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Re: [PPLetterpress] PPWeirdness

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  • Peter Fraterdeus
    Hi Gerald ... The clear back is from Boxcar, the 67 hardness, I think, standard depth. KF95
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 1, 2008
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      Hi Gerald

      >Hard to give any useful advice without knowing what manufacturer and
      >brand of plate you are using, including the code for size/hardness. You
      >can't switch plates and use the same formula, each is going to be
      >different. Yellow and clear really isn't a lot of information, Peter.

      The clear back is from Boxcar, the 67 hardness, I think, standard depth. KF95
      http://www.boxcarpress.com/photopolymer-supplies/photopolymer-plates.html

      The yellow is leftovers which arrived along with the Interflex, I think they were probably from Boxcar as well. Again, I've made perfectly good plates with both of these....



      > From the pics, doesn't look like you are washing them out long enough.

      This is after five minutes.
      But the weirdest thing is that "Grid"
      It matches the location of the vacuum grid...


      >Never seen anything like this before. Even the earlier plates aren't
      >washed out fully. Plates should look mechanically "pretty" when you are
      >done (especially if you are selling them). These look like some organic
      >mess. Before and after.

      Oh yes, it's very strange...
      They've been gorgeous before this started happening.

      >
      >How cold is it there? If you are processing below 68 degrees room
      >temperature, you can have some very strange problems.

      Hmmm.. Maybe.
      But the platemaker is definitely warmer than that.
      The room varies between 62 and 76 due to a flaky thermostat and furnace... (that is, I am always adjusting the thermostat since it can't seem to keep a constant temp)

      Indeed, maybe I should get a new thermostat for the press-room!

      As it turns out, Amber made a very good suggestion which was to underlay the tiny spots in the plate that was otherwise perfect, which I finally did, and am now printing with fine results!
      All the plates made tonight were useless, but two nano-triangles of .002 tissue precisely placed with the ever-present x-acto(r) knive made the difference.


      Thanks very much Gerald, I deeply appreciate the input.

      Regards from west Siberia on the Mississippi....

      p.



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      Peter Fraterdeus * PO Box 248 * Galena, Illinois * 61036 * USA
      ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com
    • Peter Fraterdeus
      ... Really? I ll have to dig around. Thanks for the pointer! ... I don t know. It is very weird though, and disconcerting, as I can t see what has changed from
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 2, 2008
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        >That grid pattern from the vacuum frame is something I have never seen
        >before. Weird to see it manifesting in the plate. I think there was
        >some discussion here previously, specifically related to the Interflex
        >and polyester-backed plates.

        Really? I'll have to dig around. Thanks for the pointer!

        > I thought a solution had been proffered?
        >I've not experienced this with the A&V and polyester-backed plates. Is
        >there something weird about the grooves? Too thick, different
        >coloration or something (that might effect the UV)?

        I don't know. It is very weird though, and disconcerting, as I can't see what has changed from one plate to the next. It's as if the film is not dense enough, or something, but unless that can change over time, it's been fine up 'til now!

        >
        >When properly exposed and washed out, plates should look more like this:
        >http://www.flickr.com/photos/28027653@N00/36562226/

        Yes. As noted I've had plenty of good luck before Mercury retrograde started ;-)
        These little 'antelope' greeting cards were done with the 'old' yellow pp... ( dampened Lettra on the V219)
        http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com/cards/exquisitegreetingcards/archive/samples/unique-invitation-designs-by-kf/P1020933.JPG

        Maybe it's the wrong Moon sign for platemaking?

        Ciao
        p


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      • Gerald Lange
        Hi again Those Toyobo KF95s should wash out in 3.5 minutes max, at least, with the new formula. Exposure ratings depend upon what kind of lamps you are using.
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 2, 2008
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          Hi again

          Those Toyobo KF95s should wash out in 3.5 minutes max, at least, with
          the new formula. Exposure ratings depend upon what kind of lamps you
          are using. I'm running these at 3 minutes with the TLK 40W/10R lamps.
          Temp in bath at 90 degrees F, 12 minutes in the oven, 150 degrees F. 6
          minutes in post exposure. I use the same formula for the KM95s and
          have never experienced a plate problem myself or received any feedback
          from clients that would indicate a problem with this configuration.

          Note that a lot of the old formula KF/KM95 lingers about among
          distributors and it did require longer exposure and washout times, and
          this can cause some confusion.

          You really should NOT have to screw around cutting into the plates and
          inserting interlay. Something is quite wrong when and if that is the
          only solution.

          Gerald
          http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Gerald
          >
          > >Hard to give any useful advice without knowing what manufacturer and
          > >brand of plate you are using, including the code for size/hardness. You
          > >can't switch plates and use the same formula, each is going to be
          > >different. Yellow and clear really isn't a lot of information, Peter.
          >
          > The clear back is from Boxcar, the 67 hardness, I think, standard
          depth. KF95
          >
          http://www.boxcarpress.com/photopolymer-supplies/photopolymer-plates.html
          >
          > The yellow is leftovers which arrived along with the Interflex, I
          think they were probably from Boxcar as well. Again, I've made
          perfectly good plates with both of these....
          >
          >
          >
          > > From the pics, doesn't look like you are washing them out long enough.
          >
          > This is after five minutes.
          > But the weirdest thing is that "Grid"
          > It matches the location of the vacuum grid...
          >
          >
          > >Never seen anything like this before. Even the earlier plates aren't
          > >washed out fully. Plates should look mechanically "pretty" when you are
          > >done (especially if you are selling them). These look like some organic
          > >mess. Before and after.
          >
          > Oh yes, it's very strange...
          > They've been gorgeous before this started happening.
          >
          > >
          > >How cold is it there? If you are processing below 68 degrees room
          > >temperature, you can have some very strange problems.
          >
          > Hmmm.. Maybe.
          > But the platemaker is definitely warmer than that.
          > The room varies between 62 and 76 due to a flaky thermostat and
          furnace... (that is, I am always adjusting the thermostat since it
          can't seem to keep a constant temp)
          >
          > Indeed, maybe I should get a new thermostat for the press-room!
          >
          > As it turns out, Amber made a very good suggestion which was to
          underlay the tiny spots in the plate that was otherwise perfect, which
          I finally did, and am now printing with fine results!
          > All the plates made tonight were useless, but two nano-triangles of
          .002 tissue precisely placed with the ever-present x-acto(r) knive
          made the difference.
          >
          >
          > Thanks very much Gerald, I deeply appreciate the input.
          >
          > Regards from west Siberia on the Mississippi....
          >
          > p.
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          >
          -:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*
          > Peter Fraterdeus * PO Box 248 * Galena, Illinois * 61036 * USA
          > ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com
          >
        • Gerald Lange
          Probably. I still have demon catchers hanging from the ceiling, though I have taken down all the tribute images of Moloch. Dampened Lettra!!! Interesting.
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 2, 2008
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            Probably. I still have demon catchers hanging from the ceiling, though
            I have taken down all the tribute images of Moloch.

            Dampened Lettra!!! Interesting.

            Gerald
            http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


            >
            > Yes. As noted I've had plenty of good luck before Mercury retrograde
            started ;-)
            > These little 'antelope' greeting cards were done with the 'old'
            yellow pp... ( dampened Lettra on the V219)
            >
            http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com/cards/exquisitegreetingcards/archive/samples/unique-invitation-designs-by-kf/P1020933.JPG
            >
            > Maybe it's the wrong Moon sign for platemaking?
            >
            > Ciao
            > p
            >
            >
          • Peter Fraterdeus
            ... Hey, it can t hurt to stay on the right side of the powers that be. Mercury, after all being the patron of scribes, and communication... The Lettra was
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 2, 2008
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              At 9:02 AM +0000 2 02 08, Gerald Lange wrote:
              >At 3:51 AM -0600 2 02 08, Peter Fraterdeus wrote:
              >> Maybe it's the wrong Moon sign for platemaking?
              >>>
              >>> Ciao
              >> > p
              >Probably. I still have demon catchers hanging from the ceiling, though
              >I have taken down all the tribute images of Moloch.
              >
              >Dampened Lettra!!! Interesting.
              >


              Hey, it can't hurt to stay on the right side of the powers that be.
              Mercury, after all being the patron of scribes, and communication...

              The Lettra was dampened by leaving it for a day in a Rubbermaid storage box between blotters with some big sponges. Just damp enough for that nice flat impression...

              Well, 4am approaches, and thank goodness, phase one of the bilingual, two-sided, double-paneled, seven piece invitation set is done. I think I'll take tomorrow off!
              :-)

              p

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              Galena, Illinois Design Philosophy Fonts Lettering Letterpress Wood Type
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            • Harold Kyle
              Peter: This happens when either the film you re using doesn t have enough density or else the plate was exposed to too much ambient light prior to exposure. I
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 2, 2008
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                Peter:

                This happens when either the film you're using doesn't have enough
                density or else the plate was exposed to too much ambient light prior to
                exposure.

                I don't think it's the film because the unwashed areas are different on
                each plate. To test the film, hold the black part of the film over your
                eyes and look toward a light bulb. If the film has enough density,
                chances are you won't be able to see the light bulb through the film.

                Could you have left your black bag unsealed, or left the plate on a
                light table or in ambient light for fifteen minutes or more? This would
                result. If you feel the plates arrived in this condition, and we
                supplied these to you, you should speak with Cathy on Monday to discuss
                replacement plates. All our stock is arrives fresh every quarter and is
                a newer formulation of KF95 material. Although unusual, if there was any
                mis-handling on our end, we will certainly replace your plates.

                Thanks,
                Harold
              • Peter Fraterdeus
                Harold Thanks very much for the thoughts on this. Well, the same film had been used for plates which were aok earlier. However they do seem a bit light to me,
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 2, 2008
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                  Harold
                  Thanks very much for the thoughts on this.
                  Well, the same film had been used for plates which were aok earlier.
                  However they do seem a bit light to me, but then I'm in a very bright room, which leads to...

                  How much ambient light is too much?
                  I'm in a shop which is "well" lit (if any such adjective can be applied to 16 banks of 4 florescent bulbs)

                  I suppose it's very possible that the small pieces I've been using are the ends of larger pieces which have been pulled out of the bag a number of times. I will review my handling procedures!

                  However, I still don't understand the grid marks from the vacuum frame!

                  Thanks very much for your thoughts!

                  peter


                  At 10:58 AM -0500 2 02 08, Harold Kyle wrote:
                  >Peter:
                  >
                  >This happens when either the film you're using doesn't have enough
                  >density or else the plate was exposed to too much ambient light prior to
                  >exposure.
                  >
                  >I don't think it's the film because the unwashed areas are different on
                  >each plate. To test the film, hold the black part of the film over your
                  >eyes and look toward a light bulb. If the film has enough density,
                  >chances are you won't be able to see the light bulb through the film.
                  >
                  >Could you have left your black bag unsealed, or left the plate on a
                  >light table or in ambient light for fifteen minutes or more? This would
                  >result. If you feel the plates arrived in this condition, and we
                  >supplied these to you, you should speak with Cathy on Monday to discuss
                  >replacement plates. All our stock is arrives fresh every quarter and is
                  >a newer formulation of KF95 material. Although unusual, if there was any
                  >mis-handling on our end, we will certainly replace your plates.
                  >
                  >Thanks,
                  >Harold
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >


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                  {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!}

                  ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com

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                  Peter Fraterdeus http://www.alphabets.com : Sign up for "MiceType"!
                  Galena, Illinois Design Philosophy Fonts Lettering Letterpress Wood Type
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                • parallel_imp
                  ... showing what seems to be the grid pattern of the vacuum frame, which is also embossed to a degree in the krene. ... Peter, if that pattern is caused
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 2, 2008
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                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > Up until this last one, the clear had been ok, but now it is also
                    showing what seems to be the grid pattern of the vacuum frame, which
                    is also embossed to a degree in the krene.
                    >
                    Peter, if that pattern is caused somehow by the vaccum grooves, I can
                    think of two possible correctives. If it is caused by light being
                    reflected back from the groove, you could put yellow or masking paper
                    or rubylith behind the plate when exposing. If it somehow a mechanical
                    artifact, which is hard to imagine, try putting a stiffener behind the
                    plate, like a piece of blank steel-backed photopolymer plate.
                    But it still depends on stray light getting into the non-image area,
                    and the other problems do look a bit like either fogging or thin
                    negatives. Either condition causes overexposure of non-image area.
                    --Eric Holub, SF
                  • Peter Fraterdeus
                    ... Eric Thanks for the observations. I will talk to my film processor, although, as noted, previous plates from the same film were ok Fogging makes sense,
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 2, 2008
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                      >...
                      > But it still depends on stray light getting into the non-image area,
                      >and the other problems do look a bit like either fogging or thin
                      >negatives. Either condition causes overexposure of non-image area.
                      > --Eric Holub, SF


                      Eric

                      Thanks for the observations.
                      I will talk to my film processor, although, as noted, previous plates from the same film were ok

                      Fogging makes sense, although I was (incorrectly, I see) under the impression that since the polymer requires high intensity short UV (the dangerous kind, no?) that typical ambient light during handling, ie, removal from the bag to cut to size, wouldn't be a problem.
                      Hmm.

                      Just a lazy question: where can one find data sheets on the photopolymers, ie handling policies, exposure, etc?

                      p


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                    • Lisa Davidson
                      Peter, As you probably know, fluorescent light bulbs put out a lot of UV, so much that you can make a perfectly good contact print onto a platinum emulsion
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 2, 2008
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                        Peter,

                        As you probably know, fluorescent light bulbs put out a lot of UV,
                        so much that you can make a perfectly good contact print onto a
                        platinum emulsion from a close-up bank of fluorescent bulbs in 24
                        hours. If you change them all to tungsten, it will cost more in
                        electricity, but the light will be safer.

                        Lisa


                        On Feb 2, 2008, at 12:17 PM, Peter Fraterdeus wrote:

                        > >...
                        > > But it still depends on stray light getting into the non-image area,
                        > >and the other problems do look a bit like either fogging or thin
                        > >negatives. Either condition causes overexposure of non-image area.
                        > > --Eric Holub, SF
                        >
                        > Eric
                        >
                        > Thanks for the observations.
                        > I will talk to my film processor, although, as noted, previous
                        > plates from the same film were ok
                        >
                        > Fogging makes sense, although I was (incorrectly, I see) under the
                        > impression that since the polymer requires high intensity short UV
                        > (the dangerous kind, no?) that typical ambient light during
                        > handling, ie, removal from the bag to cut to size, wouldn't be a
                        > problem.
                        > Hmm.
                        >
                        > Just a lazy question: where can one find data sheets on the
                        > photopolymers, ie handling policies, exposure, etc?
                        >
                        > p
                        >
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                        >
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                        >
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                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Peter Fraterdeus
                        ... Hi Lisa Yes, safer... Sadly, it s not really an option as these are in drop ceiling installed fixtures. I m trying to come up with some kind of options,
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 2, 2008
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                          On 2 Feb 2008, at 2:36 PM, Lisa Davidson wrote:
                          > Peter,
                          >
                          > As you probably know, fluorescent light bulbs put out a lot of UV,
                          > so much that you can make a perfectly good contact print onto a
                          > platinum emulsion from a close-up bank of fluorescent bulbs in 24
                          > hours. If you change them all to tungsten, it will cost more in
                          > electricity, but the light will be safer.
                          >
                          > Lisa


                          Hi Lisa

                          Yes, safer... Sadly, it's not really an option as these are in 'drop
                          ceiling' installed fixtures. I'm trying to come up with some kind of
                          options, but not much comes to mind...

                          Wish I could just jump all the way to LEDs ;-)

                          Ciao
                          p


                          Peter Fraterdeus
                          http://ExquisiteLetterpress.com
                          http://dubuquebookarts.com
                        • lokkenprint
                          Message 12 of 23 , Feb 3, 2008
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                            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...> wrote: > > On 2 Feb 2008, at 2:36 PM, Lisa Davidson wrote: > > Peter, > > > > As you probably know, fluorescent light bulbs put out a lot of UV, > > so much that you can make a perfectly good contact print onto a > > platinum emulsion from a close-up bank of fluorescent bulbs in 24 > > hours. If you change them all to tungsten, it will cost more in > > electricity, but the light will be safer. > > > > Lisa > > > Hi Lisa > > Yes, safer... Sadly, it's not really an option as these are in 'drop > ceiling' installed fixtures. I'm trying to come up with some kind of > options, but not much comes to mind... > > Wish I could just jump all the way to LEDs ;-) > > Ciao > p > > > Peter Fraterdeus > http://ExquisiteLetterpress.com > http://dubuquebookarts.com > In my platemaking area, I have amber tubes that cover my flourescent bulbs. They block the UV spectrum. They should still be available through Xpedx or Valley Litho. I would not recommend these tubes in a press area as they would affect color perception. Sumner
                          • Russ Wiecking - Wood and Metal Craft
                            It might be useful to keep in mind that the amount of light on the plate is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the source. This benefits
                            Message 13 of 23 , Feb 4, 2008
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                              It might be useful to keep in mind that the amount of light on the
                              plate is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the
                              source. This benefits in that doubling the distance from plate to light
                              source decreases the light to 1/4 of the original, quadrupling the
                              distance decreases it to 1/16 of the original, and so on. What might
                              currently be a 24 hour exposure time, would become a 96 hour exposure
                              time if the distance is doubled. You may only need bulb covers in the
                              immediate vicinity so that the remaining bulbs are an acceptable
                              distance. Maybe there could be a horizontal shade just below a few
                              lights that you could pull when you handle film. Or re-wire to switch
                              them off...It would be good to know the distance and number of bulbs
                              referenced in Lisa's note so you can get a feel for how likely it is
                              that your lights are really an issue.

                              Russ


                              On Feb 3, 2008, at 9:42 AM, lokkenprint wrote:

                              > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...>
                              > wrote: > > On 2 Feb 2008, at 2:36 PM, Lisa Davidson
                              > wrote: > > Peter, > > > > As you probably
                              > know, fluorescent light bulbs put out a lot of UV, > > so
                              > much that you can make a perfectly good contact print onto
                              > a > > platinum emulsion from a close-up bank of fluorescent
                              > bulbs in 24 > > hours. If you change them all to tungsten, it
                              > will cost more in > > electricity, but the light will be
                              > safer. > > > > Lisa > >
                              > > Hi Lisa > > Yes, safer... Sadly, it's
                              > not really an option as these are in 'drop > ceiling'
                              > installed fixtures. I'm trying to come up with some kind of
                              > > options, but not much comes to mind... >
                              > > Wish I could just jump all the way to LEDs ;-) >
                              > > Ciao > p > > > Peter
                              > Fraterdeus > http://ExquisiteLetterpress.com >
                              > http://dubuquebookarts.com > In my
                              > platemaking area, I have amber tubes that cover my
                              > flourescent bulbs. They block the UV spectrum. They should
                              > still be available through Xpedx or Valley Litho. I would not
                              > recommend these tubes in a press area as they would affect
                              > color perception. Sumner
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Peter Fraterdeus
                              Hi Russ The room is about 15x35 with an eight foot drop-ceiling in which are 16 four-tube fixtures, each lamp being, what, 25W so 100W in each fixture? pretty
                              Message 14 of 23 , Feb 4, 2008
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                                Hi Russ

                                The room is about 15x35 with an eight foot drop-ceiling in which are 16 four-tube fixtures, each lamp being, what, 25W so 100W in each fixture?
                                pretty much anywhere in the room will be within 10 feet line-of-sight from a bulb.
                                Your suggestion confirms what I was thinking which is to put the filters on the fixtures in the immediate vicinity of the platemaker, and where I'm cutting the material.

                                Regards
                                P


                                At 8:53 AM -0800 4 02 08, Russ Wiecking - Wood and Metal Craft wrote:
                                >.... You may only need bulb covers in the
                                >immediate vicinity so that the remaining bulbs are an acceptable
                                >distance. Maybe there could be a horizontal shade just below a few
                                >lights that you could pull when you handle film. Or re-wire to switch
                                >them off...It would be good to know the distance and number of bulbs
                                >referenced in Lisa's note so you can get a feel for how likely it is
                                >that your lights are really an issue.
                                >
                                >Russ

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                              • John G. Henry
                                I d have to think that there is not enough density in the negatives you are using. There should be no way that exposure occurs in the non- image areas of the
                                Message 15 of 23 , Feb 5, 2008
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                                  I'd have to think that there is not enough density in the negatives
                                  you are using. There should be no way that exposure occurs in the non-
                                  image areas of the plate (evidenced by the reprodcution of the vaccum
                                  channels, and long wash-out times). The image of the vacuum channels
                                  is most likely produced by reflection of the channels into the plate
                                  from the back. You will probably notice that the milled channels are
                                  shiny metal while the bed is more matte or subdued. I have not seen
                                  this happen in my own plates, but is simply conjecture on my part.

                                  If you hold the negative up to a bright light source (bare bulb), and
                                  pass something behind the film, can you detect the object moving and
                                  see an outline of it in the dark negative areas? If so, you probably
                                  do not have high enough density in the film. Check some other
                                  negatives which have worked well for you and see if there appears to
                                  be a difference in density.

                                  Density in negatives can vary a bit, but the whole process depends on
                                  the contrast between the dark and clear areas on the film. Another
                                  potential problem can be that there is some denisty in the clear
                                  areas which can cause your exposures to increase, which increases the
                                  likelihood that variance in black density can be a problem.

                                  John Henry
                                  Cedar Creek Press
                                • Peter Fraterdeus
                                  Hi John Thanks for the thoughts. I m investigating a number of concerns with this issue. I do think the negs are a little thin, but they are from a loca offset
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Feb 5, 2008
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                                    Hi John

                                    Thanks for the thoughts.
                                    I'm investigating a number of concerns with this issue.
                                    I do think the negs are a little thin, but they are from a loca offset printer who uses the same machine for his negatives. So, not likely to change, anyway.
                                    However, I've had perfect results with the same negatives, so I don't think that's the problem

                                    The vacuum grid is the weirdest thing, since the "exposure" passes right through both clear and black areas on the negative. It's as if it's exposed from underneath. Yet, the channels themselves are black, not metallic...

                                    Anyway, it does seem the most likely culprit is fogging, which I put down to the excessively bright florescent lighting in the shop. I'm looking into options to manage that a bit...

                                    Best
                                    Peter


                                    >I'd have to think that there is not enough density in the negatives
                                    >you are using. There should be no way that exposure occurs in the non-
                                    >image areas of the plate (evidenced by the reprodcution of the vaccum
                                    >channels, and long wash-out times). The image of the vacuum channels
                                    >is most likely produced by reflection of the channels into the plate
                                    >from the back. You will probably notice that the milled channels are
                                    >shiny metal while the bed is more matte or subdued. I have not seen
                                    >this happen in my own plates, but is simply conjecture on my part.
                                    >
                                    >If you hold the negative up to a bright light source (bare bulb), and
                                    >pass something behind the film, can you detect the object moving and
                                    >see an outline of it in the dark negative areas? If so, you probably
                                    >do not have high enough density in the film. Check some other
                                    >negatives which have worked well for you and see if there appears to
                                    >be a difference in density.
                                    >
                                    >Density in negatives can vary a bit, but the whole process depends on
                                    >the contrast between the dark and clear areas on the film. Another
                                    >potential problem can be that there is some denisty in the clear
                                    >areas which can cause your exposures to increase, which increases the
                                    >likelihood that variance in black density can be a problem.
                                    >
                                    >John Henry
                                    >Cedar Creek Press
                                    >
                                    >


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                                  • kringds
                                    Hi Gerald, I was browsing the archives on dampening paper and came across your post below in which you seem suprised at the dampening of Lettra. Could you tell
                                    Message 17 of 23 , May 8, 2008
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                                      Hi Gerald,

                                      I was browsing the archives on dampening paper and came across your post below in
                                      which you seem suprised at the dampening of Lettra. Could you tell me why you were
                                      supprised?

                                      I am getting ready to print a job on 32# lettra and am debating if I should dampen the
                                      paper. I will be printing on polymer plates with primarily line art with black ink.

                                      I have dampened heavier weight paper before with good results but I am wondering if it
                                      makes sense for a lighter weight paper. I assume it does. Could you or anyone with
                                      experience let me know their opinion on this?

                                      As always, thanks for the help and advice.

                                      bryan kring



                                      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Probably. I still have demon catchers hanging from the ceiling, though
                                      > I have taken down all the tribute images of Moloch.
                                      >
                                      > Dampened Lettra!!! Interesting.
                                      >
                                      > Gerald
                                      > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > > Yes. As noted I've had plenty of good luck before Mercury retrograde
                                      > started ;-)
                                      > > These little 'antelope' greeting cards were done with the 'old'
                                      > yellow pp... ( dampened Lettra on the V219)
                                      > >
                                      > http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com/cards/exquisitegreetingcards/archive/samples/
                                      unique-invitation-designs-by-kf/P1020933.JPG
                                      > >
                                      > > Maybe it's the wrong Moon sign for platemaking?
                                      > >
                                      > > Ciao
                                      > > p
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Gerald Lange
                                      Hi Bryan My thinking is that commercial grade papers tend not to respond well to dampening. Primarily because of dominant grain direction and external sizing.
                                      Message 18 of 23 , May 9, 2008
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                                        Hi Bryan

                                        My thinking is that commercial grade papers tend not to respond well to
                                        dampening. Primarily because of dominant grain direction and external
                                        sizing.

                                        I think the only commercial grade that I dampen is Curtis Flannel but my
                                        suspicion, is that it might actually have been a mouldmade, coming from
                                        the Scottish mills that Curtis owned. We had it tested once and the
                                        report came back that it consisted of tobacco leaves. I believe it was
                                        engine sized. Great printing paper no longer with us.

                                        One of my students had some double ply Lettra last semester. A very
                                        thick sheet that she was attempting to print on the Vandercook. Not only
                                        did the layers split apart but the entire back ply was warped throughout
                                        the heap. Might have been a bad lot or badly stored. Not a big fan.

                                        I don't know that you need to dampen on thinner stock. Most of the text
                                        weight mouldmades print well without dampening, though they do respond
                                        well when dampened. I guess I'd suggest dampening only when you really
                                        need to do it.

                                        An aside, but it does relate to the old thread you encountered. I
                                        believe some was asking about the bulging between letters that they were
                                        experiencing when printing on Cranes Lettra with the "deep relief"
                                        plate. I occurred to me the other day that the problem arises from
                                        relief depth. Subtract the relief thickness of a plate from the plate
                                        thickness and you get its relief depth. A Toyobo 95 mm K series plate
                                        has a 65 mm relief thickness. A Toyobo 1.52 mm K series plate has a 1.22
                                        mm relief thickness. Thus, surprise, surprise, they both have a relief
                                        depth of .30 mm. While the 152 is deeper (thicker) from surface to
                                        floor, material in close proximity at the surface (small text,
                                        letterform counters, etc) however, is limited to the relief depth.
                                        That's just the way the formation process works. Any other ratio in
                                        regard to relief depth would make the plate unstable. Thus you will get
                                        the bulging effect when you over impress as you are extending beyond the
                                        capability of the plate. The paper has to do something under the forced
                                        pressure so it bulges out where it can or even cracks. This would also
                                        account for the loss of isolated dots, fine lines, etc, on these plates
                                        under severe impression as they simply have no support.

                                        Gerald
                                        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                                        kringds wrote:
                                        > Hi Gerald,
                                        >
                                        > I was browsing the archives on dampening paper and came across your post below in
                                        > which you seem suprised at the dampening of Lettra. Could you tell me why you were
                                        > supprised?
                                        >
                                        > I am getting ready to print a job on 32# lettra and am debating if I should dampen the
                                        > paper. I will be printing on polymer plates with primarily line art with black ink.
                                        >
                                        > I have dampened heavier weight paper before with good results but I am wondering if it
                                        > makes sense for a lighter weight paper. I assume it does. Could you or anyone with
                                        > experience let me know their opinion on this?
                                        >
                                        > As always, thanks for the help and advice.
                                        >
                                        > bryan kring
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >> Probably. I still have demon catchers hanging from the ceiling, though
                                        >> I have taken down all the tribute images of Moloch.
                                        >>
                                        >> Dampened Lettra!!! Interesting.
                                        >>
                                        >> Gerald
                                        >> http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>> Yes. As noted I've had plenty of good luck before Mercury retrograde
                                        >>>
                                        >> started ;-)
                                        >>
                                        >>> These little 'antelope' greeting cards were done with the 'old'
                                        >>>
                                        >> yellow pp... ( dampened Lettra on the V219)
                                        >>
                                        >> http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com/cards/exquisitegreetingcards/archive/samples/
                                        >>
                                        > unique-invitation-designs-by-kf/P1020933.JPG
                                        >
                                        >>> Maybe it's the wrong Moon sign for platemaking?
                                        >>>
                                        >>> Ciao
                                        >>> p
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >
                                      • Peter Fraterdeus
                                        Bryan, Gerald, Dampening worked well on the 300gsm Lettra Assuming one is doing single color work, variation in grain doesn t really come into it. Also, even
                                        Message 19 of 23 , May 9, 2008
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                                          Bryan, Gerald,

                                          Dampening worked well on the 300gsm Lettra
                                          Assuming one is doing single color work, variation in grain doesn't
                                          really come into it.
                                          Also, even with multiple colors, keeping the stock lightly wrapped
                                          between impressions will minimize dimensional variation.

                                          Double ply, 600gsm, I can imagine may be a problem on the cylinder,
                                          yes...

                                          As far as the other concern that Gerald alludes to, the plate in
                                          question was neither of the Toyobos, but a leftover that was acquired
                                          previously. I've had none of these problems with the Toyobo 152. One
                                          thing is that I've found that keeping the washout to the absolute
                                          minimum is critical, and often pull the plate while there are still
                                          small amounts of material adhering to the backing. (about 4.5 minutes)
                                          With this, I get lovely shoulders on even isolated thin rules and
                                          dots...

                                          My concern had nothing to do with "bulging" between the letters, but
                                          the fact that there was so little definition between the letters, so
                                          that the whole line of type appeared to be surrounded by a slight
                                          depression caused by very shallow shoulders. With the Toyobo (either
                                          95 or 152) I've not had this problem. While the impression was not
                                          wimpy, neither was it excessive. There is never embossing on the verso.

                                          Cheers
                                          P


                                          On 8 May 2008, at 6:43 PM, kringds wrote:
                                          > Hi Gerald,
                                          >
                                          > I was browsing the archives on dampening paper and came across your
                                          > post below in
                                          > which you seem suprised at the dampening of Lettra. Could you tell
                                          > me why you were
                                          > supprised?
                                          >
                                          > I am getting ready to print a job on 32# lettra and am debating if I
                                          > should dampen the
                                          > paper. I will be printing on polymer plates with primarily line art
                                          > with black ink.
                                          >
                                          > I have dampened heavier weight paper before with good results but I
                                          > am wondering if it
                                          > makes sense for a lighter weight paper. I assume it does. Could you
                                          > or anyone with
                                          > experience let me know their opinion on this?
                                          >
                                          > As always, thanks for the help and advice.
                                          >
                                          > bryan kring

                                          Peter Fraterdeus
                                          Exquisite Letterpress
                                          http://slowprint.com
                                        • Gerald Lange
                                          Peter Don t know that the other concern was in reference to you, but you might even want to back down to 4 minutes on washout for the Toyobo 152s. It ll leave
                                          Message 20 of 23 , May 9, 2008
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                                            Peter

                                            Don't know that the other concern was in reference to you, but you
                                            might even want to back down to 4 minutes on washout for the Toyobo
                                            152s. It 'll leave a bit of residue and not look as nice as one might
                                            hope, but it will definitely prevent undercutting and ensure support.
                                            These are steel-backs. Don't know about the polyester-backed 152s.

                                            The Toybobo 95s are a dream plate. Perfectly clean at 3.5 minute
                                            washout, no residue, no undercutting, steel- or polyester-backed.

                                            Gerald
                                            http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                                            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Bryan, Gerald,
                                            >
                                            > Dampening worked well on the 300gsm Lettra
                                            > Assuming one is doing single color work, variation in grain doesn't
                                            > really come into it.
                                            > Also, even with multiple colors, keeping the stock lightly wrapped
                                            > between impressions will minimize dimensional variation.
                                            >
                                            > Double ply, 600gsm, I can imagine may be a problem on the cylinder,
                                            > yes...
                                            >
                                            > As far as the other concern that Gerald alludes to, the plate in
                                            > question was neither of the Toyobos, but a leftover that was acquired
                                            > previously. I've had none of these problems with the Toyobo 152. One
                                            > thing is that I've found that keeping the washout to the absolute
                                            > minimum is critical, and often pull the plate while there are still
                                            > small amounts of material adhering to the backing. (about 4.5 minutes)
                                            > With this, I get lovely shoulders on even isolated thin rules and
                                            > dots...
                                            >
                                            > My concern had nothing to do with "bulging" between the letters, but
                                            > the fact that there was so little definition between the letters, so
                                            > that the whole line of type appeared to be surrounded by a slight
                                            > depression caused by very shallow shoulders. With the Toyobo (either
                                            > 95 or 152) I've not had this problem. While the impression was not
                                            > wimpy, neither was it excessive. There is never embossing on the verso.
                                            >
                                            > Cheers
                                            > P
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > On 8 May 2008, at 6:43 PM, kringds wrote:
                                            > > Hi Gerald,
                                            > >
                                            > > I was browsing the archives on dampening paper and came across your
                                            > > post below in
                                            > > which you seem suprised at the dampening of Lettra. Could you tell
                                            > > me why you were
                                            > > supprised?
                                            > >
                                            > > I am getting ready to print a job on 32# lettra and am debating if I
                                            > > should dampen the
                                            > > paper. I will be printing on polymer plates with primarily line art
                                            > > with black ink.
                                            > >
                                            > > I have dampened heavier weight paper before with good results but I
                                            > > am wondering if it
                                            > > makes sense for a lighter weight paper. I assume it does. Could you
                                            > > or anyone with
                                            > > experience let me know their opinion on this?
                                            > >
                                            > > As always, thanks for the help and advice.
                                            > >
                                            > > bryan kring
                                            >
                                            > Peter Fraterdeus
                                            > Exquisite Letterpress
                                            > http://slowprint.com
                                            >
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