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Re: PPWeirdness

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  • Gerald Lange
    Hi again Those Toyobo KF95s should wash out in 3.5 minutes max, at least, with the new formula. Exposure ratings depend upon what kind of lamps you are using.
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 2, 2008
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      Hi again

      Those Toyobo KF95s should wash out in 3.5 minutes max, at least, with
      the new formula. Exposure ratings depend upon what kind of lamps you
      are using. I'm running these at 3 minutes with the TLK 40W/10R lamps.
      Temp in bath at 90 degrees F, 12 minutes in the oven, 150 degrees F. 6
      minutes in post exposure. I use the same formula for the KM95s and
      have never experienced a plate problem myself or received any feedback
      from clients that would indicate a problem with this configuration.

      Note that a lot of the old formula KF/KM95 lingers about among
      distributors and it did require longer exposure and washout times, and
      this can cause some confusion.

      You really should NOT have to screw around cutting into the plates and
      inserting interlay. Something is quite wrong when and if that is the
      only solution.

      Gerald
      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Gerald
      >
      > >Hard to give any useful advice without knowing what manufacturer and
      > >brand of plate you are using, including the code for size/hardness. You
      > >can't switch plates and use the same formula, each is going to be
      > >different. Yellow and clear really isn't a lot of information, Peter.
      >
      > The clear back is from Boxcar, the 67 hardness, I think, standard
      depth. KF95
      >
      http://www.boxcarpress.com/photopolymer-supplies/photopolymer-plates.html
      >
      > The yellow is leftovers which arrived along with the Interflex, I
      think they were probably from Boxcar as well. Again, I've made
      perfectly good plates with both of these....
      >
      >
      >
      > > From the pics, doesn't look like you are washing them out long enough.
      >
      > This is after five minutes.
      > But the weirdest thing is that "Grid"
      > It matches the location of the vacuum grid...
      >
      >
      > >Never seen anything like this before. Even the earlier plates aren't
      > >washed out fully. Plates should look mechanically "pretty" when you are
      > >done (especially if you are selling them). These look like some organic
      > >mess. Before and after.
      >
      > Oh yes, it's very strange...
      > They've been gorgeous before this started happening.
      >
      > >
      > >How cold is it there? If you are processing below 68 degrees room
      > >temperature, you can have some very strange problems.
      >
      > Hmmm.. Maybe.
      > But the platemaker is definitely warmer than that.
      > The room varies between 62 and 76 due to a flaky thermostat and
      furnace... (that is, I am always adjusting the thermostat since it
      can't seem to keep a constant temp)
      >
      > Indeed, maybe I should get a new thermostat for the press-room!
      >
      > As it turns out, Amber made a very good suggestion which was to
      underlay the tiny spots in the plate that was otherwise perfect, which
      I finally did, and am now printing with fine results!
      > All the plates made tonight were useless, but two nano-triangles of
      .002 tissue precisely placed with the ever-present x-acto(r) knive
      made the difference.
      >
      >
      > Thanks very much Gerald, I deeply appreciate the input.
      >
      > Regards from west Siberia on the Mississippi....
      >
      > p.
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      >
      -:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*
      > Peter Fraterdeus * PO Box 248 * Galena, Illinois * 61036 * USA
      > ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com
      >
    • Gerald Lange
      Probably. I still have demon catchers hanging from the ceiling, though I have taken down all the tribute images of Moloch. Dampened Lettra!!! Interesting.
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 2, 2008
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        Probably. I still have demon catchers hanging from the ceiling, though
        I have taken down all the tribute images of Moloch.

        Dampened Lettra!!! Interesting.

        Gerald
        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


        >
        > Yes. As noted I've had plenty of good luck before Mercury retrograde
        started ;-)
        > These little 'antelope' greeting cards were done with the 'old'
        yellow pp... ( dampened Lettra on the V219)
        >
        http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com/cards/exquisitegreetingcards/archive/samples/unique-invitation-designs-by-kf/P1020933.JPG
        >
        > Maybe it's the wrong Moon sign for platemaking?
        >
        > Ciao
        > p
        >
        >
      • Peter Fraterdeus
        ... Hey, it can t hurt to stay on the right side of the powers that be. Mercury, after all being the patron of scribes, and communication... The Lettra was
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 2, 2008
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          At 9:02 AM +0000 2 02 08, Gerald Lange wrote:
          >At 3:51 AM -0600 2 02 08, Peter Fraterdeus wrote:
          >> Maybe it's the wrong Moon sign for platemaking?
          >>>
          >>> Ciao
          >> > p
          >Probably. I still have demon catchers hanging from the ceiling, though
          >I have taken down all the tribute images of Moloch.
          >
          >Dampened Lettra!!! Interesting.
          >


          Hey, it can't hurt to stay on the right side of the powers that be.
          Mercury, after all being the patron of scribes, and communication...

          The Lettra was dampened by leaving it for a day in a Rubbermaid storage box between blotters with some big sponges. Just damp enough for that nice flat impression...

          Well, 4am approaches, and thank goodness, phase one of the bilingual, two-sided, double-paneled, seven piece invitation set is done. I think I'll take tomorrow off!
          :-)

          p

          --
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        • Harold Kyle
          Peter: This happens when either the film you re using doesn t have enough density or else the plate was exposed to too much ambient light prior to exposure. I
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 2, 2008
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            Peter:

            This happens when either the film you're using doesn't have enough
            density or else the plate was exposed to too much ambient light prior to
            exposure.

            I don't think it's the film because the unwashed areas are different on
            each plate. To test the film, hold the black part of the film over your
            eyes and look toward a light bulb. If the film has enough density,
            chances are you won't be able to see the light bulb through the film.

            Could you have left your black bag unsealed, or left the plate on a
            light table or in ambient light for fifteen minutes or more? This would
            result. If you feel the plates arrived in this condition, and we
            supplied these to you, you should speak with Cathy on Monday to discuss
            replacement plates. All our stock is arrives fresh every quarter and is
            a newer formulation of KF95 material. Although unusual, if there was any
            mis-handling on our end, we will certainly replace your plates.

            Thanks,
            Harold
          • Peter Fraterdeus
            Harold Thanks very much for the thoughts on this. Well, the same film had been used for plates which were aok earlier. However they do seem a bit light to me,
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 2, 2008
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              Harold
              Thanks very much for the thoughts on this.
              Well, the same film had been used for plates which were aok earlier.
              However they do seem a bit light to me, but then I'm in a very bright room, which leads to...

              How much ambient light is too much?
              I'm in a shop which is "well" lit (if any such adjective can be applied to 16 banks of 4 florescent bulbs)

              I suppose it's very possible that the small pieces I've been using are the ends of larger pieces which have been pulled out of the bag a number of times. I will review my handling procedures!

              However, I still don't understand the grid marks from the vacuum frame!

              Thanks very much for your thoughts!

              peter


              At 10:58 AM -0500 2 02 08, Harold Kyle wrote:
              >Peter:
              >
              >This happens when either the film you're using doesn't have enough
              >density or else the plate was exposed to too much ambient light prior to
              >exposure.
              >
              >I don't think it's the film because the unwashed areas are different on
              >each plate. To test the film, hold the black part of the film over your
              >eyes and look toward a light bulb. If the film has enough density,
              >chances are you won't be able to see the light bulb through the film.
              >
              >Could you have left your black bag unsealed, or left the plate on a
              >light table or in ambient light for fifteen minutes or more? This would
              >result. If you feel the plates arrived in this condition, and we
              >supplied these to you, you should speak with Cathy on Monday to discuss
              >replacement plates. All our stock is arrives fresh every quarter and is
              >a newer formulation of KF95 material. Although unusual, if there was any
              >mis-handling on our end, we will certainly replace your plates.
              >
              >Thanks,
              >Harold
              >
              >
              >
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >


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              Peter Fraterdeus http://www.alphabets.com : Sign up for "MiceType"!
              Galena, Illinois Design Philosophy Fonts Lettering Letterpress Wood Type
              Dubuque, Iowa http://www.fraterdeus.com
              Photography Irish Fiddle Political Observation
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            • parallel_imp
              ... showing what seems to be the grid pattern of the vacuum frame, which is also embossed to a degree in the krene. ... Peter, if that pattern is caused
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 2, 2008
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                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...> wrote:

                >
                > Up until this last one, the clear had been ok, but now it is also
                showing what seems to be the grid pattern of the vacuum frame, which
                is also embossed to a degree in the krene.
                >
                Peter, if that pattern is caused somehow by the vaccum grooves, I can
                think of two possible correctives. If it is caused by light being
                reflected back from the groove, you could put yellow or masking paper
                or rubylith behind the plate when exposing. If it somehow a mechanical
                artifact, which is hard to imagine, try putting a stiffener behind the
                plate, like a piece of blank steel-backed photopolymer plate.
                But it still depends on stray light getting into the non-image area,
                and the other problems do look a bit like either fogging or thin
                negatives. Either condition causes overexposure of non-image area.
                --Eric Holub, SF
              • Peter Fraterdeus
                ... Eric Thanks for the observations. I will talk to my film processor, although, as noted, previous plates from the same film were ok Fogging makes sense,
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 2, 2008
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                  >...
                  > But it still depends on stray light getting into the non-image area,
                  >and the other problems do look a bit like either fogging or thin
                  >negatives. Either condition causes overexposure of non-image area.
                  > --Eric Holub, SF


                  Eric

                  Thanks for the observations.
                  I will talk to my film processor, although, as noted, previous plates from the same film were ok

                  Fogging makes sense, although I was (incorrectly, I see) under the impression that since the polymer requires high intensity short UV (the dangerous kind, no?) that typical ambient light during handling, ie, removal from the bag to cut to size, wouldn't be a problem.
                  Hmm.

                  Just a lazy question: where can one find data sheets on the photopolymers, ie handling policies, exposure, etc?

                  p


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                  ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com

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                  Peter Fraterdeus http://www.alphabets.com : Sign up for "MiceType"!
                  Galena, Illinois Design Philosophy Fonts Lettering Letterpress Wood Type
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                  Photography Irish Fiddle Political Observation
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                  http://youtube.com/user/pfraterdeus
                • Lisa Davidson
                  Peter, As you probably know, fluorescent light bulbs put out a lot of UV, so much that you can make a perfectly good contact print onto a platinum emulsion
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 2, 2008
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                    Peter,

                    As you probably know, fluorescent light bulbs put out a lot of UV,
                    so much that you can make a perfectly good contact print onto a
                    platinum emulsion from a close-up bank of fluorescent bulbs in 24
                    hours. If you change them all to tungsten, it will cost more in
                    electricity, but the light will be safer.

                    Lisa


                    On Feb 2, 2008, at 12:17 PM, Peter Fraterdeus wrote:

                    > >...
                    > > But it still depends on stray light getting into the non-image area,
                    > >and the other problems do look a bit like either fogging or thin
                    > >negatives. Either condition causes overexposure of non-image area.
                    > > --Eric Holub, SF
                    >
                    > Eric
                    >
                    > Thanks for the observations.
                    > I will talk to my film processor, although, as noted, previous
                    > plates from the same film were ok
                    >
                    > Fogging makes sense, although I was (incorrectly, I see) under the
                    > impression that since the polymer requires high intensity short UV
                    > (the dangerous kind, no?) that typical ambient light during
                    > handling, ie, removal from the bag to cut to size, wouldn't be a
                    > problem.
                    > Hmm.
                    >
                    > Just a lazy question: where can one find data sheets on the
                    > photopolymers, ie handling policies, exposure, etc?
                    >
                    > p
                    >
                    > --
                    > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                    > {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!}
                    >
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                    >
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                    > Galena, Illinois Design Philosophy Fonts Lettering Letterpress Wood
                    > Type
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                    > http://youtube.com/user/pfraterdeus
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Peter Fraterdeus
                    ... Hi Lisa Yes, safer... Sadly, it s not really an option as these are in drop ceiling installed fixtures. I m trying to come up with some kind of options,
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 2, 2008
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                      On 2 Feb 2008, at 2:36 PM, Lisa Davidson wrote:
                      > Peter,
                      >
                      > As you probably know, fluorescent light bulbs put out a lot of UV,
                      > so much that you can make a perfectly good contact print onto a
                      > platinum emulsion from a close-up bank of fluorescent bulbs in 24
                      > hours. If you change them all to tungsten, it will cost more in
                      > electricity, but the light will be safer.
                      >
                      > Lisa


                      Hi Lisa

                      Yes, safer... Sadly, it's not really an option as these are in 'drop
                      ceiling' installed fixtures. I'm trying to come up with some kind of
                      options, but not much comes to mind...

                      Wish I could just jump all the way to LEDs ;-)

                      Ciao
                      p


                      Peter Fraterdeus
                      http://ExquisiteLetterpress.com
                      http://dubuquebookarts.com
                    • lokkenprint
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 3, 2008
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                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...> wrote: > > On 2 Feb 2008, at 2:36 PM, Lisa Davidson wrote: > > Peter, > > > > As you probably know, fluorescent light bulbs put out a lot of UV, > > so much that you can make a perfectly good contact print onto a > > platinum emulsion from a close-up bank of fluorescent bulbs in 24 > > hours. If you change them all to tungsten, it will cost more in > > electricity, but the light will be safer. > > > > Lisa > > > Hi Lisa > > Yes, safer... Sadly, it's not really an option as these are in 'drop > ceiling' installed fixtures. I'm trying to come up with some kind of > options, but not much comes to mind... > > Wish I could just jump all the way to LEDs ;-) > > Ciao > p > > > Peter Fraterdeus > http://ExquisiteLetterpress.com > http://dubuquebookarts.com > In my platemaking area, I have amber tubes that cover my flourescent bulbs. They block the UV spectrum. They should still be available through Xpedx or Valley Litho. I would not recommend these tubes in a press area as they would affect color perception. Sumner
                      • Russ Wiecking - Wood and Metal Craft
                        It might be useful to keep in mind that the amount of light on the plate is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the source. This benefits
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 4, 2008
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                          It might be useful to keep in mind that the amount of light on the
                          plate is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the
                          source. This benefits in that doubling the distance from plate to light
                          source decreases the light to 1/4 of the original, quadrupling the
                          distance decreases it to 1/16 of the original, and so on. What might
                          currently be a 24 hour exposure time, would become a 96 hour exposure
                          time if the distance is doubled. You may only need bulb covers in the
                          immediate vicinity so that the remaining bulbs are an acceptable
                          distance. Maybe there could be a horizontal shade just below a few
                          lights that you could pull when you handle film. Or re-wire to switch
                          them off...It would be good to know the distance and number of bulbs
                          referenced in Lisa's note so you can get a feel for how likely it is
                          that your lights are really an issue.

                          Russ


                          On Feb 3, 2008, at 9:42 AM, lokkenprint wrote:

                          > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...>
                          > wrote: > > On 2 Feb 2008, at 2:36 PM, Lisa Davidson
                          > wrote: > > Peter, > > > > As you probably
                          > know, fluorescent light bulbs put out a lot of UV, > > so
                          > much that you can make a perfectly good contact print onto
                          > a > > platinum emulsion from a close-up bank of fluorescent
                          > bulbs in 24 > > hours. If you change them all to tungsten, it
                          > will cost more in > > electricity, but the light will be
                          > safer. > > > > Lisa > >
                          > > Hi Lisa > > Yes, safer... Sadly, it's
                          > not really an option as these are in 'drop > ceiling'
                          > installed fixtures. I'm trying to come up with some kind of
                          > > options, but not much comes to mind... >
                          > > Wish I could just jump all the way to LEDs ;-) >
                          > > Ciao > p > > > Peter
                          > Fraterdeus > http://ExquisiteLetterpress.com >
                          > http://dubuquebookarts.com > In my
                          > platemaking area, I have amber tubes that cover my
                          > flourescent bulbs. They block the UV spectrum. They should
                          > still be available through Xpedx or Valley Litho. I would not
                          > recommend these tubes in a press area as they would affect
                          > color perception. Sumner
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Peter Fraterdeus
                          Hi Russ The room is about 15x35 with an eight foot drop-ceiling in which are 16 four-tube fixtures, each lamp being, what, 25W so 100W in each fixture? pretty
                          Message 12 of 23 , Feb 4, 2008
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                            Hi Russ

                            The room is about 15x35 with an eight foot drop-ceiling in which are 16 four-tube fixtures, each lamp being, what, 25W so 100W in each fixture?
                            pretty much anywhere in the room will be within 10 feet line-of-sight from a bulb.
                            Your suggestion confirms what I was thinking which is to put the filters on the fixtures in the immediate vicinity of the platemaker, and where I'm cutting the material.

                            Regards
                            P


                            At 8:53 AM -0800 4 02 08, Russ Wiecking - Wood and Metal Craft wrote:
                            >.... You may only need bulb covers in the
                            >immediate vicinity so that the remaining bulbs are an acceptable
                            >distance. Maybe there could be a horizontal shade just below a few
                            >lights that you could pull when you handle film. Or re-wire to switch
                            >them off...It would be good to know the distance and number of bulbs
                            >referenced in Lisa's note so you can get a feel for how likely it is
                            >that your lights are really an issue.
                            >
                            >Russ

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                          • John G. Henry
                            I d have to think that there is not enough density in the negatives you are using. There should be no way that exposure occurs in the non- image areas of the
                            Message 13 of 23 , Feb 5, 2008
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                              I'd have to think that there is not enough density in the negatives
                              you are using. There should be no way that exposure occurs in the non-
                              image areas of the plate (evidenced by the reprodcution of the vaccum
                              channels, and long wash-out times). The image of the vacuum channels
                              is most likely produced by reflection of the channels into the plate
                              from the back. You will probably notice that the milled channels are
                              shiny metal while the bed is more matte or subdued. I have not seen
                              this happen in my own plates, but is simply conjecture on my part.

                              If you hold the negative up to a bright light source (bare bulb), and
                              pass something behind the film, can you detect the object moving and
                              see an outline of it in the dark negative areas? If so, you probably
                              do not have high enough density in the film. Check some other
                              negatives which have worked well for you and see if there appears to
                              be a difference in density.

                              Density in negatives can vary a bit, but the whole process depends on
                              the contrast between the dark and clear areas on the film. Another
                              potential problem can be that there is some denisty in the clear
                              areas which can cause your exposures to increase, which increases the
                              likelihood that variance in black density can be a problem.

                              John Henry
                              Cedar Creek Press
                            • Peter Fraterdeus
                              Hi John Thanks for the thoughts. I m investigating a number of concerns with this issue. I do think the negs are a little thin, but they are from a loca offset
                              Message 14 of 23 , Feb 5, 2008
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                                Hi John

                                Thanks for the thoughts.
                                I'm investigating a number of concerns with this issue.
                                I do think the negs are a little thin, but they are from a loca offset printer who uses the same machine for his negatives. So, not likely to change, anyway.
                                However, I've had perfect results with the same negatives, so I don't think that's the problem

                                The vacuum grid is the weirdest thing, since the "exposure" passes right through both clear and black areas on the negative. It's as if it's exposed from underneath. Yet, the channels themselves are black, not metallic...

                                Anyway, it does seem the most likely culprit is fogging, which I put down to the excessively bright florescent lighting in the shop. I'm looking into options to manage that a bit...

                                Best
                                Peter


                                >I'd have to think that there is not enough density in the negatives
                                >you are using. There should be no way that exposure occurs in the non-
                                >image areas of the plate (evidenced by the reprodcution of the vaccum
                                >channels, and long wash-out times). The image of the vacuum channels
                                >is most likely produced by reflection of the channels into the plate
                                >from the back. You will probably notice that the milled channels are
                                >shiny metal while the bed is more matte or subdued. I have not seen
                                >this happen in my own plates, but is simply conjecture on my part.
                                >
                                >If you hold the negative up to a bright light source (bare bulb), and
                                >pass something behind the film, can you detect the object moving and
                                >see an outline of it in the dark negative areas? If so, you probably
                                >do not have high enough density in the film. Check some other
                                >negatives which have worked well for you and see if there appears to
                                >be a difference in density.
                                >
                                >Density in negatives can vary a bit, but the whole process depends on
                                >the contrast between the dark and clear areas on the film. Another
                                >potential problem can be that there is some denisty in the clear
                                >areas which can cause your exposures to increase, which increases the
                                >likelihood that variance in black density can be a problem.
                                >
                                >John Henry
                                >Cedar Creek Press
                                >
                                >


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                                Galena, Illinois Design Philosophy Fonts Lettering Letterpress Wood Type
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                              • kringds
                                Hi Gerald, I was browsing the archives on dampening paper and came across your post below in which you seem suprised at the dampening of Lettra. Could you tell
                                Message 15 of 23 , May 8, 2008
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                                  Hi Gerald,

                                  I was browsing the archives on dampening paper and came across your post below in
                                  which you seem suprised at the dampening of Lettra. Could you tell me why you were
                                  supprised?

                                  I am getting ready to print a job on 32# lettra and am debating if I should dampen the
                                  paper. I will be printing on polymer plates with primarily line art with black ink.

                                  I have dampened heavier weight paper before with good results but I am wondering if it
                                  makes sense for a lighter weight paper. I assume it does. Could you or anyone with
                                  experience let me know their opinion on this?

                                  As always, thanks for the help and advice.

                                  bryan kring



                                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Probably. I still have demon catchers hanging from the ceiling, though
                                  > I have taken down all the tribute images of Moloch.
                                  >
                                  > Dampened Lettra!!! Interesting.
                                  >
                                  > Gerald
                                  > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > Yes. As noted I've had plenty of good luck before Mercury retrograde
                                  > started ;-)
                                  > > These little 'antelope' greeting cards were done with the 'old'
                                  > yellow pp... ( dampened Lettra on the V219)
                                  > >
                                  > http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com/cards/exquisitegreetingcards/archive/samples/
                                  unique-invitation-designs-by-kf/P1020933.JPG
                                  > >
                                  > > Maybe it's the wrong Moon sign for platemaking?
                                  > >
                                  > > Ciao
                                  > > p
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Gerald Lange
                                  Hi Bryan My thinking is that commercial grade papers tend not to respond well to dampening. Primarily because of dominant grain direction and external sizing.
                                  Message 16 of 23 , May 9, 2008
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                                    Hi Bryan

                                    My thinking is that commercial grade papers tend not to respond well to
                                    dampening. Primarily because of dominant grain direction and external
                                    sizing.

                                    I think the only commercial grade that I dampen is Curtis Flannel but my
                                    suspicion, is that it might actually have been a mouldmade, coming from
                                    the Scottish mills that Curtis owned. We had it tested once and the
                                    report came back that it consisted of tobacco leaves. I believe it was
                                    engine sized. Great printing paper no longer with us.

                                    One of my students had some double ply Lettra last semester. A very
                                    thick sheet that she was attempting to print on the Vandercook. Not only
                                    did the layers split apart but the entire back ply was warped throughout
                                    the heap. Might have been a bad lot or badly stored. Not a big fan.

                                    I don't know that you need to dampen on thinner stock. Most of the text
                                    weight mouldmades print well without dampening, though they do respond
                                    well when dampened. I guess I'd suggest dampening only when you really
                                    need to do it.

                                    An aside, but it does relate to the old thread you encountered. I
                                    believe some was asking about the bulging between letters that they were
                                    experiencing when printing on Cranes Lettra with the "deep relief"
                                    plate. I occurred to me the other day that the problem arises from
                                    relief depth. Subtract the relief thickness of a plate from the plate
                                    thickness and you get its relief depth. A Toyobo 95 mm K series plate
                                    has a 65 mm relief thickness. A Toyobo 1.52 mm K series plate has a 1.22
                                    mm relief thickness. Thus, surprise, surprise, they both have a relief
                                    depth of .30 mm. While the 152 is deeper (thicker) from surface to
                                    floor, material in close proximity at the surface (small text,
                                    letterform counters, etc) however, is limited to the relief depth.
                                    That's just the way the formation process works. Any other ratio in
                                    regard to relief depth would make the plate unstable. Thus you will get
                                    the bulging effect when you over impress as you are extending beyond the
                                    capability of the plate. The paper has to do something under the forced
                                    pressure so it bulges out where it can or even cracks. This would also
                                    account for the loss of isolated dots, fine lines, etc, on these plates
                                    under severe impression as they simply have no support.

                                    Gerald
                                    http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                                    kringds wrote:
                                    > Hi Gerald,
                                    >
                                    > I was browsing the archives on dampening paper and came across your post below in
                                    > which you seem suprised at the dampening of Lettra. Could you tell me why you were
                                    > supprised?
                                    >
                                    > I am getting ready to print a job on 32# lettra and am debating if I should dampen the
                                    > paper. I will be printing on polymer plates with primarily line art with black ink.
                                    >
                                    > I have dampened heavier weight paper before with good results but I am wondering if it
                                    > makes sense for a lighter weight paper. I assume it does. Could you or anyone with
                                    > experience let me know their opinion on this?
                                    >
                                    > As always, thanks for the help and advice.
                                    >
                                    > bryan kring
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >> Probably. I still have demon catchers hanging from the ceiling, though
                                    >> I have taken down all the tribute images of Moloch.
                                    >>
                                    >> Dampened Lettra!!! Interesting.
                                    >>
                                    >> Gerald
                                    >> http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>> Yes. As noted I've had plenty of good luck before Mercury retrograde
                                    >>>
                                    >> started ;-)
                                    >>
                                    >>> These little 'antelope' greeting cards were done with the 'old'
                                    >>>
                                    >> yellow pp... ( dampened Lettra on the V219)
                                    >>
                                    >> http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com/cards/exquisitegreetingcards/archive/samples/
                                    >>
                                    > unique-invitation-designs-by-kf/P1020933.JPG
                                    >
                                    >>> Maybe it's the wrong Moon sign for platemaking?
                                    >>>
                                    >>> Ciao
                                    >>> p
                                    >>>
                                    >>>
                                    >>>
                                    >>>
                                    >
                                  • Peter Fraterdeus
                                    Bryan, Gerald, Dampening worked well on the 300gsm Lettra Assuming one is doing single color work, variation in grain doesn t really come into it. Also, even
                                    Message 17 of 23 , May 9, 2008
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                                      Bryan, Gerald,

                                      Dampening worked well on the 300gsm Lettra
                                      Assuming one is doing single color work, variation in grain doesn't
                                      really come into it.
                                      Also, even with multiple colors, keeping the stock lightly wrapped
                                      between impressions will minimize dimensional variation.

                                      Double ply, 600gsm, I can imagine may be a problem on the cylinder,
                                      yes...

                                      As far as the other concern that Gerald alludes to, the plate in
                                      question was neither of the Toyobos, but a leftover that was acquired
                                      previously. I've had none of these problems with the Toyobo 152. One
                                      thing is that I've found that keeping the washout to the absolute
                                      minimum is critical, and often pull the plate while there are still
                                      small amounts of material adhering to the backing. (about 4.5 minutes)
                                      With this, I get lovely shoulders on even isolated thin rules and
                                      dots...

                                      My concern had nothing to do with "bulging" between the letters, but
                                      the fact that there was so little definition between the letters, so
                                      that the whole line of type appeared to be surrounded by a slight
                                      depression caused by very shallow shoulders. With the Toyobo (either
                                      95 or 152) I've not had this problem. While the impression was not
                                      wimpy, neither was it excessive. There is never embossing on the verso.

                                      Cheers
                                      P


                                      On 8 May 2008, at 6:43 PM, kringds wrote:
                                      > Hi Gerald,
                                      >
                                      > I was browsing the archives on dampening paper and came across your
                                      > post below in
                                      > which you seem suprised at the dampening of Lettra. Could you tell
                                      > me why you were
                                      > supprised?
                                      >
                                      > I am getting ready to print a job on 32# lettra and am debating if I
                                      > should dampen the
                                      > paper. I will be printing on polymer plates with primarily line art
                                      > with black ink.
                                      >
                                      > I have dampened heavier weight paper before with good results but I
                                      > am wondering if it
                                      > makes sense for a lighter weight paper. I assume it does. Could you
                                      > or anyone with
                                      > experience let me know their opinion on this?
                                      >
                                      > As always, thanks for the help and advice.
                                      >
                                      > bryan kring

                                      Peter Fraterdeus
                                      Exquisite Letterpress
                                      http://slowprint.com
                                    • Gerald Lange
                                      Peter Don t know that the other concern was in reference to you, but you might even want to back down to 4 minutes on washout for the Toyobo 152s. It ll leave
                                      Message 18 of 23 , May 9, 2008
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                                        Peter

                                        Don't know that the other concern was in reference to you, but you
                                        might even want to back down to 4 minutes on washout for the Toyobo
                                        152s. It 'll leave a bit of residue and not look as nice as one might
                                        hope, but it will definitely prevent undercutting and ensure support.
                                        These are steel-backs. Don't know about the polyester-backed 152s.

                                        The Toybobo 95s are a dream plate. Perfectly clean at 3.5 minute
                                        washout, no residue, no undercutting, steel- or polyester-backed.

                                        Gerald
                                        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Bryan, Gerald,
                                        >
                                        > Dampening worked well on the 300gsm Lettra
                                        > Assuming one is doing single color work, variation in grain doesn't
                                        > really come into it.
                                        > Also, even with multiple colors, keeping the stock lightly wrapped
                                        > between impressions will minimize dimensional variation.
                                        >
                                        > Double ply, 600gsm, I can imagine may be a problem on the cylinder,
                                        > yes...
                                        >
                                        > As far as the other concern that Gerald alludes to, the plate in
                                        > question was neither of the Toyobos, but a leftover that was acquired
                                        > previously. I've had none of these problems with the Toyobo 152. One
                                        > thing is that I've found that keeping the washout to the absolute
                                        > minimum is critical, and often pull the plate while there are still
                                        > small amounts of material adhering to the backing. (about 4.5 minutes)
                                        > With this, I get lovely shoulders on even isolated thin rules and
                                        > dots...
                                        >
                                        > My concern had nothing to do with "bulging" between the letters, but
                                        > the fact that there was so little definition between the letters, so
                                        > that the whole line of type appeared to be surrounded by a slight
                                        > depression caused by very shallow shoulders. With the Toyobo (either
                                        > 95 or 152) I've not had this problem. While the impression was not
                                        > wimpy, neither was it excessive. There is never embossing on the verso.
                                        >
                                        > Cheers
                                        > P
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On 8 May 2008, at 6:43 PM, kringds wrote:
                                        > > Hi Gerald,
                                        > >
                                        > > I was browsing the archives on dampening paper and came across your
                                        > > post below in
                                        > > which you seem suprised at the dampening of Lettra. Could you tell
                                        > > me why you were
                                        > > supprised?
                                        > >
                                        > > I am getting ready to print a job on 32# lettra and am debating if I
                                        > > should dampen the
                                        > > paper. I will be printing on polymer plates with primarily line art
                                        > > with black ink.
                                        > >
                                        > > I have dampened heavier weight paper before with good results but I
                                        > > am wondering if it
                                        > > makes sense for a lighter weight paper. I assume it does. Could you
                                        > > or anyone with
                                        > > experience let me know their opinion on this?
                                        > >
                                        > > As always, thanks for the help and advice.
                                        > >
                                        > > bryan kring
                                        >
                                        > Peter Fraterdeus
                                        > Exquisite Letterpress
                                        > http://slowprint.com
                                        >
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