chunk of change. If you are adept
                at punching out the rivet and replacing it anew, maybe you can make
                them tighter but not sure this is advisable. I've never done it.

                If you are switching to another press for the second color, you are
                likely heading into a registration nightmare. Far too many reasons to
                go into here, but, I would not do that.

                Gerald
                http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                >
                > I had noticed that the first roller (closest to the carriage)
                wouldn't lower far enough to touch the ink gauge. The metal brackets
                that lift the rollers must be bent as the second roller (furthest from
                the carriage) has lots of play, while the first simply won't lower
                enough to touch. I'm guessing I may have to take the brackets off and
                bend them a bit so that the end of the L's foot (of the bracket)
                doesn't bottom out, stopping the ankle joint from lowering fully (I
                have no idea if that makes sense).
                >

                >
                > So, the polymer is working well now. Next up will be to crank up the
                15-21 with the second colour and see how my registration skills are...
                >
                > Thanks for the quick notes & suggestions...
                >
                > Jason
                >
                > _________________________________
                >
                > Jason Dewinetz
                > Greenboathouse Press
                > www.greenboathouse.com
                >
                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • parallel_imp
                ...
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 20, 2008
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                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, <jason@...> wrote:

                  <<What I'm thinking is to hold the brackets in a vise and slightly
                  correct the right-angle, so that the foot of the L is more
                  perpendicular, thereby allowing more up-and-down play in the
                  adjustment of the inner roller.>>

                  Jason, yeah, that bracket is not correct. It should be a right-angle,
                  the support arm parallel to the bed. However, correcting that won't
                  solve the problem of the inner roller because that roller does have
                  support at the correct position. It is the outer roller that is
                  supported below the correct position. If the inner roller can't be
                  lowered to .918" its diameter may be too small. I don't recall the
                  correct diameter, might be 2.5", but at any rate it won't be in
                  eighths or sixteenths of an inch.
                  Does the end of the inner roller near the operator side adjust
                  lower than the gear end? At a certain point an undersize roller will
                  be stopped by the roller gear bottoming out in the bed gear rack.
                  Also, I don't see nyliners on the roller core (though you can see
                  one at the pivot point for the arm holding the rider rollers). Are
                  they present on the inner side of the block? If you need nyliners but
                  don't have them, the rollers will have some play in the bearer blocks.
                  --Eric Holub, SF
                • jason@greenboathouse.com
                  Hi Eric, Last question first: yes, nyliners on the inside (which is why you don t see them in the photo). As for the brackets, if you look closely at the
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 20, 2008
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                    Hi Eric,

                    Last question first: yes, nyliners on the inside (which is why you don't see them in the photo).

                    As for the brackets, if you look closely at the picture, specifically at the thick-head screws that hold it in place, you'll see that the bracket is not lowered as far as it should be - that is, the screw slots in the bracket itself show significant potential movement below where the screws appear in the photo. This is because the toe of the L is stopping the bracket from lowering any further when the rollers are set down. Thus, the first roller (closest to the carriage) is always held above type high, even when the adjustment knobs are lowered fully.

                    I've measured the rollers with a micrometer and each is within .03-.05 of 2.5" (that is, measuring from 2.45-2.47"), well within the range of adjustment it seems to me.

                    Jason






                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: parallel_imp
                    To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 9:33 AM
                    Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Rollers up or down?


                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, <jason@...> wrote:

                    <<What I'm thinking is to hold the brackets in a vise and slightly
                    correct the right-angle, so that the foot of the L is more
                    perpendicular, thereby allowing more up-and-down play in the
                    adjustment of the inner roller.>>

                    Jason, yeah, that bracket is not correct. It should be a right-angle,
                    the support arm parallel to the bed. However, correcting that won't
                    solve the problem of the inner roller because that roller does have
                    support at the correct position. It is the outer roller that is
                    supported below the correct position. If the inner roller can't be
                    lowered to .918" its diameter may be too small. I don't recall the
                    correct diameter, might be 2.5", but at any rate it won't be in
                    eighths or sixteenths of an inch.
                    Does the end of the inner roller near the operator side adjust
                    lower than the gear end? At a certain point an undersize roller will
                    be stopped by the roller gear bottoming out in the bed gear rack.
                    Also, I don't see nyliners on the roller core (though you can see
                    one at the pivot point for the arm holding the rider rollers). Are
                    they present on the inner side of the block? If you need nyliners but
                    don't have them, the rollers will have some play in the bearer blocks.
                    --Eric Holub, SF





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • parallel_imp
                    ...
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 20, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, <jason@...> wrote:
                      <<. . .the toe of the L is stopping the bracket from lowering any
                      further when the rollers are set down. Thus, the first roller (closest
                      to the carriage) is always held above type high, even when the
                      adjustment knobs are lowered fully.>>

                      OK Jason, then straightening the bracket arm should solve the problem,
                      as long as the vertical portion is kept true.
                      I am amazed you got any printing done at all the way it is now.
                      --Eric Holub, SF
                    • nagraph1
                      In terms or roller measurement, there is considerable difference between .03 to .05 on the minus side of 2.500. Measure to the thousandth and if a roller is
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 20, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        In terms or roller measurement, there is considerable difference
                        between .03 to .05 on the minus side of 2.500. Measure to the
                        thousandth and if a roller is actually at 2.450, it is undersize and
                        out of specification and thus can cause ink adjustment problems.
                        Original Vandercook specifications are for rollers to be made
                        oversize to allow for inevitable shrinkage so that the roller ends up
                        at the correct 2.500 diameter. In terms of machining and the way
                        these presses were designed, the difference between .03 to .05 is big
                        enough to drive a truck through. Take 2 rollers at that big a
                        measurement and it doubles the dimension problem. The solution may in
                        part require new rollers made to spec.

                        Fritz


                        > Hi Eric,
                        >
                        > Last question first: yes, nyliners on the inside (which is why you
                        don't see them in the photo).
                        >
                        > As for the brackets, if you look closely at the picture,
                        specifically at the thick-head screws that hold it in place, you'll
                        see that the bracket is not lowered as far as it should be - that is,
                        the screw slots in the bracket itself show significant potential
                        movement below where the screws appear in the photo. This is because
                        the toe of the L is stopping the bracket from lowering any further
                        when the rollers are set down. Thus, the first roller (closest to the
                        carriage) is always held above type high, even when the adjustment
                        knobs are lowered fully.
                        >
                        > I've measured the rollers with a micrometer and each is within .03-
                        .05 of 2.5" (that is, measuring from 2.45-2.47"), well within the
                        range of adjustment it seems to me.
                        >
                        > Jason
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: parallel_imp
                        > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 9:33 AM
                        > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Rollers up or down?
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, <jason@> wrote:
                        >
                        > <<What I'm thinking is to hold the brackets in a vise and slightly
                        > correct the right-angle, so that the foot of the L is more
                        > perpendicular, thereby allowing more up-and-down play in the
                        > adjustment of the inner roller.>>
                        >
                        > Jason, yeah, that bracket is not correct. It should be a right-
                        angle,
                        > the support arm parallel to the bed. However, correcting that
                        won't
                        > solve the problem of the inner roller because that roller does
                        have
                        > support at the correct position. It is the outer roller that is
                        > supported below the correct position. If the inner roller can't be
                        > lowered to .918" its diameter may be too small. I don't recall the
                        > correct diameter, might be 2.5", but at any rate it won't be in
                        > eighths or sixteenths of an inch.
                        > Does the end of the inner roller near the operator side adjust
                        > lower than the gear end? At a certain point an undersize roller
                        will
                        > be stopped by the roller gear bottoming out in the bed gear rack.
                        > Also, I don't see nyliners on the roller core (though you can see
                        > one at the pivot point for the arm holding the rider rollers). Are
                        > they present on the inner side of the block? If you need nyliners
                        but
                        > don't have them, the rollers will have some play in the bearer
                        blocks.
                        > --Eric Holub, SF
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • jason@greenboathouse.com
                        Thanks for the notes Fritz, I m going to contact you off-list regarding the rollers... Jason ... From: nagraph1 To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday,
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jun 20, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Thanks for the notes Fritz, I'm going to contact you off-list regarding the rollers...

                          Jason


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: nagraph1
                          To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 11:39 AM
                          Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Rollers up or down?


                          In terms or roller measurement, there is considerable difference
                          between .03 to .05 on the minus side of 2.500. Measure to the
                          thousandth and if a roller is actually at 2.450, it is undersize and
                          out of specification and thus can cause ink adjustment problems.
                          Original Vandercook specifications are for rollers to be made
                          oversize to allow for inevitable shrinkage so that the roller ends up
                          at the correct 2.500 diameter. In terms of machining and the way
                          these presses were designed, the difference between .03 to .05 is big
                          enough to drive a truck through. Take 2 rollers at that big a
                          measurement and it doubles the dimension problem. The solution may in
                          part require new rollers made to spec.

                          Fritz

                          > Hi Eric,
                          >
                          > Last question first: yes, nyliners on the inside (which is why you
                          don't see them in the photo).
                          >
                          > As for the brackets, if you look closely at the picture,
                          specifically at the thick-head screws that hold it in place, you'll
                          see that the bracket is not lowered as far as it should be - that is,
                          the screw slots in the bracket itself show significant potential
                          movement below where the screws appear in the photo. This is because
                          the toe of the L is stopping the bracket from lowering any further
                          when the rollers are set down. Thus, the first roller (closest to the
                          carriage) is always held above type high, even when the adjustment
                          knobs are lowered fully.
                          >
                          > I've measured the rollers with a micrometer and each is within .03-
                          .05 of 2.5" (that is, measuring from 2.45-2.47"), well within the
                          range of adjustment it seems to me.
                          >
                          > Jason
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: parallel_imp
                          > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 9:33 AM
                          > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Rollers up or down?
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, <jason@> wrote:
                          >
                          > <<What I'm thinking is to hold the brackets in a vise and slightly
                          > correct the right-angle, so that the foot of the L is more
                          > perpendicular, thereby allowing more up-and-down play in the
                          > adjustment of the inner roller.>>
                          >
                          > Jason, yeah, that bracket is not correct. It should be a right-
                          angle,
                          > the support arm parallel to the bed. However, correcting that
                          won't
                          > solve the problem of the inner roller because that roller does
                          have
                          > support at the correct position. It is the outer roller that is
                          > supported below the correct position. If the inner roller can't be
                          > lowered to .918" its diameter may be too small. I don't recall the
                          > correct diameter, might be 2.5", but at any rate it won't be in
                          > eighths or sixteenths of an inch.
                          > Does the end of the inner roller near the operator side adjust
                          > lower than the gear end? At a certain point an undersize roller
                          will
                          > be stopped by the roller gear bottoming out in the bed gear rack.
                          > Also, I don't see nyliners on the roller core (though you can see
                          > one at the pivot point for the arm holding the rider rollers). Are
                          > they present on the inner side of the block? If you need nyliners
                          but
                          > don't have them, the rollers will have some play in the bearer
                          blocks.
                          > --Eric Holub, SF
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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