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The Black Art

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  • splitflexi
    Hello, Can anyone share any bibliographical or other references as to the origin of the term The Black Art as applied to letterpress? Today some students and
    Message 1 of 26 , Apr 22, 2008
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      Hello,

      Can anyone share any bibliographical or other references as to the
      origin of the term "The Black Art" as applied to letterpress? Today
      some students and I were contemplating the image frequently identified
      as "the first known image of a printing press," the one with Death
      carrying off the printer and what not, and I said I'd look into this.

      Thanks,

      Duncan Dempster
      University of Hawaii
    • Gerald Lange
      Duncan Interestingly enough, it is a term associated with magic and/or necromancy. The OED doesn t reference it in regard to printing. James Moran s journal
      Message 2 of 26 , Apr 22, 2008
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        Duncan

        Interestingly enough, it is a term associated with magic and/or
        necromancy. The OED doesn't reference it in regard to printing.

        James Moran's journal The Black Art gives no rationale for the name
        except this:

        "After turning the matter over in my mind I have decided to publish a
        modest quarterly called The Black Art. If the uninitiated think it
        deals with magic I shall not mind. It might help the circulation."
        —from the prospectus, 1962.

        Gerald
        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "splitflexi" <dempster@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello,
        >
        > Can anyone share any bibliographical or other references as to the
        > origin of the term "The Black Art" as applied to letterpress? Today
        > some students and I were contemplating the image frequently identified
        > as "the first known image of a printing press," the one with Death
        > carrying off the printer and what not, and I said I'd look into this.
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Duncan Dempster
        > University of Hawaii
        >
      • Steve Robison
        Duncan, Great question! Here are some thoughts on the possible origins of answer...by no means are these ideas definitive. But they may possibly be helpful
        Message 3 of 26 , Apr 23, 2008
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          Duncan,

          Great question!

          Here are some thoughts on the possible origins of
          answer...by no means are these ideas definitive. But
          they may possibly be helpful along your journey to the
          truth....

          Prior to the invention of movable metal type, books
          were scribed (calligraphied) by hand, one at a time.
          This was usually accomplished in church monasteries by
          a few scholarly monks over long periods, sometimes
          years, for just one copy. The few books that were
          copied in this fashion were obviously in high demand
          but available only to a small number of church
          scholars and perhaps the very, very, very wealthy who
          had been tutored to read and were literate enough and
          rich enough to be able to have books hand copied for
          their own use.

          Then, in the 1450's Gutenberg came along with the
          invention of an alloy for movable metal type, printing
          ink that would stick to the metal type, the printing
          press itself, and the whole printing process that went
          with it.

          When this occurred, books and written materials began
          to be produced at a comparatively rapid rate, and
          there was practically an overnight revolution in
          communication and spreading literacy. Many credit the
          invention of printing and the spreading of ideas
          through written works with ultimately pulling Europe
          out of the middle ages and into the reformation period
          and beyond. (It was like the recent invention of the
          internet is to us in this century...how it has spread
          information...some accurately and well, and some not
          so much)

          It's my general understanding that the term "black
          arts", as it refers to printing, came about when
          Gutenberg and the early western printers began
          churning out books at such a comparatively rapid rate
          that something about it seemed impossible. The
          reaction was that such a feat could only be
          accomplished by the work of the devil, perhaps brought
          about through black magic and the divination of the
          dead, drawing on malevolent powers. So for whatever
          reasons, the term "black arts" began to be associated
          with printing.

          In the context of 1450's Europe, still deep in the
          cultural depression of the middle ages, creativity was
          readily challenged at every turn to try and determine
          if it was holy and good, or evil and the work of the
          devil.

          The advent of this new process called printing, and
          the production of the printed word, were often
          challenged because people could not readily determine
          if the written words that were produced were good or
          evil and/or whether the process of the art of printing
          itself was holy and good, or dark and black and evil.

          Thus, out of such confusion many concluded that
          indeed, printing must be the work of the devil...
          since after all, it was so prolific as compared to the
          work of the slow, plodding, holy scribes of the
          church.

          The term "printer's devil" follows this same line of
          thinking. An apprentice to a printer must be an
          apprentice to the devil himself. Hence the term
          "printer's devil" given to an apprentice in the
          printing trade.

          It is also said that the association of printing with
          the work of the devil prompted Gutenberg to work
          closely with the church to produce a Bible as one of
          his early works. The thought is that he probably did
          so for several reasons. One, the church was a powerful
          and wealthy institution that could possible pay for
          the production of the work and therefore support
          Gutenberg financilly. Two, because printing a Bible
          would not be construed to be the devil's work, but
          instead be seen as doing God's work...and further
          legitimize his future printing efforts. And three, he
          didn't want the wrath of the church working against
          him...or potentially executing him...for his invention
          and his work.

          Off hand I can't give you specific bibliographic
          references for these ideas, but as I stumble upon them
          in the course of life, I will most certainly forward
          them to you. These are just some of the many things I
          have heard over the years in reference to the origin
          of the "black arts."

          Oh, one other thing I should mention... Gutenberg
          designed his first type face to very closely match the
          calligraphy that was used in his day. This too was to
          try and calm those who might not otherwise accept his
          printing and outcast it as too "different." At first
          he didn't tell anyone that his printing had not been
          hand scribed. But later on his secret got out and at
          that point people might have thought he was doing
          something evil and secretive through his
          deception...hence, the devil's work.

          If you are ever in Washington D.C., be sure to go to
          the lobby of the Library of Congress. In sealed glass
          cases, on opposite sides of the room, they have a hand
          scribed copy of a Bible completed a year or two before
          the Gutenberg Bible. On the other side of the room, in
          another sealed case, they have one of the few
          remaining Gutenberg Bibles. If you look at the two, it
          is very difficult to distinguish which is printed and
          which is hand scribed. The only differences I could
          see were the presence of tiny faint guide lines used
          on the calligraphied copy to guide the calligrapher's
          hand. In addition, the lines of the calligraphied copy
          sometimes were not well justified, but Gutenberg's
          printed copy was. Other than that, the letter forms
          were very, very similar.

          Finally, maybe they just called it the "black arts"
          because that damn black printing ink kept getting all
          over their fingers...and since printing ink was almost
          always black, the art of printing using it might have
          simply been referred to as the "black art."

          OK. OK Enough rambling for now. It's getting late and
          I should close...

          But hopefully you have a few more ideas to go on
          concerning the possible origins of the term.

          Good luck on your continued research and be sure to
          share your findings with the list.

          Best wishes,

          --Steve

          Steve Robison
          The Robison Press
          Belmont, CA 94002
          robisonsteve@...
          &
          SFLetterpress Yahoogroup
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sfletterpress/




          --- splitflexi <dempster@...> wrote:

          > Hello,
          >
          > Can anyone share any bibliographical or other
          > references as to the
          > origin of the term "The Black Art" as applied to
          > letterpress? Today
          > some students and I were contemplating the image
          > frequently identified
          > as "the first known image of a printing press," the
          > one with Death
          > carrying off the printer and what not, and I said
          > I'd look into this.
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Duncan Dempster
          > University of Hawaii
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          > mailto:PPLetterpress-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >


          Steve Robison
          robisonsteve@...


          ____________________________________________________________________________________
          Be a better friend, newshound, and
          know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
        • Mike Anderson
          Duncan, T. L. DeVinne, in his The Invention of Printing , 1876, Chapter 10, makes reference to Gutenberg s printing as Secret Art. And along Steve s line
          Message 4 of 26 , Apr 23, 2008
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            Duncan,



            T. L. DeVinne, in his "The Invention of Printing", 1876, Chapter 10, makes reference to Gutenberg's printing as "Secret Art."



            And along Steve's line of reasoning (which is very good):



            In "The Story of Books" by Gertrude Burford Rawlings, 1901, she states,



            "When Gutenberg left Strasburg for Mentz is not known, but he was in the latter city in 1448, as is testified by a deed relating to a loan which he had raised. His constant pecuniary difficulties resulted in his entering into partnership, in 1450, with the goldsmith Johann Fust, or Faust, a rich burgher of Mentz, who contributed large loans towards the working expenses, and was evidently to share in the profits of the press. Fust or Faust, the printer of Mentz, has sometimes been identified with the Faust of German legend. The dealings in the black art (emphasis mine) related of the one have also been ascribed to the other by various story-tellers, some of whom say that in Paris Faust the printer narrowly escaped being burnt as a wizard for selling books which looked like manuscripts, and yet were not manuscripts. The first printed letters, it should be observed, were exactly copied from the manuscript letters then in vogue."



            Don't know if any of this helps, but these are the only two references I find that might help.



            Mike

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: splitflexi
            To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:09 AM
            Subject: [PPLetterpress] The Black Art


            Hello,

            Can anyone share any bibliographical or other references as to the
            origin of the term "The Black Art" as applied to letterpress? Today
            some students and I were contemplating the image frequently identified
            as "the first known image of a printing press," the one with Death
            carrying off the printer and what not, and I said I'd look into this.

            Thanks,

            Duncan Dempster
            University of Hawaii





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Lamsland
            I wonder if it s a much simpler reason. I ve no hard evidence to back this idea either. I d think being things the way the were in the world at the time of the
            Message 5 of 26 , Apr 23, 2008
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              I wonder if it's a much simpler reason. I've no hard evidence to back
              this idea either. I'd think being things the way the were in the
              world at the time of the invention of moveable type The Church may
              have assigned the term in an attempt to scare people away from it by
              associating it with evil magic. After all at the time The Church
              stood the most to lose by having cheap readily available copies of
              manuscripts.

              LAMMY


              On Apr 23, 2008, at 5:38 AM, Steve Robison wrote:

              > Duncan,
              >
              > Great question!
              >
              > Here are some thoughts on the possible origins of
              > answer...by no means are these ideas definitive. But
              > they may possibly be helpful along your journey to the
              > truth....
              >
              > Prior to the invention of movable metal type, books
              > were scribed (calligraphied) by hand, one at a time.
              > This was usually accomplished in church monasteries by
              > a few scholarly monks over long periods, sometimes
              > years, for just one copy. The few books that were
              > copied in this fashion were obviously in high demand
              > but available only to a small number of church
              > scholars and perhaps the very, very, very wealthy who
              > had been tutored to read and were literate enough and
              > rich enough to be able to have books hand copied for
              > their own use.
              >
              > Then, in the 1450's Gutenberg came along with the
              > invention of an alloy for movable metal type, printing
              > ink that would stick to the metal type, the printing
              > press itself, and the whole printing process that went
              > with it.
              >
              > When this occurred, books and written materials began
              > to be produced at a comparatively rapid rate, and
              > there was practically an overnight revolution in
              > communication and spreading literacy. Many credit the
              > invention of printing and the spreading of ideas
              > through written works with ultimately pulling Europe
              > out of the middle ages and into the reformation period
              > and beyond. (It was like the recent invention of the
              > internet is to us in this century...how it has spread
              > information...some accurately and well, and some not
              > so much)
              >
              > It's my general understanding that the term "black
              > arts", as it refers to printing, came about when
              > Gutenberg and the early western printers began
              > churning out books at such a comparatively rapid rate
              > that something about it seemed impossible. The
              > reaction was that such a feat could only be
              > accomplished by the work of the devil, perhaps brought
              > about through black magic and the divination of the
              > dead, drawing on malevolent powers. So for whatever
              > reasons, the term "black arts" began to be associated
              > with printing.
              >
              > In the context of 1450's Europe, still deep in the
              > cultural depression of the middle ages, creativity was
              > readily challenged at every turn to try and determine
              > if it was holy and good, or evil and the work of the
              > devil.
              >
              > The advent of this new process called printing, and
              > the production of the printed word, were often
              > challenged because people could not readily determine
              > if the written words that were produced were good or
              > evil and/or whether the process of the art of printing
              > itself was holy and good, or dark and black and evil.
              >
              > Thus, out of such confusion many concluded that
              > indeed, printing must be the work of the devil...
              > since after all, it was so prolific as compared to the
              > work of the slow, plodding, holy scribes of the
              > church.
              >
              > The term "printer's devil" follows this same line of
              > thinking. An apprentice to a printer must be an
              > apprentice to the devil himself. Hence the term
              > "printer's devil" given to an apprentice in the
              > printing trade.
              >
              > It is also said that the association of printing with
              > the work of the devil prompted Gutenberg to work
              > closely with the church to produce a Bible as one of
              > his early works. The thought is that he probably did
              > so for several reasons. One, the church was a powerful
              > and wealthy institution that could possible pay for
              > the production of the work and therefore support
              > Gutenberg financilly. Two, because printing a Bible
              > would not be construed to be the devil's work, but
              > instead be seen as doing God's work...and further
              > legitimize his future printing efforts. And three, he
              > didn't want the wrath of the church working against
              > him...or potentially executing him...for his invention
              > and his work.
              >
              > Off hand I can't give you specific bibliographic
              > references for these ideas, but as I stumble upon them
              > in the course of life, I will most certainly forward
              > them to you. These are just some of the many things I
              > have heard over the years in reference to the origin
              > of the "black arts."
              >
              > Oh, one other thing I should mention... Gutenberg
              > designed his first type face to very closely match the
              > calligraphy that was used in his day. This too was to
              > try and calm those who might not otherwise accept his
              > printing and outcast it as too "different." At first
              > he didn't tell anyone that his printing had not been
              > hand scribed. But later on his secret got out and at
              > that point people might have thought he was doing
              > something evil and secretive through his
              > deception...hence, the devil's work.
              >
              > If you are ever in Washington D.C., be sure to go to
              > the lobby of the Library of Congress. In sealed glass
              > cases, on opposite sides of the room, they have a hand
              > scribed copy of a Bible completed a year or two before
              > the Gutenberg Bible. On the other side of the room, in
              > another sealed case, they have one of the few
              > remaining Gutenberg Bibles. If you look at the two, it
              > is very difficult to distinguish which is printed and
              > which is hand scribed. The only differences I could
              > see were the presence of tiny faint guide lines used
              > on the calligraphied copy to guide the calligrapher's
              > hand. In addition, the lines of the calligraphied copy
              > sometimes were not well justified, but Gutenberg's
              > printed copy was. Other than that, the letter forms
              > were very, very similar.
              >
              > Finally, maybe they just called it the "black arts"
              > because that damn black printing ink kept getting all
              > over their fingers...and since printing ink was almost
              > always black, the art of printing using it might have
              > simply been referred to as the "black art."
              >
              > OK. OK Enough rambling for now. It's getting late and
              > I should close...
              >
              > But hopefully you have a few more ideas to go on
              > concerning the possible origins of the term.
              >
              > Good luck on your continued research and be sure to
              > share your findings with the list.
              >
              > Best wishes,
              >
              > --Steve
              >
              > Steve Robison
              > The Robison Press
              > Belmont, CA 94002
              > robisonsteve@...
              > &
              > SFLetterpress Yahoogroup
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sfletterpress/
              >
              > --- splitflexi <dempster@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Hello,
              > >
              > > Can anyone share any bibliographical or other
              > > references as to the
              > > origin of the term "The Black Art" as applied to
              > > letterpress? Today
              > > some students and I were contemplating the image
              > > frequently identified
              > > as "the first known image of a printing press," the
              > > one with Death
              > > carrying off the printer and what not, and I said
              > > I'd look into this.
              > >
              > > Thanks,
              > >
              > > Duncan Dempster
              > > University of Hawaii
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > > mailto:PPLetterpress-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > Steve Robison
              > robisonsteve@...
              >
              > __________________________________________________________
              > Be a better friend, newshound, and
              > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://
              > mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • nagraph1
              The older issues of the Inland Printer refer to printing as the Black Art on occasion, and next time I run across that mention, I ll make a note of it. From
              Message 6 of 26 , Apr 23, 2008
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                The older issues of the Inland Printer refer to printing as the Black
                Art on occasion, and next time I run across that mention, I'll make a
                note of it. From the 1880s on through the 1930s, the rather awkward
                phrasing of printing being the "Art preservative of all arts" was used
                quite often.

                Fritz

                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Steve Robison <robisonsteve@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Duncan,
                >
                > Great question!
                >
                > Here are some thoughts on the possible origins of
                > answer...by no means are these ideas definitive. But
                > they may possibly be helpful along your journey to the
                > truth....
              • Gerald Lange
                Lammy This might be the common perception but for the fact that the Church was the primary recipient of the Gutenberg Bibles and provided not only incentive
                Message 7 of 26 , Apr 23, 2008
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                  Lammy

                  This might be the common perception but for the fact that the Church
                  was the primary recipient of the Gutenberg Bibles and provided not
                  only incentive but funding for the endeavor. "Papal authority" was
                  looking for a mechanical form of writing to prevent continued
                  corruption of text. Gutenberg et al were working on perfecting such a
                  means for many years prior to the final solution. The reward for
                  success was quite high.

                  Gerald
                  http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lamsland <lamsland1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I wonder if it's a much simpler reason. I've no hard evidence to back
                  > this idea either. I'd think being things the way the were in the
                  > world at the time of the invention of moveable type The Church may
                  > have assigned the term in an attempt to scare people away from it by
                  > associating it with evil magic. After all at the time The Church
                  > stood the most to lose by having cheap readily available copies of
                  > manuscripts.
                  >
                  > LAMMY
                  >
                  >
                • Lamsland
                  Right. That may have been the monetary incentive for ol Johannes, thus why he printed the latin bible first. But since it was such a big part of enabling the
                  Message 8 of 26 , Apr 23, 2008
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                    Right. That may have been the monetary incentive for ol' Johannes,
                    thus why he printed the latin bible first. But since it was such a
                    big part of enabling the reformation I can certainly see the Church
                    changing it's opinion, or even the orthodox sects denying it all
                    together as good and holy work. Like I said there's nothing to back
                    this up though. Simple speculation on my part. Considering the Church
                    never did anything to Gutenburg for his invention it's most likely it
                    wasn't looked on as bad thing in all reality. After all look what
                    they did to Mr. Wycliffe. ;)




                    On Apr 23, 2008, at 2:26 PM, Gerald Lange wrote:

                    > Lammy
                    >
                    > This might be the common perception but for the fact that the Church
                    > was the primary recipient of the Gutenberg Bibles and provided not
                    > only incentive but funding for the endeavor. "Papal authority" was
                    > looking for a mechanical form of writing to prevent continued
                    > corruption of text. Gutenberg et al were working on perfecting such a
                    > means for many years prior to the final solution. The reward for
                    > success was quite high.
                    >
                    > Gerald
                    > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                    >
                    > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lamsland <lamsland1@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I wonder if it's a much simpler reason. I've no hard evidence to
                    > back
                    > > this idea either. I'd think being things the way the were in the
                    > > world at the time of the invention of moveable type The Church may
                    > > have assigned the term in an attempt to scare people away from it by
                    > > associating it with evil magic. After all at the time The Church
                    > > stood the most to lose by having cheap readily available copies of
                    > > manuscripts.
                    > >
                    > > LAMMY
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Gerald Lange
                    Lammy Wycliffe was a century before Gutenberg, more part of the medieval period. Gutenberg was working at the cusp of the medieval and the renaissance, though
                    Message 9 of 26 , Apr 23, 2008
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                      Lammy

                      Wycliffe was a century before Gutenberg, more part of the medieval
                      period. Gutenberg was working at the cusp of the medieval and the
                      renaissance, though still a fairly furtive period. Working with the
                      Church is one thing, working against them is another.

                      Best advice I ever got on Gutenberg studies came from the printing
                      historian Nicolas Barker. He started the interview out by discussing
                      the origins of digital type. One study being the use of the computer
                      to find the essence of Garamond, the Garamondness. Well, you can't
                      find the essence of Garamond by studying the typeface. Basically:
                      nothing is as it seems.

                      Gerald
                      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



                      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lamsland <lamsland1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Right. That may have been the monetary incentive for ol' Johannes,
                      > thus why he printed the latin bible first. But since it was such a
                      > big part of enabling the reformation I can certainly see the Church
                      > changing it's opinion, or even the orthodox sects denying it all
                      > together as good and holy work. Like I said there's nothing to back
                      > this up though. Simple speculation on my part. Considering the Church
                      > never did anything to Gutenburg for his invention it's most likely it
                      > wasn't looked on as bad thing in all reality. After all look what
                      > they did to Mr. Wycliffe. ;)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On Apr 23, 2008, at 2:26 PM, Gerald Lange wrote:
                      >
                      > > Lammy
                      > >
                      > > This might be the common perception but for the fact that the Church
                      > > was the primary recipient of the Gutenberg Bibles and provided not
                      > > only incentive but funding for the endeavor. "Papal authority" was
                      > > looking for a mechanical form of writing to prevent continued
                      > > corruption of text. Gutenberg et al were working on perfecting such a
                      > > means for many years prior to the final solution. The reward for
                      > > success was quite high.
                      > >
                      > > Gerald
                      > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                      > >
                      > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lamsland <lamsland1@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I wonder if it's a much simpler reason. I've no hard evidence to
                      > > back
                      > > > this idea either. I'd think being things the way the were in the
                      > > > world at the time of the invention of moveable type The Church may
                      > > > have assigned the term in an attempt to scare people away from it by
                      > > > associating it with evil magic. After all at the time The Church
                      > > > stood the most to lose by having cheap readily available copies of
                      > > > manuscripts.
                      > > >
                      > > > LAMMY
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • splitflexi
                      Thanks, All, for the helpful responses. It seems like we offhandedly invoke this phrase when talking about letterpress, and I was just wondering if the meaning
                      Message 10 of 26 , Apr 23, 2008
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                        Thanks, All, for the helpful responses.

                        It seems like we offhandedly invoke this phrase when talking about
                        letterpress, and I was just wondering if the meaning is lost and it's
                        just something we hear and repeat, or if anyone still knows the
                        origin. I've often wondered (in my studies of intaglio) about the
                        possible proximity of alchemy in early print culture, and thought it
                        reasonable that the source of various chemicals or knowledge used in
                        printing/printmaking might have been what was, in effect, the nascent
                        chemical industry. The black ink inference seems a little too obvious.
                        Surely various other trades in the late medieval/early renaissance
                        period involved filthy black substances and besmirched workers
                        (metalsmithing, charcoal production, nightsoil collection, er...
                        inkmaking). I'll share these leads with my students. Thanks again,

                        Duncan Dempster
                        University of Hawaii
                      • Rufo Noriega
                        ... Don t you mean Tyndale rather than Wycliffe? ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 26 , Apr 23, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          > After all look what they did to Mr. Wycliffe. ;)

                          Don't you mean Tyndale rather than Wycliffe?

                          On Apr 23, 2008, at 12:15 PM, Lamsland wrote:

                          > Right. That may have been the monetary incentive for ol' Johannes,
                          > thus why he printed the latin bible first. But since it was such a
                          > big part of enabling the reformation I can certainly see the Church
                          > changing it's opinion, or even the orthodox sects denying it all
                          > together as good and holy work. Like I said there's nothing to back
                          > this up though. Simple speculation on my part. Considering the Church
                          > never did anything to Gutenburg for his invention it's most likely it
                          > wasn't looked on as bad thing in all reality. After all look what
                          > they did to Mr. Wycliffe. ;)
                          >
                          > On Apr 23, 2008, at 2:26 PM, Gerald Lange wrote:
                          >
                          > > Lammy
                          > >
                          > > This might be the common perception but for the fact that the Church
                          > > was the primary recipient of the Gutenberg Bibles and provided not
                          > > only incentive but funding for the endeavor. "Papal authority" was
                          > > looking for a mechanical form of writing to prevent continued
                          > > corruption of text. Gutenberg et al were working on perfecting
                          > such a
                          > > means for many years prior to the final solution. The reward for
                          > > success was quite high.
                          > >
                          > > Gerald
                          > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                          > >
                          > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lamsland <lamsland1@...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I wonder if it's a much simpler reason. I've no hard evidence to
                          > > back
                          > > > this idea either. I'd think being things the way the were in the
                          > > > world at the time of the invention of moveable type The Church may
                          > > > have assigned the term in an attempt to scare people away from
                          > it by
                          > > > associating it with evil magic. After all at the time The Church
                          > > > stood the most to lose by having cheap readily available copies of
                          > > > manuscripts.
                          > > >
                          > > > LAMMY
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Lamsland
                          Tyndale was betrayed, tried and hung. I supposed either could be referenced. 44 years after Wycliffe had died, the Pope ordered his bones to be dug-up,
                          Message 12 of 26 , Apr 23, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Tyndale was betrayed, tried and hung. I supposed either could be
                            referenced. 44 years after Wycliffe had died, the Pope ordered his
                            bones to be dug-up, crushed, and scattered in the river.

                            LAMMY

                            On Apr 23, 2008, at 4:32 PM, Rufo Noriega wrote:

                            > > After all look what they did to Mr. Wycliffe. ;)
                            >
                            > Don't you mean Tyndale rather than Wycliffe?
                            >
                            > On Apr 23, 2008, at 12:15 PM, Lamsland wrote:
                            >
                            > > Right. That may have been the monetary incentive for ol' Johannes,
                            > > thus why he printed the latin bible first. But since it was such a
                            > > big part of enabling the reformation I can certainly see the Church
                            > > changing it's opinion, or even the orthodox sects denying it all
                            > > together as good and holy work. Like I said there's nothing to back
                            > > this up though. Simple speculation on my part. Considering the
                            > Church
                            > > never did anything to Gutenburg for his invention it's most
                            > likely it
                            > > wasn't looked on as bad thing in all reality. After all look what
                            > > they did to Mr. Wycliffe. ;)
                            > >
                            > > On Apr 23, 2008, at 2:26 PM, Gerald Lange wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > Lammy
                            > > >
                            > > > This might be the common perception but for the fact that the
                            > Church
                            > > > was the primary recipient of the Gutenberg Bibles and provided not
                            > > > only incentive but funding for the endeavor. "Papal authority" was
                            > > > looking for a mechanical form of writing to prevent continued
                            > > > corruption of text. Gutenberg et al were working on perfecting
                            > > such a
                            > > > means for many years prior to the final solution. The reward for
                            > > > success was quite high.
                            > > >
                            > > > Gerald
                            > > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lamsland <lamsland1@...>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I wonder if it's a much simpler reason. I've no hard evidence to
                            > > > back
                            > > > > this idea either. I'd think being things the way the were in the
                            > > > > world at the time of the invention of moveable type The
                            > Church may
                            > > > > have assigned the term in an attempt to scare people away from
                            > > it by
                            > > > > associating it with evil magic. After all at the time The Church
                            > > > > stood the most to lose by having cheap readily available
                            > copies of
                            > > > > manuscripts.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > LAMMY
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Rufo Noriega
                            Thanks for the clarification. Your previous writing seemed to imply that you were discussing the Church s attitude toward printed works, and thus I assumed you
                            Message 13 of 26 , Apr 23, 2008
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                              Thanks for the clarification. Your previous writing seemed to imply
                              that you were discussing the Church's attitude toward printed works,
                              and thus I assumed you were contrasting two printers and their
                              dealings with the Church.

                              On Apr 23, 2008, at 1:53 PM, Lamsland wrote:

                              > Tyndale was betrayed, tried and hung. I supposed either could be
                              > referenced. 44 years after Wycliffe had died, the Pope ordered his
                              > bones to be dug-up, crushed, and scattered in the river.
                              >
                              > LAMMY
                              >
                              > On Apr 23, 2008, at 4:32 PM, Rufo Noriega wrote:
                              >
                              > > > After all look what they did to Mr. Wycliffe. ;)
                              > >
                              > > Don't you mean Tyndale rather than Wycliffe?
                              > >
                              > > On Apr 23, 2008, at 12:15 PM, Lamsland wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > Right. That may have been the monetary incentive for ol' Johannes,
                              > > > thus why he printed the latin bible first. But since it was such a
                              > > > big part of enabling the reformation I can certainly see the
                              > Church
                              > > > changing it's opinion, or even the orthodox sects denying it all
                              > > > together as good and holy work. Like I said there's nothing to
                              > back
                              > > > this up though. Simple speculation on my part. Considering the
                              > > Church
                              > > > never did anything to Gutenburg for his invention it's most
                              > > likely it
                              > > > wasn't looked on as bad thing in all reality. After all look what
                              > > > they did to Mr. Wycliffe. ;)
                              > > >
                              > > > On Apr 23, 2008, at 2:26 PM, Gerald Lange wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > > Lammy
                              > > > >
                              > > > > This might be the common perception but for the fact that the
                              > > Church
                              > > > > was the primary recipient of the Gutenberg Bibles and
                              > provided not
                              > > > > only incentive but funding for the endeavor. "Papal
                              > authority" was
                              > > > > looking for a mechanical form of writing to prevent continued
                              > > > > corruption of text. Gutenberg et al were working on perfecting
                              > > > such a
                              > > > > means for many years prior to the final solution. The reward for
                              > > > > success was quite high.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Gerald
                              > > > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lamsland <lamsland1@...>
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I wonder if it's a much simpler reason. I've no hard
                              > evidence to
                              > > > > back
                              > > > > > this idea either. I'd think being things the way the were
                              > in the
                              > > > > > world at the time of the invention of moveable type The
                              > > Church may
                              > > > > > have assigned the term in an attempt to scare people away from
                              > > > it by
                              > > > > > associating it with evil magic. After all at the time The
                              > Church
                              > > > > > stood the most to lose by having cheap readily available
                              > > copies of
                              > > > > > manuscripts.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > LAMMY
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Russ Wiecking - Wood and Metal Craft
                              ... I suspect that superstition and suspicion were easily as pervasive in the middle ages as now. New ideas and, worse, threatening new activities, would
                              Message 14 of 26 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                A few "surface" definitions. The note at the end is most interesting:

                                > American Heritage Dictionary: black art
                                > n. Black magic; witchcraft.
                                >
                                > Word Net: black art, noun
                                > the belief in magical spells that harness occult forces or evil
                                > spirits to produce unnatural effects in the world [syn: sorcery]
                                >
                                > Webster's Revised Unabridged: Black art
                                > Black" art`\ The art practiced by conjurers and witches;
                                > necromancy; conjuration; magic.
                                >
                                > Note: This name was given in the Middle Ages to necromancy, under
                                > the idea that the latter term was derived from niger black, instead
                                > of nekro`s, a dead person, and mantei`a, divination. --Wright.
                                > Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


                                I suspect that superstition and suspicion were easily as pervasive
                                in the middle ages as now. New ideas and, worse, threatening new
                                activities, would likely have been feared. I can't help but wonder
                                if the monks of the time, feeling threatened , applied the term
                                "necromancy/black magic" in hopes of achieving a bit of beneficial
                                "press" suggesting that the printed texts were dead and/or in league
                                with the devil. I wouldn't have been the first time Rome would have
                                been at odds with the monks.

                                The fact that there was a lot of soot involved probably helped the
                                moniker to stick. Blacksmiths, wizards and alchemists have long been
                                portrayed as wearing black and working with fire but the notion that
                                "where there's soot there's fire" is attractive but applies, I
                                suspect, to the coating on the walls and ceilings of any peasant's
                                abode as much as to a printer's. I wouldn't count on the presence of
                                soot, in itself to be of much significance to the medieval mind.

                                Russ

                                On Apr 23, 2008, at 1:22 PM, splitflexi wrote:

                                > Thanks, All, for the helpful responses.
                                >
                                > It seems like we offhandedly invoke this phrase when talking about
                                > letterpress, and I was just wondering if the meaning is lost and it's
                                > just something we hear and repeat, or if anyone still knows the
                                > origin. I've often wondered (in my studies of intaglio) about the
                                > possible proximity of alchemy in early print culture, and thought it
                                > reasonable that the source of various chemicals or knowledge used in
                                > printing/printmaking might have been what was, in effect, the nascent
                                > chemical industry. The black ink inference seems a little too obvious.
                                > Surely various other trades in the late medieval/early renaissance
                                > period involved filthy black substances and besmirched workers
                                > (metalsmithing, charcoal production, nightsoil collection, er...
                                > inkmaking). I'll share these leads with my students. Thanks again,
                                >
                                > Duncan Dempster
                                > University of Hawaii
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Susan Angebranndt
                                Recently there s been a series on the BBC in the UK called The Medieval Season , and one of the installments is called The Machine That Made Us , all about
                                Message 15 of 26 , Apr 24, 2008
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                                  Recently there's been a series on the BBC in the UK called "The Medieval
                                  Season", and one of the installments is called "The Machine That Made Us",
                                  all about Gutenberg. Stephen Fry is the presenter and among other things he
                                  shows how the first metal type was cast and speculates about how the first
                                  press worked (there apparently aren't any extent pictures or plans for that
                                  first press). Part of the documentary is about building a working version
                                  of what that first press might have been like. You can watch the show on
                                  YouTube -- in 6 10 minute installments starting with this one:
                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91smRXrEPRs

                                  Susan
                                • Gary Johanson
                                  It s a fascinating watch. Curious who it was who sent the form for the page they actually printed (into which they inserted the home- made e )? If they said
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Apr 24, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    It's a fascinating watch. Curious who it was who sent the form for
                                    the page they actually printed (into which they inserted the home-
                                    made "e")? If they said who, I missed it. M&H supplied for the
                                    Smith in the past, I wonder if it might be them?

                                    I wish there were actually a plan on paper to actually construct a
                                    simple single pull press like that shown on the BBC video . . .
                                    maybe without the wooden screw. I'd settle for iron or steel
                                    there :>) Perhaps just large enough to handle a 5x7 Kelsey chase.
                                    Just enough to demonstrate and pull a respectable print. I
                                    volunteer at the print shop of a teaching museum in Central Florida,
                                    and while we have no shortage of Gordon style job presses and a
                                    Kelsey collection, nothing beats demonstrating the quantum leap
                                    between the 1780's and the 1880's in press technology - especially
                                    the speed - like having the real thing to demonstrate. It's hard to
                                    appreciate how fast 20 impressions per minute by one press operator
                                    is as compared to 3 or 4 per minute with a trained crew of two or
                                    three.

                                    Simple (and massive) as those Common Presses were, they are a
                                    marvelous device to see in full vigour and action with a trained
                                    crew. I really appreciate those YouTube videos being made
                                    available. I would be willing to purchase a few DVDs of the special
                                    for use at the Museum if the BBC made them available.

                                    Your Humble Servant
                                    Gary Johanson, Settlement Printer
                                    Florida Pioneer Settlement for the Creative Arts
                                    Barberville, Fl.
                                    http://www.qsl.net/wd4nka/TEXTS/press.html
                                    http://www.gjohanson.blogspot.com



                                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Susan Angebranndt <susan@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Recently there's been a series on the BBC in the UK called "The
                                    Medieval
                                    > Season", and one of the installments is called "The Machine That
                                    Made Us",
                                    > all about Gutenberg. Stephen Fry is the presenter and among other
                                    things he
                                    > shows how the first metal type was cast and speculates about how
                                    the first
                                    > press worked (there apparently aren't any extent pictures or plans
                                    for that
                                    > first press). Part of the documentary is about building a working
                                    version
                                    > of what that first press might have been like. You can watch the
                                    show on
                                    > YouTube -- in 6 10 minute installments starting with this one:
                                    > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91smRXrEPRs
                                    >
                                    > Susan
                                    >
                                  • David McNamara
                                    Gary, This production was discussed a bit over on that other letterpress list, and I think someone said that it was M&H who did the form. (I don t remember the
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Apr 24, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Gary,

                                      This production was discussed a bit over on that other letterpress list, and I think someone said that it was M&H who did the form. (I don't remember the program giving credit, either, which strikes me as unfortunate.)
                                      __

                                      David
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Gary Johanson
                                      To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 10:34 PM
                                      Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Reconstructing Gutenburg's Press


                                      It's a fascinating watch. Curious who it was who sent the form for
                                      the page they actually printed (into which they inserted the home-
                                      made "e")? If they said who, I missed it. M&H supplied for the
                                      Smith in the past, I wonder if it might be them?

                                      I wish there were actually a plan on paper to actually construct a
                                      simple single pull press like that shown on the BBC video . . .
                                      maybe without the wooden screw. I'd settle for iron or steel
                                      there :>) Perhaps just large enough to handle a 5x7 Kelsey chase.
                                      Just enough to demonstrate and pull a respectable print. I
                                      volunteer at the print shop of a teaching museum in Central Florida,
                                      and while we have no shortage of Gordon style job presses and a
                                      Kelsey collection, nothing beats demonstrating the quantum leap
                                      between the 1780's and the 1880's in press technology - especially
                                      the speed - like having the real thing to demonstrate. It's hard to
                                      appreciate how fast 20 impressions per minute by one press operator
                                      is as compared to 3 or 4 per minute with a trained crew of two or
                                      three.

                                      Simple (and massive) as those Common Presses were, they are a
                                      marvelous device to see in full vigour and action with a trained
                                      crew. I really appreciate those YouTube videos being made
                                      available. I would be willing to purchase a few DVDs of the special
                                      for use at the Museum if the BBC made them available.

                                      Your Humble Servant
                                      Gary Johanson, Settlement Printer
                                      Florida Pioneer Settlement for the Creative Arts
                                      Barberville, Fl.
                                      http://www.qsl.net/wd4nka/TEXTS/press.html
                                      http://www.gjohanson.blogspot.com

                                      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Susan Angebranndt <susan@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Recently there's been a series on the BBC in the UK called "The
                                      Medieval
                                      > Season", and one of the installments is called "The Machine That
                                      Made Us",
                                      > all about Gutenberg. Stephen Fry is the presenter and among other
                                      things he
                                      > shows how the first metal type was cast and speculates about how
                                      the first
                                      > press worked (there apparently aren't any extent pictures or plans
                                      for that
                                      > first press). Part of the documentary is about building a working
                                      version
                                      > of what that first press might have been like. You can watch the
                                      show on
                                      > YouTube -- in 6 10 minute installments starting with this one:
                                      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91smRXrEPRs
                                      >
                                      > Susan
                                      >





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Gerald Lange
                                      Gary Godine put out a book a long while back titled The Common Press by Elizabeth M Harris of the Smithsonian, which included technical illustrations of its
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Apr 24, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Gary

                                        Godine put out a book a long while back titled The Common Press by
                                        Elizabeth M Harris of the Smithsonian, which included technical
                                        illustrations of its construction. This is still available from online
                                        antiquarian sources (around $100 or so).

                                        Gerald
                                        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Johanson" <wd4nka@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > It's a fascinating watch. Curious who it was who sent the form for
                                        > the page they actually printed (into which they inserted the home-
                                        > made "e")? If they said who, I missed it. M&H supplied for the
                                        > Smith in the past, I wonder if it might be them?
                                        >
                                        > I wish there were actually a plan on paper to actually construct a
                                        > simple single pull press like that shown on the BBC video . . .
                                        > maybe without the wooden screw. I'd settle for iron or steel
                                        > there :>) Perhaps just large enough to handle a 5x7 Kelsey chase.
                                        > Just enough to demonstrate and pull a respectable print. I
                                        > volunteer at the print shop of a teaching museum in Central Florida,
                                        > and while we have no shortage of Gordon style job presses and a
                                        > Kelsey collection, nothing beats demonstrating the quantum leap
                                        > between the 1780's and the 1880's in press technology - especially
                                        > the speed - like having the real thing to demonstrate. It's hard to
                                        > appreciate how fast 20 impressions per minute by one press operator
                                        > is as compared to 3 or 4 per minute with a trained crew of two or
                                        > three.
                                        >
                                        > Simple (and massive) as those Common Presses were, they are a
                                        > marvelous device to see in full vigour and action with a trained
                                        > crew. I really appreciate those YouTube videos being made
                                        > available. I would be willing to purchase a few DVDs of the special
                                        > for use at the Museum if the BBC made them available.
                                        >
                                        > Your Humble Servant
                                        > Gary Johanson, Settlement Printer
                                        > Florida Pioneer Settlement for the Creative Arts
                                        > Barberville, Fl.
                                        > http://www.qsl.net/wd4nka/TEXTS/press.html
                                        > http://www.gjohanson.blogspot.com
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Susan Angebranndt <susan@>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Recently there's been a series on the BBC in the UK called "The
                                        > Medieval
                                        > > Season", and one of the installments is called "The Machine That
                                        > Made Us",
                                        > > all about Gutenberg. Stephen Fry is the presenter and among other
                                        > things he
                                        > > shows how the first metal type was cast and speculates about how
                                        > the first
                                        > > press worked (there apparently aren't any extent pictures or plans
                                        > for that
                                        > > first press). Part of the documentary is about building a working
                                        > version
                                        > > of what that first press might have been like. You can watch the
                                        > show on
                                        > > YouTube -- in 6 10 minute installments starting with this one:
                                        > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91smRXrEPRs
                                        > >
                                        > > Susan
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • mike day
                                        The font was from Dale Guild. The font was their recreation of the Gutenburg font, B-42. Mike On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 7:50 PM, David McNamara
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Apr 24, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          The font was from Dale Guild. The font was their recreation of the Gutenburg
                                          font, B-42.

                                          Mike



                                          On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 7:50 PM, David McNamara <david@...>
                                          wrote:

                                          > Gary,
                                          >
                                          > This production was discussed a bit over on that other letterpress list,
                                          > and I think someone said that it was M&H who did the form. (I don't remember
                                          > the program giving credit, either, which strikes me as unfortunate.)
                                          > __
                                          >
                                          > David
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: Gary Johanson
                                          > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com <PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 10:34 PM
                                          > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Reconstructing Gutenburg's Press
                                          >
                                          > It's a fascinating watch. Curious who it was who sent the form for
                                          > the page they actually printed (into which they inserted the home-
                                          > made "e")? If they said who, I missed it. M&H supplied for the
                                          > Smith in the past, I wonder if it might be them?
                                          >
                                          > I wish there were actually a plan on paper to actually construct a
                                          > simple single pull press like that shown on the BBC video . . .
                                          > maybe without the wooden screw. I'd settle for iron or steel
                                          > there :>) Perhaps just large enough to handle a 5x7 Kelsey chase.
                                          > Just enough to demonstrate and pull a respectable print. I
                                          > volunteer at the print shop of a teaching museum in Central Florida,
                                          > and while we have no shortage of Gordon style job presses and a
                                          > Kelsey collection, nothing beats demonstrating the quantum leap
                                          > between the 1780's and the 1880's in press technology - especially
                                          > the speed - like having the real thing to demonstrate. It's hard to
                                          > appreciate how fast 20 impressions per minute by one press operator
                                          > is as compared to 3 or 4 per minute with a trained crew of two or
                                          > three.
                                          >
                                          > Simple (and massive) as those Common Presses were, they are a
                                          > marvelous device to see in full vigour and action with a trained
                                          > crew. I really appreciate those YouTube videos being made
                                          > available. I would be willing to purchase a few DVDs of the special
                                          > for use at the Museum if the BBC made them available.
                                          >
                                          > Your Humble Servant
                                          > Gary Johanson, Settlement Printer
                                          > Florida Pioneer Settlement for the Creative Arts
                                          > Barberville, Fl.
                                          > http://www.qsl.net/wd4nka/TEXTS/press.html
                                          > http://www.gjohanson.blogspot.com
                                          >
                                          > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com <PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                          > Susan Angebranndt <susan@...>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Recently there's been a series on the BBC in the UK called "The
                                          > Medieval
                                          > > Season", and one of the installments is called "The Machine That
                                          > Made Us",
                                          > > all about Gutenberg. Stephen Fry is the presenter and among other
                                          > things he
                                          > > shows how the first metal type was cast and speculates about how
                                          > the first
                                          > > press worked (there apparently aren't any extent pictures or plans
                                          > for that
                                          > > first press). Part of the documentary is about building a working
                                          > version
                                          > > of what that first press might have been like. You can watch the
                                          > show on
                                          > > YouTube -- in 6 10 minute installments starting with this one:
                                          > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91smRXrEPRs
                                          > >
                                          > > Susan
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >



                                          --
                                          Mike Day
                                          Long Day Press
                                          Sunnyvale CA


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Gerald Lange
                                          The only problem with the Rehak reconstruction was that it is the typical 20th/21st century approach to historical typeface reconstruction. Pick the best
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Apr 24, 2008
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                                            The only problem with the Rehak reconstruction was that it is the
                                            typical 20th/21st century approach to historical typeface
                                            reconstruction. Pick the best letter you can find and use that as
                                            representative. Unfortunately, throughout the period of Incunabula,
                                            from Schoeffer into Aldus, letterforms were deliberately randomized.
                                            The standardization of typecast letterforms is post Incunabula.

                                            Anything set without this understanding is in no way going to
                                            recapture the look of B42 or other Incunabula.

                                            Gerald
                                            http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                                            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "mike day" <vangogh1888@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > The font was from Dale Guild. The font was their recreation of the
                                            Gutenburg
                                            > font, B-42.
                                            >
                                            > Mike
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 7:50 PM, David McNamara <david@...>
                                            > wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > Gary,
                                            > >
                                            > > This production was discussed a bit over on that other letterpress
                                            list,
                                            > > and I think someone said that it was M&H who did the form. (I
                                            don't remember
                                            > > the program giving credit, either, which strikes me as unfortunate.)
                                            > > __
                                            > >
                                            > > David
                                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > > From: Gary Johanson
                                            > > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com <PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 10:34 PM
                                            > > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Reconstructing Gutenburg's Press
                                            > >
                                            > > It's a fascinating watch. Curious who it was who sent the form for
                                            > > the page they actually printed (into which they inserted the home-
                                            > > made "e")? If they said who, I missed it. M&H supplied for the
                                            > > Smith in the past, I wonder if it might be them?
                                            > >
                                            > > I wish there were actually a plan on paper to actually construct a
                                            > > simple single pull press like that shown on the BBC video . . .
                                            > > maybe without the wooden screw. I'd settle for iron or steel
                                            > > there :>) Perhaps just large enough to handle a 5x7 Kelsey chase.
                                            > > Just enough to demonstrate and pull a respectable print. I
                                            > > volunteer at the print shop of a teaching museum in Central Florida,
                                            > > and while we have no shortage of Gordon style job presses and a
                                            > > Kelsey collection, nothing beats demonstrating the quantum leap
                                            > > between the 1780's and the 1880's in press technology - especially
                                            > > the speed - like having the real thing to demonstrate. It's hard to
                                            > > appreciate how fast 20 impressions per minute by one press operator
                                            > > is as compared to 3 or 4 per minute with a trained crew of two or
                                            > > three.
                                            > >
                                            > > Simple (and massive) as those Common Presses were, they are a
                                            > > marvelous device to see in full vigour and action with a trained
                                            > > crew. I really appreciate those YouTube videos being made
                                            > > available. I would be willing to purchase a few DVDs of the special
                                            > > for use at the Museum if the BBC made them available.
                                            > >
                                            > > Your Humble Servant
                                            > > Gary Johanson, Settlement Printer
                                            > > Florida Pioneer Settlement for the Creative Arts
                                            > > Barberville, Fl.
                                            > > http://www.qsl.net/wd4nka/TEXTS/press.html
                                            > > http://www.gjohanson.blogspot.com
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                            <PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                            > > Susan Angebranndt <susan@>
                                            > > wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Recently there's been a series on the BBC in the UK called "The
                                            > > Medieval
                                            > > > Season", and one of the installments is called "The Machine That
                                            > > Made Us",
                                            > > > all about Gutenberg. Stephen Fry is the presenter and among other
                                            > > things he
                                            > > > shows how the first metal type was cast and speculates about how
                                            > > the first
                                            > > > press worked (there apparently aren't any extent pictures or plans
                                            > > for that
                                            > > > first press). Part of the documentary is about building a working
                                            > > version
                                            > > > of what that first press might have been like. You can watch the
                                            > > show on
                                            > > > YouTube -- in 6 10 minute installments starting with this one:
                                            > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91smRXrEPRs
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Susan
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --
                                            > Mike Day
                                            > Long Day Press
                                            > Sunnyvale CA
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                          • Farida Bee
                                            Gary, The page was set (and sent) by Kitty Maryatt, Director of the Scripps College Press in Claremont, California. As noted by Mike Day, the type was cast by
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Apr 24, 2008
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                                              Gary,

                                              The page was set (and sent) by Kitty Maryatt, Director of the Scripps College Press in Claremont, California. As noted by Mike Day, the type was cast by Dale Guild Typefoundry.

                                              Farida Sunada

                                              <<<
                                              From: Gary Johanson
                                              Curious who it was who sent the form for the page they actually printed (into which they inserted the home-made "e")?


                                              ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                              Be a better friend, newshound, and
                                              know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Gary Johanson
                                              Thanks for the info. Sorry about taking so long to acknowledge. Seems lately I am lucky to get posts out on a weekly basis. I am curious about authentically
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Apr 28, 2008
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                                                Thanks for the info. Sorry about taking so long to acknowledge. Seems
                                                lately I am lucky to get posts out on a weekly basis.

                                                I am curious about authentically cast type because I am considering
                                                reprinting portions of Dr. Stearns "American Herbal", using matched
                                                fonts set in as near to the same form as I am able at my level of
                                                operation. Seeing that form on the BBC documentary made me wonder
                                                just how close I could copy Carlisle's original work in the American
                                                Herbal.

                                                I hope to bring at least a part of this volume back to life, and also
                                                create awareness of the pioneer Doctor who suffered for his beliefs
                                                and took a very unpopular stand during a very trying time, which
                                                followed him for the rest of his life.

                                                Gary Johanson, Printer
                                                Florida Pioneer Settlement for the Creative Arts
                                              • nagraph1
                                                If you know the type face and size, then see what s available as off- the-shelf type or something that has to be cast. The B-42 used in the BBC program is the
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Apr 28, 2008
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                                                  If you know the type face and size, then see what's available as off-
                                                  the-shelf type or something that has to be cast. The B-42 used in the
                                                  BBC program is the only accurate reproduction "Gutenberg" type
                                                  available, and with some 270 characters, I think Theo Rehak and Alan
                                                  Waring came as close to reproducing in metal what the actual type was
                                                  as is possible. There is no other source for the B-42 type.

                                                  Fritz

                                                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Johanson" <wd4nka@...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Thanks for the info. Sorry about taking so long to acknowledge.
                                                  Seems
                                                  > lately I am lucky to get posts out on a weekly basis.
                                                  >
                                                  > I am curious about authentically cast type because I am considering
                                                  > reprinting portions of Dr. Stearns "American Herbal", using matched
                                                  > fonts set in as near to the same form as I am able at my level of
                                                  > operation. Seeing that form on the BBC documentary made me wonder
                                                  > just how close I could copy Carlisle's original work in the
                                                  American
                                                  > Herbal.
                                                  >
                                                  > I hope to bring at least a part of this volume back to life, and
                                                  also
                                                  > create awareness of the pioneer Doctor who suffered for his beliefs
                                                  > and took a very unpopular stand during a very trying time, which
                                                  > followed him for the rest of his life.
                                                  >
                                                  > Gary Johanson, Printer
                                                  > Florida Pioneer Settlement for the Creative Arts
                                                  >
                                                • Lamsland
                                                  Oh no! Did anyone manage to download these videos? I want to show a pressman at work but. . . . This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , May 14, 2008
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                                                    Oh no!

                                                    Did anyone manage to download these videos? I want to show a pressman
                                                    at work but. . . .

                                                    This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by British
                                                    Broadcasting Corporation


                                                    Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
                                                    Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae

                                                    On Apr 24, 2008, at 8:49 PM, Susan Angebranndt wrote:

                                                    >
                                                    > Recently there's been a series on the BBC in the UK called "The
                                                    > Medieval
                                                    > Season", and one of the installments is called "The Machine That
                                                    > Made Us",
                                                    > all about Gutenberg. Stephen Fry is the presenter and among other
                                                    > things he
                                                    > shows how the first metal type was cast and speculates about how
                                                    > the first
                                                    > press worked (there apparently aren't any extent pictures or plans
                                                    > for that
                                                    > first press). Part of the documentary is about building a working
                                                    > version
                                                    > of what that first press might have been like. You can watch the
                                                    > show on
                                                    > YouTube -- in 6 10 minute installments starting with this one:
                                                    > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91smRXrEPRs
                                                    >
                                                    > Susan
                                                    >
                                                    >



                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Erik Desmyter
                                                    ... it is still here: http://www.dontpressme.com/video/gutenberg.html Regards, Erik
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , May 14, 2008
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                                                      > Lamsland wrote: I want to show a pressman
                                                      > at work but. . . .
                                                      > This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim
                                                      > by British Broadcasting Corporation


                                                      it is still here:
                                                      http://www.dontpressme.com/video/gutenberg.html

                                                      Regards,
                                                      Erik
                                                    • Casey McGarr
                                                      Lammy, I have the video but it s about 750MB. Casey iLP
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , May 15, 2008
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                                                        Lammy,

                                                        I have the video but it's about 750MB.

                                                        Casey
                                                        iLP
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