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Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: color/ink question

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  • Gerald Lange
    Taylor Rives needs to be dampened. But how are you dampening it? Spritzing isn t the best way. To print solids they should be isolated by the form and
    Message 1 of 12 , May 13, 2007
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      Taylor

      Rives needs to be dampened. But how are you dampening it? Spritzing
      isn't the best way.

      To print solids they should be isolated by the form and preferably by
      edition run. Generally you would need to add several "trips" to your ink
      film laydown before print mode. Sometimes a double print. Setswell
      Compound is a very good additive. But I don't know what it is in it,
      which leads to. . .

      Toxic levels of ink? Oil based inks used to be made of linseed oil.
      Rubber based inks are synthetic petroleum products, they only use a bit
      of natural rubber as a "starter." Soybean is what is grown in the Amazon
      Rain Forest to replace the trees. But most inks today are hybrids, no
      matter what they are "-based on." If you are concerned about toxicity,
      and you probably should be, you really should not be printing. You can't
      make it "green."

      Gerald
      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

      taybarrett wrote:
      > I am using Arches Rives BFK 280 gsm paper for the most part other papers are similar to
      > this. It is 100% cotton. Yeah I have some oil base but I prefer to use the rubber as it is less
      > toxic etc.
      >
      > -Taylor
      >
      > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Scott Rubel <scott@...> wrote:
      >
      >> Are you using coated or glossy paper? Whatever you are doing, you may
      >> want to try oil base.
      >>
      >> Scott Rubel
      >> Invitesite
      >> 450 S. Raymond Ave.
      >> Pasadena, CA 91105
      >>
      >> On May 13, 2007, at 6:06 PM, taybarrett wrote:
      >>
      >>
      >>> Ok, now that I am back up and running I have another riddle. I am
      >>> using VanSon rubber
      >>> based inks and I often find that in the solid areas of color on my
      >>> printed pages the color is
      >>> dotted (looks like little pixels) instead of a solid even tone. It
      >>> is the worst when I am using a
      >>> mixed color that uses a lot of transparent white. Almost seems like
      >>> I am not getting a
      >>> thorough mix. I have tried dampening the paper thinking that the
      >>> ink wasn't being absorbed
      >>> well by the paper. This helped a bit but the dots are still there
      >>> upon close inspection. Any
      >>> ideas?
      >>>
      >>> Thanks, Taylor
      >>>
      >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Scott Rubel
      The greenest thing you can do in printing is to use the chemicals, materials and skills that make the job right the first time so you or your customers don t
      Message 2 of 12 , May 13, 2007
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        The greenest thing you can do in printing is to use the chemicals,
        materials and skills that make the job right the first time so you or
        your customers don't reject it and you have to print it a second
        time, thus wasting paper, ink, and cleaning fluid.

        After this, the best thing you can do is use tree-free papers, or
        (second best) recycled.

        "Green" is different from non-toxic. Lots of natural chemicals can
        kill you lots faster than anything you use in printing. I've had oil
        and rubber based ink on my hands for decades and I'm quite certain
        it's the customers who are really killing me, so don't worry about
        those things.

        Scott Rubel

        On May 13, 2007, at 6:59 PM, Gerald Lange wrote:

        > Taylor
        >
        > Rives needs to be dampened. But how are you dampening it? Spritzing
        > isn't the best way.
        >
        > To print solids they should be isolated by the form and preferably by
        > edition run. Generally you would need to add several "trips" to
        > your ink
        > film laydown before print mode. Sometimes a double print. Setswell
        > Compound is a very good additive. But I don't know what it is in it,
        > which leads to. . .
        >
        > Toxic levels of ink? Oil based inks used to be made of linseed oil.
        > Rubber based inks are synthetic petroleum products, they only use a
        > bit
        > of natural rubber as a "starter." Soybean is what is grown in the
        > Amazon
        > Rain Forest to replace the trees. But most inks today are hybrids, no
        > matter what they are "-based on." If you are concerned about toxicity,
        > and you probably should be, you really should not be printing. You
        > can't
        > make it "green."
        >
        > Gerald
        > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • splitflexi
        BFK is somewhat textured, IMO, and this is revealed when printing solids; loosen up your ink (maybe necessitating a separate press run). Maybe a tack reducer
        Message 3 of 12 , May 14, 2007
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          BFK is somewhat textured, IMO, and this is revealed when printing solids; loosen up your
          ink (maybe necessitating a separate press run). Maybe a tack reducer and a cautious
          increase in impression would help?

          How is rubber-based ink less toxic than oil? Is it a clean-up issue? Seems like they would
          be equally "bad," or not bad, as the case may be. Either way you're laying out a sticky film
          of oils and resins and varnishes that is going to need to be dissolved and mopped up at
          the end of the day. Personally, rubber-based creeps me out-- who knows what's in that
          stuff. You can get traditional linseed oil-based inks that contain no aromatic
          hydrocarbons, etc, maybe metallic dryers though. You could use mineral oil or veg oil to
          clean up --no problem. But, really, using a little mineral spirits in a well ventilated room
          with nitrile gloves on is pretty minor. With proper attention paid to ventilation while
          cleaning the press, I'd be more concerned about developing a sensitivity to offgassing
          acrylates from plates, maybe whatever toxic pigments I use, press ergonomics, what I had
          for lunch, and, er... lead.


          PS- Someone brought up "green"-ness. I'm not sure that was what you were getting at in
          your post, but that could be a whole other discussion. Let's face it, nothing we do is green.
          Greenest thing you could do is close down your shop, start farming and dumpster-diving,
          and check out of the US economy.

          Ok, short of that, make your operation energy efficient with compact flourescents, motion
          sensors, etc. Ditch that old motor on your C&P for a modern, efficient model. Ride your
          bike to the shop. Try not to waste ink. Where do your inks, paper, and plates come from,
          and how far do they travel? Do you use a computer? Do you really need to? Who are your
          customers, where do they live, and where does their money come from? What impact does
          recycled paper really have? Is photopolymer sustainable, or greener than lead? Has anyone
          bothered to calculate the environmental footprint of their letterpress endeavours?

          Duncan Dempster
          Honolulu, Hawaii



          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "taybarrett" <taylor@...> wrote:
          >
          > I am using Arches Rives BFK 280 gsm paper for the most part other papers are similar to
          > this. It is 100% cotton. Yeah I have some oil base but I prefer to use the rubber as it is
          less
          > toxic etc.
          >
          > -Taylor
          >
          > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Scott Rubel <scott@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Are you using coated or glossy paper? Whatever you are doing, you may
          > > want to try oil base.
          > >
          > > Scott Rubel
          > > Invitesite
          > > 450 S. Raymond Ave.
          > > Pasadena, CA 91105
          > >
          > > On May 13, 2007, at 6:06 PM, taybarrett wrote:
          > >
          > > > Ok, now that I am back up and running I have another riddle. I am
          > > > using VanSon rubber
          > > > based inks and I often find that in the solid areas of color on my
          > > > printed pages the color is
          > > > dotted (looks like little pixels) instead of a solid even tone. It
          > > > is the worst when I am using a
          > > > mixed color that uses a lot of transparent white. Almost seems like
          > > > I am not getting a
          > > > thorough mix. I have tried dampening the paper thinking that the
          > > > ink wasn't being absorbed
          > > > well by the paper. This helped a bit but the dots are still there
          > > > upon close inspection. Any
          > > > ideas?
          > > >
          > > > Thanks, Taylor
          > > >
          > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
        • nagraph1
          It is simple enough to get the MSDS sheets for what ever ink being used and those will tell you what s in the ink chemically and what components are health
          Message 4 of 12 , May 14, 2007
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            It is simple enough to get the MSDS sheets for what ever ink being
            used and those will tell you what's in the ink chemically and what
            components are health issues. Any ink maker is required to furnish
            these upon request. There is no safe or green ink that I am aware of
            and the nasty stuff, like chrome yellow, has been eliminated from
            ink for a long time, though it can be in older inks still on the
            shelves from 30 and 40 years ago, but prudent use of even those
            shouldn't be a problem. The stuff has to be ingested or absorbed
            through the skin to be a problem--what is smelled are the solvents,
            and if that's a concern, have some ventilation.

            Fritz



            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "splitflexi" <dempster@...>
            wrote:
            >
            >> How is rubber-based ink less toxic than oil? Is it a clean-up
            issue? Seems like they would
            > be equally "bad," or not bad, as the case may be. Either way
            you're laying out a sticky film
            > of oils and resins and varnishes that is going to need to be
            dissolved and mopped up at
            > the end of the day. Personally, rubber-based creeps me out-- who
            knows what's in that
            > stuff. You can get traditional linseed oil-based inks that contain
            no aromatic
            > hydrocarbons, etc, maybe metallic dryers though. You could use
            mineral oil or veg oil to
            > clean up --no problem. But, really, using a little mineral spirits
            in a well ventilated room
            > with nitrile gloves on is pretty minor. With proper attention paid
            to ventilation while
            > cleaning the press, I'd be more concerned about developing a
            sensitivity to offgassing
            > acrylates from plates, maybe whatever toxic pigments I use, press
            ergonomics, what I had
            > for lunch, and, er... lead.
            >
            >
            > PS- Someone brought up "green"-ness. I'm not sure that was what
            you were getting at in
            > your post, but that could be a whole other discussion. Let's face
            it, nothing we do is green.
            > Greenest thing you could do is close down your shop, start farming
            and dumpster-diving,
            > and check out of the US economy.
            >
            >
          • taybarrett
            Without getting too far off topic, I will explain myself a little more. When I decided to buy rubber based inks I did so because I was pregnant. I called
            Message 5 of 12 , May 14, 2007
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              Without getting too far off topic, I will explain myself a little more. When I decided to buy
              rubber based inks I did so because I was pregnant. I called VanSon and asked their opinion of
              which inks were safest to use. I wanted to have quick clean ups while using as little solvent as
              possible... over exposure to solvents has been proven to cause fetal alchohol syndrome (see
              March of Dimes). I mainly used crisco or vegetable oil during this time. The rubber based ink
              cleaned up faster with the veggie oil the oil based ink took a lot more time. But none the less
              I still wore gloves when touching the ink and a chemical mask if I had to use solvents. Call
              me paranoid but being my first child I was extra worried I just didn't want to do anything I
              would regret while still being able to print during those ten months. That said I will probably
              be just as cautious the second time around as I have been blessed with a happy healthy boy. I
              can assure you, though I try to be "green", that was not what was motivating my decisions.

              I have looked back through my print jobs and have found little pattern some print jobs came
              out without the speckles and some with. Maybe too much ink on the rollers? I have noticed it
              mainly on prints that are red, orange, yellow or pink (though not all) I have never had the
              problem with blues, greens, black... coincidence? I am still leaning towards it having
              something to do with transparent white.

              Thanks, Taylor
              www.bellegraphique.net
            • Scott Rubel
              Nice web site and good work. By all means wear gloves, especially when pregnant. Other than this, I still never had that problem and don t know what to do to
              Message 6 of 12 , May 14, 2007
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                Nice web site and good work.

                By all means wear gloves, especially when pregnant. Other than this, I
                still never had that problem and don't know what to do to solve it.

                --Scott

                taybarrett wrote:

                >Without getting too far off topic, I will explain myself a little more. When I decided to buy
                >rubber based inks I did so because I was pregnant. I called VanSon and asked their opinion of
                >which inks were safest to use. I wanted to have quick clean ups while using as little solvent as
                >possible... over exposure to solvents has been proven to cause fetal alchohol syndrome (see
                >March of Dimes). I mainly used crisco or vegetable oil during this time. The rubber based ink
                >cleaned up faster with the veggie oil the oil based ink took a lot more time. But none the less
                >I still wore gloves when touching the ink and a chemical mask if I had to use solvents. Call
                >me paranoid but being my first child I was extra worried I just didn't want to do anything I
                >would regret while still being able to print during those ten months. That said I will probably
                >be just as cautious the second time around as I have been blessed with a happy healthy boy. I
                >can assure you, though I try to be "green", that was not what was motivating my decisions.
                >
                >I have looked back through my print jobs and have found little pattern some print jobs came
                >out without the speckles and some with. Maybe too much ink on the rollers? I have noticed it
                >mainly on prints that are red, orange, yellow or pink (though not all) I have never had the
                >problem with blues, greens, black... coincidence? I am still leaning towards it having
                >something to do with transparent white.
                >
                >Thanks, Taylor
                >www.bellegraphique.net
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Halton
                Hi Taylor, A lot of folks prefer rubber base because it won t ruin rollers if left on press for extended periods. If you get advice from the over 40
                Message 7 of 12 , May 14, 2007
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                  Hi Taylor, A lot of folks prefer rubber base because
                  it won't ruin rollers if left on press for extended
                  periods. If you get advice from the "over 40
                  years-in-printing guys" you will hear "Real Printers
                  Never Use Rubber Base" and it comes as a shock. In my
                  typography biz in the 60s 70s & 80s we used Van Son
                  10850 rubber base black for repro proofs on the
                  Vandercooks. We also washed the presses every 4 hours
                  to keep them free from paper lint etc. Today, I
                  prefer to use "wax-free" soy-based oil inks from
                  Western Prtg Ink in SF for both offset and letterpress
                  work, and at times we foil-stamp over the ink. Wax is
                  in most oil inks for rub resistance and durability.
                  Foil won't adhere to a wax ink. Another reason . . .
                  wax-free because ink with wax can reconstitute under
                  the fusing temperature of a laser printer (and rubber
                  base can actually soften and smear) in laser printers.
                  You might try Spinks Acrylic Black as a subsitute for
                  Rubber base. It has similar characteristics as rubber
                  base for extended periods and for easy cleaning. If
                  you order from Western tell 'em its for letterpress
                  and they will probably use a suitable formula. P.S.
                  Kelly Paper was giving away free samples of Spinks
                  Acrylic a while back.
                  Joe Halton
                  --- taybarrett <taylor@...> wrote:

                  > Ok, now that I am back up and running I have another
                  > riddle. I am using VanSon rubber
                  > based inks and I often find that in the solid areas
                  > of color on my printed pages the color is
                  > dotted (looks like little pixels) instead of a solid
                  > even tone. It is the worst when I am using a
                  > mixed color that uses a lot of transparent white.
                  > Almost seems like I am not getting a
                  > thorough mix. I have tried dampening the paper
                  > thinking that the ink wasn't being absorbed
                  > well by the paper. This helped a bit but the dots
                  > are still there upon close inspection. Any
                  > ideas?
                  >
                  > Thanks, Taylor
                  >
                  >



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                  http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
                • Halton
                  CORRECTION . . . I mentioned Spinks samples from Kelly Paper ...wrong! Should be Paper Plus Stores, a div. of Unisource. Mea culpa, Joe Halton ...
                  Message 8 of 12 , May 14, 2007
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                    CORRECTION . . . I mentioned Spinks samples from Kelly
                    Paper ...wrong! Should be Paper Plus Stores, a div. of
                    Unisource.
                    Mea culpa, Joe Halton
                    --- Halton <haltonprinting@...> wrote:

                    > Hi Taylor, A lot of folks prefer rubber base
                    > because
                    > it won't ruin rollers if left on press for extended
                    > periods. If you get advice from the "over 40
                    > years-in-printing guys" you will hear "Real Printers
                    > Never Use Rubber Base" and it comes as a shock. In
                    > my
                    > typography biz in the 60s 70s & 80s we used Van Son
                    > 10850 rubber base black for repro proofs on the
                    > Vandercooks. We also washed the presses every 4
                    > hours
                    > to keep them free from paper lint etc. Today, I
                    > prefer to use "wax-free" soy-based oil inks from
                    > Western Prtg Ink in SF for both offset and
                    > letterpress
                    > work, and at times we foil-stamp over the ink. Wax
                    > is
                    > in most oil inks for rub resistance and durability.
                    > Foil won't adhere to a wax ink. Another reason . . .
                    > wax-free because ink with wax can reconstitute under
                    > the fusing temperature of a laser printer (and
                    > rubber
                    > base can actually soften and smear) in laser
                    > printers.
                    > You might try Spinks Acrylic Black as a subsitute
                    > for
                    > Rubber base. It has similar characteristics as
                    > rubber
                    > base for extended periods and for easy cleaning. If
                    > you order from Western tell 'em its for letterpress
                    > and they will probably use a suitable formula.
                    > P.S.
                    > Kelly Paper was giving away free samples of Spinks
                    > Acrylic a while back.
                    > Joe Halton
                    > --- taybarrett <taylor@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Ok, now that I am back up and running I have
                    > another
                    > > riddle. I am using VanSon rubber
                    > > based inks and I often find that in the solid
                    > areas
                    > > of color on my printed pages the color is
                    > > dotted (looks like little pixels) instead of a
                    > solid
                    > > even tone. It is the worst when I am using a
                    > > mixed color that uses a lot of transparent white.
                    > > Almost seems like I am not getting a
                    > > thorough mix. I have tried dampening the paper
                    > > thinking that the ink wasn't being absorbed
                    > > well by the paper. This helped a bit but the dots
                    > > are still there upon close inspection. Any
                    > > ideas?
                    > >
                    > > Thanks, Taylor
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    ____________________________________________________________________________________Pinpoint
                    > customers who are looking for what you sell.
                    > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
                    >



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                  • amy borezo
                    I did a quick search of the archives at letpress list and there were a few posts reporting splotchy or mottled ink coverage associated with trans. white. No
                    Message 9 of 12 , May 15, 2007
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                      I did a quick search of the archives at letpress list and there were a few
                      posts reporting splotchy or mottled ink coverage associated with trans.
                      white. No definitive answer seemed to be offered up, but there were many
                      suggestions.

                      A lovely thread on inking was posted at Vanderblog recently, too. Of special
                      note was the desired stiffness of ink and the multiple passes often used
                      when printing large solids.

                      I still like soy inks for the low VOCs but will be trying some stone litho
                      inks soon to see how they compare for quality.

                      Please let us all know if and how you figure out your dots in solid areas
                      conundrum.

                      amy
                      shelter/books
                      www.shelterbookworks.com


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