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Re: attaching treadle for Old Style C&P, 8 x 12

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  • autumnmichellefoote
    Hi Again! So I have loaded my photos to http://homepage.mac.com/autumnmichellefoote/PhotoAlbum13.html if any wouldn t mind taking a look. I have unscrewed
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 4, 2008
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      Hi Again! So I have loaded my photos to http://homepage.mac.com/autumnmichellefoote/PhotoAlbum13.html
      if any wouldn't mind taking a look. I have unscrewed the nuts from the bar I believe to be
      the attachment point. I can't seem to remove the bar. It seems to be one solid piece to serve
      the purpose of keeping the press together. I could be totally wrong. The only thing that I
      can think of is that on the interior of the (what I believe to be the) bed shaft are larger pieces
      that cold possibly unscrew. I can not tell if they are all of the same solid piece. I appreciate
      all of your comments and thoughts, again they are very helpful! Thanks!
    • parallel_imp
      ... http://homepage.mac.com/autumnmichellefoote/PhotoAlbum13.html ... Is that really a C&P? What size? I am not a treadler, but I thought that the treadle
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 4, 2008
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        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "autumnmichellefoote"
        <autumnmichellefoote@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Again! So I have loaded my photos to
        http://homepage.mac.com/autumnmichellefoote/PhotoAlbum13.html
        > if any wouldn't mind taking a look.

        Is that really a C&P? What size?
        I am not a treadler, but I thought that the treadle mounted to the
        shaft that the bed pivots on, which on a 8x12 (or larger) C&P is very
        low on the press, just a couple inches off the floor, max. That shaft
        is much higher on your press.
        --Eric Holub, SF
      • autumnmichellefoote
        Eric- It is an 8 x 12 Old Style - according to the records I found she was made in 1892 - so she 126 years old! I think on the new style it does mount to the
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 4, 2008
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          Eric- It is an 8 x 12 Old Style - according to the records I found she was made in 1892 -
          so she 126 years old! I think on the new style it does mount to the area where the bed
          pivots from. The place where my bed pivots from is actually about maybe 8 inches from
          the floor. If you look at the manual list http://www.boxcarpress.com/flywheel/manuals/CP_PartsList.pdf it shows the new style
          one and you can see the differences. thanks for taking a look.
          A Foote
          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "parallel_imp" <Megalonyx@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "autumnmichellefoote"
          > <autumnmichellefoote@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Again! So I have loaded my photos to
          > http://homepage.mac.com/autumnmichellefoote/PhotoAlbum13.html
          > > if any wouldn't mind taking a look.
          >
          > Is that really a C&P? What size?
          > I am not a treadler, but I thought that the treadle mounted to the
          > shaft that the bed pivots on, which on a 8x12 (or larger) C&P is very
          > low on the press, just a couple inches off the floor, max. That shaft
          > is much higher on your press.
          > --Eric Holub, SF
          >
        • a8nt2b33
          Hello my name is Tim,I hope I can help.I have a 12x18 old style C&P and from your picture it look s like the same treadle.I do not think it will fit the
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 4, 2008
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            Hello my name is Tim,I hope I can help.I have a 12x18 old style C&P and
            from your picture it look's like the same treadle.I do not think it
            will fit the 8x12.If I remember correctly I had to drive the shaft out
            with a piece of steel bar and sledge hammer.I do not think mine had
            thread's and nut's.I will double check and maybe try to snap some
            photo's.Do not start pounding until you are sure you even have the
            correct treadle and be careful not to mushroom the threads as you will
            never get the nut's back on unles you rethread the shafts.I hope this
            help's.
            Tim
          • rpolinski@nac.net
            I have to agree. It looks like the treadle is too large for an 8x12. Also, all of te 8x12 treadles I ve seen do not have closed journals at the rear but half
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 4, 2008
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              I have to agree. It looks like the treadle is too large for an 8x12. Also,
              all of te 8x12 treadles I've seen do not have closed journals at the rear
              but half journals that cup the shaft like a U from underneath and the
              sides of the journal (the U) extend above the shaft where a bolt goes
              through to keep the treade on the shaft.

              The only way to attach this tredle is for a shaft to go through the closed
              journals on the back of the treadle. Check the measurement from the
              outside of the two journals on the treadle against the dimension between
              the inside sides of the press. It may be too wide to even fit between the
              sides. Also check the diameter of the holes in the journals against the
              shafts on the press to see if they're different.

              The shaft on the press where you have removed the nuts, unless I'm very
              mistaken, was milled down from a larger diameter shaft and the large
              inside collars are actually part of the shaft, not seperate pieces. Their
              purpose is to keep the two sides of the press at the correct distance
              apart. The only way to remove that shaft and the others like it is to take
              the two sides of the press apart. In other words, you cannot drive them
              out and any attempt to do so will break something.

              Rich


              --
              Richard Polinski
              Front Room Press
              Milford, NJ
              http://frontroompress.com



              > Hello my name is Tim,I hope I can help.I have a 12x18 old style C&P and
              > from your picture it look's like the same treadle.I do not think it
              > will fit the 8x12.If I remember correctly I had to drive the shaft out
              > with a piece of steel bar and sledge hammer.I do not think mine had
              > thread's and nut's.I will double check and maybe try to snap some
              > photo's.Do not start pounding until you are sure you even have the
              > correct treadle and be careful not to mushroom the threads as you will
              > never get the nut's back on unles you rethread the shafts.I hope this
              > help's.
              > Tim
              >
              >
            • autumnmichellefoote
              The treadle does fit within the width of the press, I too was a little worried at first but as you can all see I now have greater worries. The people who made
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 4, 2008
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                The treadle does fit within the width of the press, I too was a little worried at first but as
                you can all see I now have greater worries. The people who made the treadle did charge
                me for a treadle to fit an 8x12 but whose to say I got the right one. I think you just
                confirmed my fear of taking the press apart. So, much for the treadle!
                I thought attaching a treadle would be easy! HA!
                Oh, by the way Rich I did see your pictures for attaching the motor they were very nice,
                thank you for sharing!
                A Foote
                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, rpolinski@... wrote:
                >
                > I have to agree. It looks like the treadle is too large for an 8x12. Also,
                > all of te 8x12 treadles I've seen do not have closed journals at the rear
                > but half journals that cup the shaft like a U from underneath and the
                > sides of the journal (the U) extend above the shaft where a bolt goes
                > through to keep the treade on the shaft.
                >
                > The only way to attach this tredle is for a shaft to go through the closed
                > journals on the back of the treadle. Check the measurement from the
                > outside of the two journals on the treadle against the dimension between
                > the inside sides of the press. It may be too wide to even fit between the
                > sides. Also check the diameter of the holes in the journals against the
                > shafts on the press to see if they're different.
                >
                > The shaft on the press where you have removed the nuts, unless I'm very
                > mistaken, was milled down from a larger diameter shaft and the large
                > inside collars are actually part of the shaft, not seperate pieces. Their
                > purpose is to keep the two sides of the press at the correct distance
                > apart. The only way to remove that shaft and the others like it is to take
                > the two sides of the press apart. In other words, you cannot drive them
                > out and any attempt to do so will break something.
                >
                > Rich
                >
                >
                > --
                > Richard Polinski
                > Front Room Press
                > Milford, NJ
                > http://frontroompress.com
                >
                >
                >
                > > Hello my name is Tim,I hope I can help.I have a 12x18 old style C&P and
                > > from your picture it look's like the same treadle.I do not think it
                > > will fit the 8x12.If I remember correctly I had to drive the shaft out
                > > with a piece of steel bar and sledge hammer.I do not think mine had
                > > thread's and nut's.I will double check and maybe try to snap some
                > > photo's.Do not start pounding until you are sure you even have the
                > > correct treadle and be careful not to mushroom the threads as you will
                > > never get the nut's back on unles you rethread the shafts.I hope this
                > > help's.
                > > Tim
                > >
                > >
                >
              • rpolinski@nac.net
                Yes, and even if you did take the press completely apart the collars on the shaft would prevent the treadle from going on. I ve been looking at a number of
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 4, 2008
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                  Yes, and even if you did take the press completely apart the collars on
                  the shaft would prevent the treadle from going on. I've been looking at a
                  number of photos and drawings and it seems clear that the treadle mounts
                  to the lower shaft. Check the measurement on the treadle as before and
                  then measure between the two collars on the shaft. If it doesn't fit in
                  between the collars then that would pretty much confirm it is the wrong
                  treadle. From the your photo it just looks too large proportionately to
                  the size of the press.

                  On the other hand, I zoomed the photo and see that it's from Hern Iron
                  Works. I checked their website and they mention that for a C&P 8x12 OS a
                  "hinge pin" is needed that they can supply if necessary. Next to your
                  treadle is a shaft and I'm assuming this is the "hinge pin". I doubt this
                  was originally needed on a C&P press, at least older ones. I know my press
                  that was built in 1893 and does not have holes for this shaft in the frame
                  and neither does yours. But later model 8x12 OS presses did have some
                  small variations or "improvements" that C&P made as the years went by.
                  Perhaps the addition of a treadle shaft was one of them and perhaps the
                  treadle that Hern used as a pattern to make their's was one of these.

                  If that's the case this may be the correct treadle. Slightly above that
                  lower shaft on your press are two areas on the inside of the side frames
                  that are thicker and round in shape. As a means of attaching the treadle
                  it looks like it would be possible to bore a hole at this point on both
                  side frames the same diameter as the "hinge pin" and so mount the treadle
                  on that shaft. You would have to take care to make sure the holes in each
                  frame were alligned with each other and that there was enough clearance
                  between the journals on the treadle and the lower frame shaft once the
                  treadle was mounted.

                  Anyway, that's the way things look to me.

                  Rich



                  > The treadle does fit within the width of the press, I too was a little
                  > worried at first but as
                  > you can all see I now have greater worries. The people who made the
                  > treadle did charge
                  > me for a treadle to fit an 8x12 but whose to say I got the right one. I
                  > think you just
                  > confirmed my fear of taking the press apart. So, much for the treadle!
                  > I thought attaching a treadle would be easy! HA!
                  > Oh, by the way Rich I did see your pictures for attaching the motor they
                  > were very nice,
                  > thank you for sharing!
                  > A Foote
                  > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, rpolinski@... wrote:
                  >>
                  >> I have to agree. It looks like the treadle is too large for an 8x12.
                  >> Also,
                  >> all of te 8x12 treadles I've seen do not have closed journals at the
                  >> rear
                  >> but half journals that cup the shaft like a U from underneath and the
                  >> sides of the journal (the U) extend above the shaft where a bolt goes
                  >> through to keep the treade on the shaft.
                  >>
                  >> The only way to attach this tredle is for a shaft to go through the
                  >> closed
                  >> journals on the back of the treadle. Check the measurement from the
                  >> outside of the two journals on the treadle against the dimension between
                  >> the inside sides of the press. It may be too wide to even fit between
                  >> the
                  >> sides. Also check the diameter of the holes in the journals against the
                  >> shafts on the press to see if they're different.
                  >>
                  >> The shaft on the press where you have removed the nuts, unless I'm very
                  >> mistaken, was milled down from a larger diameter shaft and the large
                  >> inside collars are actually part of the shaft, not seperate pieces.
                  >> Their
                  >> purpose is to keep the two sides of the press at the correct distance
                  >> apart. The only way to remove that shaft and the others like it is to
                  >> take
                  >> the two sides of the press apart. In other words, you cannot drive them
                  >> out and any attempt to do so will break something.
                  >>
                  >> Rich
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> --
                  >> Richard Polinski
                  >> Front Room Press
                  >> Milford, NJ
                  >> http://frontroompress.com
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> > Hello my name is Tim,I hope I can help.I have a 12x18 old style C&P
                  >> and
                  >> > from your picture it look's like the same treadle.I do not think it
                  >> > will fit the 8x12.If I remember correctly I had to drive the shaft out
                  >> > with a piece of steel bar and sledge hammer.I do not think mine had
                  >> > thread's and nut's.I will double check and maybe try to snap some
                  >> > photo's.Do not start pounding until you are sure you even have the
                  >> > correct treadle and be careful not to mushroom the threads as you will
                  >> > never get the nut's back on unles you rethread the shafts.I hope this
                  >> > help's.
                  >> > Tim
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Kevin
                  I believe you ve got the correct treadle, I think that shaft on your press needs to be removed. I have an C&P 8x12 OS with a Hern treadle. My press didn t have
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 4, 2008
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                    I believe you've got the correct treadle, I think that shaft on your
                    press needs to be removed. I have an C&P 8x12 OS with a Hern treadle.
                    My press didn't have any sort of rod running through those lower
                    holes when I acquired it, the hinge pin fits perfectly in there and I
                    don't have any concerns about my press falling apart with nothing but
                    that hinge pin in there.

                    Is the threaded portion of that rod the same diameter as the hinge
                    pin? I'd say cut the rod out of there and slide in the hinge pin if
                    it is.

                    I posted some photos here:
                    http://jazyrain.com/Letpress/treadle/photos.html

                    Hope that helps. Kevin.
                  • rpolinski@nac.net
                    Kevin, what year was your press built? The later OS presses had a cast iron brace that attached just above the bottom shaft in the back and went up towards the
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 5, 2008
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                      Kevin, what year was your press built? The later OS presses had a cast
                      iron brace that attached just above the bottom shaft in the back and went
                      up towards the front of the press and attached at a similar point at the
                      front of the two side frames. Your press has this as can be seen from the
                      photos you posted, bolted to either side just above where the treadle
                      shaft goes through. This might confirm the suspicion that her treadle is
                      the right size but made for models later than hers which was built in
                      1892. That additional frame would provide the support that would be
                      lacking in a press without it and with the lower shaft with the collars
                      removed. It would not surprise me to learn that earlier manufactured
                      presses had a different means of attaching the treadle to the collared
                      shaft. Hern obviously used an original treadle as a pattern but it may
                      have been one from a later model OS press.

                      If she removed the shaft with the collars and put just the pin in place it
                      would weaken the frame by allowing the two side frames to flex at that
                      lower end due to the play required to allow the treadle to oscilate on the
                      shaft. In other words, the two side frames at that point would not be
                      fixed rigidly together. Your press doesn't have that problem because that
                      additional cast iron frame provides the necessary stability to the frame
                      while allowing the treadle play on the shaft to prevent it from binding in
                      operation.

                      If it were me I wouldn't cut out any original parts.

                      Rich



                      > I believe you've got the correct treadle, I think that shaft on your
                      > press needs to be removed. I have an C&P 8x12 OS with a Hern treadle.
                      > My press didn't have any sort of rod running through those lower
                      > holes when I acquired it, the hinge pin fits perfectly in there and I
                      > don't have any concerns about my press falling apart with nothing but
                      > that hinge pin in there.
                      >
                      > Is the threaded portion of that rod the same diameter as the hinge
                      > pin? I'd say cut the rod out of there and slide in the hinge pin if
                      > it is.
                      >
                      > I posted some photos here:
                      > http://jazyrain.com/Letpress/treadle/photos.html
                      >
                      > Hope that helps. Kevin.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Kevin
                      I better lay off the late night posting. I assumed that the shaft on my press had been removed before I got it, I didn t notice the difference in the frames in
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 5, 2008
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                        I better lay off the late night posting. I assumed that the shaft on
                        my press had been removed before I got it, I didn't notice the
                        difference in the frames in the photos. Sorry for the bad advice,
                        thanks for the correction Rich.

                        The serial# for my press is B321, I was told that put its build date
                        around 1905. There must have been some changes made to the press
                        between those years.

                        Kevin.
                      • rpolinski@nac.net
                        Actually your post was really helpful. I m doing mostly detective work with this so seeing your photos was very informative. The C&P serial number list does
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 5, 2008
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                          Actually your post was really helpful. I'm doing mostly detective work
                          with this so seeing your photos was very informative. The C&P serial
                          number list does have the date of your press as 1905 or 1906 and that's
                          when the letter prefix started showing up in the serial number. So that
                          may be further evidence that this was a transition point for modifications
                          to the press. Of course, the NS presses with their more dramatic changes
                          came out in 1912 and intrestingly also started with a B prefix on the
                          serial number.

                          If someone has a C&P catalog or a printer's supply catalog from the 1890's
                          that advertised the press it might tell us a lot.

                          Rich



                          > I better lay off the late night posting. I assumed that the shaft on
                          > my press had been removed before I got it, I didn't notice the
                          > difference in the frames in the photos. Sorry for the bad advice,
                          > thanks for the correction Rich.
                          >
                          > The serial# for my press is B321, I was told that put its build date
                          > around 1905. There must have been some changes made to the press
                          > between those years.
                          >
                          > Kevin.
                          >
                        • autumnmichellefoote
                          HI Rich- thank you for all of the useful information. No the treadle does not fit with in the width of the collars, just within the width if the press. I
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 5, 2008
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                            HI Rich- thank you for all of the useful information. No the treadle does not fit with in the
                            width of the collars, just within the width if the press. I think it is great to see everyone's
                            photos and see the differences in the years. I am so disheartened at the whole process. I
                            just want to print. I guess I am learning a lot with all the stuff in between. For a wile I
                            thought I was a complete and total moron! But all my assumptions have been correct and
                            Kevin I really appreciate your post because I was considering such a thing, but again
                            cutting original parts seemed like a bad idea too. I think that it is time to go on back to
                            the motor. Anyone want to by a treadle? ha ha ha

                            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, rpolinski@... wrote:
                            >
                            > Yes, and even if you did take the press completely apart the collars on
                            > the shaft would prevent the treadle from going on. I've been looking at a
                            > number of photos and drawings and it seems clear that the treadle mounts
                            > to the lower shaft. Check the measurement on the treadle as before and
                            > then measure between the two collars on the shaft. If it doesn't fit in
                            > between the collars then that would pretty much confirm it is the wrong
                            > treadle. From the your photo it just looks too large proportionately to
                            > the size of the press.
                            >
                            > On the other hand, I zoomed the photo and see that it's from Hern Iron
                            > Works. I checked their website and they mention that for a C&P 8x12 OS a
                            > "hinge pin" is needed that they can supply if necessary. Next to your
                            > treadle is a shaft and I'm assuming this is the "hinge pin". I doubt this
                            > was originally needed on a C&P press, at least older ones. I know my press
                            > that was built in 1893 and does not have holes for this shaft in the frame
                            > and neither does yours. But later model 8x12 OS presses did have some
                            > small variations or "improvements" that C&P made as the years went by.
                            > Perhaps the addition of a treadle shaft was one of them and perhaps the
                            > treadle that Hern used as a pattern to make their's was one of these.
                            >
                            > If that's the case this may be the correct treadle. Slightly above that
                            > lower shaft on your press are two areas on the inside of the side frames
                            > that are thicker and round in shape. As a means of attaching the treadle
                            > it looks like it would be possible to bore a hole at this point on both
                            > side frames the same diameter as the "hinge pin" and so mount the treadle
                            > on that shaft. You would have to take care to make sure the holes in each
                            > frame were alligned with each other and that there was enough clearance
                            > between the journals on the treadle and the lower frame shaft once the
                            > treadle was mounted.
                            >
                            > Anyway, that's the way things look to me.
                            >
                            > Rich
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > > The treadle does fit within the width of the press, I too was a little
                            > > worried at first but as
                            > > you can all see I now have greater worries. The people who made the
                            > > treadle did charge
                            > > me for a treadle to fit an 8x12 but whose to say I got the right one. I
                            > > think you just
                            > > confirmed my fear of taking the press apart. So, much for the treadle!
                            > > I thought attaching a treadle would be easy! HA!
                            > > Oh, by the way Rich I did see your pictures for attaching the motor they
                            > > were very nice,
                            > > thank you for sharing!
                            > > A Foote
                            > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, rpolinski@ wrote:
                            > >>
                            > >> I have to agree. It looks like the treadle is too large for an 8x12.
                            > >> Also,
                            > >> all of te 8x12 treadles I've seen do not have closed journals at the
                            > >> rear
                            > >> but half journals that cup the shaft like a U from underneath and the
                            > >> sides of the journal (the U) extend above the shaft where a bolt goes
                            > >> through to keep the treade on the shaft.
                            > >>
                            > >> The only way to attach this tredle is for a shaft to go through the
                            > >> closed
                            > >> journals on the back of the treadle. Check the measurement from the
                            > >> outside of the two journals on the treadle against the dimension between
                            > >> the inside sides of the press. It may be too wide to even fit between
                            > >> the
                            > >> sides. Also check the diameter of the holes in the journals against the
                            > >> shafts on the press to see if they're different.
                            > >>
                            > >> The shaft on the press where you have removed the nuts, unless I'm very
                            > >> mistaken, was milled down from a larger diameter shaft and the large
                            > >> inside collars are actually part of the shaft, not seperate pieces.
                            > >> Their
                            > >> purpose is to keep the two sides of the press at the correct distance
                            > >> apart. The only way to remove that shaft and the others like it is to
                            > >> take
                            > >> the two sides of the press apart. In other words, you cannot drive them
                            > >> out and any attempt to do so will break something.
                            > >>
                            > >> Rich
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> --
                            > >> Richard Polinski
                            > >> Front Room Press
                            > >> Milford, NJ
                            > >> http://frontroompress.com
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> > Hello my name is Tim,I hope I can help.I have a 12x18 old style C&P
                            > >> and
                            > >> > from your picture it look's like the same treadle.I do not think it
                            > >> > will fit the 8x12.If I remember correctly I had to drive the shaft out
                            > >> > with a piece of steel bar and sledge hammer.I do not think mine had
                            > >> > thread's and nut's.I will double check and maybe try to snap some
                            > >> > photo's.Do not start pounding until you are sure you even have the
                            > >> > correct treadle and be careful not to mushroom the threads as you will
                            > >> > never get the nut's back on unles you rethread the shafts.I hope this
                            > >> > help's.
                            > >> > Tim
                            > >> >
                            > >> >
                            > >>
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Peter Fraterdeus
                            Hi Autumn Just thought I d weigh in here with a note on my own jury-rigged treadle solution, which is a two-foot length of 2x6, a big gate-hinge, a 3/8 in.
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 5, 2008
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                              Hi Autumn
                              Just thought I'd weigh in here with a note on my own jury-rigged treadle solution, which is a two-foot length of 2x6, a big gate-hinge, a 3/8 in. turn-buckle and a fence-post clamp (which goes around where the treadle hook would, attached with a bolt to the top of the turn-buckle)

                              My press (and Old Style 10x15) sits on a plywood palette, and the gate hinge is lag-bolted to the plywood and the 2x6. I have a 3/8in stainless steel hook fitted to the 2x6 plank below the drive-shaft, and the turn-buckle hooks onto that and reaches up to the shaft, where, as I mentioned, I have attached a fence-post clamp around the offset, held with a bolt to the other end of the turn-buckle.

                              I will post photos when I get back to the press, but don't give up, there's plenty of options for a treadle.

                              This setup is not going to last fifty-years, but it's easy to replace the parts, even if it does sound like the old gate swingin' in the wind when I'm printing ;-)

                              Here's a very rough pencil sketch, until I can get photos...

                              http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=2170476586&size=o

                              Please excuse the clumsy drawing, my architect dad would be very disappointed if he sees it ;-)
                              The hole through the 2x6 will end up closer to the far end of the plank than I've shown here.

                              Cheers!

                              Peter


                              At 7:42 PM +0000 5 01 08, autumnmichellefoote wrote:
                              >HI Rich- thank you for all of the useful information. No the treadle does not fit with in the
                              >width of the collars, just within the width if the press. I think it is great to see everyone's
                              >photos and see the differences in the years. I am so disheartened at the whole process. I
                              >just want to print. I guess I am learning a lot with all the stuff in between. For a wile I
                              >thought I was a complete and total moron! But all my assumptions have been correct and
                              >Kevin I really appreciate your post because I was considering such a thing, but again
                              >cutting original parts seemed like a bad idea too. I think that it is time to go on back to
                              >the motor. Anyone want to by a treadle? ha ha ha

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