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Re: [PPLetterpress] Altering fonts

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  • Fontdr@aol.com
    You are not in violation of any law if you don t sell your modifications under the original name. Bob Trogman Facsimile Fonts
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 14, 2002
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      You are not in violation of any law if you don't sell your modifications
      under the original name.

      Bob Trogman
      Facsimile Fonts
    • Brian Allen
      Gerald - Yes, there is a reworked version of Optima in the works from Linotype. It has been shown at 2 type conferences now, and I thought I d see it at their
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 15, 2002
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        Gerald -
        Yes, there is a reworked version of Optima in the works from Linotype. It
        has been shown at 2 type conferences now, and I thought I'd see it at their
        web site: www.fontexplorer.com now, but don't. I don't know when it will be
        available for sale. There are new weights and styles, including a true
        italic (not obliqued roman) and a titling font. Type people have mixed
        reactions to it, but Hermann Zapf was sitting next to Akira Kobayashi at the
        computer terminal directing the changes, so it is blessed by HZ. It is a
        Linotype exclusive, highly unlikely to be offered through any other
        distributor.

        While at the Linotype site, check out the newly released fonts of Adrian
        Frutiger - Icone, Iridium, and Breughal, only now converted to Type One
        format, 20+ years since they were available in phototype/CRT forms. They are
        part of the "Frutiger's Life" sets. These 3 were written about by Chuck
        Bigelow in "Fine Print on Type".

        Re: altering fonts. Not only can you not resell the font under its own name,
        you may not resell it at all. Modifying the data is called a "derivative
        work", which I'm sure is covered by the license agreement. The fine points
        of copyright/trademark issues are complicated and I am loathe to make
        blanket statements about things I don't fully understand. To strictly follow
        the rules, I believe you need permission to alter a font. In practical
        terms, I think you are OK if it's for personal use only; do not under any
        circumstance give away or sell the altered data. But I know you wouldn't do
        that anyway.
        The AIGA has a pamphlet on font usage and copyright, and while it is still
        too legalistic in tone for me, may help clarify matters. It was sent to
        members last year, but maybe it's available at their web site - aiga.org.

        Regards,
        Brian Allen
        Mountain View, CA
        Agfa Monotype employee


        on 10/14/02 1:49 PM, Gerald Lange at bieler@... wrote:

        >
        >> You can see photos of a specimen of a new version of Sabon being printed
        >> from photopolymer plates at this site:
        >> http://www.porcheztypo.com/atypi/cpbook.html
        >> The type design work has been done by Jean-François Porchez, a well known=
        >
        >
        >> French designer, for Linotype. (The site's text is also in French). This =
        >
        > new
        >> version was announced at the ATypI typography conference just concluded i=
        >
        > n
        >> Rome.
        >> Brian Allen
        >> Mountain View, California
        >
        > Brian
        >
        > Thanks for letting us know about this. The new Sabon looks great.
        >
        > What do you know about the new Optima? Do you have any information as
        > to when will that be issued? Will this be a Linotype Library release
        > or through another foundry?
        >
        > I've a project using the old Optima which I had to rework the hell
        > out of to make it work well letterpress. And then. afterward, I saw a
        > notice somewhere on the new issue!
        >
        > Gerald
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > • To respond to a post or post a message to the membership:
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      • Fontdr@aol.com
        Question: Is the use of Fontographer illegal? Many modifications are possible and are they illegal? The laws of governing modifying fonts are different in the
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 16, 2002
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          Question: Is the use of Fontographer illegal? Many modifications are possible
          and are they illegal? The laws of governing modifying fonts are different in
          the US than in Europe.
          Congress a one time considered the alphabet in the public domain and only
          the name could be protected. When it comes to software, then the legal
          battles will never cease. Incidentially, Compugraphic at one time was one of
          the biggest offenders of type theft by altering the name.
          Bob Trogman
          Facsimile Fonts
        • Gerald Lange
          ... I m not sure how much Congress was involved with the alphabet and copyright issues. But type design has been long considered an industrial practice rather
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 16, 2002
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            > Question: Is the use of Fontographer illegal? Many modifications are possible
            > and are they illegal? The laws of governing modifying fonts are different in
            > the US than in Europe.
            > Congress a one time considered the alphabet in the public domain and only
            > the name could be protected. When it comes to software, then the legal
            > battles will never cease. Incidentially, Compugraphic at one time was one of
            > the biggest offenders of type theft by altering the name.
            > Bob Trogman
            > Facsimile Fonts


            I'm not sure how much Congress was involved with the alphabet and
            copyright issues. But type design has been long considered an
            industrial practice rather than a product and I believe not
            copyrightable under US law because of this consideration and maybe as
            well by the possible restrictions that might impinge upon the user in
            consideration with the idea of freedom of speech. Well, it sounds
            reasonable! Afterall, in the US, metal type is duty free as a result.

            I think the issue is less one of copyright than breach of contract.
            When you buy the software you are entering into a contract with the
            manufacturer. I assume the wording regarding modification was
            initially intended to prevent unlawful copying or distribution: a
            slight altering of points and a change of name and off the thief
            goes. Standing alone it seems a bit odd since typeface designs are
            themselves derivative by nature.

            The long history of type foundry theft, e.g. your mention of
            Compugraphic, and there many other notorious incidents, ATF,
            Hamilton, etc, does put a shadow on all of this. I've always gotten
            the silent treatment from digital type designers when I mention that
            when Adobe unlicensed its PS font format it gave birth to the growth
            of the indy foundries, none of whom have ever paid a cent to Adobe
            for the privilege of using the formatting. So, theoretically, I guess
            I am amazed at the clamor over copying issues given the
            uncontrollable nature of digital intercourse and, especially, since
            the unlicensing of format encouraged this is the first place. The
            gift horse is a gread ride but the flies are so annoying!!!

            Never mentioned is the fact that user copying can easily be
            preventable by doing exactly what they did in the pre-digital analog
            days. Sell proprietary software and proprietary typefaces. That won't
            stop the other foundries (those that can afford to operate in such an
            environment) from stealing your stuff though...

            Gerald
          • Katie Harper
            All this talk about copyright of fonts and how broad or narrow the protections, brings up another aspect. What about type designers and what happens to their
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 17, 2002
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              All this talk about copyright of fonts and how broad or narrow the
              protections, brings up another aspect. What about type designers and what
              happens to their copyrighted artwork?

              A serious problem that also was not a factor in the analog days is the
              ability of the digital font user to actually change the way the type looks.
              I'm not talking here about the incremental changes to a font that make it
              print better on letterpress, but what is far more common: the great unwashed
              out there taking a well designed letterform and squeezing it, squashing it,
              smashing it, stretching it, pulling its legs and arms off without mercy...
              etc., all because the computer lets them do it and no one is telling them
              that maybe it's not okay... As a teacher, I spend a lot of time trying to
              instill in my students a respect for the type designer's product, but most
              people are using computers without any such guidance.

              This to me is a far greater crime. I think back to the days when Fred Goudy
              would design a font that was distributed to printers around the land,
              sleeping well at night because he could know with a reasonable certainty
              that anyone who used his fonts would produce the letterforms that he
              designed. A digital type designer sends his or her children off to a very
              cruel world. Do they just grit their teeth and wave good-by to the kids? It
              would be interesting to know if there is any legal protection for the
              designs and their integrity.


              Katie Harper
              Ars Brevis Press
              Cincinnati, OH
              513-233-9588
              http://www.arsbrevispress.com
            • Peter Fraterdeus
              Katie Good questions all! I ve been in the digital type biz since 1987, when I released Prospera and started my Alphabets, Inc. (www.alphabets.com) Prospera
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 17, 2002
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                Katie

                Good questions all!
                I've been in the digital type biz since 1987, when I released Prospera and started my "Alphabets, Inc." (www.alphabets.com)

                Prospera was the result (partially) of work I'd done under a NEA Design Project Grant, which included some study with Hermann Zapf at RIT, and research in Europe, as well as plenty of toner run through the LaserWriter ;-)

                In a word : yes.
                We must 'grit [our] teeth and wave good-by to the kids' as you put it.

                There is simply no way to sell a digital type product that can't be treated like a Doberman's favorite sock toy. Moreover, it's not only the unwashed that partake in this ;-)

                Nonetheless, I personally believe that the fine people who actually PURCHASE fonts (as opposed to the art and design students who generally "inherit" huge libraries from their educational institutions) DO respect the designers.

                Also, modern type design should, clearly, take into account the, 'plastic' nature of the instant repro technology, and be, at minimum, forgiving, or better, designed for adaptation of this nature... Of course, such efforts are easily defeated, in any case...

                At 9:02 AM -0400 2002-10-17, Katie Harper wrote:
                >All this talk about copyright of fonts and how broad or narrow the
                >protections, brings up another aspect. What about type designers and what
                >happens to their copyrighted artwork?
                >
                >A serious problem that also was not a factor in the analog days is the
                >ability of the digital font user to actually change the way the type looks.
                >I'm not talking here about the incremental changes to a font that make it
                >print better on letterpress, but what is far more common: the great unwashed
                >out there taking a well designed letterform and squeezing it, squashing it,
                >smashing it, stretching it, pulling its legs and arms off without mercy...
                >etc., all because the computer lets them do it and no one is telling them
                >that maybe it's not okay... As a teacher, I spend a lot of time trying to
                >instill in my students a respect for the type designer's product, but most
                >people are using computers without any such guidance.

                A crime, indeed, yet, in the overall perspective of real life, a petty misdemeanor.
                Would we rather have graphical computers only available to the professional, registered typographic communicator???

                No. The display of bad typography is a great boon to the exchange of ideas.
                Also, it makes our meticulous work look even better than it deserves l;-)

                While the majority will continue to use dtp software with results that make us queasy, there are those that have begun on the path to enlightenment, sometimes through the gentle prodding of teachers like yourself, other times, simply by coming to the realization that there's something that designers do that seems to make a positive difference in how well that message is received.

                >
                >This to me is a far greater crime. I think back to the days when Fred Goudy
                >would design a font that was distributed to printers around the land,
                >sleeping well at night because he could know with a reasonable certainty
                >that anyone who used his fonts would produce the letterforms that he

                Fred Goudy lost plenty of sleep, precisely because many of those printers were using his letterforms from foundries that blatantly stole and reproduced them!

                >designed. A digital type designer sends his or her children off to a very
                >cruel world. Do they just grit their teeth and wave good-by to the kids? It
                >would be interesting to know if there is any legal protection for the
                >designs and their integrity.

                Not in the US, other than design patents, which are harder to enforce, due to need to prove 'uniqueness'. Design patents are given for furniture lines, table ware, etc...

                In Europe there are far stronger protections on the actual shapes of the letters. Here, the only thing that CAN be copyrighted is the SOFTWARE that produces the outlines! (and thus the data points and any derivatives thereof.)

                >Katie Harper
                >Ars Brevis Press
                >Cincinnati, OH
                >513-233-9588
                http://www.arsbrevispress.com

                Nonetheless, as I mentioned, those that BUY fonts are not usually the ones that worry them.
                Also, some of the high end boutique 'foundries' charge enormous prices and include extra goodies (letterpress booklets among them if I recall) to provide their users with an 'incentive', if you will, to, first, not give the font away to all their friends, and second, to use it with knowledge and respect...

                In any case, I've come a long way from my early typographic conservatism (I'm still a social liberal ;-) and I now feel that freedom to communicate is far more important than fussy, possibly elitist notions about OTHER people's use of type. This (I hope) clearly doesn't mean that >>I<< would abuse a beautiful design for shock value ;-)

                Cheers!

                Peter

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                www.semiotx.com Magical Images from the Moon's Garden!

                Save Our Congress from Moralistic Right-Wing Rubberstamp-ism.
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              • caldrich45
                As long as the font is for your own use and you don t sell or give the altered font away, you can do what you want with it. I believe that is fair use. You
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 31, 2002
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                  As long as the font is for your own use and you don't sell or give the altered
                  font away, you can do what you want with it. I believe that is "fair use." You
                  can tear pages out of a book and highlight and cross out passages if you so
                  desire. you can paint over someone else's canvas if you have purchased a
                  painting. To me, this is no different. I belieive that legally, fonts are not
                  copyrighted, only the name. Once you alter it, you should rename it, it then
                  becomes a different font.
                • Gerald Lange
                  Hi Yes, I think there is a legal simularity between the physical object that one is in possession of versus the intellectual effort of the creator... But when
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 31, 2002
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                    Hi

                    Yes, I think there is a legal simularity between the physical object
                    that one is in possession of versus the intellectual effort of the
                    creator...

                    But when you rename a font as far as I know the code name, the FOND
                    identification, is not altered. Could be wrong about that but I thought
                    both FOG and FL don't alter this. Maybe I'm confused about this?

                    Gerald

                    caldrich45 wrote:

                    >As long as the font is for your own use and you don't sell or give the altered
                    >font away, you can do what you want with it. I believe that is "fair use." You
                    >can tear pages out of a book and highlight and cross out passages if you so
                    >desire. you can paint over someone else's canvas if you have purchased a
                    >painting. To me, this is no different. I belieive that legally, fonts are not
                    >copyrighted, only the name. Once you alter it, you should rename it, it then
                    >becomes a different font.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Brian Allen
                    RE: regenerating font files in Fontographer (version 4+ for the Mac) - one can change the FOND ID number when making Macintosh PostScript fonts. When you get
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 3, 2002
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                      RE: regenerating font files in Fontographer (version 4+ for the Mac) - one
                      can change the FOND ID number when making Macintosh PostScript fonts.
                      When you get to the "Generate Font Files" dialog and ask for a Macintosh
                      font, you'll see on the right side of the dialog: "Bitmap font to output"
                      "Format: NFNT, ID:xxxxx" (some number will be here)
                      This is the FOND ID number to change (use one less than 15,000)
                      When altering a font for personal use, one should both alter the name AND
                      the FOND ID number, to be sure ATM, application, and printer driver aren't
                      confused. And further, it's best to reboot your machine and printer to clear
                      cached memory of font ID numbers before installing the new font.
                      Brian Allen
                      who works in font production for Agfa Monotype
                      Mountain View, California
                      -----------
                      on 10/31/02 8:43 AM, Gerald Lange at bieler@... wrote:

                      > Hi
                      >
                      > Yes, I think there is a legal simularity between the physical object
                      > that one is in possession of versus the intellectual effort of the
                      > creator...
                      >
                      > But when you rename a font as far as I know the code name, the FOND
                      > identification, is not altered. Could be wrong about that but I thought
                      > both FOG and FL don't alter this. Maybe I'm confused about this?
                      >
                      > Gerald
                      >
                      > caldrich45 wrote:
                      >
                      >> As long as the font is for your own use and you don't sell or give the
                      >> altered
                      >> font away, you can do what you want with it. I believe that is "fair use."
                      >> You
                      >> can tear pages out of a book and highlight and cross out passages if you so
                      >> desire. you can paint over someone else's canvas if you have purchased a
                      >> painting. To me, this is no different. I belieive that legally, fonts are not
                      >> copyrighted, only the name. Once you alter it, you should rename it, it then
                      >> becomes a different font.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ? To respond to a post or post a message to the membership:
                      > PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                      > ? Encountering problems? contact:
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                      >
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                      >
                    • Gerald Lange
                      ... Brian Thanks. I ve never done this and thus far neither my laser printer or any imagesetter that has been used has been confused. (?) Am I just lucky? I ve
                      Message 10 of 18 , Nov 3, 2002
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                        Brian Allen wrote:

                        >RE: regenerating font files in Fontographer (version 4+ for the Mac) - one
                        >can change the FOND ID number when making Macintosh PostScript fonts.
                        >When you get to the "Generate Font Files" dialog and ask for a Macintosh
                        >font, you'll see on the right side of the dialog: "Bitmap font to output"
                        >"Format: NFNT, ID:xxxxx" (some number will be here)
                        >This is the FOND ID number to change (use one less than 15,000)
                        >When altering a font for personal use, one should both alter the name AND
                        >the FOND ID number, to be sure ATM, application, and printer driver aren't
                        >confused. And further, it's best to reboot your machine and printer to clear
                        >cached memory of font ID numbers before installing the new font.
                        >Brian Allen
                        >who works in font production for Agfa Monotype
                        >Mountain View, California
                        >
                        >

                        Brian

                        Thanks. I've never done this and thus far neither my laser printer or
                        any imagesetter that has been used has been confused. (?) Am I just lucky?

                        I've been trying to put together a cheat sheet on FL like I did for FOG.
                        I see no real controls to recalc bitmaps or import metric info from the
                        original font like one would do in FOG. I've talked to an FL tech and he
                        says you don't have to, FL does it automatically. Well not from the
                        looks of the fonts I've generated. Spacing attributes are not correct at
                        all. Any tips and tricks? The manual is a complete nightmare, though I
                        must say I do like the Transformation Range capabilities.

                        Gerald

                        >
                        >
                      • Brian Allen
                        Gerald - I expect you ve been a little lucky. When you open the printer font file in Fontographer the first time and then generate a new Mac font + bitmap
                        Message 11 of 18 , Nov 3, 2002
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                          Gerald -
                          I expect you've been a little lucky. When you open the printer font file in
                          Fontographer the first time and then generate a new Mac font + bitmap
                          suitcase, a new FOND number is randomly generated. If you reopen that FOG
                          database file to make further alterations, Fontographer keeps that same FOND
                          ID when generating the new font files. This is where you might get fooled
                          and not see a change you thought you made.
                          Generally speaking, when a font is downloaded to an output device, the font
                          ID is checked. If a laser printer, say, already has something with that
                          number, theoretically it won't download a new font with the same ID and will
                          use the font data it had already cached. But with the level of complexity
                          now between operating systems, ATM, printer drivers, etc., it's hard to know
                          what goes on!
                          At work when I'm testing changes to PostScript fonts I reboot everything
                          between new installations, to be confident I am seeing the latest. (And I'm
                          using a specific FOND ID throughout the production cycle, so that's a reason
                          for continual rebooting.)
                          Brian Allen
                          Mountain View, CA

                          on 11/3/02 8:24 PM, Gerald Lange at bieler@... wrote:
                          > Brian
                          >
                          > Thanks. I've never done this and thus far neither my laser printer or
                          > any imagesetter that has been used has been confused. (?) Am I just lucky?
                          >
                          > I've been trying to put together a cheat sheet on FL like I did for FOG.
                          > I see no real controls to recalc bitmaps or import metric info from the
                          > original font like one would do in FOG. I've talked to an FL tech and he
                          > says you don't have to, FL does it automatically. Well not from the
                          > looks of the fonts I've generated. Spacing attributes are not correct at
                          > all. Any tips and tricks? The manual is a complete nightmare, though I
                          > must say I do like the Transformation Range capabilities.
                          >
                          > Gerald

                          >
                          >
                          > Brian Allen wrote:
                          >
                          >> RE: regenerating font files in Fontographer (version 4+ for the Mac) - one
                          >> can change the FOND ID number when making Macintosh PostScript fonts.
                          >> When you get to the "Generate Font Files" dialog and ask for a Macintosh
                          >> font, you'll see on the right side of the dialog: "Bitmap font to output"
                          >> "Format: NFNT, ID:xxxxx" (some number will be here)
                          >> This is the FOND ID number to change (use one less than 15,000)
                          >> When altering a font for personal use, one should both alter the name AND
                          >> the FOND ID number, to be sure ATM, application, and printer driver aren't
                          >> confused. And further, it's best to reboot your machine and printer to clear
                          >> cached memory of font ID numbers before installing the new font.
                          >> Brian Allen
                          >> who works in font production for Agfa Monotype
                          >> Mountain View, California
                          >>
                          >
                          > ? To respond to a post or post a message to the membership:
                          > PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                          > ? Encountering problems? contact:
                          > PPLetterpress-owner@yahoogroups.com
                          > ? To unsubscribe:
                          > PPLetterpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                        • Gerald Lange
                          ... file in ... that FOG ... same FOND ... fooled ... the font ... and will ... complexity ... to know ... (And I m ... a reason ... A long, long time ago a
                          Message 12 of 18 , Nov 3, 2002
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                            --- In PPLetterpress@y..., Brian Allen <allenprinter@y...> wrote:
                            > Gerald -
                            > I expect you've been a little lucky. When you open the printer font
                            file in
                            > Fontographer the first time and then generate a new Mac font + bitmap
                            > suitcase, a new FOND number is randomly generated. If you reopen
                            that FOG
                            > database file to make further alterations, Fontographer keeps that
                            same FOND
                            > ID when generating the new font files. This is where you might get
                            fooled
                            > and not see a change you thought you made.
                            > Generally speaking, when a font is downloaded to an output device,
                            the font
                            > ID is checked. If a laser printer, say, already has something with that
                            > number, theoretically it won't download a new font with the same ID
                            and will
                            > use the font data it had already cached. But with the level of
                            complexity
                            > now between operating systems, ATM, printer drivers, etc., it's hard
                            to know
                            > what goes on!
                            > At work when I'm testing changes to PostScript fonts I reboot everything
                            > between new installations, to be confident I am seeing the latest.
                            (And I'm
                            > using a specific FOND ID throughout the production cycle, so that's
                            a reason
                            > for continual rebooting.)
                            > Brian Allen


                            A long, long time ago a tech at Altsys told me never to regenerate
                            from one of their database files so I've always just tossed them.
                            Guess that was good advice.

                            I note that FontLab constructs a ghost font during the entire process,
                            somehow linking this with ATM (for the previews), and then dumps it
                            when the font is saved.. I've been tossing their database files as
                            well. Though I suspect one should start saving the AFM files as we
                            move ever closer to current and forthcoming technologies. (?).

                            Gerald

                            Gerald
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