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Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Plastic Plates Curling...

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  • wa0dfw@copper.net
    Kinda normal out here!
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 5, 2007
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      Kinda normal out here!

      >With relative humidity hovering between 15% and 20% in the northeast,
    • Harold Kyle
      Gerald, As I understand it, you re right in theory. When processed correctly and stored at 50% relative humidity (and kept out of excessive ultraviolet light)
      Message 2 of 27 , Feb 6, 2007
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        Gerald,

        As I understand it, you're right in theory. When processed correctly
        and stored at 50% relative humidity (and kept out of excessive
        ultraviolet light) afterwards, the plate will have its stated
        hardness. Once the environmental variables change (when the plate is
        sent out into the world), though, the plate can continue to harden.
        Leave a 152SB plate in an LA window sill and next week it will be so
        brittle that a slight flex in the plate can cause it to crack . This
        plate has gone beyond the hardness intended for it because of excess
        UV. The same can happen with plates that become excessively dry.

        The simple solution to this issue is to bag the plates and make sure
        they're out of light. Don't leave them out longer than necessary and
        remoisten them if they curl.

        In thinking this morning about John's suggestion of drying the plate
        longer, I realized this is a good suggestion during the Iowa summer.
        The humid weather then requires a longer (or hotter) drying to expel
        the right amount of moisture. I wonder, John, if you find yourself
        using a longer dry time more frequently in winter or in summer?

        Thanks,
        Harold


        On Feb 5, 2007, at 9:18 PM, Gerald Lange wrote:

        > One isn't hardening a plate through curing, that is
        > to say, one cannot increase or decrease the hardness through the
        > process. It is simply being brought to state.

        Harold Kyle
        Boxcar Press
        501 W. Fayette St. #222 ~ Syracuse, NY 13204
        315-473-0930 phone ~ 315-473-0967 fax
        http://www.boxcarpress.com
      • Daniel Morris
        Harold and list, Thanks for all the time you have taken to consider what my problems here might be. Having all this information I now feel my problems are due
        Message 3 of 27 , Feb 6, 2007
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          Harold and list,
          Thanks for all the time you have taken to consider what my problems here might be. Having all this information I now feel my problems are due to a combination of things. I am using a thick plate (KF152) which Harold tells me has a higher tendancy to curl than their standard plate material and, being unaware of this tendancy, I have ganged together multiple pieces of artwork without allowing an expansive/expensive border in negative space to fight against the curling tendancy of this plate material in type high areas.
          When I mounted my plates and left them on the base overnight they were curling away from the adhesive by the next morning.
          When I went to print, the edges of the dead areas were raised enough to come into contact with the rollers and were therefore being inked and ghosting on the sheet on the print stroke. My quick and dirty solution was to trim even more of these
          dead areas away in order to prevent them from printing. This seems to
          be working okay, but I have noticed just a tiny bit of plate creep because so much of the plate isn't properly adhered to the base until the moment it is impressed.
          Because my studio is too large to keep it climate controlled overnight, I will try Harold's suggestion of placing a moist towel over the plate on the base and I will put weight on top of it until I arrive the next day to print again.
          Thanks again for all the suggestions. I still have 600 more impressions to do with these plates so I'll get back to cranking.

          Daniel Morris
          The Arm Letterpress
          Brooklyn, NY


          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Harold Kyle <harold@...>
          To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, February 5, 2007 2:30:18 PM
          Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Plastic Plates Curling...













          Dan:



          I'm sorry to hear the problems you're having with the plates. I wish

          I could have responded earlier, but the heavy snow here left us short-

          staffed and I didn't get a chance to write earlier. Feel free to call

          us directly with any concerns about our plates when they happen!



          The cold shouldn't affect the plates, but the dryness of the winter

          weather will cause the plates to curl. When the plates dry out, their

          surface hardens and tends to curl inward, especially on large solids

          on the KF152 plates. Thinner plastic-backed plates (like our 94FL)

          don't tend to have this problem, nor will plates with ligher

          coverage. This problem tends to flare up in the winter when the air

          is dry for many of our customers. Usually the impression of the press

          flattens the plate, but in your case it sounds like the plate isn't

          sticking at all.



          There are two steps to prevent this problem:

          * Humidity helps. Run a humidifier in your shop in winter to make

          sure the plates aren't losing moisture.

          * Keep your plates bagged (to keep the plates in constant humidity)

          and out out light (to keep them from hardening).



          I have one solution that might get you through this run:

          * If your plates have hardened and curled, you can re-moisten them to

          make them more flexible. Since water will damage the adhesive, I

          recommend you place the plate polymer-side up on a flat surface and

          lay a wet towel on top. Let the plate sit, moistening, for five to

          ten minutes. You can then dry the plate by blotting it dry with a

          lint-free rag and following up with a hair drier. The plate should be

          more supple and flatten out when the press goes to impression.



          If you continue to have problems with your plate, give me a call. We

          guarantee the plates for six months after processing, so we can offer

          a replacement if you've stored your plates properly and still have

          this problem. This must be the order we shipped right before Christmas?



          Good luck, and let me know how you fare.



          Harold



          PS. I just talked with a customer whose base was so cold, she

          suspects the adhesive wasn't sticking well. The information on our

          adhesive doesn't have a temperature range, but it could be that the

          base is so cold that the rubber-based adhesive can't stick. This is

          conjecture, but maybe if you heated the base, it would be more

          receptive to the adhesive?

          I will try to follow up with the manufacturer about this question

          tomorrow.



          On Feb 3, 2007, at 8:22 PM, featherweightpress wrote:

          > have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates

          > and sheet adhesive

          > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the

          > base. What could cause

          > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I

          > have really heavy areas of

          > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it

          > up a bit will these things sit

          > flat?

          >

          > Daniel Morris

          > The Arm Letterpress

          > Brooklyn, NY

          >



          Harold Kyle

          Boxcar Press

          501 W. Fayette St. #222 ~ Syracuse, NY 13204

          315-473-0930 phone ~ 315-473-0967 fax

          http://www.boxcarpr ess.com














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        • typetom@aol.com
          In a message dated 2/6/2007, harold@boxcarpress.com writes: In thinking this morning about John s suggestion of drying the plate longer, I realized this is a
          Message 4 of 27 , Feb 6, 2007
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            In a message dated 2/6/2007, harold@... writes:

            In thinking this morning about John's suggestion of drying the plate
            longer, I realized this is a good suggestion during the Iowa summer.
            The humid weather then requires a longer (or hotter) drying to expel
            the right amount of moisture. I wonder, John, if you find yourself
            using a longer dry time more frequently in winter or in summer?



            I agree with John about drying time affecting curl. Here in Denver the air
            is normally so dry a plate seems to need almost no drying time. I discovered
            this is deceptive -- if I don't dry long enough, there is still moisture in
            the plate which eventually dries, which seems to cause the plate to curl since
            the surface shrinks more (or faster) than the sub-surface of the polymer.
            Additional drying time (which I do with a hand-held hair drier) seems to solve
            most of my curling problems.

            The exact timing needed will vary according to humidity -- my methods are
            somewhat impressionistic (or should I say learned by craft and experience),
            usually blow-drying the plate until it is almost too hot to hold, and then a
            little longer.... I also added a little additional post-exposure time, for what
            it's worth, which seems to me to dry the plate further and maybe fix it
            better in its original flat condition throughout the full depth of the polymer.

            Larger surfaces still seem more prone to curl, and long storage still
            results in a more brittle and often more curled plate. (I don't know if the brittle
            quality is a result of an increased "hardness" of the polymer as it is
            exposed to further UV, or dry air, or some other kind of deterioration in the
            polymer such as Gerald suggests happens because of Ozone). But the result is that
            I don't often reuse old plates, but save the negative and remake the plate.

            Seems to me these variations may be better recognized when making plates by
            hand, rather than by setting timers on a machine, but maybe that's my own
            preference for hand-work showing. I did have to learn that some of the timing
            measurements have to be mechanically and very precisely followed, especially
            exposure times for differing kinds of images, and washout time limits.

            (Regarding the extra exposure needed to preserve very fine lines and dots, I
            would say that the polymer is not getting "harder" but may be hardening
            further all the way to the base, which also allows sub-surface material to harden
            more widely than the surface image -- which will provide additional support
            and protection for the fine surface lines or dots. An opposite process is
            involved in determining exposure time needed for printing a reverse line in a
            solid surface -- too much exposure time will allow the sub-surface to harden
            and widen to over-fill the detail of the reverse, thus leaving it without
            enough relief for printing -- so this kind of image needs to be under-exposed to
            protect the fine details. These processes are a result of the fact that the UV
            light does not just enter the negative/plate in a directly vertical
            direction, but angles through the image in the negative and thus exposes a wider area
            below the surface, and thus can harden an expanding sub-surface area of
            polymer the longer it has the chance.)

            Best wishes, Tom

            Tom Parson
            Now It's Up To You Publications
            157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
            (303) 777-8951 home
            (720) 480-5358 cell phone
            http://members.aol.com/typetom


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Gerald Lange
            Tom I think this is fairly accurate. Don t know about exactly about the drying time thing or the humidity factor, nor have ever experienced the curling factor.
            Message 5 of 27 , Feb 7, 2007
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              Tom

              I think this is fairly accurate. Don't know about exactly about the
              drying time thing or the humidity factor, nor have ever experienced the
              curling factor. But I love the word "impressionistic" in this regard
              (applies to machine processing as well as hand processing, by the way).

              PP isn't voodoo, it's just a technical process. Thus, I'm confused about
              the thinking on drying in the thread. Drying just removes the moisture
              left over from washout and has nothing to do with the innards of the
              matrix. Water doesn't actually get into the polymer. And while moisture
              must be maintained at a certain rate to prolong the longevity of plates
              I suspect far too much is being made of this.

              Your description of the photopolymerization process is as on the mark as
              it gets except that during extended exposure the relief grows upward
              (shallower) as the molecular structure continues to grow and interlock
              (because of the extended UV exposure).

              I'm also thinking there is confusion (in the thread) over the term
              hardness as opposed to eventual loss of tack and resilience, resulting
              in brittleness. Post-exposure simply ensures complete
              photopolymerization of the subsurface relief (the surface is already
              stabilized); it is suggested that it can prolong deterioration but
              common practice would indicate not to reuse plates (as per your
              practice)—it has not seemed a beneficial practice to me as well. I
              suspect if one waits a month or so to print from plates, well, one has
              missed the window of optimum opportunity.

              Fresh, seems to be a fairly politically correct term these days. "Fresh
              plates are good for your printing"?

              Gerald
              http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



              typetom@... wrote:
              >
              > In a message dated 2/6/2007, harold@... writes:
              >
              > In thinking this morning about John's suggestion of drying the plate
              > longer, I realized this is a good suggestion during the Iowa summer.
              > The humid weather then requires a longer (or hotter) drying to expel
              > the right amount of moisture. I wonder, John, if you find yourself
              > using a longer dry time more frequently in winter or in summer?
              >
              >
              >
              > I agree with John about drying time affecting curl. Here in Denver the air
              > is normally so dry a plate seems to need almost no drying time. I discovered
              > this is deceptive -- if I don't dry long enough, there is still moisture in
              > the plate which eventually dries, which seems to cause the plate to curl since
              > the surface shrinks more (or faster) than the sub-surface of the polymer.
              > Additional drying time (which I do with a hand-held hair drier) seems to solve
              > most of my curling problems.
              >
              > The exact timing needed will vary according to humidity -- my methods are
              > somewhat impressionistic (or should I say learned by craft and experience),
              > usually blow-drying the plate until it is almost too hot to hold, and then a
              > little longer.... I also added a little additional post-exposure time, for what
              > it's worth, which seems to me to dry the plate further and maybe fix it
              > better in its original flat condition throughout the full depth of the polymer.
              >
              > Larger surfaces still seem more prone to curl, and long storage still
              > results in a more brittle and often more curled plate. (I don't know if the brittle
              > quality is a result of an increased "hardness" of the polymer as it is
              > exposed to further UV, or dry air, or some other kind of deterioration in the
              > polymer such as Gerald suggests happens because of Ozone). But the result is that
              > I don't often reuse old plates, but save the negative and remake the plate.
              >
              > Seems to me these variations may be better recognized when making plates by
              > hand, rather than by setting timers on a machine, but maybe that's my own
              > preference for hand-work showing. I did have to learn that some of the timing
              > measurements have to be mechanically and very precisely followed, especially
              > exposure times for differing kinds of images, and washout time limits.
              >
              > (Regarding the extra exposure needed to preserve very fine lines and dots, I
              > would say that the polymer is not getting "harder" but may be hardening
              > further all the way to the base, which also allows sub-surface material to harden
              > more widely than the surface image -- which will provide additional support
              > and protection for the fine surface lines or dots. An opposite process is
              > involved in determining exposure time needed for printing a reverse line in a
              > solid surface -- too much exposure time will allow the sub-surface to harden
              > and widen to over-fill the detail of the reverse, thus leaving it without
              > enough relief for printing -- so this kind of image needs to be under-exposed to
              > protect the fine details. These processes are a result of the fact that the UV
              > light does not just enter the negative/plate in a directly vertical
              > direction, but angles through the image in the negative and thus exposes a wider area
              > below the surface, and thus can harden an expanding sub-surface area of
              > polymer the longer it has the chance.)
              >
              > Best wishes, Tom
              >
              > Tom Parson
              > Now It's Up To You Publications
              > 157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
              > (303) 777-8951 home
              > (720) 480-5358 cell phone
              > http://members.aol.com/typetom
              >
              >
              >
            • John G. Henry
              I find the most curling in heavy solids and halftone images. I do think the humidity is my greatest difficulty. My shop is not air- conditioned, so I do have
              Message 6 of 27 , Feb 7, 2007
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                I find the most curling in heavy solids and halftone images. I do
                think the humidity is my greatest difficulty. My shop is not air-
                conditioned, so I do have some variations from winter to summer.

                Perhaps our California group members have a more stable environment
                so they do not notice the vargaries of moisture as it relates to
                photopolymer plate materials. It does seem that the plates are
                capable of some retention or loss of moisture after polymerization.

                John Henry

                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, typetom@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > In a message dated 2/6/2007, harold@... writes:
                >
                > In thinking this morning about John's suggestion of drying the
                plate
                > longer, I realized this is a good suggestion during the Iowa
                summer.
                > The humid weather then requires a longer (or hotter) drying to
                expel
                > the right amount of moisture. I wonder, John, if you find
                yourself
                > using a longer dry time more frequently in winter or in summer?
                >
                >
                >
                > I agree with John about drying time affecting curl. Here in
                Denver the air
                > is normally so dry a plate seems to need almost no drying time. I
                discovered
                > this is deceptive -- if I don't dry long enough, there is still
                moisture in
                > the plate which eventually dries, which seems to cause the plate
                to curl since
                > the surface shrinks more (or faster) than the sub-surface of the
                polymer.
                > Additional drying time (which I do with a hand-held hair drier)
                seems to solve
                > most of my curling problems.
                >
                > The exact timing needed will vary according to humidity -- my
                methods are
                > somewhat impressionistic (or should I say learned by craft and
                experience),
                > usually blow-drying the plate until it is almost too hot to hold,
                and then a
                > little longer.... I also added a little additional post-exposure
                time, for what
                > it's worth, which seems to me to dry the plate further and maybe
                fix it
                > better in its original flat condition throughout the full depth
                of the polymer.
                >
                > Larger surfaces still seem more prone to curl, and long storage
                still
                > results in a more brittle and often more curled plate. (I don't
                know if the brittle
                > quality is a result of an increased "hardness" of the polymer as
                it is
                > exposed to further UV, or dry air, or some other kind of
                deterioration in the
                > polymer such as Gerald suggests happens because of Ozone). But
                the result is that
                > I don't often reuse old plates, but save the negative and remake
                the plate.
                >
                > Seems to me these variations may be better recognized when making
                plates by
                > hand, rather than by setting timers on a machine, but maybe
                that's my own
                > preference for hand-work showing. I did have to learn that some
                of the timing
                > measurements have to be mechanically and very precisely followed,
                especially
                > exposure times for differing kinds of images, and washout time
                limits.
                >
                > (Regarding the extra exposure needed to preserve very fine lines
                and dots, I
                > would say that the polymer is not getting "harder" but may be
                hardening
                > further all the way to the base, which also allows sub-surface
                material to harden
                > more widely than the surface image -- which will provide
                additional support
                > and protection for the fine surface lines or dots. An opposite
                process is
                > involved in determining exposure time needed for printing a
                reverse line in a
                > solid surface -- too much exposure time will allow the sub-
                surface to harden
                > and widen to over-fill the detail of the reverse, thus leaving it
                without
                > enough relief for printing -- so this kind of image needs to be
                under-exposed to
                > protect the fine details. These processes are a result of the
                fact that the UV
                > light does not just enter the negative/plate in a directly
                vertical
                > direction, but angles through the image in the negative and thus
                exposes a wider area
                > below the surface, and thus can harden an expanding sub-surface
                area of
                > polymer the longer it has the chance.)
                >
                > Best wishes, Tom
                >
                > Tom Parson
                > Now It's Up To You Publications
                > 157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
                > (303) 777-8951 home
                > (720) 480-5358 cell phone
                > http://members.aol.com/typetom
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • chelsea parker
                hi- I own a c & p pilot press, and a few parts are needing to be replaced, along with the handle. The handle had been modified by the previous owner and I am
                Message 7 of 27 , Feb 7, 2007
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                  hi-

                  I own a c & p pilot press, and a few parts are needing to be replaced, along with the handle. The handle had been modified by the previous owner and I am wanting a regular style one for printing. I have tried many places off of briar press, but no one seems to return my emails or phone calls. Does anyone have any clue about where I could get a c & p pilot press handle? If anyone could help me it would be greatly appreciated.


                  Thanks so much.
                  cheers
                  -chelsea



                  ---------------------------------
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Gerald Lange
                  John It s plastic. Once cured, it s all downhill from there. Moisture is not retained by polymer, at best a certain threshold of moisture preserves its initial
                  Message 8 of 27 , Feb 8, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    John

                    It's plastic. Once cured, it's all downhill from there. Moisture is
                    not retained by polymer, at best a certain threshold of moisture
                    preserves its initial state in the short term. The molecular structure
                    of manufactured polymers, however, has not proven stable in the long term.

                    As much as the environmentalists condemn plastics, the
                    preservationists wring their hands about how to save them. The
                    Smithsonian can't keep astronaut suits from disintegrating much less
                    keep Barbie Dolls from leaching.

                    Gerald
                    http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



                    >
                    > Perhaps our California group members have a more stable environment
                    > so they do not notice the vargaries of moisture as it relates to
                    > photopolymer plate materials. It does seem that the plates are
                    > capable of some retention or loss of moisture after polymerization.
                    >
                    > John Henry
                    >
                  • Bethany Carter
                    Have you tried Don Black Linecasting in Canada? www.donblack.ca That s were I got my little Craftsman press (like a Pilot) but I m not sure if they sell
                    Message 9 of 27 , Feb 8, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Have you tried Don Black Linecasting in Canada? www.donblack.ca
                      That's were I got my little Craftsman press (like a Pilot) but I'm not sure
                      if they sell parts, it's worth a try though.

                      Good luck,

                      Bethany A. Carter


                      >From: chelsea parker <piecemeal.press@...>
                      >Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: [PPLetterpress] c & p pilot press handle- HELP
                      >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:00:01 -0800 (PST)
                      >
                      >hi-
                      >
                      >I own a c & p pilot press, and a few parts are needing to be replaced,
                      >along with the handle. The handle had been modified by the previous owner
                      >and I am wanting a regular style one for printing. I have tried many places
                      >off of briar press, but no one seems to return my emails or phone calls.
                      >Does anyone have any clue about where I could get a c & p pilot press
                      >handle? If anyone could help me it would be greatly appreciated.
                      >
                      >
                      >Thanks so much.
                      >cheers
                      >-chelsea
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Joe Ranneba
                      Hello... I am also looking for a Columbian #2 handle. This is very much like the Pilot handle meaning I could probably use a Pilot handle for this press. So,
                      Message 10 of 27 , Feb 9, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hello...

                        I am also looking for a Columbian #2 handle. This is very much like the
                        Pilot handle meaning I could probably use a Pilot handle for this
                        press. So, in other words, I am interested as well.

                        Thank you!


                        At 05:00 PM 2/7/2007, you wrote:

                        >hi-
                        >
                        >I own a c & p pilot press, and a few parts are needing to be replaced,
                        >along with the handle. The handle had been modified by the previous owner
                        >and I am wanting a regular style one for printing. I have tried many
                        >places off of briar press, but no one seems to return my emails or phone
                        >calls. Does anyone have any clue about where I could get a c & p pilot
                        >press handle? If anyone could help me it would be greatly appreciated.
                        >
                        >Thanks so much.
                        >cheers
                        >-chelsea
                        >
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                        Joseph Rannebarger
                        CITES Customer Service
                        Digital Computer Lab - Rm 1110
                        1304 W Springfield Ave
                        Urbana, IL 61801
                        217-333-1161


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