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Re: buying old type

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  • Gerald Lange
    Lisa Likely; an old-timer s type of joke. But lead oxide is no laughing matter. Don t buy used type that has a white fuzzy appearance, and if you have
    Message 1 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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      Lisa

      Likely; an old-timer's type of joke. But lead oxide is no laughing
      matter. Don't buy used type that has a white fuzzy appearance, and if
      you have something like this, get rid of it. Type case as well. Lead
      poisoning is caused by lead oxide. It's the stuff they put in paint.
      Like the toys that are being recalled. Paint manufacturers in the US
      are limited to the amount they can use, something like 5% with certain
      exceptions, such as parking lot paint or for military use. It is
      actually a durable and preservative element in paint and ink.
      Gutenberg used it in his ink formula and kept that secret to his grave
      (discovered only relatively recently through the use of sophisticated
      analysis techniques), and if you have ever you seen as copy of B42,
      the black is still as black as can be imagined.

      Gerald
      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Davidson
      <lisaxdavidson@...> wrote:
      >
      > You're joking, right?
      >
      > On Oct 2, 2007, at 8:35 AM, George Chapman wrote:
      >
      > > And of course as you examine the type with a magnifying glass, be
      > > sure you
      > > are wearing the most sophisticated mask available to avoid
      > > breathing in
      > > those particles of lead oxide.
      > >
      > > --
      > > "I don't send email, I just speak to people . . . and it's amazing
      > > what you
      > > find out when you speak to a lot of people about . . . what's going
      > > on in
      > > anything you do."
      > > Sanford Weill
      > > Former chairman and CEO of Citigroup
      > >
      > > George Chapman
      > > In the heart of the beautiful San Juan Mountains of Colorado at
      > > 9,318 feet.
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Graham and Kathy
      You actually have to ingest the stuff for it to do you harm. So long as you don t breathe it in as dust or gas, or eat it (inadvertently by sucking your loaded
      Message 2 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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        You actually have to ingest the stuff for it to do you harm. So long as you
        don't breathe it in as dust or gas, or eat it (inadvertently by sucking your
        loaded fingers or by chewing type), there's no risk. Same as lead loaded
        paint - it's not made for eating, and if kids didn't eat toys, there'd be no
        problem.

        There's no record of any printer dead from lead, and the problem of lead
        related poisoning was recognized many centuries ago.

        Be as careful and attentive as you would be walking across a road - look,
        think, pay attention. No worries!


        Graham Moss
        Incline Press
        36 Bow Street
        Oldham OL1 1SJ England
        http://www.inclinepress.com




        > <lisaxdavidson@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> You're joking, right?
        >>
        >> On Oct 2, 2007, at 8:35 AM, George Chapman wrote:
        >>
        >>> And of course as you examine the type with a magnifying glass, be
        >>> sure you
        >>> are wearing the most sophisticated mask available to avoid
        >>> breathing in
        >>> those particles of lead oxide.
      • Peter Fraterdeus
        Hmm. Great resource, but if it s a PDF for screen reading, I wonder why is it not horizontal ;-) (I asked the same thing about Galley Gab, and now it is!)
        Message 3 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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          Hmm. Great resource, but if it's a PDF for screen reading, I wonder why is it not horizontal ;-)
          (I asked the same thing about Galley Gab, and now it is!)

          Thanks Mike!

          P

          At 12:44 PM +0100 2 10 07, Mike Jacobs wrote:
          >Try reading the advice given by the BPS on their site.
          >http://www.bpsnet.org.uk/type/type.pdf
          >
          >As you see it is a PDF so you will need a suitable reader.
          >

          --
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          ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com

          -:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*
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          Galena, Illinois Design Philosophy Fonts Lettering Letterpress Wood Type
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        • Gerald Lange
          Sorry for the additional word tracking and what the hell is B42? (without explanation). B42 is the bibliographic notation for the 42-Line Bible, aka the
          Message 4 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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            Sorry for the additional word tracking and "what the hell is
            B42?"(without explanation).

            B42 is the bibliographic notation for the 42-Line Bible, aka the
            Mazarin Bible, or as commonly known (and somewhat of a misnomer) the
            Gutenberg Bible. These very early printed works did not carry titles
            and are known retroactively by bibliographic reference. Most early
            typefaces as well, though the Aldine period, are coded rather than
            named (since they never were named).

            Gerald
            http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
          • Gerald Lange
            Graham The average life of a printer in the very early years of the 20th century was 23 years old. This has to do with industrial conditions. Don t you think
            Message 5 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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              Graham

              The average life of a printer in the very early years of the 20th
              century was 23 years old. This has to do with industrial conditions.
              Don't you think this is food for thought? I actually have a very
              intense collection of books relating to industrial/health practices.
              If I tell you you are full of shit would you be offended?

              Gerald


              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Graham and Kathy
              <kwhalen.incline@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > You actually have to ingest the stuff for it to do you harm. So long
              as you
              > don't breathe it in as dust or gas, or eat it (inadvertently by
              sucking your
              > loaded fingers or by chewing type), there's no risk. Same as lead
              loaded
              > paint - it's not made for eating, and if kids didn't eat toys,
              there'd be no
              > problem.
              >
              > There's no record of any printer dead from lead, and the problem of lead
              > related poisoning was recognized many centuries ago.
              >
              > Be as careful and attentive as you would be walking across a road -
              look,
              > think, pay attention. No worries!
              >
              >
              > Graham Moss
              > Incline Press
              > 36 Bow Street
              > Oldham OL1 1SJ England
              > http://www.inclinepress.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > > <lisaxdavidson@> wrote:
              > >>
              > >> You're joking, right?
              > >>
              > >> On Oct 2, 2007, at 8:35 AM, George Chapman wrote:
              > >>
              > >>> And of course as you examine the type with a magnifying glass, be
              > >>> sure you
              > >>> are wearing the most sophisticated mask available to avoid
              > >>> breathing in
              > >>> those particles of lead oxide.
              >
            • Peter Fraterdeus
              ... The AVERAGE? So for every 40 year old printer, there was one that dies as an infant? Seems like they would have died out by now! And, yes, I would be
              Message 6 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                At 9:45 AM +0000 3 10 07, Gerald Lange wrote:
                >Graham
                >
                >The average life of a printer in the very early years of the 20th
                >century was 23 years old. This has to do with industrial conditions.

                The AVERAGE? So for every 40 year old printer, there was one that dies as an infant?
                Seems like they would have died out by now!

                And, yes, I would be offended if it was me.
                Please cite your sources before slinging shit.
                :-)

                P

                --
                AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@

                ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com
              • Gerald Lange
                Peter I don t sling shit. Gerald ... dies as an infant?
                Message 7 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                  Peter

                  I don't sling shit.

                  Gerald

                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > At 9:45 AM +0000 3 10 07, Gerald Lange wrote:
                  > >Graham
                  > >
                  > >The average life of a printer in the very early years of the 20th
                  > >century was 23 years old. This has to do with industrial conditions.
                  >
                  > The AVERAGE? So for every 40 year old printer, there was one that
                  dies as an infant?
                  > Seems like they would have died out by now!
                  >
                  > And, yes, I would be offended if it was me.
                  > Please cite your sources before slinging shit.
                  > :-)
                  >
                  > P
                  >
                  > --
                  > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                  >
                  > ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com
                  >
                • Graham and Kathy
                  Nothing offends me unless it s meant to, and then I wonder if being offensive was the sole purpose of the response, and if so, that offends me! To your point:
                  Message 8 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                    Nothing offends me unless it's meant to, and then I wonder if being
                    offensive was the sole purpose of the response, and if so, that offends me!

                    To your point:

                    What was the life expectancy of comparable workers in other industries at
                    the same time? How big was the sample and are the samples restricted to
                    location? Is there a comparison between the country printshop and the city
                    printshop? Is there a separation between print factory workers (rather than
                    printers) and print foundry workers? What were the figures for other foundry
                    workers outwith the print industry? How do these figures relate to the
                    introduction of Linotype and Monotype machines into printshops - are there
                    pre and post Lino and Mono figures for comparison?

                    Of course there's more questions; what gets into the body and how it gets
                    there is the issue, along with stopping it from getting there. You know
                    that, so don't try bullshitting me!

                    Looking forward to seeing you next week.


                    Graham Moss
                    Incline Press
                    36 Bow Street
                    Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                    http://www.inclinepress.com




                    On 3/10/07 10:45, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:

                    > Graham
                    >
                    > The average life of a printer in the very early years of the 20th
                    > century was 23 years old. This has to do with industrial conditions.
                    > Don't you think this is food for thought? I actually have a very
                    > intense collection of books relating to industrial/health practices.
                    > If I tell you you are full of shit would you be offended?
                    >
                    > Gerald
                    >
                  • Scott Rubel
                    23 years in the 20th century? If this is true, I ll bet it s true for just about any industrial job during the same period. All factory and industrial
                    Message 9 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                      23 years in the 20th century? If this is true, I'll bet it's true for
                      just about any industrial job during the same period. All factory and
                      industrial processes were fraught with chemicals and accidents that took
                      decades to engineer out, and I don't think you can attribute the short
                      life span to only lead oxide, though I'd be full of shit if I were to
                      minimize the dangers of lead oxide.

                      Anyway, I've lived twice the average lifespan while using some fuzzy
                      type, and I can still remember most of that span.
                      I did get rid of the most disgusting type years ago, and as of about
                      four years ago I've hardly used any handset type at all. Sad, but true.
                      Market forces and all. I'm saving the handset for retirement. Sad but true.

                      --Scott Rubel

                      Gerald Lange wrote:

                      >Graham
                      >
                      >The average life of a printer in the very early years of the 20th
                      >century was 23 years old. This has to do with industrial conditions.
                      >Don't you think this is food for thought? I actually have a very
                      >intense collection of books relating to industrial/health practices.
                      >If I tell you you are full of shit would you be offended?
                      >
                      >Gerald
                      >
                      >
                      >--- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Graham and Kathy
                      ><kwhalen.incline@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >>You actually have to ingest the stuff for it to do you harm. So long
                      >>
                      >>
                      >as you
                      >
                      >
                      >>don't breathe it in as dust or gas, or eat it (inadvertently by
                      >>
                      >>
                      >sucking your
                      >
                      >
                      >>loaded fingers or by chewing type), there's no risk. Same as lead
                      >>
                      >>
                      >loaded
                      >
                      >
                      >>paint - it's not made for eating, and if kids didn't eat toys,
                      >>
                      >>
                      >there'd be no
                      >
                      >
                      >>problem.
                      >>
                      >>There's no record of any printer dead from lead, and the problem of lead
                      >>related poisoning was recognized many centuries ago.
                      >>
                      >>Be as careful and attentive as you would be walking across a road -
                      >>
                      >>
                      >look,
                      >
                      >
                      >>think, pay attention. No worries!
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>Graham Moss
                      >>Incline Press
                      >>36 Bow Street
                      >>Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                      >>http://www.inclinepress.com
                      >>
                      >>


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Gerald Lange
                      Graham There is probably a limit to the length of posts; you re asking for a dissertation here. I can say that the only health practice in place that I ve ever
                      Message 10 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                        Graham

                        There is probably a limit to the length of posts; you're asking for a
                        dissertation here. I can say that the only health practice in place that
                        I've ever read, in regard to this period, was the industry (not
                        governmental) requirement that workers in the metallic bronzing ink
                        industry were required to drink a glass of milk a day. Alas, it served
                        no medical purpose.

                        Your talk subject looks interesting and I look forward to hearing it.
                        The panel that Hrant and I are on looks like the after lunch comic relief!!!

                        Gerald
                        >
                        > What was the life expectancy of comparable workers in other industries at
                        > the same time? How big was the sample and are the samples restricted to
                        > location? Is there a comparison between the country printshop and the city
                        > printshop? Is there a separation between print factory workers (rather than
                        > printers) and print foundry workers? What were the figures for other foundry
                        > workers outwith the print industry? How do these figures relate to the
                        > introduction of Linotype and Monotype machines into printshops - are there
                        > pre and post Lino and Mono figures for comparison?
                        >
                        > Of course there's more questions; what gets into the body and how it gets
                        > there is the issue, along with stopping it from getting there. You know
                        > that, so don't try bullshitting me!
                        >
                        > Looking forward to seeing you next week.
                        >
                        >
                        > Graham Moss
                        > Incline Press
                        > 36 Bow Street
                        > Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                        > http://www.inclinepress.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On 3/10/07 10:45, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >> Graham
                        >>
                        >> The average life of a printer in the very early years of the 20th
                        >> century was 23 years old. This has to do with industrial conditions.
                        >> Don't you think this is food for thought? I actually have a very
                        >> intense collection of books relating to industrial/health practices.
                        >> If I tell you you are full of shit would you be offended?
                        >>
                        >> Gerald
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • David Goodrich
                        Sometimes one encounters a font of rare or historical type which one desires despite the oxidation. The oxide can be removed by soaking the type overnight in a
                        Message 11 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                          Sometimes one encounters a font of rare or historical type which one desires
                          despite the oxidation.
                          The oxide can be removed by soaking the type overnight in a bath of vinegar
                          and water. The type should then be given a protective coating of oil, to be
                          wiped off when it is used. Of course it will never print like new type.


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Steve Robison
                          OK...here s another 2 cents worth about lead oxide...(that s two copper cents, not two lead cents) Although I ll have to scare up the sources, I recall that
                          Message 12 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                            OK...here's another 2 cents worth about lead
                            oxide...(that's two copper cents, not two lead cents)

                            Although I'll have to scare up the sources, I recall
                            that the printing industry has had very stable
                            mortality rates as a whole during it's long history --
                            similar to those of other industrial activities. Hey,
                            even Ben Franklin, one of the most famous printers of
                            our early colonial era, lived well into his 80's --
                            well past the life expectancy of his peers -- and
                            probably helped to improve those early industry
                            statistics immensely?! :-)

                            However, after the era of the hand press, and the
                            slower early presses, the industry began to change.
                            The introduction of high speed presses provided
                            another industry hazard besides lead oxide. The
                            introduction of high speed presses brought about a new
                            health problem that went undetected for years. The
                            presses at high speed began to spin off microscopic
                            particles of ink into the air during long press runs.
                            The particles could not be seen with the naked eye, so
                            went undetected. Those microscopic particles were
                            then inhaled all day by press operators. Think of
                            standing next to web fed newspaper, magazine and book
                            presses spinning all day at high speed. It was the
                            inhalation of these microscopic ink particles that
                            gave press operators a much higher mortality rate than
                            normal due to severe lung exposure from the chemicals
                            in the ink. Like the black lung disease of coal
                            miners, this ink was inhaled and affixed itself inside
                            the lung cavity to do irreparable damage. So in those
                            years, it was not the exposure to lead oxide that was
                            the villin, it was the exposure from the chemicals in
                            the ink particles that reduced life expectancy!

                            On another note, I've had conversations with Lewis
                            Mitchell who has been casting type at M&H Type Foundry
                            in San Francisco contiuously for over 50 years. He is
                            regularly tested for lead levels, just as a
                            precaution, given that he works with lead alloy
                            casters all day, every day for 5 days a week. His
                            blood lead levels have been at or below the average
                            for the rest of the population, and that's with over
                            50 years of intensive work with lead alloy only (he's
                            never been a high speed press operator inhaling ink).

                            Now one might say that he works with new shiny molten
                            type metal, and not the pesky oxidized stuff, and that
                            certainly might be a factor of his good fortune. But
                            remember too that he is also working with lead alloy
                            in all its forms - solid to molten to gaseous. He's
                            moving pigs of it to the melting pots, he's standing
                            over it's molten form and breathing its fumes. He's
                            also surrounded by residual stray spurts of it on the
                            floor and equipment from the casters, and other stray
                            particles. That lead alloy will eventually oxidize
                            unnoticed. And yet while living surrounded with this
                            for his entire working life, he has apparently gone
                            without any adverse affects to him.

                            So I deduce from his experience that Lewis is just
                            smart and careful and prudent about working with the
                            stuff, and knows not to EAT it for lunch-- and that's
                            what it takes to be safe around it!

                            In contrast there is an 18th and 19th century
                            typesetter practice that I've heard about that might
                            have narrowed the gene pool a bit for some, and
                            perhaps shortened the life of a few printers by a year
                            or two. The practice was that of licking some of the
                            the small end pieces of type that would keep falling
                            over at the ends of some lines making it difficult to
                            wrap a form with string. The bit of saliva helped the
                            end type to stick together briefly to a piece of type
                            next to it so that it wouldn't fall over, and thus
                            allowed the type setter to tie up the block of type
                            without further trouble.

                            This practice closely parallels the ingestion of small
                            amounts mercury by early hat makers. They used to lick
                            the needles that passed through the mercury soaked
                            hats in the process of making them... leading to
                            mercury poisoning and the insanity of hat makers and
                            the term "Mad Hatters."

                            This practice also parallels the practices of the
                            early fine classic painters who used pure "white lead"
                            (lead oxide) mixed into their oil paints and licked
                            their brushes as they painted to get them to
                            straighten between brush strokes, or to achieve
                            certain effects. It's said that Gutenberg may have
                            modeled some of his early inks on pigmented oil paints
                            and etching inks used in his day. They all probably
                            contained some amount of lead.

                            But my guess is that this occasional practice of type
                            licking might not have been as dangerous as actually
                            licking moist liquid paint or mercury, or so wide
                            spread a practice as to lower industry averages any
                            more than they were already. Remember that most
                            industrial workers, including printers, were already
                            using what we now know to be really dangerous
                            carcinogenic chemicals like Benzene to clean things.
                            That was standard practice in a lot of industrial
                            industries, and that probably lowered life
                            expectancies a lot more that the careful handling of
                            lead alloy type. I also suspect that the tin involved
                            in the Lead/Antimony/Tin alloy of type metal helps
                            seal the lead somewhat and slows the oxidation
                            process, so that only very old type, or type exposed
                            to salt air or other oxidants is really oxidized
                            enough to pose a substantial risk. It may be that if
                            you lick brand new shiny foundry type that absolutely
                            nothing bad will happen to you at all...but I'm
                            certainly not advocating the practice. Just to be
                            completely safe, I'm going to keep my tongue where it
                            belongs -- in my mouth! The occasional pesky piece of
                            type that occasionally falls at the end of a line
                            during set up is not enough of an incentive for me to
                            risk ingestion of lead oxide!

                            Remember too that up until fairly recently, lead was
                            used in almost all gasoline fuels. The gazillion
                            pounds of lead distributed on our city streets and in
                            the air every day through auto exhaust for the past
                            100 years has probably been a far greater risk
                            exposure of lead to the general population than the
                            amount of lead encountered by carefully handling clean
                            solid type and then washing one's hands. Gasoline
                            residues from the internal combustion engine have also
                            spewed a lot of other dangerous chemicals into our
                            environment as well. I've often thought that this has
                            been a contributor, if not the major contributor, to
                            the rapid rise of cancers and other diseases,
                            including mental illnesses, in the world population
                            today.

                            I also wanted to comment on the care and feeding of
                            type and what to do to keep lead oxide from forming in
                            the first place -- so that no one will have to deal
                            with it later. Think of lead oxide as "type rust"
                            because that's exactly what it is. Rust is the
                            oxidation of iron. If you were going to prevent iron
                            or steel from rusting (oxidizing) you would coat it in
                            something that would keep the oxygen from getting to
                            it, like oil or varathane or paint. Well, type metal
                            can be protected the same way, you just can't put
                            varathane or paint on it because the face of the type
                            has to be clean to use when you print.

                            So after each use, leave a mild oil on the type.
                            Kerosene, when used carefully and properly, is a good
                            choice. The kerosene residue will keep the type from
                            oxidizing.

                            A good practice from the start is to proof a new set
                            of foundry type as soon as you get it, and then clean
                            off the ink from the type with a soft rag soaked with
                            a bit of kerosene. This leaves a thin film of kerosene
                            and a tiny bit of diluted ink on the type face, and
                            this coating protects it from oxidation.

                            I go one step further in processing new foundry type.
                            I immerse the whole font in a tray of kerosene and let
                            it soak for awhile until all the sides and bottom of
                            the type are also fully coated as well. Then I take
                            the font out of this kerosene bath and let it drain
                            and dry for a day or two before distributing. This
                            process will help protect the entire set of new type
                            from the start.

                            Of course, when I go to set the type at a later date,
                            I don't want any residual kerosene on the face of the
                            type when I use it. So after setting the block of
                            type, when it's all locked up and in the chase and
                            just before I print with it, I do one last step. I
                            take a clean soft lint-free rag with some paint
                            thinner (mineral spirits) on it and clean the kerosene
                            off. Then I wipe the top of the type lightly with a
                            soft dry lint-free rag to soak up any remaining paint
                            thinner and allow any remaining thinner to evaporate
                            before I lock the type form in the press.

                            After printing, I take the chase out and clean the ink
                            off the top with an old soft toothbrush soaked in
                            kerosene followed with a rag with a little kerosene on
                            it. At this point, I don't wipe the remaining kerosene
                            off with a dry rag...I leave it wet and let it dry on
                            its own to leave a kerosene residue to protect the
                            face of the type. This has kept my type in excellent
                            condition over the years.

                            Oh, one last thing...The lead in paint is toxic when
                            it oxidizes too. That usually happens with old peeling
                            paint. Lead oxide, I'm told (having never ingested it
                            myself!) is sweet to the taste. That's why it's a
                            danger to young children who are putting everything
                            and anything in their mouths. If they find peeling
                            lead paint chips on the ground that have fallen off a
                            house (usually found on the outside of a house more
                            than the inside, but of course it can be found in both
                            places) then the children eat it--and because it's
                            sweet, they eat more of it. By the way, that's why
                            rats and mice will actually eat oxidized lead
                            type...it's tasty. And some of us, who have gone into
                            some pretty strange places in search of old rare type
                            have come upon this phenomenon more than once! And
                            those old molasses and glycerin rollers were tasty
                            treats for them as well, but that's another story and
                            another thread altogether!

                            OK. I'd better stop now and see what lead induced
                            weirdness I've stirred up for the rest of the list!

                            Best wishes,

                            --Steve

                            Steve Robison
                            Belmont, CA (just south of San Francisco)



                            Steve Robison
                            robisonsteve@...


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                          • Ph. D.
                            ... Actually, lead does not turn to its gaseous state at the temperatures used in casting machines, which is about 700-750 degrees for Thompson casters, lower
                            Message 13 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                              Steve Robison skribis:
                              >
                              > Now one might say that he works with new
                              > shiny molten type metal, and not the pesky
                              > oxidized stuff, and that certainly might be a
                              > factor of his good fortune. But remember too
                              > that he is also working with lead alloy in all its
                              > forms - solid to molten to gaseous. He's moving
                              > pigs of it to the melting pots, he's standing
                              > over it's molten form and breathing its fumes.

                              Actually, lead does not turn to its gaseous state
                              at the temperatures used in casting machines,
                              which is about 700-750 degrees for Thompson
                              casters, lower for Linotype/Ludlow/etc.

                              Any fumes he's breathing are from the gas being
                              burned to heat the pot.

                              --Ph. D.
                            • Halton
                              An additional view . . . Me thinks the word oxide has been mis-applied in much of the back and forth on old hot type metal. My view is that lead oxide is
                              Message 14 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                                An additional view . . . Me thinks the word "oxide"
                                has been mis-applied in much of the back and forth on
                                old hot type metal. My view is that lead oxide is
                                released only when the metal is heated above 1100
                                degrees. Type metal used in lino/intertype & ludlow is
                                reprocessed at no higher than 600 degrees. Monotype at
                                700 degrees. Temperatures exceeding these temps would
                                damage the metal amalgam and ruin them for the
                                intended purpose. The metal used in the composing room
                                is simply not bioavailable since eating it would have
                                a deleterious effect on one's teeth. On matters
                                relating to health and life expectancy of typos . . .
                                smoking and drinking took a greater toll than lead.
                                The grey dust commonly found on old hand type is
                                frequently from dropped cigarette ashes. It was more
                                prevalent in front portion of the typecases. The ash
                                has a very corrosive effect on type. My exposure to
                                handtype began age 11 with a hobby press I got for
                                Christmas. Now after 50 years with lead type my
                                current lead level is 30 micrograms/d -- about same as
                                backgroud level of any person who drove cars with
                                leaded gas. Union shop rules required the venting of
                                gas-fired casting machines to remove "effluvia" from
                                breathing air. The bad rap lead gets is primarily
                                from paint before 1978 which was lead based. The lead
                                in paint was ground like sifted flour and mixed in.
                                The purpose of paint is to protect surfaces from
                                harmful rays of the sun. Lead actually
                                did a good job. The bad story came from old paint in
                                run-down
                                buildings becoming bioavailable to very young children
                                (who put stuff in their months) and they ingested old
                                paint chips/flakes and indeed
                                suffered from lead poisoning as a result. I have never
                                heard of a single printer sickened from lead, but
                                sadly many have died from various smoking related
                                illnesses.
                                Joe halton


                                --- "Ph. D." <phil@...> wrote:

                                > Steve Robison skribis:
                                > >
                                > > Now one might say that he works with new
                                > > shiny molten type metal, and not the pesky
                                > > oxidized stuff, and that certainly might be a
                                > > factor of his good fortune. But remember too
                                > > that he is also working with lead alloy in all its
                                >
                                > > forms - solid to molten to gaseous. He's moving
                                > > pigs of it to the melting pots, he's standing
                                > > over it's molten form and breathing its fumes.
                                >
                                > Actually, lead does not turn to its gaseous state
                                > at the temperatures used in casting machines,
                                > which is about 700-750 degrees for Thompson
                                > casters, lower for Linotype/Ludlow/etc.
                                >
                                > Any fumes he's breathing are from the gas being
                                > burned to heat the pot.
                                >
                                > --Ph. D.
                                >
                                >


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                              • Gerald Lange
                                Joe The white crusty stuff is, in fact, lead oxide, aka, white lead. It s not lead ground down but it is lead corroded, essentially, with acid. There is an
                                Message 15 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                                  Joe

                                  The white crusty stuff is, in fact, lead oxide, aka, white lead. It's
                                  not lead ground down but it is lead corroded, essentially, with acid.
                                  There is an interesting tome on the manufacturing process, The Lead
                                  and Zinc Pigments by Clifford Dyer Holley, 1909. The photos of the
                                  industrial process are a bit scarey in regard to the total lack of
                                  health considerations given to the workers. Interesting is that its
                                  manufacture is recorded as well in Theophrastus' History of Stones
                                  (300 BC). Lead is still allowed in paint but the percentage is
                                  restricted except for applications where its inclusion is necessary
                                  for the durability of the paint (I think I mentioned this previously).

                                  Gerald
                                  http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Halton <haltonprinting@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > An additional view . . . Me thinks the word "oxide"
                                  > has been mis-applied in much of the back and forth on
                                  > old hot type metal. My view is that lead oxide is
                                  > released only when the metal is heated above 1100
                                  > degrees. Type metal used in lino/intertype & ludlow is
                                  > reprocessed at no higher than 600 degrees. Monotype at
                                  > 700 degrees. Temperatures exceeding these temps would
                                  > damage the metal amalgam and ruin them for the
                                  > intended purpose. The metal used in the composing room
                                  > is simply not bioavailable since eating it would have
                                  > a deleterious effect on one's teeth. On matters
                                  > relating to health and life expectancy of typos . . .
                                  > smoking and drinking took a greater toll than lead.
                                  > The grey dust commonly found on old hand type is
                                  > frequently from dropped cigarette ashes. It was more
                                  > prevalent in front portion of the typecases. The ash
                                  > has a very corrosive effect on type. My exposure to
                                  > handtype began age 11 with a hobby press I got for
                                  > Christmas. Now after 50 years with lead type my
                                  > current lead level is 30 micrograms/d -- about same as
                                  > backgroud level of any person who drove cars with
                                  > leaded gas. Union shop rules required the venting of
                                  > gas-fired casting machines to remove "effluvia" from
                                  > breathing air. The bad rap lead gets is primarily
                                  > from paint before 1978 which was lead based. The lead
                                  > in paint was ground like sifted flour and mixed in.
                                  > The purpose of paint is to protect surfaces from
                                  > harmful rays of the sun. Lead actually
                                  > did a good job. The bad story came from old paint in
                                  > run-down
                                  > buildings becoming bioavailable to very young children
                                  > (who put stuff in their months) and they ingested old
                                  > paint chips/flakes and indeed
                                  > suffered from lead poisoning as a result. I have never
                                  > heard of a single printer sickened from lead, but
                                  > sadly many have died from various smoking related
                                  > illnesses.
                                  > Joe halton
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- "Ph. D." <phil@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Steve Robison skribis:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Now one might say that he works with new
                                  > > > shiny molten type metal, and not the pesky
                                  > > > oxidized stuff, and that certainly might be a
                                  > > > factor of his good fortune. But remember too
                                  > > > that he is also working with lead alloy in all its
                                  > >
                                  > > > forms - solid to molten to gaseous. He's moving
                                  > > > pigs of it to the melting pots, he's standing
                                  > > > over it's molten form and breathing its fumes.
                                  > >
                                  > > Actually, lead does not turn to its gaseous state
                                  > > at the temperatures used in casting machines,
                                  > > which is about 700-750 degrees for Thompson
                                  > > casters, lower for Linotype/Ludlow/etc.
                                  > >
                                  > > Any fumes he's breathing are from the gas being
                                  > > burned to heat the pot.
                                  > >
                                  > > --Ph. D.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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