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Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: PPWeirdness

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  • Peter Fraterdeus
    ... Hi Lisa Yes, safer... Sadly, it s not really an option as these are in drop ceiling installed fixtures. I m trying to come up with some kind of options,
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 2, 2008
      On 2 Feb 2008, at 2:36 PM, Lisa Davidson wrote:
      > Peter,
      >
      > As you probably know, fluorescent light bulbs put out a lot of UV,
      > so much that you can make a perfectly good contact print onto a
      > platinum emulsion from a close-up bank of fluorescent bulbs in 24
      > hours. If you change them all to tungsten, it will cost more in
      > electricity, but the light will be safer.
      >
      > Lisa


      Hi Lisa

      Yes, safer... Sadly, it's not really an option as these are in 'drop
      ceiling' installed fixtures. I'm trying to come up with some kind of
      options, but not much comes to mind...

      Wish I could just jump all the way to LEDs ;-)

      Ciao
      p


      Peter Fraterdeus
      http://ExquisiteLetterpress.com
      http://dubuquebookarts.com
    • lokkenprint
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 3, 2008
        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...> wrote: > > On 2 Feb 2008, at 2:36 PM, Lisa Davidson wrote: > > Peter, > > > > As you probably know, fluorescent light bulbs put out a lot of UV, > > so much that you can make a perfectly good contact print onto a > > platinum emulsion from a close-up bank of fluorescent bulbs in 24 > > hours. If you change them all to tungsten, it will cost more in > > electricity, but the light will be safer. > > > > Lisa > > > Hi Lisa > > Yes, safer... Sadly, it's not really an option as these are in 'drop > ceiling' installed fixtures. I'm trying to come up with some kind of > options, but not much comes to mind... > > Wish I could just jump all the way to LEDs ;-) > > Ciao > p > > > Peter Fraterdeus > http://ExquisiteLetterpress.com > http://dubuquebookarts.com > In my platemaking area, I have amber tubes that cover my flourescent bulbs. They block the UV spectrum. They should still be available through Xpedx or Valley Litho. I would not recommend these tubes in a press area as they would affect color perception. Sumner
      • Russ Wiecking - Wood and Metal Craft
        It might be useful to keep in mind that the amount of light on the plate is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the source. This benefits
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 4, 2008
          It might be useful to keep in mind that the amount of light on the
          plate is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the
          source. This benefits in that doubling the distance from plate to light
          source decreases the light to 1/4 of the original, quadrupling the
          distance decreases it to 1/16 of the original, and so on. What might
          currently be a 24 hour exposure time, would become a 96 hour exposure
          time if the distance is doubled. You may only need bulb covers in the
          immediate vicinity so that the remaining bulbs are an acceptable
          distance. Maybe there could be a horizontal shade just below a few
          lights that you could pull when you handle film. Or re-wire to switch
          them off...It would be good to know the distance and number of bulbs
          referenced in Lisa's note so you can get a feel for how likely it is
          that your lights are really an issue.

          Russ


          On Feb 3, 2008, at 9:42 AM, lokkenprint wrote:

          > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...>
          > wrote: > > On 2 Feb 2008, at 2:36 PM, Lisa Davidson
          > wrote: > > Peter, > > > > As you probably
          > know, fluorescent light bulbs put out a lot of UV, > > so
          > much that you can make a perfectly good contact print onto
          > a > > platinum emulsion from a close-up bank of fluorescent
          > bulbs in 24 > > hours. If you change them all to tungsten, it
          > will cost more in > > electricity, but the light will be
          > safer. > > > > Lisa > >
          > > Hi Lisa > > Yes, safer... Sadly, it's
          > not really an option as these are in 'drop > ceiling'
          > installed fixtures. I'm trying to come up with some kind of
          > > options, but not much comes to mind... >
          > > Wish I could just jump all the way to LEDs ;-) >
          > > Ciao > p > > > Peter
          > Fraterdeus > http://ExquisiteLetterpress.com >
          > http://dubuquebookarts.com > In my
          > platemaking area, I have amber tubes that cover my
          > flourescent bulbs. They block the UV spectrum. They should
          > still be available through Xpedx or Valley Litho. I would not
          > recommend these tubes in a press area as they would affect
          > color perception. Sumner
          >
          >
          >
        • Peter Fraterdeus
          Hi Russ The room is about 15x35 with an eight foot drop-ceiling in which are 16 four-tube fixtures, each lamp being, what, 25W so 100W in each fixture? pretty
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 4, 2008
            Hi Russ

            The room is about 15x35 with an eight foot drop-ceiling in which are 16 four-tube fixtures, each lamp being, what, 25W so 100W in each fixture?
            pretty much anywhere in the room will be within 10 feet line-of-sight from a bulb.
            Your suggestion confirms what I was thinking which is to put the filters on the fixtures in the immediate vicinity of the platemaker, and where I'm cutting the material.

            Regards
            P


            At 8:53 AM -0800 4 02 08, Russ Wiecking - Wood and Metal Craft wrote:
            >.... You may only need bulb covers in the
            >immediate vicinity so that the remaining bulbs are an acceptable
            >distance. Maybe there could be a horizontal shade just below a few
            >lights that you could pull when you handle film. Or re-wire to switch
            >them off...It would be good to know the distance and number of bulbs
            >referenced in Lisa's note so you can get a feel for how likely it is
            >that your lights are really an issue.
            >
            >Russ

            --
            AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
            {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!}

            ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com

            -:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*
            Peter Fraterdeus http://www.alphabets.com : Sign up for "MiceType"!
            Galena, Illinois Design Philosophy Fonts Lettering Letterpress Wood Type
            Dubuque, Iowa http://www.fraterdeus.com
            Photography Irish Fiddle Political Observation
            http://flickr.com/photos/pfraterdeus
            http://youtube.com/user/pfraterdeus
          • John G. Henry
            I d have to think that there is not enough density in the negatives you are using. There should be no way that exposure occurs in the non- image areas of the
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 5, 2008
              I'd have to think that there is not enough density in the negatives
              you are using. There should be no way that exposure occurs in the non-
              image areas of the plate (evidenced by the reprodcution of the vaccum
              channels, and long wash-out times). The image of the vacuum channels
              is most likely produced by reflection of the channels into the plate
              from the back. You will probably notice that the milled channels are
              shiny metal while the bed is more matte or subdued. I have not seen
              this happen in my own plates, but is simply conjecture on my part.

              If you hold the negative up to a bright light source (bare bulb), and
              pass something behind the film, can you detect the object moving and
              see an outline of it in the dark negative areas? If so, you probably
              do not have high enough density in the film. Check some other
              negatives which have worked well for you and see if there appears to
              be a difference in density.

              Density in negatives can vary a bit, but the whole process depends on
              the contrast between the dark and clear areas on the film. Another
              potential problem can be that there is some denisty in the clear
              areas which can cause your exposures to increase, which increases the
              likelihood that variance in black density can be a problem.

              John Henry
              Cedar Creek Press
            • Peter Fraterdeus
              Hi John Thanks for the thoughts. I m investigating a number of concerns with this issue. I do think the negs are a little thin, but they are from a loca offset
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 5, 2008
                Hi John

                Thanks for the thoughts.
                I'm investigating a number of concerns with this issue.
                I do think the negs are a little thin, but they are from a loca offset printer who uses the same machine for his negatives. So, not likely to change, anyway.
                However, I've had perfect results with the same negatives, so I don't think that's the problem

                The vacuum grid is the weirdest thing, since the "exposure" passes right through both clear and black areas on the negative. It's as if it's exposed from underneath. Yet, the channels themselves are black, not metallic...

                Anyway, it does seem the most likely culprit is fogging, which I put down to the excessively bright florescent lighting in the shop. I'm looking into options to manage that a bit...

                Best
                Peter


                >I'd have to think that there is not enough density in the negatives
                >you are using. There should be no way that exposure occurs in the non-
                >image areas of the plate (evidenced by the reprodcution of the vaccum
                >channels, and long wash-out times). The image of the vacuum channels
                >is most likely produced by reflection of the channels into the plate
                >from the back. You will probably notice that the milled channels are
                >shiny metal while the bed is more matte or subdued. I have not seen
                >this happen in my own plates, but is simply conjecture on my part.
                >
                >If you hold the negative up to a bright light source (bare bulb), and
                >pass something behind the film, can you detect the object moving and
                >see an outline of it in the dark negative areas? If so, you probably
                >do not have high enough density in the film. Check some other
                >negatives which have worked well for you and see if there appears to
                >be a difference in density.
                >
                >Density in negatives can vary a bit, but the whole process depends on
                >the contrast between the dark and clear areas on the film. Another
                >potential problem can be that there is some denisty in the clear
                >areas which can cause your exposures to increase, which increases the
                >likelihood that variance in black density can be a problem.
                >
                >John Henry
                >Cedar Creek Press
                >
                >


                --
                AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!}

                ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com

                -:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*
                Peter Fraterdeus http://www.alphabets.com : Sign up for "MiceType"!
                Galena, Illinois Design Philosophy Fonts Lettering Letterpress Wood Type
                Dubuque, Iowa http://www.fraterdeus.com
                Photography Irish Fiddle Political Observation
                http://flickr.com/photos/pfraterdeus
                http://youtube.com/user/pfraterdeus
              • kringds
                Hi Gerald, I was browsing the archives on dampening paper and came across your post below in which you seem suprised at the dampening of Lettra. Could you tell
                Message 7 of 23 , May 8, 2008
                  Hi Gerald,

                  I was browsing the archives on dampening paper and came across your post below in
                  which you seem suprised at the dampening of Lettra. Could you tell me why you were
                  supprised?

                  I am getting ready to print a job on 32# lettra and am debating if I should dampen the
                  paper. I will be printing on polymer plates with primarily line art with black ink.

                  I have dampened heavier weight paper before with good results but I am wondering if it
                  makes sense for a lighter weight paper. I assume it does. Could you or anyone with
                  experience let me know their opinion on this?

                  As always, thanks for the help and advice.

                  bryan kring



                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Probably. I still have demon catchers hanging from the ceiling, though
                  > I have taken down all the tribute images of Moloch.
                  >
                  > Dampened Lettra!!! Interesting.
                  >
                  > Gerald
                  > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Yes. As noted I've had plenty of good luck before Mercury retrograde
                  > started ;-)
                  > > These little 'antelope' greeting cards were done with the 'old'
                  > yellow pp... ( dampened Lettra on the V219)
                  > >
                  > http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com/cards/exquisitegreetingcards/archive/samples/
                  unique-invitation-designs-by-kf/P1020933.JPG
                  > >
                  > > Maybe it's the wrong Moon sign for platemaking?
                  > >
                  > > Ciao
                  > > p
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Gerald Lange
                  Hi Bryan My thinking is that commercial grade papers tend not to respond well to dampening. Primarily because of dominant grain direction and external sizing.
                  Message 8 of 23 , May 9, 2008
                    Hi Bryan

                    My thinking is that commercial grade papers tend not to respond well to
                    dampening. Primarily because of dominant grain direction and external
                    sizing.

                    I think the only commercial grade that I dampen is Curtis Flannel but my
                    suspicion, is that it might actually have been a mouldmade, coming from
                    the Scottish mills that Curtis owned. We had it tested once and the
                    report came back that it consisted of tobacco leaves. I believe it was
                    engine sized. Great printing paper no longer with us.

                    One of my students had some double ply Lettra last semester. A very
                    thick sheet that she was attempting to print on the Vandercook. Not only
                    did the layers split apart but the entire back ply was warped throughout
                    the heap. Might have been a bad lot or badly stored. Not a big fan.

                    I don't know that you need to dampen on thinner stock. Most of the text
                    weight mouldmades print well without dampening, though they do respond
                    well when dampened. I guess I'd suggest dampening only when you really
                    need to do it.

                    An aside, but it does relate to the old thread you encountered. I
                    believe some was asking about the bulging between letters that they were
                    experiencing when printing on Cranes Lettra with the "deep relief"
                    plate. I occurred to me the other day that the problem arises from
                    relief depth. Subtract the relief thickness of a plate from the plate
                    thickness and you get its relief depth. A Toyobo 95 mm K series plate
                    has a 65 mm relief thickness. A Toyobo 1.52 mm K series plate has a 1.22
                    mm relief thickness. Thus, surprise, surprise, they both have a relief
                    depth of .30 mm. While the 152 is deeper (thicker) from surface to
                    floor, material in close proximity at the surface (small text,
                    letterform counters, etc) however, is limited to the relief depth.
                    That's just the way the formation process works. Any other ratio in
                    regard to relief depth would make the plate unstable. Thus you will get
                    the bulging effect when you over impress as you are extending beyond the
                    capability of the plate. The paper has to do something under the forced
                    pressure so it bulges out where it can or even cracks. This would also
                    account for the loss of isolated dots, fine lines, etc, on these plates
                    under severe impression as they simply have no support.

                    Gerald
                    http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                    kringds wrote:
                    > Hi Gerald,
                    >
                    > I was browsing the archives on dampening paper and came across your post below in
                    > which you seem suprised at the dampening of Lettra. Could you tell me why you were
                    > supprised?
                    >
                    > I am getting ready to print a job on 32# lettra and am debating if I should dampen the
                    > paper. I will be printing on polymer plates with primarily line art with black ink.
                    >
                    > I have dampened heavier weight paper before with good results but I am wondering if it
                    > makes sense for a lighter weight paper. I assume it does. Could you or anyone with
                    > experience let me know their opinion on this?
                    >
                    > As always, thanks for the help and advice.
                    >
                    > bryan kring
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >> Probably. I still have demon catchers hanging from the ceiling, though
                    >> I have taken down all the tribute images of Moloch.
                    >>
                    >> Dampened Lettra!!! Interesting.
                    >>
                    >> Gerald
                    >> http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>> Yes. As noted I've had plenty of good luck before Mercury retrograde
                    >>>
                    >> started ;-)
                    >>
                    >>> These little 'antelope' greeting cards were done with the 'old'
                    >>>
                    >> yellow pp... ( dampened Lettra on the V219)
                    >>
                    >> http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com/cards/exquisitegreetingcards/archive/samples/
                    >>
                    > unique-invitation-designs-by-kf/P1020933.JPG
                    >
                    >>> Maybe it's the wrong Moon sign for platemaking?
                    >>>
                    >>> Ciao
                    >>> p
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >
                  • Peter Fraterdeus
                    Bryan, Gerald, Dampening worked well on the 300gsm Lettra Assuming one is doing single color work, variation in grain doesn t really come into it. Also, even
                    Message 9 of 23 , May 9, 2008
                      Bryan, Gerald,

                      Dampening worked well on the 300gsm Lettra
                      Assuming one is doing single color work, variation in grain doesn't
                      really come into it.
                      Also, even with multiple colors, keeping the stock lightly wrapped
                      between impressions will minimize dimensional variation.

                      Double ply, 600gsm, I can imagine may be a problem on the cylinder,
                      yes...

                      As far as the other concern that Gerald alludes to, the plate in
                      question was neither of the Toyobos, but a leftover that was acquired
                      previously. I've had none of these problems with the Toyobo 152. One
                      thing is that I've found that keeping the washout to the absolute
                      minimum is critical, and often pull the plate while there are still
                      small amounts of material adhering to the backing. (about 4.5 minutes)
                      With this, I get lovely shoulders on even isolated thin rules and
                      dots...

                      My concern had nothing to do with "bulging" between the letters, but
                      the fact that there was so little definition between the letters, so
                      that the whole line of type appeared to be surrounded by a slight
                      depression caused by very shallow shoulders. With the Toyobo (either
                      95 or 152) I've not had this problem. While the impression was not
                      wimpy, neither was it excessive. There is never embossing on the verso.

                      Cheers
                      P


                      On 8 May 2008, at 6:43 PM, kringds wrote:
                      > Hi Gerald,
                      >
                      > I was browsing the archives on dampening paper and came across your
                      > post below in
                      > which you seem suprised at the dampening of Lettra. Could you tell
                      > me why you were
                      > supprised?
                      >
                      > I am getting ready to print a job on 32# lettra and am debating if I
                      > should dampen the
                      > paper. I will be printing on polymer plates with primarily line art
                      > with black ink.
                      >
                      > I have dampened heavier weight paper before with good results but I
                      > am wondering if it
                      > makes sense for a lighter weight paper. I assume it does. Could you
                      > or anyone with
                      > experience let me know their opinion on this?
                      >
                      > As always, thanks for the help and advice.
                      >
                      > bryan kring

                      Peter Fraterdeus
                      Exquisite Letterpress
                      http://slowprint.com
                    • Gerald Lange
                      Peter Don t know that the other concern was in reference to you, but you might even want to back down to 4 minutes on washout for the Toyobo 152s. It ll leave
                      Message 10 of 23 , May 9, 2008
                        Peter

                        Don't know that the other concern was in reference to you, but you
                        might even want to back down to 4 minutes on washout for the Toyobo
                        152s. It 'll leave a bit of residue and not look as nice as one might
                        hope, but it will definitely prevent undercutting and ensure support.
                        These are steel-backs. Don't know about the polyester-backed 152s.

                        The Toybobo 95s are a dream plate. Perfectly clean at 3.5 minute
                        washout, no residue, no undercutting, steel- or polyester-backed.

                        Gerald
                        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Bryan, Gerald,
                        >
                        > Dampening worked well on the 300gsm Lettra
                        > Assuming one is doing single color work, variation in grain doesn't
                        > really come into it.
                        > Also, even with multiple colors, keeping the stock lightly wrapped
                        > between impressions will minimize dimensional variation.
                        >
                        > Double ply, 600gsm, I can imagine may be a problem on the cylinder,
                        > yes...
                        >
                        > As far as the other concern that Gerald alludes to, the plate in
                        > question was neither of the Toyobos, but a leftover that was acquired
                        > previously. I've had none of these problems with the Toyobo 152. One
                        > thing is that I've found that keeping the washout to the absolute
                        > minimum is critical, and often pull the plate while there are still
                        > small amounts of material adhering to the backing. (about 4.5 minutes)
                        > With this, I get lovely shoulders on even isolated thin rules and
                        > dots...
                        >
                        > My concern had nothing to do with "bulging" between the letters, but
                        > the fact that there was so little definition between the letters, so
                        > that the whole line of type appeared to be surrounded by a slight
                        > depression caused by very shallow shoulders. With the Toyobo (either
                        > 95 or 152) I've not had this problem. While the impression was not
                        > wimpy, neither was it excessive. There is never embossing on the verso.
                        >
                        > Cheers
                        > P
                        >
                        >
                        > On 8 May 2008, at 6:43 PM, kringds wrote:
                        > > Hi Gerald,
                        > >
                        > > I was browsing the archives on dampening paper and came across your
                        > > post below in
                        > > which you seem suprised at the dampening of Lettra. Could you tell
                        > > me why you were
                        > > supprised?
                        > >
                        > > I am getting ready to print a job on 32# lettra and am debating if I
                        > > should dampen the
                        > > paper. I will be printing on polymer plates with primarily line art
                        > > with black ink.
                        > >
                        > > I have dampened heavier weight paper before with good results but I
                        > > am wondering if it
                        > > makes sense for a lighter weight paper. I assume it does. Could you
                        > > or anyone with
                        > > experience let me know their opinion on this?
                        > >
                        > > As always, thanks for the help and advice.
                        > >
                        > > bryan kring
                        >
                        > Peter Fraterdeus
                        > Exquisite Letterpress
                        > http://slowprint.com
                        >
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