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Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: buying old type

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  • Lisa Davidson
    You re joking, right? ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 23 , Oct 2, 2007
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      You're joking, right?

      On Oct 2, 2007, at 8:35 AM, George Chapman wrote:

      > And of course as you examine the type with a magnifying glass, be
      > sure you
      > are wearing the most sophisticated mask available to avoid
      > breathing in
      > those particles of lead oxide.
      >
      > --
      > "I don't send email, I just speak to people . . . and it's amazing
      > what you
      > find out when you speak to a lot of people about . . . what's going
      > on in
      > anything you do."
      > Sanford Weill
      > Former chairman and CEO of Citigroup
      >
      > George Chapman
      > In the heart of the beautiful San Juan Mountains of Colorado at
      > 9,318 feet.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Gerald Lange
      Lisa Likely; an old-timer s type of joke. But lead oxide is no laughing matter. Don t buy used type that has a white fuzzy appearance, and if you have
      Message 2 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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        Lisa

        Likely; an old-timer's type of joke. But lead oxide is no laughing
        matter. Don't buy used type that has a white fuzzy appearance, and if
        you have something like this, get rid of it. Type case as well. Lead
        poisoning is caused by lead oxide. It's the stuff they put in paint.
        Like the toys that are being recalled. Paint manufacturers in the US
        are limited to the amount they can use, something like 5% with certain
        exceptions, such as parking lot paint or for military use. It is
        actually a durable and preservative element in paint and ink.
        Gutenberg used it in his ink formula and kept that secret to his grave
        (discovered only relatively recently through the use of sophisticated
        analysis techniques), and if you have ever you seen as copy of B42,
        the black is still as black as can be imagined.

        Gerald
        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Davidson
        <lisaxdavidson@...> wrote:
        >
        > You're joking, right?
        >
        > On Oct 2, 2007, at 8:35 AM, George Chapman wrote:
        >
        > > And of course as you examine the type with a magnifying glass, be
        > > sure you
        > > are wearing the most sophisticated mask available to avoid
        > > breathing in
        > > those particles of lead oxide.
        > >
        > > --
        > > "I don't send email, I just speak to people . . . and it's amazing
        > > what you
        > > find out when you speak to a lot of people about . . . what's going
        > > on in
        > > anything you do."
        > > Sanford Weill
        > > Former chairman and CEO of Citigroup
        > >
        > > George Chapman
        > > In the heart of the beautiful San Juan Mountains of Colorado at
        > > 9,318 feet.
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Graham and Kathy
        You actually have to ingest the stuff for it to do you harm. So long as you don t breathe it in as dust or gas, or eat it (inadvertently by sucking your loaded
        Message 3 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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          You actually have to ingest the stuff for it to do you harm. So long as you
          don't breathe it in as dust or gas, or eat it (inadvertently by sucking your
          loaded fingers or by chewing type), there's no risk. Same as lead loaded
          paint - it's not made for eating, and if kids didn't eat toys, there'd be no
          problem.

          There's no record of any printer dead from lead, and the problem of lead
          related poisoning was recognized many centuries ago.

          Be as careful and attentive as you would be walking across a road - look,
          think, pay attention. No worries!


          Graham Moss
          Incline Press
          36 Bow Street
          Oldham OL1 1SJ England
          http://www.inclinepress.com




          > <lisaxdavidson@...> wrote:
          >>
          >> You're joking, right?
          >>
          >> On Oct 2, 2007, at 8:35 AM, George Chapman wrote:
          >>
          >>> And of course as you examine the type with a magnifying glass, be
          >>> sure you
          >>> are wearing the most sophisticated mask available to avoid
          >>> breathing in
          >>> those particles of lead oxide.
        • Peter Fraterdeus
          Hmm. Great resource, but if it s a PDF for screen reading, I wonder why is it not horizontal ;-) (I asked the same thing about Galley Gab, and now it is!)
          Message 4 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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            Hmm. Great resource, but if it's a PDF for screen reading, I wonder why is it not horizontal ;-)
            (I asked the same thing about Galley Gab, and now it is!)

            Thanks Mike!

            P

            At 12:44 PM +0100 2 10 07, Mike Jacobs wrote:
            >Try reading the advice given by the BPS on their site.
            >http://www.bpsnet.org.uk/type/type.pdf
            >
            >As you see it is a PDF so you will need a suitable reader.
            >

            --
            AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
            {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!}

            ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com

            -:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*
            Peter Fraterdeus http://www.alphabets.com : Sign up for "MiceType"!
            Galena, Illinois Design Philosophy Fonts Lettering Letterpress Wood Type
            Dubuque, Iowa http://www.fraterdeus.com
            Photography Irish Fiddle Political Observation
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          • Gerald Lange
            Sorry for the additional word tracking and what the hell is B42? (without explanation). B42 is the bibliographic notation for the 42-Line Bible, aka the
            Message 5 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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              Sorry for the additional word tracking and "what the hell is
              B42?"(without explanation).

              B42 is the bibliographic notation for the 42-Line Bible, aka the
              Mazarin Bible, or as commonly known (and somewhat of a misnomer) the
              Gutenberg Bible. These very early printed works did not carry titles
              and are known retroactively by bibliographic reference. Most early
              typefaces as well, though the Aldine period, are coded rather than
              named (since they never were named).

              Gerald
              http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
            • Gerald Lange
              Graham The average life of a printer in the very early years of the 20th century was 23 years old. This has to do with industrial conditions. Don t you think
              Message 6 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                Graham

                The average life of a printer in the very early years of the 20th
                century was 23 years old. This has to do with industrial conditions.
                Don't you think this is food for thought? I actually have a very
                intense collection of books relating to industrial/health practices.
                If I tell you you are full of shit would you be offended?

                Gerald


                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Graham and Kathy
                <kwhalen.incline@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > You actually have to ingest the stuff for it to do you harm. So long
                as you
                > don't breathe it in as dust or gas, or eat it (inadvertently by
                sucking your
                > loaded fingers or by chewing type), there's no risk. Same as lead
                loaded
                > paint - it's not made for eating, and if kids didn't eat toys,
                there'd be no
                > problem.
                >
                > There's no record of any printer dead from lead, and the problem of lead
                > related poisoning was recognized many centuries ago.
                >
                > Be as careful and attentive as you would be walking across a road -
                look,
                > think, pay attention. No worries!
                >
                >
                > Graham Moss
                > Incline Press
                > 36 Bow Street
                > Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                > http://www.inclinepress.com
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > > <lisaxdavidson@> wrote:
                > >>
                > >> You're joking, right?
                > >>
                > >> On Oct 2, 2007, at 8:35 AM, George Chapman wrote:
                > >>
                > >>> And of course as you examine the type with a magnifying glass, be
                > >>> sure you
                > >>> are wearing the most sophisticated mask available to avoid
                > >>> breathing in
                > >>> those particles of lead oxide.
                >
              • Peter Fraterdeus
                ... The AVERAGE? So for every 40 year old printer, there was one that dies as an infant? Seems like they would have died out by now! And, yes, I would be
                Message 7 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                  At 9:45 AM +0000 3 10 07, Gerald Lange wrote:
                  >Graham
                  >
                  >The average life of a printer in the very early years of the 20th
                  >century was 23 years old. This has to do with industrial conditions.

                  The AVERAGE? So for every 40 year old printer, there was one that dies as an infant?
                  Seems like they would have died out by now!

                  And, yes, I would be offended if it was me.
                  Please cite your sources before slinging shit.
                  :-)

                  P

                  --
                  AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@

                  ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com
                • Gerald Lange
                  Peter I don t sling shit. Gerald ... dies as an infant?
                  Message 8 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                    Peter

                    I don't sling shit.

                    Gerald

                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > At 9:45 AM +0000 3 10 07, Gerald Lange wrote:
                    > >Graham
                    > >
                    > >The average life of a printer in the very early years of the 20th
                    > >century was 23 years old. This has to do with industrial conditions.
                    >
                    > The AVERAGE? So for every 40 year old printer, there was one that
                    dies as an infant?
                    > Seems like they would have died out by now!
                    >
                    > And, yes, I would be offended if it was me.
                    > Please cite your sources before slinging shit.
                    > :-)
                    >
                    > P
                    >
                    > --
                    > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                    >
                    > ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com
                    >
                  • Graham and Kathy
                    Nothing offends me unless it s meant to, and then I wonder if being offensive was the sole purpose of the response, and if so, that offends me! To your point:
                    Message 9 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                      Nothing offends me unless it's meant to, and then I wonder if being
                      offensive was the sole purpose of the response, and if so, that offends me!

                      To your point:

                      What was the life expectancy of comparable workers in other industries at
                      the same time? How big was the sample and are the samples restricted to
                      location? Is there a comparison between the country printshop and the city
                      printshop? Is there a separation between print factory workers (rather than
                      printers) and print foundry workers? What were the figures for other foundry
                      workers outwith the print industry? How do these figures relate to the
                      introduction of Linotype and Monotype machines into printshops - are there
                      pre and post Lino and Mono figures for comparison?

                      Of course there's more questions; what gets into the body and how it gets
                      there is the issue, along with stopping it from getting there. You know
                      that, so don't try bullshitting me!

                      Looking forward to seeing you next week.


                      Graham Moss
                      Incline Press
                      36 Bow Street
                      Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                      http://www.inclinepress.com




                      On 3/10/07 10:45, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:

                      > Graham
                      >
                      > The average life of a printer in the very early years of the 20th
                      > century was 23 years old. This has to do with industrial conditions.
                      > Don't you think this is food for thought? I actually have a very
                      > intense collection of books relating to industrial/health practices.
                      > If I tell you you are full of shit would you be offended?
                      >
                      > Gerald
                      >
                    • Scott Rubel
                      23 years in the 20th century? If this is true, I ll bet it s true for just about any industrial job during the same period. All factory and industrial
                      Message 10 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                        23 years in the 20th century? If this is true, I'll bet it's true for
                        just about any industrial job during the same period. All factory and
                        industrial processes were fraught with chemicals and accidents that took
                        decades to engineer out, and I don't think you can attribute the short
                        life span to only lead oxide, though I'd be full of shit if I were to
                        minimize the dangers of lead oxide.

                        Anyway, I've lived twice the average lifespan while using some fuzzy
                        type, and I can still remember most of that span.
                        I did get rid of the most disgusting type years ago, and as of about
                        four years ago I've hardly used any handset type at all. Sad, but true.
                        Market forces and all. I'm saving the handset for retirement. Sad but true.

                        --Scott Rubel

                        Gerald Lange wrote:

                        >Graham
                        >
                        >The average life of a printer in the very early years of the 20th
                        >century was 23 years old. This has to do with industrial conditions.
                        >Don't you think this is food for thought? I actually have a very
                        >intense collection of books relating to industrial/health practices.
                        >If I tell you you are full of shit would you be offended?
                        >
                        >Gerald
                        >
                        >
                        >--- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Graham and Kathy
                        ><kwhalen.incline@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >>You actually have to ingest the stuff for it to do you harm. So long
                        >>
                        >>
                        >as you
                        >
                        >
                        >>don't breathe it in as dust or gas, or eat it (inadvertently by
                        >>
                        >>
                        >sucking your
                        >
                        >
                        >>loaded fingers or by chewing type), there's no risk. Same as lead
                        >>
                        >>
                        >loaded
                        >
                        >
                        >>paint - it's not made for eating, and if kids didn't eat toys,
                        >>
                        >>
                        >there'd be no
                        >
                        >
                        >>problem.
                        >>
                        >>There's no record of any printer dead from lead, and the problem of lead
                        >>related poisoning was recognized many centuries ago.
                        >>
                        >>Be as careful and attentive as you would be walking across a road -
                        >>
                        >>
                        >look,
                        >
                        >
                        >>think, pay attention. No worries!
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>Graham Moss
                        >>Incline Press
                        >>36 Bow Street
                        >>Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                        >>http://www.inclinepress.com
                        >>
                        >>


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Gerald Lange
                        Graham There is probably a limit to the length of posts; you re asking for a dissertation here. I can say that the only health practice in place that I ve ever
                        Message 11 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                          Graham

                          There is probably a limit to the length of posts; you're asking for a
                          dissertation here. I can say that the only health practice in place that
                          I've ever read, in regard to this period, was the industry (not
                          governmental) requirement that workers in the metallic bronzing ink
                          industry were required to drink a glass of milk a day. Alas, it served
                          no medical purpose.

                          Your talk subject looks interesting and I look forward to hearing it.
                          The panel that Hrant and I are on looks like the after lunch comic relief!!!

                          Gerald
                          >
                          > What was the life expectancy of comparable workers in other industries at
                          > the same time? How big was the sample and are the samples restricted to
                          > location? Is there a comparison between the country printshop and the city
                          > printshop? Is there a separation between print factory workers (rather than
                          > printers) and print foundry workers? What were the figures for other foundry
                          > workers outwith the print industry? How do these figures relate to the
                          > introduction of Linotype and Monotype machines into printshops - are there
                          > pre and post Lino and Mono figures for comparison?
                          >
                          > Of course there's more questions; what gets into the body and how it gets
                          > there is the issue, along with stopping it from getting there. You know
                          > that, so don't try bullshitting me!
                          >
                          > Looking forward to seeing you next week.
                          >
                          >
                          > Graham Moss
                          > Incline Press
                          > 36 Bow Street
                          > Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                          > http://www.inclinepress.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On 3/10/07 10:45, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >> Graham
                          >>
                          >> The average life of a printer in the very early years of the 20th
                          >> century was 23 years old. This has to do with industrial conditions.
                          >> Don't you think this is food for thought? I actually have a very
                          >> intense collection of books relating to industrial/health practices.
                          >> If I tell you you are full of shit would you be offended?
                          >>
                          >> Gerald
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • David Goodrich
                          Sometimes one encounters a font of rare or historical type which one desires despite the oxidation. The oxide can be removed by soaking the type overnight in a
                          Message 12 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                            Sometimes one encounters a font of rare or historical type which one desires
                            despite the oxidation.
                            The oxide can be removed by soaking the type overnight in a bath of vinegar
                            and water. The type should then be given a protective coating of oil, to be
                            wiped off when it is used. Of course it will never print like new type.


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Steve Robison
                            OK...here s another 2 cents worth about lead oxide...(that s two copper cents, not two lead cents) Although I ll have to scare up the sources, I recall that
                            Message 13 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                              OK...here's another 2 cents worth about lead
                              oxide...(that's two copper cents, not two lead cents)

                              Although I'll have to scare up the sources, I recall
                              that the printing industry has had very stable
                              mortality rates as a whole during it's long history --
                              similar to those of other industrial activities. Hey,
                              even Ben Franklin, one of the most famous printers of
                              our early colonial era, lived well into his 80's --
                              well past the life expectancy of his peers -- and
                              probably helped to improve those early industry
                              statistics immensely?! :-)

                              However, after the era of the hand press, and the
                              slower early presses, the industry began to change.
                              The introduction of high speed presses provided
                              another industry hazard besides lead oxide. The
                              introduction of high speed presses brought about a new
                              health problem that went undetected for years. The
                              presses at high speed began to spin off microscopic
                              particles of ink into the air during long press runs.
                              The particles could not be seen with the naked eye, so
                              went undetected. Those microscopic particles were
                              then inhaled all day by press operators. Think of
                              standing next to web fed newspaper, magazine and book
                              presses spinning all day at high speed. It was the
                              inhalation of these microscopic ink particles that
                              gave press operators a much higher mortality rate than
                              normal due to severe lung exposure from the chemicals
                              in the ink. Like the black lung disease of coal
                              miners, this ink was inhaled and affixed itself inside
                              the lung cavity to do irreparable damage. So in those
                              years, it was not the exposure to lead oxide that was
                              the villin, it was the exposure from the chemicals in
                              the ink particles that reduced life expectancy!

                              On another note, I've had conversations with Lewis
                              Mitchell who has been casting type at M&H Type Foundry
                              in San Francisco contiuously for over 50 years. He is
                              regularly tested for lead levels, just as a
                              precaution, given that he works with lead alloy
                              casters all day, every day for 5 days a week. His
                              blood lead levels have been at or below the average
                              for the rest of the population, and that's with over
                              50 years of intensive work with lead alloy only (he's
                              never been a high speed press operator inhaling ink).

                              Now one might say that he works with new shiny molten
                              type metal, and not the pesky oxidized stuff, and that
                              certainly might be a factor of his good fortune. But
                              remember too that he is also working with lead alloy
                              in all its forms - solid to molten to gaseous. He's
                              moving pigs of it to the melting pots, he's standing
                              over it's molten form and breathing its fumes. He's
                              also surrounded by residual stray spurts of it on the
                              floor and equipment from the casters, and other stray
                              particles. That lead alloy will eventually oxidize
                              unnoticed. And yet while living surrounded with this
                              for his entire working life, he has apparently gone
                              without any adverse affects to him.

                              So I deduce from his experience that Lewis is just
                              smart and careful and prudent about working with the
                              stuff, and knows not to EAT it for lunch-- and that's
                              what it takes to be safe around it!

                              In contrast there is an 18th and 19th century
                              typesetter practice that I've heard about that might
                              have narrowed the gene pool a bit for some, and
                              perhaps shortened the life of a few printers by a year
                              or two. The practice was that of licking some of the
                              the small end pieces of type that would keep falling
                              over at the ends of some lines making it difficult to
                              wrap a form with string. The bit of saliva helped the
                              end type to stick together briefly to a piece of type
                              next to it so that it wouldn't fall over, and thus
                              allowed the type setter to tie up the block of type
                              without further trouble.

                              This practice closely parallels the ingestion of small
                              amounts mercury by early hat makers. They used to lick
                              the needles that passed through the mercury soaked
                              hats in the process of making them... leading to
                              mercury poisoning and the insanity of hat makers and
                              the term "Mad Hatters."

                              This practice also parallels the practices of the
                              early fine classic painters who used pure "white lead"
                              (lead oxide) mixed into their oil paints and licked
                              their brushes as they painted to get them to
                              straighten between brush strokes, or to achieve
                              certain effects. It's said that Gutenberg may have
                              modeled some of his early inks on pigmented oil paints
                              and etching inks used in his day. They all probably
                              contained some amount of lead.

                              But my guess is that this occasional practice of type
                              licking might not have been as dangerous as actually
                              licking moist liquid paint or mercury, or so wide
                              spread a practice as to lower industry averages any
                              more than they were already. Remember that most
                              industrial workers, including printers, were already
                              using what we now know to be really dangerous
                              carcinogenic chemicals like Benzene to clean things.
                              That was standard practice in a lot of industrial
                              industries, and that probably lowered life
                              expectancies a lot more that the careful handling of
                              lead alloy type. I also suspect that the tin involved
                              in the Lead/Antimony/Tin alloy of type metal helps
                              seal the lead somewhat and slows the oxidation
                              process, so that only very old type, or type exposed
                              to salt air or other oxidants is really oxidized
                              enough to pose a substantial risk. It may be that if
                              you lick brand new shiny foundry type that absolutely
                              nothing bad will happen to you at all...but I'm
                              certainly not advocating the practice. Just to be
                              completely safe, I'm going to keep my tongue where it
                              belongs -- in my mouth! The occasional pesky piece of
                              type that occasionally falls at the end of a line
                              during set up is not enough of an incentive for me to
                              risk ingestion of lead oxide!

                              Remember too that up until fairly recently, lead was
                              used in almost all gasoline fuels. The gazillion
                              pounds of lead distributed on our city streets and in
                              the air every day through auto exhaust for the past
                              100 years has probably been a far greater risk
                              exposure of lead to the general population than the
                              amount of lead encountered by carefully handling clean
                              solid type and then washing one's hands. Gasoline
                              residues from the internal combustion engine have also
                              spewed a lot of other dangerous chemicals into our
                              environment as well. I've often thought that this has
                              been a contributor, if not the major contributor, to
                              the rapid rise of cancers and other diseases,
                              including mental illnesses, in the world population
                              today.

                              I also wanted to comment on the care and feeding of
                              type and what to do to keep lead oxide from forming in
                              the first place -- so that no one will have to deal
                              with it later. Think of lead oxide as "type rust"
                              because that's exactly what it is. Rust is the
                              oxidation of iron. If you were going to prevent iron
                              or steel from rusting (oxidizing) you would coat it in
                              something that would keep the oxygen from getting to
                              it, like oil or varathane or paint. Well, type metal
                              can be protected the same way, you just can't put
                              varathane or paint on it because the face of the type
                              has to be clean to use when you print.

                              So after each use, leave a mild oil on the type.
                              Kerosene, when used carefully and properly, is a good
                              choice. The kerosene residue will keep the type from
                              oxidizing.

                              A good practice from the start is to proof a new set
                              of foundry type as soon as you get it, and then clean
                              off the ink from the type with a soft rag soaked with
                              a bit of kerosene. This leaves a thin film of kerosene
                              and a tiny bit of diluted ink on the type face, and
                              this coating protects it from oxidation.

                              I go one step further in processing new foundry type.
                              I immerse the whole font in a tray of kerosene and let
                              it soak for awhile until all the sides and bottom of
                              the type are also fully coated as well. Then I take
                              the font out of this kerosene bath and let it drain
                              and dry for a day or two before distributing. This
                              process will help protect the entire set of new type
                              from the start.

                              Of course, when I go to set the type at a later date,
                              I don't want any residual kerosene on the face of the
                              type when I use it. So after setting the block of
                              type, when it's all locked up and in the chase and
                              just before I print with it, I do one last step. I
                              take a clean soft lint-free rag with some paint
                              thinner (mineral spirits) on it and clean the kerosene
                              off. Then I wipe the top of the type lightly with a
                              soft dry lint-free rag to soak up any remaining paint
                              thinner and allow any remaining thinner to evaporate
                              before I lock the type form in the press.

                              After printing, I take the chase out and clean the ink
                              off the top with an old soft toothbrush soaked in
                              kerosene followed with a rag with a little kerosene on
                              it. At this point, I don't wipe the remaining kerosene
                              off with a dry rag...I leave it wet and let it dry on
                              its own to leave a kerosene residue to protect the
                              face of the type. This has kept my type in excellent
                              condition over the years.

                              Oh, one last thing...The lead in paint is toxic when
                              it oxidizes too. That usually happens with old peeling
                              paint. Lead oxide, I'm told (having never ingested it
                              myself!) is sweet to the taste. That's why it's a
                              danger to young children who are putting everything
                              and anything in their mouths. If they find peeling
                              lead paint chips on the ground that have fallen off a
                              house (usually found on the outside of a house more
                              than the inside, but of course it can be found in both
                              places) then the children eat it--and because it's
                              sweet, they eat more of it. By the way, that's why
                              rats and mice will actually eat oxidized lead
                              type...it's tasty. And some of us, who have gone into
                              some pretty strange places in search of old rare type
                              have come upon this phenomenon more than once! And
                              those old molasses and glycerin rollers were tasty
                              treats for them as well, but that's another story and
                              another thread altogether!

                              OK. I'd better stop now and see what lead induced
                              weirdness I've stirred up for the rest of the list!

                              Best wishes,

                              --Steve

                              Steve Robison
                              Belmont, CA (just south of San Francisco)



                              Steve Robison
                              robisonsteve@...


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                            • Ph. D.
                              ... Actually, lead does not turn to its gaseous state at the temperatures used in casting machines, which is about 700-750 degrees for Thompson casters, lower
                              Message 14 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                                Steve Robison skribis:
                                >
                                > Now one might say that he works with new
                                > shiny molten type metal, and not the pesky
                                > oxidized stuff, and that certainly might be a
                                > factor of his good fortune. But remember too
                                > that he is also working with lead alloy in all its
                                > forms - solid to molten to gaseous. He's moving
                                > pigs of it to the melting pots, he's standing
                                > over it's molten form and breathing its fumes.

                                Actually, lead does not turn to its gaseous state
                                at the temperatures used in casting machines,
                                which is about 700-750 degrees for Thompson
                                casters, lower for Linotype/Ludlow/etc.

                                Any fumes he's breathing are from the gas being
                                burned to heat the pot.

                                --Ph. D.
                              • Halton
                                An additional view . . . Me thinks the word oxide has been mis-applied in much of the back and forth on old hot type metal. My view is that lead oxide is
                                Message 15 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                                  An additional view . . . Me thinks the word "oxide"
                                  has been mis-applied in much of the back and forth on
                                  old hot type metal. My view is that lead oxide is
                                  released only when the metal is heated above 1100
                                  degrees. Type metal used in lino/intertype & ludlow is
                                  reprocessed at no higher than 600 degrees. Monotype at
                                  700 degrees. Temperatures exceeding these temps would
                                  damage the metal amalgam and ruin them for the
                                  intended purpose. The metal used in the composing room
                                  is simply not bioavailable since eating it would have
                                  a deleterious effect on one's teeth. On matters
                                  relating to health and life expectancy of typos . . .
                                  smoking and drinking took a greater toll than lead.
                                  The grey dust commonly found on old hand type is
                                  frequently from dropped cigarette ashes. It was more
                                  prevalent in front portion of the typecases. The ash
                                  has a very corrosive effect on type. My exposure to
                                  handtype began age 11 with a hobby press I got for
                                  Christmas. Now after 50 years with lead type my
                                  current lead level is 30 micrograms/d -- about same as
                                  backgroud level of any person who drove cars with
                                  leaded gas. Union shop rules required the venting of
                                  gas-fired casting machines to remove "effluvia" from
                                  breathing air. The bad rap lead gets is primarily
                                  from paint before 1978 which was lead based. The lead
                                  in paint was ground like sifted flour and mixed in.
                                  The purpose of paint is to protect surfaces from
                                  harmful rays of the sun. Lead actually
                                  did a good job. The bad story came from old paint in
                                  run-down
                                  buildings becoming bioavailable to very young children
                                  (who put stuff in their months) and they ingested old
                                  paint chips/flakes and indeed
                                  suffered from lead poisoning as a result. I have never
                                  heard of a single printer sickened from lead, but
                                  sadly many have died from various smoking related
                                  illnesses.
                                  Joe halton


                                  --- "Ph. D." <phil@...> wrote:

                                  > Steve Robison skribis:
                                  > >
                                  > > Now one might say that he works with new
                                  > > shiny molten type metal, and not the pesky
                                  > > oxidized stuff, and that certainly might be a
                                  > > factor of his good fortune. But remember too
                                  > > that he is also working with lead alloy in all its
                                  >
                                  > > forms - solid to molten to gaseous. He's moving
                                  > > pigs of it to the melting pots, he's standing
                                  > > over it's molten form and breathing its fumes.
                                  >
                                  > Actually, lead does not turn to its gaseous state
                                  > at the temperatures used in casting machines,
                                  > which is about 700-750 degrees for Thompson
                                  > casters, lower for Linotype/Ludlow/etc.
                                  >
                                  > Any fumes he's breathing are from the gas being
                                  > burned to heat the pot.
                                  >
                                  > --Ph. D.
                                  >
                                  >


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                                • Gerald Lange
                                  Joe The white crusty stuff is, in fact, lead oxide, aka, white lead. It s not lead ground down but it is lead corroded, essentially, with acid. There is an
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                                    Joe

                                    The white crusty stuff is, in fact, lead oxide, aka, white lead. It's
                                    not lead ground down but it is lead corroded, essentially, with acid.
                                    There is an interesting tome on the manufacturing process, The Lead
                                    and Zinc Pigments by Clifford Dyer Holley, 1909. The photos of the
                                    industrial process are a bit scarey in regard to the total lack of
                                    health considerations given to the workers. Interesting is that its
                                    manufacture is recorded as well in Theophrastus' History of Stones
                                    (300 BC). Lead is still allowed in paint but the percentage is
                                    restricted except for applications where its inclusion is necessary
                                    for the durability of the paint (I think I mentioned this previously).

                                    Gerald
                                    http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Halton <haltonprinting@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > An additional view . . . Me thinks the word "oxide"
                                    > has been mis-applied in much of the back and forth on
                                    > old hot type metal. My view is that lead oxide is
                                    > released only when the metal is heated above 1100
                                    > degrees. Type metal used in lino/intertype & ludlow is
                                    > reprocessed at no higher than 600 degrees. Monotype at
                                    > 700 degrees. Temperatures exceeding these temps would
                                    > damage the metal amalgam and ruin them for the
                                    > intended purpose. The metal used in the composing room
                                    > is simply not bioavailable since eating it would have
                                    > a deleterious effect on one's teeth. On matters
                                    > relating to health and life expectancy of typos . . .
                                    > smoking and drinking took a greater toll than lead.
                                    > The grey dust commonly found on old hand type is
                                    > frequently from dropped cigarette ashes. It was more
                                    > prevalent in front portion of the typecases. The ash
                                    > has a very corrosive effect on type. My exposure to
                                    > handtype began age 11 with a hobby press I got for
                                    > Christmas. Now after 50 years with lead type my
                                    > current lead level is 30 micrograms/d -- about same as
                                    > backgroud level of any person who drove cars with
                                    > leaded gas. Union shop rules required the venting of
                                    > gas-fired casting machines to remove "effluvia" from
                                    > breathing air. The bad rap lead gets is primarily
                                    > from paint before 1978 which was lead based. The lead
                                    > in paint was ground like sifted flour and mixed in.
                                    > The purpose of paint is to protect surfaces from
                                    > harmful rays of the sun. Lead actually
                                    > did a good job. The bad story came from old paint in
                                    > run-down
                                    > buildings becoming bioavailable to very young children
                                    > (who put stuff in their months) and they ingested old
                                    > paint chips/flakes and indeed
                                    > suffered from lead poisoning as a result. I have never
                                    > heard of a single printer sickened from lead, but
                                    > sadly many have died from various smoking related
                                    > illnesses.
                                    > Joe halton
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- "Ph. D." <phil@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Steve Robison skribis:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Now one might say that he works with new
                                    > > > shiny molten type metal, and not the pesky
                                    > > > oxidized stuff, and that certainly might be a
                                    > > > factor of his good fortune. But remember too
                                    > > > that he is also working with lead alloy in all its
                                    > >
                                    > > > forms - solid to molten to gaseous. He's moving
                                    > > > pigs of it to the melting pots, he's standing
                                    > > > over it's molten form and breathing its fumes.
                                    > >
                                    > > Actually, lead does not turn to its gaseous state
                                    > > at the temperatures used in casting machines,
                                    > > which is about 700-750 degrees for Thompson
                                    > > casters, lower for Linotype/Ludlow/etc.
                                    > >
                                    > > Any fumes he's breathing are from the gas being
                                    > > burned to heat the pot.
                                    > >
                                    > > --Ph. D.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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