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Re: [PPLetterpress] Plastic plates' relief depth

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  • Harold Kyle
    ... First of all, thanks for sharing your positive experience with our base. ... This is a valid concern, but one that I can t recall hearing from customers
    Message 1 of 27 , Aug 21, 2002
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      On 8/20/02 8:36 AM, "Katie Harper" <knharper@...> wrote:
      >I use the Boxcar base most of the time, and have had very good results with
      > it.
      First of all, thanks for sharing your positive experience with our base.

      > There are times, however,
      > that I would like deeper relief, which the plastic-backed plates cannot
      > offer at this time.

      This is a valid concern, but one that I can't recall hearing from customers
      before this post. I usually handle these types of concerns one-on-one,
      because I often suspect the causes are related to an individual's technique.
      Many customers--including myself--use plastic-backed plates successfully for
      deep relief printing of wedding invitations on thick paper stock without
      "bottoming out" the plate.

      Before I address Katie's case, I would like to point out that the plastic
      backed plates have 0.029" relief, which is nearly identical to the relief of
      American Monotype (0.030"). This relief is also more than twice the overall
      thickness of both Rives BFK 250gsm and Mohawk Superfine 100# cover;
      "bottoming out" the plate on either of these thick papers would create a
      ridge on the reverse side of the paper more than twice as thick as the
      actual deboss*! Which side do your customers plan on reading?

      (* this "mountain" on the reverse side would be twice the thickness of the
      paper, plus the thickness of the paper itself, minus the "compression" that
      impression caused the paper. )

      So I wonder if these concerns are hocus-pocus. If there are other printers
      on the list who share this concern, please speak up! I would love to offer a
      system with deeper relief if it's needed. I just haven't seen (or heard) of
      the current plates' limitations until now. Perhaps I can help, though:

      Katie: I wonder if your are truly experiencing the plate "bottoming out". In
      experimenting this, I found you can get the full 0.029" of relief before the
      backing of the polymer plate hits the paper. When this happens, the backing
      burnishes the paper and creates an outline of the backing of the plate in
      the paper's surface. Is this the symptom that you have? If so, you are
      correct: you need a deeper relief plate. Contact me on- or off-list if
      you're interested in a system that will allow you a deeper relief without
      using magnetic bases.

      If you don't see the outline of the backing on the paper, then you haven't
      reached the plate's capacity for debossing the paper. If this is the case,
      contact me on- or off-list about press techniques to help you get more
      relief out of your plate. Please let me know what press, what paper, and
      what size form you're printing.

      Thanks,
      Harold

      ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
      Boxcar Press
      Fine Printing and Binding ~ Digital Letterpress Supplies
      640 Fellows Avenue ~ Syracuse, NY 13210
      315-473-0930 ~ phone and fax
      www.boxcarpress.com
      ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    • David Griffin
      What I ve always wondered is if the beard is the same angle on photpholymer plates as it is on foundry type. When I crank up the impression, I could swear
      Message 2 of 27 , Aug 22, 2002
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        What I've always wondered is if the beard is the same angle on photpholymer
        plates as it is on foundry type. When I crank up the impression, I could swear
        the "type" becomes slightly bold-er. Of course, it could be my crummy platen dressing.......
        Dave
        Windswept Press


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Katie Harper
        Sounds like you have too much ink or your rollers are too low, or rollers are not in good condition. There are a variety of issues to deal with, and I have a
        Message 3 of 27 , Aug 23, 2002
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          Sounds like you have too much ink or your rollers are too low, or rollers
          are not in good condition. There are a variety of issues to deal with, and I
          have a bit of experience with this particular battle. If you look at the
          final print through a loupe, you will probably see ink spreading out beyond
          the letter. See George Mill's book Platen Press Operation for some good
          illustration of various inking problems.




          Katie Harper
          Ars Brevis Press
          Cincinnati, OH
          513-233-9588
          http://www.arsbrevispress.com





          > From: "David Griffin" <davidgriffin@...>
          > Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:03:53 -0400
          > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
          > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Plastic plates' relief depth
          >
          > What I've always wondered is if the beard is the same angle on photpholymer
          > plates as it is on foundry type. When I crank up the impression, I could
          > swear
          > the "type" becomes slightly bold-er. Of course, it could be my crummy platen
          > dressing.......
          > Dave
          > Windswept Press
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ? To respond to a post or post a message to the membership:
          > PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
          > ? Encountering problems? contact:
          > PPLetterpress-owner@yahoogroups.com
          > ? To unsubscribe:
          > PPLetterpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • David Griffin
          Sounds like you have too much ink or your rollers are too low, or rollers are not in good condition Thanks for the response, Katie, and those are certainly
          Message 4 of 27 , Aug 23, 2002
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            "Sounds like you have too much ink or your rollers are too low, or rollers are not in good condition"
            Thanks for the response, Katie, and those are certainly good possibilities. But my rollers are new, I've adjusted them with a guage, and I don't get the same effect with foundry type. And I still wonder if anyone knows if the angle is different.
            Thanks, Dave


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • bielerpr
            ... Dave I m not sure what the angle of slope is offhand. Think I have that in my notes somewhere, but at any rate, I would suspect the degree of inclination
            Message 5 of 27 , Aug 23, 2002
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              > "Sounds like you have too much ink or your rollers are too low, or rollers are not in good condition"
              > Thanks for the response, Katie, and those are certainly good possibilities. But my rollers are new, I've adjusted them with a guage, and I don't get the same effect with foundry type. And I still wonder if anyone knows if the angle is different.
              > Thanks, Dave
              >

              Dave

              I'm not sure what the angle of slope is offhand. Think I have that in
              my notes somewhere, but at any rate, I would suspect the degree of
              inclination would be more similar to that of photoengravings rather
              than metal type. Secondly, the slope might be altered somewhat by
              exposure and washout times. The longer the exposure the more bottom
              fill-in will occur (the linking photopolymer grows upward from bottom
              to top with longer exposure). The more washout the more the
              possibility of undercutting near the surface image. Two somewhat
              contradictory processes that can be used to complement each other.
              This is especially forced for halftones.

              The enlargement you are concerned with is why there is so much stress
              here (on the list) on compensating for this effect at the prepress
              stage, both for type and images.

              Gerald
            • Hrant H Papazian
              From: Katie Harper ... I don t get it. Haven t we established that there is always some gain, especially affecting the color/texture of small type? hhp
              Message 6 of 27 , Aug 24, 2002
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                From: Katie Harper
                > Sounds like you have too much ink or ....

                I don't get it.
                Haven't we established that there is always some gain,
                especially affecting the color/texture of small type?

                hhp
              • Fontdr@aol.com
                There are only 2 elements that make letterpress print–ink and impression. From there on its a plate problem.
                Message 7 of 27 , Aug 24, 2002
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                  There are only 2 elements that make letterpress print–ink and impression.
                  From there on its a plate problem.
                • Katie Harper
                  I have been contacted by a young man in Cincinnati who has inherited his grandfather s C&P Old Style 10x15 platen press (serial number 2024, dating from about
                  Message 8 of 27 , Aug 24, 2002
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                    I have been contacted by a young man in Cincinnati who has inherited his
                    grandfather's C&P Old Style 10x15 platen press (serial number 2024, dating
                    from about 1898) and several cases of type, with chases, job sticks, and all
                    the workings for a small print shop (cabinets containing type cases are
                    homemade). The press is in good working condition and needs a good home with
                    someone who will use it and care for it as the grandfather did. It is,
                    however, in a walkout basement, so it will need to be disassembled in order
                    to be moved out through the doorways. The good news is that there are not
                    any stairs!

                    If you are interested, please contact me for more information.


                    Katie Harper
                    Ars Brevis Press
                    Cincinnati, OH
                    513-233-9588
                    http://www.arsbrevispress.com
                  • bielerpr
                    Katie Regarding your earlier question: Here s an odd list I scrounged up of some commercial concerns scattered about the US (on your side of the river) either
                    Message 9 of 27 , Aug 24, 2002
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                      Katie

                      Regarding your earlier question: Here's an odd list I scrounged up of
                      some commercial concerns scattered about the US (on your side of the
                      river) either "manufacturing" photopolymer plates or "processing"
                      them. Hard to tell from the descriptions. I guess just check out
                      those listed in your own region. I doubt there is any way that I
                      could put together a decent list of all commercial processors. The
                      lists I have in the Bookmarks section are the more common (non-
                      industry) processors that most book arts folk use.

                      Gerald


                      COSCO GRAPHICS
                      Photopolymer, rubber platemakers
                      TOLEDO, OH

                      E Z PACKAGING & GRAPHICS
                      Photopolymer, rubber platemakers
                      LILBURN, GA

                      MATRIX UNLIMITED INC
                      Flexo, mylar, photopolymer platemakers
                      ROCHESTER, NY

                      MATTHEWS INTERNATIONAL CORP
                      Mfrs, rubber, photopolymer printing plates, film masters
                      NORTH ADDLEBORO, MA

                      MULLER, WILLIAM, ENGRAVING INC
                      Mfrs, flexographic, photopolymer plates, photoengravings
                      WOODSIDE, NY

                      PATERSON STAMP
                      Offset platemakers; photopolymer plates
                      CLIFTON, NJ

                      QUINT CO
                      Mfrs, rubber, photopolymer, flexo printing plates
                      HILADELPHIA, PA

                      SHAW, E C, CO
                      Rubber, photopolymer printing plates
                      CINCINNATI, OH

                      VISIMARK INC
                      Flexo, photopolymer, rubber platemakers
                      WORCESTER, MA
                    • bielerpr
                      ... n. ... Hi This didn t come through properly. Bit of a glitch. Keyboarding I d suspect. But yes, letterpress s unique qualities are accumulating ink gain
                      Message 10 of 27 , Aug 25, 2002
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                        --- In PPLetterpress@y..., Fontdr@a... wrote:
                        > There are only 2 elements that make letterpress printâ*"ink and impressio=n.
                        > From there on its a plate problem.

                        Hi

                        This didn't come through properly. Bit of a glitch. Keyboarding I'd
                        suspect. But yes, letterpress's unique qualities are accumulating ink
                        gain and impression. But the plate has to be adjusted for this, yes?
                        Or rather the imaging has to be adjusted prior to making the plate.
                        Quite simple stuff actually. You can easily get there, but all the
                        action is on the front end. Once solved, everything afterward is just
                        letterpress. Yes?

                        Gerald

                        ps: I just have to say this. When I began as a "fine press" printer,
                        though the term then was "private press," we rarely used the word
                        "letterpress" because of its, by then, commercial denigration. My,
                        my, my, how that has changed.
                      • Katie Harper
                        Thanks for the info, Gerald. I will pass it along to my workshop students who are always asking about vendors who do polymer plates. I was delighted to see
                        Message 11 of 27 , Aug 25, 2002
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                          Thanks for the info, Gerald. I will pass it along to my workshop students
                          who are always asking about vendors who do polymer plates. I was delighted
                          to see there is one in Cincinnati. I believe there is also a list on the
                          AAPA website, but I have not seen it.




                          Katie Harper
                          Ars Brevis Press
                          Cincinnati, OH
                          513-233-9588
                          http://www.arsbrevispress.com





                          > From: "bielerpr" <bieler@...>
                          > Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:09:26 -0000
                          > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Plate processors
                          >
                          > Katie
                          >
                          > Regarding your earlier question: Here's an odd list I scrounged up of
                          > some commercial concerns scattered about the US (on your side of the
                          > river) either "manufacturing" photopolymer plates or "processing"
                          > them. Hard to tell from the descriptions. I guess just check out
                          > those listed in your own region. I doubt there is any way that I
                          > could put together a decent list of all commercial processors. The
                          > lists I have in the Bookmarks section are the more common (non-
                          > industry) processors that most book arts folk use.
                          >
                          > Gerald
                          >
                          >
                          > COSCO GRAPHICS
                          > Photopolymer, rubber platemakers
                          > TOLEDO, OH
                          >
                          > E Z PACKAGING & GRAPHICS
                          > Photopolymer, rubber platemakers
                          > LILBURN, GA
                          >
                          > MATRIX UNLIMITED INC
                          > Flexo, mylar, photopolymer platemakers
                          > ROCHESTER, NY
                          >
                          > MATTHEWS INTERNATIONAL CORP
                          > Mfrs, rubber, photopolymer printing plates, film masters
                          > NORTH ADDLEBORO, MA
                          >
                          > MULLER, WILLIAM, ENGRAVING INC
                          > Mfrs, flexographic, photopolymer plates, photoengravings
                          > WOODSIDE, NY
                          >
                          > PATERSON STAMP
                          > Offset platemakers; photopolymer plates
                          > CLIFTON, NJ
                          >
                          > QUINT CO
                          > Mfrs, rubber, photopolymer, flexo printing plates
                          > HILADELPHIA, PA
                          >
                          > SHAW, E C, CO
                          > Rubber, photopolymer printing plates
                          > CINCINNATI, OH
                          >
                          > VISIMARK INC
                          > Flexo, photopolymer, rubber platemakers
                          > WORCESTER, MA
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > • To respond to a post or post a message to the membership:
                          > PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                          > • Encountering problems? contact:
                          > PPLetterpress-owner@yahoogroups.com
                          > • To unsubscribe:
                          > PPLetterpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                        • Katie Harper
                          I had an odd experience yesterday, and though I d pass it along to this list in case someone else has experienced the same thing or has a clue as to how I can
                          Message 12 of 27 , Aug 25, 2002
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                            I had an odd experience yesterday, and though I'd pass it along to this list
                            in case someone else has experienced the same thing or has a clue as to how
                            I can fix it.

                            What happened is this: I was setting type for a small brochure using Quark
                            Xpress 3.32 on my Mac G4 running 9.0.4. When I switched to the final font,
                            Centaur, all the lower parts of the descender on the lowercase g's were
                            gone. Also the tail on the uppercase italic Q. I had never noticed this
                            before with this font, which I use frequently, and I somehow doubted if
                            Bruce Rogers intended this. When printed on a laserprinter, the letters are
                            whole. When printed on an ink jet, which I assume is a QuickDraw printer and
                            only reproduces what is on the screen, the same pieces are missing. When I
                            tried the experiment in PageMaker I got the same results, although not as
                            much was missing. With Illustrator, the letters appear whole on screen.
                            Changing the baseline and leading didn't do a thing, nor did type size. I
                            tried a couple of other serif fonts, but could not repeat the problem, so it
                            may be endemic to Centaur.

                            Does anyone have an idea what is going on here, and more importantly, is
                            there something I can do to fix it?

                            Thanks.


                            Katie Harper
                            Ars Brevis Press
                            Cincinnati, OH
                            513-233-9588
                            http://www.arsbrevispress.com
                          • Brian Allen
                            Katie - some more info is needed to best diagnose the problem - are you using Adobe Type Manager? What version number of the font? Adobe or Monotype
                            Message 13 of 27 , Aug 25, 2002
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                              Katie -
                              some more info is needed to best diagnose the problem - are you using Adobe
                              Type Manager? What version number of the font? Adobe or Monotype
                              manufacture? (look in the .afm file at the notice, copyright and version
                              fields).
                              FYI, ATM allows you to preserve either line spacing or character shapes (see
                              the "general" settings under preferences) when it displays on screen.
                              Brian Allen

                              on 8/25/02 4:28 PM, Katie Harper at knharper@... wrote:

                              > I had an odd experience yesterday, and though I'd pass it along to this list
                              > in case someone else has experienced the same thing or has a clue as to how
                              > I can fix it.
                              >
                              > What happened is this: I was setting type for a small brochure using Quark
                              > Xpress 3.32 on my Mac G4 running 9.0.4. When I switched to the final font,
                              > Centaur, all the lower parts of the descender on the lowercase g's were
                              > gone. Also the tail on the uppercase italic Q. I had never noticed this
                              > before with this font, which I use frequently, and I somehow doubted if
                              > Bruce Rogers intended this. When printed on a laserprinter, the letters are
                              > whole. When printed on an ink jet, which I assume is a QuickDraw printer and
                              > only reproduces what is on the screen, the same pieces are missing. When I
                              > tried the experiment in PageMaker I got the same results, although not as
                              > much was missing. With Illustrator, the letters appear whole on screen.
                              > Changing the baseline and leading didn't do a thing, nor did type size. I
                              > tried a couple of other serif fonts, but could not repeat the problem, so it
                              > may be endemic to Centaur.
                              >
                              > Does anyone have an idea what is going on here, and more importantly, is
                              > there something I can do to fix it?
                              >
                              > Thanks.
                              >
                              >
                              > Katie Harper
                              > Ars Brevis Press
                              > Cincinnati, OH
                              > 513-233-9588
                              > http://www.arsbrevispress.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ? To respond to a post or post a message to the membership:
                              > PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                              > ? Encountering problems? contact:
                              > PPLetterpress-owner@yahoogroups.com
                              > ? To unsubscribe:
                              > PPLetterpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                            • Katie Harper
                              Thank you for advice and help with the typographic strangity. Here is additional info: font is Adobe, version 001.001 Switching the ATM prefs to preserve
                              Message 14 of 27 , Aug 25, 2002
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                                Thank you for advice and help with the typographic strangity.

                                Here is additional info:

                                font is Adobe, version 001.001

                                Switching the ATM prefs to preserve character shapes helped. The bottom of
                                the g came back, but the Italic Q still gets cut off. This was in Quark. I
                                haven't tried PageMaker yet.

                                It's been awhile since I read the book that came with ATM Deluxe. Will
                                switching to preserve character shapes be a compromise of some kind?


                                Katie Harper
                                Ars Brevis Press
                                Cincinnati, OH
                                513-233-9588
                                http://www.arsbrevispress.com





                                > From: Brian Allen <allenprinter@...>
                                > Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                > Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 17:33:06 -0700
                                > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Digital Strangity
                                >
                                > Katie -
                                > some more info is needed to best diagnose the problem - are you using Adobe
                                > Type Manager? What version number of the font? Adobe or Monotype
                                > manufacture? (look in the .afm file at the notice, copyright and version
                                > fields).
                                > FYI, ATM allows you to preserve either line spacing or character shapes (see
                                > the "general" settings under preferences) when it displays on screen.
                                > Brian Allen
                                >
                                > on 8/25/02 4:28 PM, Katie Harper at knharper@... wrote:
                                >
                                >> I had an odd experience yesterday, and though I'd pass it along to this list
                                >> in case someone else has experienced the same thing or has a clue as to how
                                >> I can fix it.
                                >>
                                >> What happened is this: I was setting type for a small brochure using Quark
                                >> Xpress 3.32 on my Mac G4 running 9.0.4. When I switched to the final font,
                                >> Centaur, all the lower parts of the descender on the lowercase g's were
                                >> gone. Also the tail on the uppercase italic Q. I had never noticed this
                                >> before with this font, which I use frequently, and I somehow doubted if
                                >> Bruce Rogers intended this. When printed on a laserprinter, the letters are
                                >> whole. When printed on an ink jet, which I assume is a QuickDraw printer and
                                >> only reproduces what is on the screen, the same pieces are missing. When I
                                >> tried the experiment in PageMaker I got the same results, although not as
                                >> much was missing. With Illustrator, the letters appear whole on screen.
                                >> Changing the baseline and leading didn't do a thing, nor did type size. I
                                >> tried a couple of other serif fonts, but could not repeat the problem, so it
                                >> may be endemic to Centaur.
                                >>
                                >> Does anyone have an idea what is going on here, and more importantly, is
                                >> there something I can do to fix it?
                                >>
                                >> Thanks.
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> Katie Harper
                                >> Ars Brevis Press
                                >> Cincinnati, OH
                                >> 513-233-9588
                                >> http://www.arsbrevispress.com
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> ? To respond to a post or post a message to the membership:
                                >> PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                >> ? Encountering problems? contact:
                                >> PPLetterpress-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                >> ? To unsubscribe:
                                >> PPLetterpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >>
                                >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >>
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ? To respond to a post or post a message to the membership:
                                > PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                > ? Encountering problems? contact:
                                > PPLetterpress-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                > ? To unsubscribe:
                                > PPLetterpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
                              • Brian Allen
                                Katie - The ATM Deluxe 4.5 user guide has this to say: Preserve: Choose the attributes that ATM Deluxe preserves when displaying or printing fonts with accents
                                Message 15 of 27 , Aug 25, 2002
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                                  Katie -
                                  The ATM Deluxe 4.5 user guide has this to say:
                                  Preserve: Choose the attributes that ATM Deluxe preserves when displaying or
                                  printing fonts with accents or other diacritical marks.
                                  + line spacing keeps all spacing between lines intact. ATM Deluxe may
                                  compress uppercase letters with accents or other diacritical marks. This
                                  option is the default.
                                  + Character shapes increases the size of each character's bounding box so
                                  that it prints to non-PostScript printers in its entirety. Selecting this
                                  option may affect spacing between lines.

                                  I have the same Centaur as you do, ATM Deluxe 4.6.1, and I don't see any
                                  parts of letters being cut off on screen - with a standard 21 inch monitor).
                                  My printer is PostScript, so Centaur prints cleanly there. I have Quark
                                  4.11, though that shouldn't be the issue. I'm using the Adobe PS print
                                  driver.
                                  Brian Allen

                                  on 8/25/02 6:16 PM, Katie Harper at knharper@... wrote:

                                  > Thank you for advice and help with the typographic strangity.
                                  >
                                  > Here is additional info:
                                  >
                                  > font is Adobe, version 001.001
                                  >
                                  > Switching the ATM prefs to preserve character shapes helped. The bottom of
                                  > the g came back, but the Italic Q still gets cut off. This was in Quark. I
                                  > haven't tried PageMaker yet.
                                  >
                                  > It's been awhile since I read the book that came with ATM Deluxe. Will
                                  > switching to preserve character shapes be a compromise of some kind?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Katie Harper
                                  > Ars Brevis Press
                                  > Cincinnati, OH
                                  > 513-233-9588
                                  > http://www.arsbrevispress.com
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >> From: Brian Allen <allenprinter@...>
                                  >> Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                  >> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 17:33:06 -0700
                                  >> To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                                  >> Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Digital Strangity
                                  >>
                                  >> Katie -
                                  >> some more info is needed to best diagnose the problem - are you using Adobe
                                  >> Type Manager? What version number of the font? Adobe or Monotype
                                  >> manufacture? (look in the .afm file at the notice, copyright and version
                                  >> fields).
                                  >> FYI, ATM allows you to preserve either line spacing or character shapes (see
                                  >> the "general" settings under preferences) when it displays on screen.
                                  >> Brian Allen
                                  >>
                                  >> on 8/25/02 4:28 PM, Katie Harper at knharper@... wrote:
                                  >>
                                  >>> I had an odd experience yesterday, and though I'd pass it along to this list
                                  >>> in case someone else has experienced the same thing or has a clue as to how
                                  >>> I can fix it.
                                  >>>
                                  >>> What happened is this: I was setting type for a small brochure using Quark
                                  >>> Xpress 3.32 on my Mac G4 running 9.0.4. When I switched to the final font,
                                  >>> Centaur, all the lower parts of the descender on the lowercase g's were
                                  >>> gone. Also the tail on the uppercase italic Q. I had never noticed this
                                  >>> before with this font, which I use frequently, and I somehow doubted if
                                  >>> Bruce Rogers intended this. When printed on a laserprinter, the letters are
                                  >>> whole. When printed on an ink jet, which I assume is a QuickDraw printer and
                                  >>> only reproduces what is on the screen, the same pieces are missing. When I
                                  >>> tried the experiment in PageMaker I got the same results, although not as
                                  >>> much was missing. With Illustrator, the letters appear whole on screen.
                                  >>> Changing the baseline and leading didn't do a thing, nor did type size. I
                                  >>> tried a couple of other serif fonts, but could not repeat the problem, so it
                                  >>> may be endemic to Centaur.
                                  >>>
                                  >>> Does anyone have an idea what is going on here, and more importantly, is
                                  >>> there something I can do to fix it?
                                  >>>
                                  >>> Thanks.
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>> Katie Harper
                                  >>> Ars Brevis Press
                                  >>> Cincinnati, OH
                                  >>> 513-233-9588
                                  >>> http://www.arsbrevispress.com
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>> ? To respond to a post or post a message to the membership:
                                  >>> PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                  >>> ? Encountering problems? contact:
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                                  >>> PPLetterpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >>>
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                                  >>>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> ? To respond to a post or post a message to the membership:
                                  >> PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                  >> ? Encountering problems? contact:
                                  >> PPLetterpress-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                  >> ? To unsubscribe:
                                  >> PPLetterpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >>
                                  >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ? To respond to a post or post a message to the membership:
                                  > PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                  > ? Encountering problems? contact:
                                  > PPLetterpress-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                  > ? To unsubscribe:
                                  > PPLetterpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                • Fontdr@aol.com
                                  The problem is with the reading of the postscript. The laser printer will automatically translate the font for printer. QuarkXPress in the older versions
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Aug 25, 2002
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                                    The problem is with the reading of the postscript. The laser printer will
                                    automatically translate the font for printer. QuarkXPress in the older
                                    versions somtimes play games on the screen as well as the inkjet if there
                                    isn't a jet server.
                                    Bob Trogman
                                  • bielerpr
                                    Dave I did some looking around but could not find the degree of slope. In a NAPP technical manual on flexography that I have they indicate an expected increase
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Aug 25, 2002
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                                      Dave

                                      I did some looking around but could not find the degree of slope. In
                                      a NAPP technical manual on flexography that I have they indicate an
                                      expected increase in letterform gain of 5% from "negative to
                                      printing." This is flexography though (not letterpress per se) and
                                      usually in such reports "printing" has an awful lot to do with
                                      "pressure" exerted on the photopolymer surface. See the following
                                      for some interesting graphs

                                      http://www.flexography.org/flexo/pdf/04A2001.pdf

                                      They usually work this out much more in detail for the gain on
                                      halftones at various lpi in these reports than they do for type.

                                      I suspect that the 5% is quite close to the "maximum" amount of weight
                                      reduction that one would attempt at the prepress stage, or as
                                      Harold Kyle says, a bit more accurately, at the "pre-prepress" stage.

                                      Though, of course, whatever was the degree of slope for the various
                                      forms of metal type from foundry to foundry? handset, Monotype,
                                      Linotype, etc? I'd assume these all varied a bit? I know in the late
                                      fifties to early sixties Stempel was designing serrated edges into
                                      their large point sized type to allow for ink drain on the larger and
                                      faster presses of the time. The stuff looked like it had knicks on
                                      the letterform's edges. And they were knicks, but cast. I doubt there is
                                      any kind of consistency with any of the type technologies of the twentieth-
                                      century in regard to degree of slope.

                                      Gerald
                                    • Gerald Lange
                                      ... Hrant Good example! Probably should be expressed in metric. I assume they are talking at the micro-level (my new word for the day). But then, these
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Aug 26, 2002
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                                        Hrant H Papazian wrote:
                                        >
                                        > From: "bielerpr"
                                        > > I have they indicate an expected increase
                                        > > in letterform gain of 5%
                                        >
                                        > How could it be a percentage and not a metric amount?
                                        > Let's say you have a circle 10 inches in diameter,
                                        > no way is it going to gain 10 times more than a
                                        > circle of 1 inch.
                                        >
                                        > hhp

                                        Hrant

                                        Good example! Probably should be expressed in metric.

                                        I assume they are talking at the micro-level (my new word for the day).
                                        But then, these technical reports are a bit inscrutable (well, at least
                                        they are for me).

                                        Thanks for setting this one straight!!!

                                        Gerald
                                      • Katie Harper
                                        Hello and thanks to all who responded about my digital typographic strangity, ie, letters being clipped on screen or with ink jet printers. I think the reason
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Aug 26, 2002
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                                          Hello and thanks to all who responded about my digital typographic
                                          strangity, ie, letters being clipped on screen or with ink jet printers. I
                                          think the reason I have never noticed this before is that here to fore I
                                          have always used a laser printer. The ink jet is a new acquisition that I
                                          use for color proofs.

                                          The suggestion of switching ATM to preserve character shape (thank you Brian
                                          for that detail from the manual) had the most positive effect. In Quark, I
                                          was able to see both the bottom of the g but the Q was still clipped. With
                                          PageMaker, both letters were fine. This part of the ATM manual was a bit
                                          disconcerting, however: "Selecting this option (preserve character shape)
                                          may affect spacing between lines." Leads to visions of uneven leading all
                                          over the place...

                                          I think I shall keep the default setting (preserving line spacing) and turn
                                          it off when I know the final output has to be on an ink jet printer (rare).
                                          And when I really want things to look as right as rain, I'll set them in
                                          metal ;-)



                                          Katie Harper
                                          Ars Brevis Press
                                          Cincinnati, OH
                                          513-233-9588
                                          http://www.arsbrevispress.com





                                          > From: Fontdr@...
                                          > Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 01:08:21 EDT
                                          > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Digital Strangity
                                          >
                                          > The problem is with the reading of the postscript. The laser printer will
                                          > automatically translate the font for printer. QuarkXPress in the older
                                          > versions somtimes play games on the screen as well as the inkjet if there
                                          > isn't a jet server.
                                          > Bob Trogman
                                          >
                                        • Harold Kyle
                                          ... The Technical Data Sheets for Jet plates list the optimal slope as 25 to 30 degrees. I assume this means that a vertical slope is 0 degrees and a
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Aug 26, 2002
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                                            On 8/23/02 3:23 PM, "bielerpr" <bieler@...> wrote:
                                            > I'm not sure what the angle of slope is offhand.

                                            The Technical Data Sheets for Jet plates list the optimal slope as 25 to 30
                                            degrees. I assume this means that a vertical slope is 0 degrees and a
                                            horizontal slope (say, an unprocessed plate) is 90 degress.

                                            Keep in mind that the light source's size and proximity to the plate affect
                                            this angle. A large bank of lights 1-1/2" from the plate will produce a more
                                            "gradual" slope (closer to 30 degrees), while a point light source located a
                                            few feet above the plate will cause a very "steep" slope (closer to
                                            vertical). The close bank of lights will send UV light through the negative
                                            at an "angle", building up more of the beard and providing a better
                                            foundation for the surface.

                                            Perhaps the differences you notice between lead and plastic are due to ink
                                            taking to the two surfaces differently. You might try stiffening the ink
                                            with polymer. Matte polymer plates tend to fight the squeeze of ink. You
                                            might have better results if you haven't already tried a matte plate
                                            surface.

                                            Harold

                                            ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
                                            Boxcar Press
                                            Fine Printing and Binding ~ Digital Letterpress Supplies
                                            640 Fellows Avenue ~ Syracuse, NY 13210
                                            315-473-0930 ~ phone and fax
                                            www.boxcarpress.com
                                            ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
                                          • Hrant H Papazian
                                            From: bielerpr ... How could it be a percentage and not a metric amount? Let s say you have a circle 10 inches in diameter, no way is it going to gain 10
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Aug 26, 2002
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                                              From: "bielerpr"
                                              > I have they indicate an expected increase
                                              > in letterform gain of 5%

                                              How could it be a percentage and not a metric amount?
                                              Let's say you have a circle 10 inches in diameter,
                                              no way is it going to gain 10 times more than a
                                              circle of 1 inch.

                                              hhp
                                            • Hrant H Papazian
                                              From: Gerald Lange ... Well, if that means text (like at 10-11 point), it could make sense. If we assume that a normal text font has a stem width of within a
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Aug 27, 2002
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                                                From: Gerald Lange
                                                > I assume they are talking at the micro-level

                                                Well, if that means text (like at 10-11 point),
                                                it could make sense. If we assume that a "normal"
                                                text font has a stem width of within a narrow range,
                                                then a percentage is almost as good as a metric.

                                                And if you're working in Fontographer to compensate for
                                                gain (which I understand you yourself do), then it's much
                                                easier to just make things 5% thinner than try to calculate
                                                how many em units let's say 1/1000 of an inch is (for your
                                                intended point size).

                                                hhp
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