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Re: Soy update

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  • splitflexi
    ... Maybe off topic: I think it s worth noting that in some ways it really doesn t matter where they are grown; commodity monoculture crops like corn and soy
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 7, 2007
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      > I spoke with someone at Gans who says that the soybeans from which they make
      > their soy ink are domestically grown. He also mentioned that the push for
      > creating vegetable oil inks stems from an effort to lower VOC emissions.

      Maybe off topic:

      I think it's worth noting that in some ways it really doesn't matter where they are grown;
      commodity monoculture crops like corn and soy are interchangeable-- doesn't matter to
      world markets if they are grown in the US or Brasil or South Africa, and thus they are all
      interrelated and part of one sick global materials stream. Be assured that soybeans grown
      domestically just also happen to be causing major ecological harm. I'd be surprised if
      anyone could really verify the source of a soybean anyway, unless they cultivated it
      themselves. See Michael Pollan's new book for a relevant discussion of commodity corn,
      specifically the net energy loss involved in monoculture crops, like soy. We'd be better off
      eating petroleum. What is clear is that all of these types of decisions and substitutions
      have profound and often hidden consequences which might cancel out the good
      intentions. It's like touting your recycled content in your paper: great, thinks the
      consumer, now I can use more paper instead of thinking about whether I really need to
      use more paper. OK, low or lower VOCs in the press room, which some might extrapolate
      from and construe as a "green" benefit, but which is really a (significant) Labor benefit, but
      at what cost? More likely soy inks were the byproduct, like a frightening amount of our
      material world, of trying to find an outlet for overproduction in the agricultural sector.
      Anyone got data on how much "embodied energy" a pound of soy ink contains vs a
      conventional oil-based ink? It's highly likely that it takes more oil to make the soy ink than
      to make the equivalent petroleum-based ink.

      So yeah, cleaner air in the press room, I guess, but how much of that is really coming from
      your ink? Maybe in a newspaper plant, ok. And if it's used as a marketing gimmick to
      drive "green consumption", which it clearly is from time to time, I'd venture that it doesn't
      make a difference what you print with, and thinking that it does is perhaps more
      dangerous than anything else.

      You might try a nice linseed oil-based ink if you are concerned about VOCs. Plenty of
      petroleum burned making that too, of course...


      Duncan Dempster
      Honolulu, Hawaii
    • heidrun mumper-drumm
      Amy: Do you know the percentage of soy to rubber/oil base in the ink? From what I understand, the replacement with soy is not 100%. Heidrun ... Heidrun
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 7, 2007
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        Amy:

        Do you know the percentage of soy to rubber/oil base in the ink? From what I understand, the replacement with soy is not 100%.

        Heidrun

        -----Original Message-----
        >From: amy borezo <aborezo@...>
        >Sent: Jul 6, 2007 4:44 PM
        >To: No Reply <notify-dg-PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
        >Cc: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [PPLetterpress] Soy update
        >
        >Hello,
        >
        >I spoke with someone at Gans who says that the soybeans from which they make
        >their soy ink are domestically grown. He also mentioned that the push for
        >creating vegetable oil inks stems from an effort to lower VOC emissions.
        >
        >very best,
        >amy b.
        >shelter/Books
        >www.shelterbookworks.com
        >
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >


        ----------------------------------------------------------------
        Heidrun Mumper-Drumm + Design and Letterpress
        drummbeat@...
      • amy borezo
        Heidrun, I do not know the percentage of soy oil in the ink. It does appear to be a blend. The people at Gans are extremely helpful if you want to give them a
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 8, 2007
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          Heidrun,

          I do not know the percentage of soy oil in the ink. It does appear to be a
          blend. The people at Gans are extremely helpful if you want to give them a
          call.

          There is definitely more research to be done. I'm finding out little bits at
          a time and would like to continue to do so. It would certainly be
          interesting to examine the "hidden costs", if there indeed are any, of using
          soy inks. I suppose no one can assume anything until the research has been
          done.

          It is a fact that soy inks contain less VOCs, 1-3%. This is not only a labor
          issue, but an environmental issue, when you consider that the printing
          industry uses 2 billion pounds of ink per year. (source
          http://www.flintgrp.com/InkBackgrounder.pdf). Is that fact balanced out by
          some other detrimental effect to people and the environment? I don't know
          yet, but I will be doing more research.

          amy borezo
          shelter/Books
          www.shelterbooks.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • heidrun mumper-drumm
          If you do find out the percentage, please let me know. I do know that having as little as 10% soy allows the industry to state soy-based inks, which then
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 9, 2007
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            If you do find out the percentage, please let me know. I do know that having as little as 10% soy allows the industry to state 'soy-based inks,' which then qualifies as 'green washing' to my mind.

            Heidrun

            -----Original Message-----
            >From: amy borezo <aborezo@...>
            >Sent: Jul 8, 2007 7:58 AM
            >To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Soy update
            >
            >Heidrun,
            >
            >I do not know the percentage of soy oil in the ink. It does appear to be a
            >blend. The people at Gans are extremely helpful if you want to give them a
            >call.
            >
            >There is definitely more research to be done. I'm finding out little bits at
            >a time and would like to continue to do so. It would certainly be
            >interesting to examine the "hidden costs", if there indeed are any, of using
            >soy inks. I suppose no one can assume anything until the research has been
            >done.
            >
            >It is a fact that soy inks contain less VOCs, 1-3%. This is not only a labor
            >issue, but an environmental issue, when you consider that the printing
            >industry uses 2 billion pounds of ink per year. (source
            >http://www.flintgrp.com/InkBackgrounder.pdf). Is that fact balanced out by
            >some other detrimental effect to people and the environment? I don't know
            >yet, but I will be doing more research.
            >
            >amy borezo
            >shelter/Books
            >www.shelterbooks.com
            >
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
          • Gerald Lange
            Heidrun This was at the top of the list when I Googled soybean ink percentage: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3065/is_n10-11_v21/ai_13633194/pg_2
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 9, 2007
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              Heidrun

              This was at the top of the list when I Googled soybean ink percentage:

              http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3065/is_n10-11_v21/ai_13633194/pg_2

              Gerald



              In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, heidrun mumper-drumm <drummbeat@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > If you do find out the percentage, please let me know. I do know
              that having as little as 10% soy allows the industry to state
              'soy-based inks,' which then qualifies as 'green washing' to my mind.
              >
              > Heidrun
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > >From: amy borezo <aborezo@...>
              > >Sent: Jul 8, 2007 7:58 AM
              > >To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
              > >Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Soy update
              > >
              > >Heidrun,
              > >
              > >I do not know the percentage of soy oil in the ink. It does appear
              to be a
              > >blend. The people at Gans are extremely helpful if you want to give
              them a
              > >call.
              > >
              > >There is definitely more research to be done. I'm finding out
              little bits at
              > >a time and would like to continue to do so. It would certainly be
              > >interesting to examine the "hidden costs", if there indeed are any,
              of using
              > >soy inks. I suppose no one can assume anything until the research
              has been
              > >done.
              > >
              > >It is a fact that soy inks contain less VOCs, 1-3%. This is not
              only a labor
              > >issue, but an environmental issue, when you consider that the printing
              > >industry uses 2 billion pounds of ink per year. (source
              > >http://www.flintgrp.com/InkBackgrounder.pdf). Is that fact balanced
              out by
              > >some other detrimental effect to people and the environment? I
              don't know
              > >yet, but I will be doing more research.
              > >
              > >amy borezo
              > >shelter/Books
              > >www.shelterbooks.com
              > >
              > >
              > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Peter Fraterdeus
              Hi Gerald, all, ... I went to this site, and was immediately confronted by a pop-up Safari dialog box claiming that my computer needed to be Cleaned (I had
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 9, 2007
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                Hi Gerald, all,

                At 4:45 PM +0000 9 07 07, Gerald Lange wrote:
                >Heidrun
                >
                >This was at the top of the list when I Googled soybean ink percentage:
                >
                >http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3065/is_n10-11_v21/ai_13633194/pg_2


                I went to this site, and was immediately confronted by a "pop-up" Safari dialog box claiming that my computer needed to be "Cleaned" (I had turned off the pop-up blocker, as I'm a developer, I need to see these sometimes)

                Unlikely...

                Although it's unlikely that ErrClean would affect a Mac (unless it was running Windoze of course), rather than risk the fact that it ignores the Cancel button, I force-quit Safari

                Here's the scoop on ErrClean if others run into the problem:

                http://www.enigmasoftware.com/support/spyhunter-threat-database-update-498/
                """
                ErrClean
                ErrClean is a fake system repair utility that is often downloaded and installed by a Trojan or through browser security holes. ErrClean will also display notifications of imaginary security risks in its attempts to get the user to purchase the full version. This program can be extremely difficult to remove manually, and will continue to try to recreate itself.
                """

                It may not need saying, but I will do so anyway.
                Don't ever take candy from strangers, or let an unknown application have access to your hard-disk.
                Also, if it sounds too good to be true, it is.

                ;-)

                Cheers
                PF

                --
                AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!

                Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
                Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography

                -:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*-:-*

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                Galena, Illinois http://www.alphabets.com
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              • Gerald Lange
                Heidrun In reading through that list from the search I d recommend downloading the PDF Biochemicals for the Printing Industry. This has percentages listed.
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 9, 2007
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                  Heidrun

                  In reading through that list from the search I'd recommend downloading
                  the PDF "Biochemicals for the Printing Industry." This has percentages
                  listed.

                  My limited experience with soy inks has not been all that
                  satisfactory. I can't get the quality of presswork that I've
                  experienced with other inks—I suspect that this has something to do
                  with the carrier to pigment ratio in the blacks. Nor does soy ink seem
                  to respond well with traditional additives, such as magnesium
                  carbonate. Also, since it is considered more biodegradable than
                  traditional inks I wonder about its longevity. Plus, it's a bit
                  unnerving that the stuff can be washed off your hands with plain soap
                  and water!!!

                  Gerald

                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Heidrun
                  >
                  > This was at the top of the list when I Googled soybean ink percentage:
                  >
                  >
                  http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3065/is_n10-11_v21/ai_13633194/pg_2
                  >
                  > Gerald
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, heidrun mumper-drumm <drummbeat@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > If you do find out the percentage, please let me know. I do know
                  > that having as little as 10% soy allows the industry to state
                  > 'soy-based inks,' which then qualifies as 'green washing' to my mind.
                  > >
                  > > Heidrun
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > >From: amy borezo <aborezo@>
                  > > >Sent: Jul 8, 2007 7:58 AM
                  > > >To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Soy update
                  > > >
                  > > >Heidrun,
                  > > >
                  > > >I do not know the percentage of soy oil in the ink. It does appear
                  > to be a
                  > > >blend. The people at Gans are extremely helpful if you want to give
                  > them a
                  > > >call.
                  > > >
                  > > >There is definitely more research to be done. I'm finding out
                  > little bits at
                  > > >a time and would like to continue to do so. It would certainly be
                  > > >interesting to examine the "hidden costs", if there indeed are any,
                  > of using
                  > > >soy inks. I suppose no one can assume anything until the research
                  > has been
                  > > >done.
                  > > >
                  > > >It is a fact that soy inks contain less VOCs, 1-3%. This is not
                  > only a labor
                  > > >issue, but an environmental issue, when you consider that the
                  printing
                  > > >industry uses 2 billion pounds of ink per year. (source
                  > > >http://www.flintgrp.com/InkBackgrounder.pdf). Is that fact balanced
                  > out by
                  > > >some other detrimental effect to people and the environment? I
                  > don't know
                  > > >yet, but I will be doing more research.
                  > > >
                  > > >amy borezo
                  > > >shelter/Books
                  > > >www.shelterbooks.com
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • heidrun mumper-drumm
                  I would agree with you. Making sure that I, and any letterpress or offset printer I use, uses the ink [oil or rubber base] efficiently [minimize waste] and
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 9, 2007
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                    I would agree with you. Making sure that I, and any letterpress or offset printer I use, uses the ink [oil or rubber base] efficiently [minimize waste] and thoroughly [use up the can] is more important than just some soy content.

                    Heidrun

                    -----Original Message-----
                    >From: Gerald Lange <Bieler@...>
                    >Sent: Jul 9, 2007 10:32 AM
                    >To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Soy update
                    >
                    >Heidrun
                    >
                    >In reading through that list from the search I'd recommend downloading
                    >the PDF "Biochemicals for the Printing Industry." This has percentages
                    >listed.
                    >
                    >My limited experience with soy inks has not been all that
                    >satisfactory. I can't get the quality of presswork that I've
                    >experienced with other inks—I suspect that this has something to do
                    >with the carrier to pigment ratio in the blacks. Nor does soy ink seem
                    >to respond well with traditional additives, such as magnesium
                    >carbonate. Also, since it is considered more biodegradable than
                    >traditional inks I wonder about its longevity. Plus, it's a bit
                    >unnerving that the stuff can be washed off your hands with plain soap
                    >and water!!!
                    >
                    >Gerald
                    >
                    >--- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Heidrun
                    >>
                    >> This was at the top of the list when I Googled soybean ink percentage:
                    >>
                    >>
                    >http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3065/is_n10-11_v21/ai_13633194/pg_2
                    >>
                    >> Gerald
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, heidrun mumper-drumm <drummbeat@>
                    >> wrote:
                    >> >
                    >> > If you do find out the percentage, please let me know. I do know
                    >> that having as little as 10% soy allows the industry to state
                    >> 'soy-based inks,' which then qualifies as 'green washing' to my mind.
                    >> >
                    >> > Heidrun
                    >> >
                    >> > -----Original Message-----
                    >> > >From: amy borezo <aborezo@>
                    >> > >Sent: Jul 8, 2007 7:58 AM
                    >> > >To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                    >> > >Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Soy update
                    >> > >
                    >> > >Heidrun,
                    >> > >
                    >> > >I do not know the percentage of soy oil in the ink. It does appear
                    >> to be a
                    >> > >blend. The people at Gans are extremely helpful if you want to give
                    >> them a
                    >> > >call.
                    >> > >
                    >> > >There is definitely more research to be done. I'm finding out
                    >> little bits at
                    >> > >a time and would like to continue to do so. It would certainly be
                    >> > >interesting to examine the "hidden costs", if there indeed are any,
                    >> of using
                    >> > >soy inks. I suppose no one can assume anything until the research
                    >> has been
                    >> > >done.
                    >> > >
                    >> > >It is a fact that soy inks contain less VOCs, 1-3%. This is not
                    >> only a labor
                    >> > >issue, but an environmental issue, when you consider that the
                    >printing
                    >> > >industry uses 2 billion pounds of ink per year. (source
                    >> > >http://www.flintgrp.com/InkBackgrounder.pdf). Is that fact balanced
                    >> out by
                    >> > >some other detrimental effect to people and the environment? I
                    >> don't know
                    >> > >yet, but I will be doing more research.
                    >> > >
                    >> > >amy borezo
                    >> > >shelter/Books
                    >> > >www.shelterbooks.com
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> >
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Gerald Lange
                    Actually, I ve not found any studies that indicate that soy-based ink is compatible with the letterpress process. With the legislation that has been passed and
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 9, 2007
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                      Actually, I've not found any studies that indicate that soy-based ink
                      is compatible with the letterpress process. With the legislation that
                      has been passed and is pending, I wonder how long some of the older
                      and trusted inks will be available. The push toward safer working
                      conditions and concern for the environment, while admirable, doesn't
                      necessarily translate into better materials for manufacturing processes.

                      There were some studies a long while back on the chemical analysis of
                      the ink used in Gutenberg's printed work. Apparently, he took the
                      secret of it to his grave as even the subsequent printed work of Fust
                      and Schoeffer does not share the formula. The rich and enduring black
                      of the ink on the pages of the Gutenberg Bible is due to high
                      concentration of lead, presumably lead carbonate (white lead). This is
                      a highly toxic substance now banned to some extent in the manufacture
                      of paint and volatile products, though still considered a qualitative
                      ingredient.

                      As an aside: I have a book from 1909 titled The Lead and Zinc Pigments
                      that details the manufacture of white lead with many photos of the
                      processes. Those factory conditions are truly frightening, the workers
                      literally lived and breathed the stuff, no gloves, no masks; even a
                      photo of a proudly posed woman gathering the material in bare feet.
                      We've come a very long way from that.

                      Gerald

                      >
                      > I would agree with you. Making sure that I, and any letterpress or
                      offset printer I use, uses the ink [oil or rubber base] efficiently
                      [minimize waste] and thoroughly [use up the can] is more important
                      than just some soy content.
                      >
                      > Heidrun
                      >

                      > >
                      > >My limited experience with soy inks has not been all that
                      > >satisfactory. I can't get the quality of presswork that I've
                      > >experienced with other inksâ€"I suspect that this has something to do
                      > >with the carrier to pigment ratio in the blacks. Nor does soy ink seem
                      > >to respond well with traditional additives, such as magnesium
                      > >carbonate. Also, since it is considered more biodegradable than
                      > >traditional inks I wonder about its longevity. Plus, it's a bit
                      > >unnerving that the stuff can be washed off your hands with plain soap
                      > >and water!!!
                      > >
                      > >Gerald
                    • amy borezo
                      I hope one day (soon) to do a side by side comparison of soy ink with other inks. A few days ago I looked up soy on the letpress archives to see if anyone had
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 10, 2007
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                        I hope one day (soon) to do a side by side comparison of soy ink with other
                        inks.

                        A few days ago I looked up soy on the letpress archives to see if anyone had
                        any printing complaints and I didn't find any.

                        It's not surprising, for many reasons, that no "studies" have been done of
                        soy's compatibility with letterpress, thus far.

                        amy
                        shelter/Books
                        www.shelterbookworks.com


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