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Re: [PPLetterpress] Scoring

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  • Scott Rubel
    This example of holistic thinking is exquisite. Thank you for this, Fritz. You have helped more than one member with this. --Scott Rubel ... [Non-text portions
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 1 9:12 AM
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      This example of holistic thinking is exquisite. Thank you for this,
      Fritz. You have helped more than one member with this. --Scott Rubel

      nagraph1 wrote:

      >I'm trying to get 2 + 2 to equal 4 here, but Leora needs to move
      >from a slow hand fed platen to a high speed, high production rate
      >folder so they can expand their slow hand fed press work? Will it
      >take 3 shifts a day on the C&P to furnish even an hour's worth of
      >scoring/folding a day?
      >
      >It occurs to me the bottle neck is not the scoring, but the
      >printing. The next step should be to increase overall production and
      >to me that would indicate getting an automatic press, preferably a
      >Heidelberg platen. For the cost of a scoring unit or attachment that
      >goes on an existing folder, a good, sound Heidleberg would be the
      >step to take. Once confidence is built up in the press, then both
      >printing and scoring could be done on that press in much less time
      >with higher quality than the C&P. The C&P could stay in printing
      >production and supplement the output of the automatic press.
      >
      >In the good old days, it was general practice, even in union plants,
      >that one pressman could operate 2 Heidelberg platens, and where I
      >worked this was usually done every day of the work week. In later
      >years, I watched James Shanley at B Designs run 3 10x15 Heidelbergs
      >at one time. And B Designs turns out very nice work. To be saddled
      >with a slow production device like the C&P is not a long term
      >answer. The gadgets should come later once there is sound and
      >economical production underway. Press scores using scoring matrix
      >are hard to beat, despite the claims I saw on these videos and the
      >Heidelberg will walk away with a scoring job.
      >
      >One objection to the Heidelberg is that it is intimidating. There
      >are a growing number of women printers who have taken on Heidelbergs
      >and are doing superb work. Julie Holcomb in Califronia comes to mind
      >as a woman printer who has built an exceptional business using not
      >one but a number of Heidelbergs, including a cylinder. She figured
      >out early on the value of consistent quality using quality,
      >precision equipment. And if a business is growing and is hampered by
      >slow equipment, the answer is not to keep on expanding the slow
      >aspect, but to move to the next level of quality and rate of
      >production.
      >
      >Fritz
      >
      >--- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Scott Rubel <scott@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >>I saw the tri-creaser operate at a recent trade show and was
      >>impressed with its functionality for the price. I decided right
      >>
      >>
      >then
      >
      >
      >>that I would rather use this machine for scoring than a
      >>
      >>
      >letterpress
      >
      >
      >>anymore. Technifold makes a big deal about its method because it
      >>doesn't crack the fiber. They have a couple of demo videos on
      >>
      >>
      >their
      >
      >
      >>site.
      >>http://www.technifoldusa.com
      >>
      >>Rollem also had some great machines at the show, but for the
      >>
      >>
      >lower
      >
      >
      >>price ranges I think Technifold had them beat. It's hand fed,
      >>
      >>
      >sort
      >
      >
      >>of, but very fast. Setup is fast, too.
      >>http://www.rollemusa.com
      >>
      >>--Scott
      >>
      >>On Jul 31, 2007, at 4:11 PM, leorawest wrote:
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>>We are currently using our C&P for scoring, but are finding that
      >>>
      >>>
      >we
      >
      >
      >>>need to move this task off the press to accomodate our
      >>>
      >>>
      >business. Any
      >
      >
      >>>suggestions on what type of scoring machine (or score/fold
      >>>
      >>>
      >combo) to
      >
      >
      >>>get? We use minimum 80#, and up to 300# that we need to score
      >>>quickly.
      >>>Thanks!
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Peter Fraterdeus
      ... A gentleman, a scholar and a printer, Fritz is also obviously a good businessman In other words, a real throwback ;-) ...one of my very favorite old guys
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 1 12:17 PM
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        At 9:12 AM -0700 1 08 07, Scott Rubel wrote:
        >This example of holistic thinking is exquisite. Thank you for this,
        >Fritz. You have helped more than one member with this. --Scott Rubel
        >

        A gentleman, a scholar and a printer, Fritz is also obviously a good businessman

        In other words, a real throwback ;-)

        ...one of my very favorite 'old guys' was a guy from Venice who set the high tone for those who've followed...

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldus_Manutius
        whence:

        http://www.fraterdeus.com/lettering/books/1543_Manutius_Venice/
        (this one from Paolo, Aldo's son)

        P


        >nagraph1 wrote:
        >
        >>I'm trying to get 2 + 2 to equal 4 here, but Leora needs to move
        >>from a slow hand fed platen to a high speed, high production rate
        >>folder so they can expand their slow hand fed press work? Will it
        >>take 3 shifts a day on the C&P to furnish even an hour's worth of
        > >scoring/folding a day?



        --
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      • leorawest
        Thank you for your sound advice, Fritz. Indeed, we already plan to purchase Heidelberg in February or so when we move into a larger space. However, we
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 1 5:28 PM
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          Thank you for your sound advice, Fritz. Indeed, we already plan to
          purchase Heidelberg in February or so when we move into a larger
          space. However, we absolutely do not have the room to add a press at
          our current location, and absolutely cannot move before the end of our
          lease. (And yes, we are feeling lucky to be having "growing pains".)

          We would really like to find a smallish, reliable scoring machine that,
          even if only manually scores one at a time, could help us through this
          transition period of about 6 months. Are we dreaming?


          > >nagraph1 wrote:
          > >
          > >>I'm trying to get 2 + 2 to equal 4 here, but Leora needs to move
          > >>from a slow hand fed platen to a high speed, high production rate
          > >>folder so they can expand their slow hand fed press work? Will it
          > >>take 3 shifts a day on the C&P to furnish even an hour's worth of
          > > >scoring/folding a day?
        • nagraph1
          Well, you re on the right track. I don t know a thing about this company, but check what they have: http://www.adss.net/index.php?cPath=24_47 and the first
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 1 6:06 PM
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            Well, you're on the right track. I don't know a thing about this
            company, but check what they have:

            http://www.adss.net/index.php?cPath=24_47

            and the first non-manual machine they show is made by Rosback, a
            well known and respected US company. The other brand I see that is
            from Canada is Graphic Wizard, but these machine units equal that of
            the Heidelberg in cost, though certainly don't take up the same
            room. We used to supply Graphic Wizard with their scoring and
            perforating discs as they are standard Cowan discs we make.

            Fritz

            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "leorawest" <leorawest@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Thank you for your sound advice, Fritz. Indeed, we already plan
            to
            > purchase Heidelberg in February or so when we move into a larger
            > space. However, we absolutely do not have the room to add a press
            at
            > our current location, and absolutely cannot move before the end of
            our
            > lease. (And yes, we are feeling lucky to be having "growing
            pains".)
            >
            > We would really like to find a smallish, reliable scoring machine
            that,
            > even if only manually scores one at a time, could help us through
            this
            > transition period of about 6 months. Are we dreaming?
            >
            >
          • Mel
            Take a look at the Fastbind C-400. There is one on Ebay right now (Auction 260144786204) for a very attractive price. I believe normal retail is about $1300. I
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 2 6:00 AM
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              Take a look at the Fastbind C-400. There is one on Ebay right now
              (Auction 260144786204) for a very attractive price. I believe normal
              retail is about $1300. I was able to obtain one from a distributor for
              about $800 as it had been returned when the buyer returned it and the
              distributor wanted to peddle it as quickly as possible. I have been
              very happy with it, using it for cards and for book covers. You can
              see the other models they offer at http://www.maping.com/

              Mel
            • alncarter2003
              Scoring paper in quantity is the sort of work that s better done by a trade bindery than by yourself or your shop--that s what most commercial printers do. You
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 6 4:16 PM
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                Scoring paper in quantity is the sort of work that's better done by a
                trade bindery than by yourself or your shop--that's what most
                commercial printers do. You could buy a heidelberg windmill or a
                miehle vertical to do that work but how long would it take you to pay
                that equipment off with whatever you charge for scoring--years?
                Instead, you simply send it out, get it done right, quickly, and
                cheaply, you mark it up and actually (gulp!) make a profit on the work
                instead of making an investment of time and money.

                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "leorawest" <leorawest@...> wrote:
                >
                > We are currently using our C&P for scoring, but are finding that we
                > need to move this task off the press to accomodate our business. Any
                > suggestions on what type of scoring machine (or score/fold combo) to
                > get? We use minimum 80#, and up to 300# that we need to score quickly.
                > Thanks!
                >
              • Jamison Hiner
                I m sick of Kinkos messing up my jobs. Im looking for a way to score some cards. I will either purchase a simple machine or do it on my press. Is there some
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
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                  I'm sick of Kinkos messing up my jobs. Im looking for a way to score
                  some cards. I will either purchase a simple machine or do it on my
                  press. Is there some sort of template that one can lock in his press
                  to easily score different sized cards or is it just a matter of trial
                  and error to get it centered?
                • Warren Gailbreath, Jr.
                  Contact Fritz at NA Graphics. He has scoring Matrix and rule. I am sure he can direct you accordingly on how to utilize it and get great results. I score using
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
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                    Contact Fritz at NA Graphics. He has scoring Matrix
                    and rule. I am sure he can direct you accordingly on
                    how to utilize it and get great results.

                    I score using Matrix everyday. I don't score without
                    it.


                    Warren Gailbreath,Jr.
                    Southwest Finishing, Inc.
                    Ft.Worth, Texas
                    APA # 800
                  • Peter Fraterdeus
                    Fritz, I ll be interested in this as well. Thx Peter ... -- AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@ {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat!
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
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                      Fritz, I'll be interested in this as well.

                      Thx
                      Peter

                      At 9:38 AM -0800 20 01 08, Warren Gailbreath, Jr. wrote:
                      >Contact Fritz at NA Graphics. He has scoring Matrix
                      >and rule. I am sure he can direct you accordingly on
                      >how to utilize it and get great results.
                      >
                      >I score using Matrix everyday. I don't score without
                      >it.
                      >

                      --
                      AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                      {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!}

                      ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.exquisiteletterpress.com

                      -:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*
                      Peter Fraterdeus http://www.alphabets.com : Sign up for "MiceType"!
                      Galena, Illinois Design Philosophy Fonts Lettering Letterpress Wood Type
                      Dubuque, Iowa http://www.fraterdeus.com
                      Photography Irish Fiddle Political Observation
                      http://flickr.com/photos/pfraterdeus
                      http://youtube.com/user/pfraterdeus
                    • Scott Rubel
                      Scoring is easier than printing, and no trial and error required. Assuming you are just scoring a card in half, you just need a rule from Fritz or somewhere.
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
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                        Scoring is easier than printing, and no trial and error required.
                        Assuming you are just scoring a card in half, you just need a rule
                        from Fritz or somewhere. Lock it up, register it, and score away. If
                        the cards are thick, you might want matrix, too. A small investment
                        compared to the screwups of Kinkos, but just as easy.

                        --Scott

                        On Jan 20, 2008, at 7:09 AM, Jamison Hiner wrote:

                        > I'm sick of Kinkos messing up my jobs. Im looking for a way to score
                        > some cards. I will either purchase a simple machine or do it on my
                        > press. Is there some sort of template that one can lock in his press
                        > to easily score different sized cards or is it just a matter of trial
                        > and error to get it centered?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • nagraph1
                        Treat a scoring job just like a printing job--lockup a piece of 2 pt steel scoring rule suitable for the work at hand, take the ink rollers off the press, get
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
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                          Treat a scoring job just like a printing job--lockup a piece of 2 pt
                          steel scoring rule suitable for the work at hand, take the ink rollers
                          off the press, get position for setting gauges (take a trial impression
                          of the rule with a touch of ink on its face so you can see the rule
                          printed on the tympan) and then use scoring matrix for the counter die
                          that the rule pushes the paper into, and you're set after removing some
                          packing to allow for the thickness of the backing used on the matrix.
                          This is good for up to thousands of impressions and if laid out
                          properly will give perfect scores in register. Matrix is sized
                          according to thickness of the paper (not basis weight), adheres to the
                          tympan, and is used once, then discarded. Anyone with a platen or
                          cylinder press who sends their simple scoring work out needs to rethink
                          what they are doing. Difficult die cutting and related should be done
                          on the appropriate equipment, but scoring is simple. Keep it in house
                          and keep the money where it belongs, in your pocket.

                          Fritz

                          ---------PLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Jamison Hiner" <jamie@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > I'm sick of Kinkos messing up my jobs. Im looking for a way to score
                          > some cards. I will either purchase a simple machine or do it on my
                          > press. Is there some sort of template that one can lock in his press
                          > to easily score different sized cards or is it just a matter of trial
                          > and error to get it centered?
                          >
                        • Jamison Hiner
                          I will definitely be doing my own scoring from here on out. Now I need help understanding which matrix I need to get. Most of my paper has been the nice thick
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
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                            I will definitely be doing my own scoring from here on out. Now I need
                            help understanding which matrix I need to get. Most of my paper has
                            been the nice thick 110# lettra 100% cotton

                            Thank you all for your help
                            Jamie



                            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "nagraph1" <nagraph@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Treat a scoring job just like a printing job--lockup a piece of 2 pt
                            > steel scoring rule suitable for the work at hand, take the ink rollers
                            > off the press, get position for setting gauges (take a trial impression
                            > of the rule with a touch of ink on its face so you can see the rule
                            > printed on the tympan) and then use scoring matrix for the counter die
                            > that the rule pushes the paper into, and you're set after removing some
                            > packing to allow for the thickness of the backing used on the matrix.
                            > This is good for up to thousands of impressions and if laid out
                            > properly will give perfect scores in register. Matrix is sized
                            > according to thickness of the paper (not basis weight), adheres to the
                            > tympan, and is used once, then discarded. Anyone with a platen or
                            > cylinder press who sends their simple scoring work out needs to rethink
                            > what they are doing. Difficult die cutting and related should be done
                            > on the appropriate equipment, but scoring is simple. Keep it in house
                            > and keep the money where it belongs, in your pocket.
                            >
                            > Fritz
                            >
                            > ---------PLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Jamison Hiner" <jamie@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I'm sick of Kinkos messing up my jobs. Im looking for a way to score
                            > > some cards. I will either purchase a simple machine or do it on my
                            > > press. Is there some sort of template that one can lock in his press
                            > > to easily score different sized cards or is it just a matter of trial
                            > > and error to get it centered?
                            > >
                            >
                          • nagraph1
                            Knowing the paper/thickness points towards mauve that handles .020 to .024, or olive, in the same thickness range, the difference being that mauve has a
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
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                              Knowing the paper/thickness points towards mauve that handles .020
                              to .024, or olive, in the same thickness range, the difference being
                              that mauve has a channel width of 1.7mm and olive has a channel widh
                              of 1.9mm. We stock the mauve, but any of the matrix is an easy order.
                              The backer thickness is .009", so that much packing has to be removed
                              or the scoring rule acts like a cutting rule.

                              Fritz

                              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Jamison Hiner" <jamie@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > I will definitely be doing my own scoring from here on out. Now I
                              need
                              > help understanding which matrix I need to get. Most of my paper has
                              > been the nice thick 110# lettra 100% cotton
                              >
                              > Thank you all for your help
                              > Jamie
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "nagraph1" <nagraph@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Treat a scoring job just like a printing job--lockup a piece of 2
                              pt
                              > > steel scoring rule suitable for the work at hand, take the ink
                              rollers
                              > > off the press, get position for setting gauges (take a trial
                              impression
                              > > of the rule with a touch of ink on its face so you can see the
                              rule
                              > > printed on the tympan) and then use scoring matrix for the
                              counter die
                              > > that the rule pushes the paper into, and you're set after
                              removing some
                              > > packing to allow for the thickness of the backing used on the
                              matrix.
                              > > This is good for up to thousands of impressions and if laid out
                              > > properly will give perfect scores in register. Matrix is sized
                              > > according to thickness of the paper (not basis weight), adheres
                              to the
                              > > tympan, and is used once, then discarded. Anyone with a platen or
                              > > cylinder press who sends their simple scoring work out needs to
                              rethink
                              > > what they are doing. Difficult die cutting and related should be
                              done
                              > > on the appropriate equipment, but scoring is simple. Keep it in
                              house
                              > > and keep the money where it belongs, in your pocket.
                              > >
                              > > Fritz
                              > >
                              > > ---------PLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Jamison Hiner" <jamie@>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > I'm sick of Kinkos messing up my jobs. Im looking for a way to
                              score
                              > > > some cards. I will either purchase a simple machine or do it on
                              my
                              > > > press. Is there some sort of template that one can lock in his
                              press
                              > > > to easily score different sized cards or is it just a matter of
                              trial
                              > > > and error to get it centered?
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
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