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Re: attaching treadle for Old Style C&P, 8 x 12

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  • a8nt2b33
    Hello my name is Tim,I hope I can help.I have a 12x18 old style C&P and from your picture it look s like the same treadle.I do not think it will fit the
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 4, 2008
      Hello my name is Tim,I hope I can help.I have a 12x18 old style C&P and
      from your picture it look's like the same treadle.I do not think it
      will fit the 8x12.If I remember correctly I had to drive the shaft out
      with a piece of steel bar and sledge hammer.I do not think mine had
      thread's and nut's.I will double check and maybe try to snap some
      photo's.Do not start pounding until you are sure you even have the
      correct treadle and be careful not to mushroom the threads as you will
      never get the nut's back on unles you rethread the shafts.I hope this
      help's.
      Tim
    • rpolinski@nac.net
      I have to agree. It looks like the treadle is too large for an 8x12. Also, all of te 8x12 treadles I ve seen do not have closed journals at the rear but half
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 4, 2008
        I have to agree. It looks like the treadle is too large for an 8x12. Also,
        all of te 8x12 treadles I've seen do not have closed journals at the rear
        but half journals that cup the shaft like a U from underneath and the
        sides of the journal (the U) extend above the shaft where a bolt goes
        through to keep the treade on the shaft.

        The only way to attach this tredle is for a shaft to go through the closed
        journals on the back of the treadle. Check the measurement from the
        outside of the two journals on the treadle against the dimension between
        the inside sides of the press. It may be too wide to even fit between the
        sides. Also check the diameter of the holes in the journals against the
        shafts on the press to see if they're different.

        The shaft on the press where you have removed the nuts, unless I'm very
        mistaken, was milled down from a larger diameter shaft and the large
        inside collars are actually part of the shaft, not seperate pieces. Their
        purpose is to keep the two sides of the press at the correct distance
        apart. The only way to remove that shaft and the others like it is to take
        the two sides of the press apart. In other words, you cannot drive them
        out and any attempt to do so will break something.

        Rich


        --
        Richard Polinski
        Front Room Press
        Milford, NJ
        http://frontroompress.com



        > Hello my name is Tim,I hope I can help.I have a 12x18 old style C&P and
        > from your picture it look's like the same treadle.I do not think it
        > will fit the 8x12.If I remember correctly I had to drive the shaft out
        > with a piece of steel bar and sledge hammer.I do not think mine had
        > thread's and nut's.I will double check and maybe try to snap some
        > photo's.Do not start pounding until you are sure you even have the
        > correct treadle and be careful not to mushroom the threads as you will
        > never get the nut's back on unles you rethread the shafts.I hope this
        > help's.
        > Tim
        >
        >
      • autumnmichellefoote
        The treadle does fit within the width of the press, I too was a little worried at first but as you can all see I now have greater worries. The people who made
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 4, 2008
          The treadle does fit within the width of the press, I too was a little worried at first but as
          you can all see I now have greater worries. The people who made the treadle did charge
          me for a treadle to fit an 8x12 but whose to say I got the right one. I think you just
          confirmed my fear of taking the press apart. So, much for the treadle!
          I thought attaching a treadle would be easy! HA!
          Oh, by the way Rich I did see your pictures for attaching the motor they were very nice,
          thank you for sharing!
          A Foote
          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, rpolinski@... wrote:
          >
          > I have to agree. It looks like the treadle is too large for an 8x12. Also,
          > all of te 8x12 treadles I've seen do not have closed journals at the rear
          > but half journals that cup the shaft like a U from underneath and the
          > sides of the journal (the U) extend above the shaft where a bolt goes
          > through to keep the treade on the shaft.
          >
          > The only way to attach this tredle is for a shaft to go through the closed
          > journals on the back of the treadle. Check the measurement from the
          > outside of the two journals on the treadle against the dimension between
          > the inside sides of the press. It may be too wide to even fit between the
          > sides. Also check the diameter of the holes in the journals against the
          > shafts on the press to see if they're different.
          >
          > The shaft on the press where you have removed the nuts, unless I'm very
          > mistaken, was milled down from a larger diameter shaft and the large
          > inside collars are actually part of the shaft, not seperate pieces. Their
          > purpose is to keep the two sides of the press at the correct distance
          > apart. The only way to remove that shaft and the others like it is to take
          > the two sides of the press apart. In other words, you cannot drive them
          > out and any attempt to do so will break something.
          >
          > Rich
          >
          >
          > --
          > Richard Polinski
          > Front Room Press
          > Milford, NJ
          > http://frontroompress.com
          >
          >
          >
          > > Hello my name is Tim,I hope I can help.I have a 12x18 old style C&P and
          > > from your picture it look's like the same treadle.I do not think it
          > > will fit the 8x12.If I remember correctly I had to drive the shaft out
          > > with a piece of steel bar and sledge hammer.I do not think mine had
          > > thread's and nut's.I will double check and maybe try to snap some
          > > photo's.Do not start pounding until you are sure you even have the
          > > correct treadle and be careful not to mushroom the threads as you will
          > > never get the nut's back on unles you rethread the shafts.I hope this
          > > help's.
          > > Tim
          > >
          > >
          >
        • rpolinski@nac.net
          Yes, and even if you did take the press completely apart the collars on the shaft would prevent the treadle from going on. I ve been looking at a number of
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 4, 2008
            Yes, and even if you did take the press completely apart the collars on
            the shaft would prevent the treadle from going on. I've been looking at a
            number of photos and drawings and it seems clear that the treadle mounts
            to the lower shaft. Check the measurement on the treadle as before and
            then measure between the two collars on the shaft. If it doesn't fit in
            between the collars then that would pretty much confirm it is the wrong
            treadle. From the your photo it just looks too large proportionately to
            the size of the press.

            On the other hand, I zoomed the photo and see that it's from Hern Iron
            Works. I checked their website and they mention that for a C&P 8x12 OS a
            "hinge pin" is needed that they can supply if necessary. Next to your
            treadle is a shaft and I'm assuming this is the "hinge pin". I doubt this
            was originally needed on a C&P press, at least older ones. I know my press
            that was built in 1893 and does not have holes for this shaft in the frame
            and neither does yours. But later model 8x12 OS presses did have some
            small variations or "improvements" that C&P made as the years went by.
            Perhaps the addition of a treadle shaft was one of them and perhaps the
            treadle that Hern used as a pattern to make their's was one of these.

            If that's the case this may be the correct treadle. Slightly above that
            lower shaft on your press are two areas on the inside of the side frames
            that are thicker and round in shape. As a means of attaching the treadle
            it looks like it would be possible to bore a hole at this point on both
            side frames the same diameter as the "hinge pin" and so mount the treadle
            on that shaft. You would have to take care to make sure the holes in each
            frame were alligned with each other and that there was enough clearance
            between the journals on the treadle and the lower frame shaft once the
            treadle was mounted.

            Anyway, that's the way things look to me.

            Rich



            > The treadle does fit within the width of the press, I too was a little
            > worried at first but as
            > you can all see I now have greater worries. The people who made the
            > treadle did charge
            > me for a treadle to fit an 8x12 but whose to say I got the right one. I
            > think you just
            > confirmed my fear of taking the press apart. So, much for the treadle!
            > I thought attaching a treadle would be easy! HA!
            > Oh, by the way Rich I did see your pictures for attaching the motor they
            > were very nice,
            > thank you for sharing!
            > A Foote
            > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, rpolinski@... wrote:
            >>
            >> I have to agree. It looks like the treadle is too large for an 8x12.
            >> Also,
            >> all of te 8x12 treadles I've seen do not have closed journals at the
            >> rear
            >> but half journals that cup the shaft like a U from underneath and the
            >> sides of the journal (the U) extend above the shaft where a bolt goes
            >> through to keep the treade on the shaft.
            >>
            >> The only way to attach this tredle is for a shaft to go through the
            >> closed
            >> journals on the back of the treadle. Check the measurement from the
            >> outside of the two journals on the treadle against the dimension between
            >> the inside sides of the press. It may be too wide to even fit between
            >> the
            >> sides. Also check the diameter of the holes in the journals against the
            >> shafts on the press to see if they're different.
            >>
            >> The shaft on the press where you have removed the nuts, unless I'm very
            >> mistaken, was milled down from a larger diameter shaft and the large
            >> inside collars are actually part of the shaft, not seperate pieces.
            >> Their
            >> purpose is to keep the two sides of the press at the correct distance
            >> apart. The only way to remove that shaft and the others like it is to
            >> take
            >> the two sides of the press apart. In other words, you cannot drive them
            >> out and any attempt to do so will break something.
            >>
            >> Rich
            >>
            >>
            >> --
            >> Richard Polinski
            >> Front Room Press
            >> Milford, NJ
            >> http://frontroompress.com
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> > Hello my name is Tim,I hope I can help.I have a 12x18 old style C&P
            >> and
            >> > from your picture it look's like the same treadle.I do not think it
            >> > will fit the 8x12.If I remember correctly I had to drive the shaft out
            >> > with a piece of steel bar and sledge hammer.I do not think mine had
            >> > thread's and nut's.I will double check and maybe try to snap some
            >> > photo's.Do not start pounding until you are sure you even have the
            >> > correct treadle and be careful not to mushroom the threads as you will
            >> > never get the nut's back on unles you rethread the shafts.I hope this
            >> > help's.
            >> > Tim
            >> >
            >> >
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Kevin
            I believe you ve got the correct treadle, I think that shaft on your press needs to be removed. I have an C&P 8x12 OS with a Hern treadle. My press didn t have
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 4, 2008
              I believe you've got the correct treadle, I think that shaft on your
              press needs to be removed. I have an C&P 8x12 OS with a Hern treadle.
              My press didn't have any sort of rod running through those lower
              holes when I acquired it, the hinge pin fits perfectly in there and I
              don't have any concerns about my press falling apart with nothing but
              that hinge pin in there.

              Is the threaded portion of that rod the same diameter as the hinge
              pin? I'd say cut the rod out of there and slide in the hinge pin if
              it is.

              I posted some photos here:
              http://jazyrain.com/Letpress/treadle/photos.html

              Hope that helps. Kevin.
            • rpolinski@nac.net
              Kevin, what year was your press built? The later OS presses had a cast iron brace that attached just above the bottom shaft in the back and went up towards the
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 5, 2008
                Kevin, what year was your press built? The later OS presses had a cast
                iron brace that attached just above the bottom shaft in the back and went
                up towards the front of the press and attached at a similar point at the
                front of the two side frames. Your press has this as can be seen from the
                photos you posted, bolted to either side just above where the treadle
                shaft goes through. This might confirm the suspicion that her treadle is
                the right size but made for models later than hers which was built in
                1892. That additional frame would provide the support that would be
                lacking in a press without it and with the lower shaft with the collars
                removed. It would not surprise me to learn that earlier manufactured
                presses had a different means of attaching the treadle to the collared
                shaft. Hern obviously used an original treadle as a pattern but it may
                have been one from a later model OS press.

                If she removed the shaft with the collars and put just the pin in place it
                would weaken the frame by allowing the two side frames to flex at that
                lower end due to the play required to allow the treadle to oscilate on the
                shaft. In other words, the two side frames at that point would not be
                fixed rigidly together. Your press doesn't have that problem because that
                additional cast iron frame provides the necessary stability to the frame
                while allowing the treadle play on the shaft to prevent it from binding in
                operation.

                If it were me I wouldn't cut out any original parts.

                Rich



                > I believe you've got the correct treadle, I think that shaft on your
                > press needs to be removed. I have an C&P 8x12 OS with a Hern treadle.
                > My press didn't have any sort of rod running through those lower
                > holes when I acquired it, the hinge pin fits perfectly in there and I
                > don't have any concerns about my press falling apart with nothing but
                > that hinge pin in there.
                >
                > Is the threaded portion of that rod the same diameter as the hinge
                > pin? I'd say cut the rod out of there and slide in the hinge pin if
                > it is.
                >
                > I posted some photos here:
                > http://jazyrain.com/Letpress/treadle/photos.html
                >
                > Hope that helps. Kevin.
                >
                >
                >
              • Kevin
                I better lay off the late night posting. I assumed that the shaft on my press had been removed before I got it, I didn t notice the difference in the frames in
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 5, 2008
                  I better lay off the late night posting. I assumed that the shaft on
                  my press had been removed before I got it, I didn't notice the
                  difference in the frames in the photos. Sorry for the bad advice,
                  thanks for the correction Rich.

                  The serial# for my press is B321, I was told that put its build date
                  around 1905. There must have been some changes made to the press
                  between those years.

                  Kevin.
                • rpolinski@nac.net
                  Actually your post was really helpful. I m doing mostly detective work with this so seeing your photos was very informative. The C&P serial number list does
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 5, 2008
                    Actually your post was really helpful. I'm doing mostly detective work
                    with this so seeing your photos was very informative. The C&P serial
                    number list does have the date of your press as 1905 or 1906 and that's
                    when the letter prefix started showing up in the serial number. So that
                    may be further evidence that this was a transition point for modifications
                    to the press. Of course, the NS presses with their more dramatic changes
                    came out in 1912 and intrestingly also started with a B prefix on the
                    serial number.

                    If someone has a C&P catalog or a printer's supply catalog from the 1890's
                    that advertised the press it might tell us a lot.

                    Rich



                    > I better lay off the late night posting. I assumed that the shaft on
                    > my press had been removed before I got it, I didn't notice the
                    > difference in the frames in the photos. Sorry for the bad advice,
                    > thanks for the correction Rich.
                    >
                    > The serial# for my press is B321, I was told that put its build date
                    > around 1905. There must have been some changes made to the press
                    > between those years.
                    >
                    > Kevin.
                    >
                  • autumnmichellefoote
                    HI Rich- thank you for all of the useful information. No the treadle does not fit with in the width of the collars, just within the width if the press. I
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 5, 2008
                      HI Rich- thank you for all of the useful information. No the treadle does not fit with in the
                      width of the collars, just within the width if the press. I think it is great to see everyone's
                      photos and see the differences in the years. I am so disheartened at the whole process. I
                      just want to print. I guess I am learning a lot with all the stuff in between. For a wile I
                      thought I was a complete and total moron! But all my assumptions have been correct and
                      Kevin I really appreciate your post because I was considering such a thing, but again
                      cutting original parts seemed like a bad idea too. I think that it is time to go on back to
                      the motor. Anyone want to by a treadle? ha ha ha

                      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, rpolinski@... wrote:
                      >
                      > Yes, and even if you did take the press completely apart the collars on
                      > the shaft would prevent the treadle from going on. I've been looking at a
                      > number of photos and drawings and it seems clear that the treadle mounts
                      > to the lower shaft. Check the measurement on the treadle as before and
                      > then measure between the two collars on the shaft. If it doesn't fit in
                      > between the collars then that would pretty much confirm it is the wrong
                      > treadle. From the your photo it just looks too large proportionately to
                      > the size of the press.
                      >
                      > On the other hand, I zoomed the photo and see that it's from Hern Iron
                      > Works. I checked their website and they mention that for a C&P 8x12 OS a
                      > "hinge pin" is needed that they can supply if necessary. Next to your
                      > treadle is a shaft and I'm assuming this is the "hinge pin". I doubt this
                      > was originally needed on a C&P press, at least older ones. I know my press
                      > that was built in 1893 and does not have holes for this shaft in the frame
                      > and neither does yours. But later model 8x12 OS presses did have some
                      > small variations or "improvements" that C&P made as the years went by.
                      > Perhaps the addition of a treadle shaft was one of them and perhaps the
                      > treadle that Hern used as a pattern to make their's was one of these.
                      >
                      > If that's the case this may be the correct treadle. Slightly above that
                      > lower shaft on your press are two areas on the inside of the side frames
                      > that are thicker and round in shape. As a means of attaching the treadle
                      > it looks like it would be possible to bore a hole at this point on both
                      > side frames the same diameter as the "hinge pin" and so mount the treadle
                      > on that shaft. You would have to take care to make sure the holes in each
                      > frame were alligned with each other and that there was enough clearance
                      > between the journals on the treadle and the lower frame shaft once the
                      > treadle was mounted.
                      >
                      > Anyway, that's the way things look to me.
                      >
                      > Rich
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > > The treadle does fit within the width of the press, I too was a little
                      > > worried at first but as
                      > > you can all see I now have greater worries. The people who made the
                      > > treadle did charge
                      > > me for a treadle to fit an 8x12 but whose to say I got the right one. I
                      > > think you just
                      > > confirmed my fear of taking the press apart. So, much for the treadle!
                      > > I thought attaching a treadle would be easy! HA!
                      > > Oh, by the way Rich I did see your pictures for attaching the motor they
                      > > were very nice,
                      > > thank you for sharing!
                      > > A Foote
                      > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, rpolinski@ wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >> I have to agree. It looks like the treadle is too large for an 8x12.
                      > >> Also,
                      > >> all of te 8x12 treadles I've seen do not have closed journals at the
                      > >> rear
                      > >> but half journals that cup the shaft like a U from underneath and the
                      > >> sides of the journal (the U) extend above the shaft where a bolt goes
                      > >> through to keep the treade on the shaft.
                      > >>
                      > >> The only way to attach this tredle is for a shaft to go through the
                      > >> closed
                      > >> journals on the back of the treadle. Check the measurement from the
                      > >> outside of the two journals on the treadle against the dimension between
                      > >> the inside sides of the press. It may be too wide to even fit between
                      > >> the
                      > >> sides. Also check the diameter of the holes in the journals against the
                      > >> shafts on the press to see if they're different.
                      > >>
                      > >> The shaft on the press where you have removed the nuts, unless I'm very
                      > >> mistaken, was milled down from a larger diameter shaft and the large
                      > >> inside collars are actually part of the shaft, not seperate pieces.
                      > >> Their
                      > >> purpose is to keep the two sides of the press at the correct distance
                      > >> apart. The only way to remove that shaft and the others like it is to
                      > >> take
                      > >> the two sides of the press apart. In other words, you cannot drive them
                      > >> out and any attempt to do so will break something.
                      > >>
                      > >> Rich
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> --
                      > >> Richard Polinski
                      > >> Front Room Press
                      > >> Milford, NJ
                      > >> http://frontroompress.com
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> > Hello my name is Tim,I hope I can help.I have a 12x18 old style C&P
                      > >> and
                      > >> > from your picture it look's like the same treadle.I do not think it
                      > >> > will fit the 8x12.If I remember correctly I had to drive the shaft out
                      > >> > with a piece of steel bar and sledge hammer.I do not think mine had
                      > >> > thread's and nut's.I will double check and maybe try to snap some
                      > >> > photo's.Do not start pounding until you are sure you even have the
                      > >> > correct treadle and be careful not to mushroom the threads as you will
                      > >> > never get the nut's back on unles you rethread the shafts.I hope this
                      > >> > help's.
                      > >> > Tim
                      > >> >
                      > >> >
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Peter Fraterdeus
                      Hi Autumn Just thought I d weigh in here with a note on my own jury-rigged treadle solution, which is a two-foot length of 2x6, a big gate-hinge, a 3/8 in.
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 5, 2008
                        Hi Autumn
                        Just thought I'd weigh in here with a note on my own jury-rigged treadle solution, which is a two-foot length of 2x6, a big gate-hinge, a 3/8 in. turn-buckle and a fence-post clamp (which goes around where the treadle hook would, attached with a bolt to the top of the turn-buckle)

                        My press (and Old Style 10x15) sits on a plywood palette, and the gate hinge is lag-bolted to the plywood and the 2x6. I have a 3/8in stainless steel hook fitted to the 2x6 plank below the drive-shaft, and the turn-buckle hooks onto that and reaches up to the shaft, where, as I mentioned, I have attached a fence-post clamp around the offset, held with a bolt to the other end of the turn-buckle.

                        I will post photos when I get back to the press, but don't give up, there's plenty of options for a treadle.

                        This setup is not going to last fifty-years, but it's easy to replace the parts, even if it does sound like the old gate swingin' in the wind when I'm printing ;-)

                        Here's a very rough pencil sketch, until I can get photos...

                        http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=2170476586&size=o

                        Please excuse the clumsy drawing, my architect dad would be very disappointed if he sees it ;-)
                        The hole through the 2x6 will end up closer to the far end of the plank than I've shown here.

                        Cheers!

                        Peter


                        At 7:42 PM +0000 5 01 08, autumnmichellefoote wrote:
                        >HI Rich- thank you for all of the useful information. No the treadle does not fit with in the
                        >width of the collars, just within the width if the press. I think it is great to see everyone's
                        >photos and see the differences in the years. I am so disheartened at the whole process. I
                        >just want to print. I guess I am learning a lot with all the stuff in between. For a wile I
                        >thought I was a complete and total moron! But all my assumptions have been correct and
                        >Kevin I really appreciate your post because I was considering such a thing, but again
                        >cutting original parts seemed like a bad idea too. I think that it is time to go on back to
                        >the motor. Anyone want to by a treadle? ha ha ha

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