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Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Plastic Plates Curling...

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  • Daniel Morris
    John, That sounds exactly like what I am experiencing. I don t yet have facilities to process plates in house so I will have to speak to my platemaker about
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 5, 2007
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      John,
      That sounds exactly like what I am experiencing. I don't yet have facilities to process plates in house so I will have to speak to my platemaker about your recommendations. I suspect they are not accustomed to setting their machines to deal with such large areas of solid.

      Daniel Morris
      The Arm Letterpress
      Brooklyn, NY



      ----- Original Message ----
      From: John G. Henry <JohnH@...>
      To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, February 5, 2007 9:02:58 AM
      Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Plastic Plates Curling...













      Daniel:



      I also have experienced this curling in my plates at times. I

      resolved the problem by doubling up on both my drying time after

      washout, and the post exposure time. I think they were re-absorbing

      moisture (or drying out), changing the dimensions of the

      image areas, causing heavy solid areas to cup up and leaving the

      plate material curly as you describe.



      Try a longer dry, but not too high a temperature, and give them a

      long post exposure and see if that resolves your issues.



      John G. Henry

      Cedar Creek Press



      --- In PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com, "featherweightpress "

      <featherweightpress @...> wrote:

      >

      > I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates

      and sheet adhesive

      > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the

      base. What could cause

      > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I

      have really heavy areas of

      > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it

      up a bit will these things sit

      > flat?

      >

      > Daniel Morris

      > The Arm Letterpress

      > Brooklyn, NY

      >














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    • Harold Kyle
      Dan: I m sorry to hear the problems you re having with the plates. I wish I could have responded earlier, but the heavy snow here left us short- staffed and I
      Message 2 of 27 , Feb 5, 2007
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        Dan:

        I'm sorry to hear the problems you're having with the plates. I wish
        I could have responded earlier, but the heavy snow here left us short-
        staffed and I didn't get a chance to write earlier. Feel free to call
        us directly with any concerns about our plates when they happen!

        The cold shouldn't affect the plates, but the dryness of the winter
        weather will cause the plates to curl. When the plates dry out, their
        surface hardens and tends to curl inward, especially on large solids
        on the KF152 plates. Thinner plastic-backed plates (like our 94FL)
        don't tend to have this problem, nor will plates with ligher
        coverage. This problem tends to flare up in the winter when the air
        is dry for many of our customers. Usually the impression of the press
        flattens the plate, but in your case it sounds like the plate isn't
        sticking at all.

        There are two steps to prevent this problem:
        * Humidity helps. Run a humidifier in your shop in winter to make
        sure the plates aren't losing moisture.
        * Keep your plates bagged (to keep the plates in constant humidity)
        and out out light (to keep them from hardening).

        I have one solution that might get you through this run:
        * If your plates have hardened and curled, you can re-moisten them to
        make them more flexible. Since water will damage the adhesive, I
        recommend you place the plate polymer-side up on a flat surface and
        lay a wet towel on top. Let the plate sit, moistening, for five to
        ten minutes. You can then dry the plate by blotting it dry with a
        lint-free rag and following up with a hair drier. The plate should be
        more supple and flatten out when the press goes to impression.

        If you continue to have problems with your plate, give me a call. We
        guarantee the plates for six months after processing, so we can offer
        a replacement if you've stored your plates properly and still have
        this problem. This must be the order we shipped right before Christmas?

        Good luck, and let me know how you fare.

        Harold

        PS. I just talked with a customer whose base was so cold, she
        suspects the adhesive wasn't sticking well. The information on our
        adhesive doesn't have a temperature range, but it could be that the
        base is so cold that the rubber-based adhesive can't stick. This is
        conjecture, but maybe if you heated the base, it would be more
        receptive to the adhesive?
        I will try to follow up with the manufacturer about this question
        tomorrow.

        On Feb 3, 2007, at 8:22 PM, featherweightpress wrote:
        > have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates
        > and sheet adhesive
        > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the
        > base. What could cause
        > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I
        > have really heavy areas of
        > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it
        > up a bit will these things sit
        > flat?
        >
        > Daniel Morris
        > The Arm Letterpress
        > Brooklyn, NY
        >

        Harold Kyle
        Boxcar Press
        501 W. Fayette St. #222 ~ Syracuse, NY 13204
        315-473-0930 phone ~ 315-473-0967 fax
        http://www.boxcarpress.com
      • Harold Kyle
        John: With relative humidity hovering between 15% and 20% in the northeast, I don t think that reabsorption of moisture is possible! There just is none in the
        Message 3 of 27 , Feb 5, 2007
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          John:

          With relative humidity hovering between 15% and 20% in the northeast,
          I don't think that reabsorption of moisture is possible! There just
          is none in the air. In my experience, it's actually low humidity that
          exacerbates curling. I've confirmed this phenomenon with two of the
          plate manufacturers that we represent, and it bears out in the
          seasonal changes of our customers' print shops. Conversely, in the
          humid summer months, plates tend to be too moist. The best solution
          is to maintain (somewhat) constant humidity in your shop year round.

          Dan suggested our platemaker might not have been set up right for
          solids in his response to your message. I think I'll address that
          here. One thing we can to minimize curl is cut back on the exposures.
          This wasn't possible in this case because the artwork contained the
          equivalent of 4 point type in close proximity to the solid (this is
          the "healthy hot dog" text, Dan). Small point sizes need longer
          exposure to hold on the plate and to become hard enough to withstand
          printing. 4 point type is miniscule and approaches the minimum we can
          hold. It's a delicate balance between obtaining the detail/hardness
          required in the small lines without burning the plate to the point of
          curling. We always err on the side of detail, because curled plates
          usually flatten during printing. If the detail isn't there, though,
          it doesn't come back during printing!

          Bethany's tip of allowing a large border around the plate is a good
          one. Since I noticed that the solid area is at the plate edge, it may
          be that we trimmed the plate too close to the solid. I'm beginning to
          suspect this may be to blame. As I mentioned in my previous message,
          we're happy to remake any plates you feel weren't made right. Let me
          know if I can send a replacement for you to receive Wednesday.

          Harold


          On Feb 5, 2007, at 12:02 PM, John G. Henry wrote:

          > Daniel:
          >
          > I also have experienced this curling in my plates at times. I
          > resolved the problem by doubling up on both my drying time after
          > washout, and the post exposure time. I think they were re-absorbing
          > moisture (or drying out), changing the dimensions of the
          > image areas, causing heavy solid areas to cup up and leaving the
          > plate material curly as you describe.
          >
          > Try a longer dry, but not too high a temperature, and give them a
          > long post exposure and see if that resolves your issues.
          >
          > John G. Henry
          > Cedar Creek Press
          >
          > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "featherweightpress"
          > <featherweightpress@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates
          > and sheet adhesive
          > > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the
          > base. What could cause
          > > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I
          > have really heavy areas of
          > > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it
          > up a bit will these things sit
          > > flat?
          > >
          > > Daniel Morris
          > > The Arm Letterpress
          > > Brooklyn, NY
          > >
          >
          >
          >

          Harold Kyle
          Boxcar Press
          501 W. Fayette St. #222 ~ Syracuse, NY 13204
          315-473-0930 phone ~ 315-473-0967 fax
          http://www.boxcarpress.com
        • Gerald Lange
          Harold As far as I know plates have a stated hardness rating; once cured, that is their hardness. One isn t hardening a plate through curing, that is to say,
          Message 4 of 27 , Feb 5, 2007
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            Harold

            As far as I know plates have a stated hardness rating; once cured, that
            is their hardness. One isn't hardening a plate through curing, that is
            to say, one cannot increase or decrease the hardness through the
            process. It is simply being brought to state. It would be disastrous if
            this were not the case.

            I have no idea why plates would curl and rip away from the adhesive but
            I suspect that temperature as well as humidity could come into play. I
            do know that non-room temperature variance has an effect on exposure
            times. I haven't experienced this on press though.

            But I agree that putting a 4-pt text reverse on a solid is asking for a
            difficult time on press. It can be done but I'd warn here against using
            a delicately light serif face and/or composition that hasn't been
            significantly tracked out at that size. Plus there simply isn't enough
            relief (if exposed correctly, as you point out) and constant cleaning is
            required.

            Gerald
            http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

            Harold Kyle wrote:
            > John:
            >
            > With relative humidity hovering between 15% and 20% in the northeast,
            > I don't think that reabsorption of moisture is possible! There just
            > is none in the air. In my experience, it's actually low humidity that
            > exacerbates curling. I've confirmed this phenomenon with two of the
            > plate manufacturers that we represent, and it bears out in the
            > seasonal changes of our customers' print shops. Conversely, in the
            > humid summer months, plates tend to be too moist. The best solution
            > is to maintain (somewhat) constant humidity in your shop year round.
            >
            > Dan suggested our platemaker might not have been set up right for
            > solids in his response to your message. I think I'll address that
            > here. One thing we can to minimize curl is cut back on the exposures.
            > This wasn't possible in this case because the artwork contained the
            > equivalent of 4 point type in close proximity to the solid (this is
            > the "healthy hot dog" text, Dan). Small point sizes need longer
            > exposure to hold on the plate and to become hard enough to withstand
            > printing. 4 point type is miniscule and approaches the minimum we can
            > hold. It's a delicate balance between obtaining the detail/hardness
            > required in the small lines without burning the plate to the point of
            > curling. We always err on the side of detail, because curled plates
            > usually flatten during printing. If the detail isn't there, though,
            > it doesn't come back during printing!
            >
            > Bethany's tip of allowing a large border around the plate is a good
            > one. Since I noticed that the solid area is at the plate edge, it may
            > be that we trimmed the plate too close to the solid. I'm beginning to
            > suspect this may be to blame. As I mentioned in my previous message,
            > we're happy to remake any plates you feel weren't made right. Let me
            > know if I can send a replacement for you to receive Wednesday.
            >
            > Harold
            >
            >
            > On Feb 5, 2007, at 12:02 PM, John G. Henry wrote:
            >
            >
            >> Daniel:
            >>
            >> I also have experienced this curling in my plates at times. I
            >> resolved the problem by doubling up on both my drying time after
            >> washout, and the post exposure time. I think they were re-absorbing
            >> moisture (or drying out), changing the dimensions of the
            >> image areas, causing heavy solid areas to cup up and leaving the
            >> plate material curly as you describe.
            >>
            >> Try a longer dry, but not too high a temperature, and give them a
            >> long post exposure and see if that resolves your issues.
            >>
            >> John G. Henry
            >> Cedar Creek Press
            >>
            >> --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "featherweightpress"
            >> <featherweightpress@...> wrote:
            >>
            >>> I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates
            >>>
            >> and sheet adhesive
            >>
            >>> backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the
            >>>
            >> base. What could cause
            >>
            >>> this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I
            >>>
            >> have really heavy areas of
            >>
            >>> solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it
            >>>
            >> up a bit will these things sit
            >>
            >>> flat?
            >>>
            >>> Daniel Morris
            >>> The Arm Letterpress
            >>> Brooklyn, NY
            >>>
            >>>
            >>
            >>
            >
            > Harold Kyle
            > Boxcar Press
            > 501 W. Fayette St. #222 ~ Syracuse, NY 13204
            > 315-473-0930 phone ~ 315-473-0967 fax
            > http://www.boxcarpress.com
            >
            >
          • wa0dfw@copper.net
            Kinda normal out here!
            Message 5 of 27 , Feb 5, 2007
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              Kinda normal out here!

              >With relative humidity hovering between 15% and 20% in the northeast,
            • Harold Kyle
              Gerald, As I understand it, you re right in theory. When processed correctly and stored at 50% relative humidity (and kept out of excessive ultraviolet light)
              Message 6 of 27 , Feb 6, 2007
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                Gerald,

                As I understand it, you're right in theory. When processed correctly
                and stored at 50% relative humidity (and kept out of excessive
                ultraviolet light) afterwards, the plate will have its stated
                hardness. Once the environmental variables change (when the plate is
                sent out into the world), though, the plate can continue to harden.
                Leave a 152SB plate in an LA window sill and next week it will be so
                brittle that a slight flex in the plate can cause it to crack . This
                plate has gone beyond the hardness intended for it because of excess
                UV. The same can happen with plates that become excessively dry.

                The simple solution to this issue is to bag the plates and make sure
                they're out of light. Don't leave them out longer than necessary and
                remoisten them if they curl.

                In thinking this morning about John's suggestion of drying the plate
                longer, I realized this is a good suggestion during the Iowa summer.
                The humid weather then requires a longer (or hotter) drying to expel
                the right amount of moisture. I wonder, John, if you find yourself
                using a longer dry time more frequently in winter or in summer?

                Thanks,
                Harold


                On Feb 5, 2007, at 9:18 PM, Gerald Lange wrote:

                > One isn't hardening a plate through curing, that is
                > to say, one cannot increase or decrease the hardness through the
                > process. It is simply being brought to state.

                Harold Kyle
                Boxcar Press
                501 W. Fayette St. #222 ~ Syracuse, NY 13204
                315-473-0930 phone ~ 315-473-0967 fax
                http://www.boxcarpress.com
              • Daniel Morris
                Harold and list, Thanks for all the time you have taken to consider what my problems here might be. Having all this information I now feel my problems are due
                Message 7 of 27 , Feb 6, 2007
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                  Harold and list,
                  Thanks for all the time you have taken to consider what my problems here might be. Having all this information I now feel my problems are due to a combination of things. I am using a thick plate (KF152) which Harold tells me has a higher tendancy to curl than their standard plate material and, being unaware of this tendancy, I have ganged together multiple pieces of artwork without allowing an expansive/expensive border in negative space to fight against the curling tendancy of this plate material in type high areas.
                  When I mounted my plates and left them on the base overnight they were curling away from the adhesive by the next morning.
                  When I went to print, the edges of the dead areas were raised enough to come into contact with the rollers and were therefore being inked and ghosting on the sheet on the print stroke. My quick and dirty solution was to trim even more of these
                  dead areas away in order to prevent them from printing. This seems to
                  be working okay, but I have noticed just a tiny bit of plate creep because so much of the plate isn't properly adhered to the base until the moment it is impressed.
                  Because my studio is too large to keep it climate controlled overnight, I will try Harold's suggestion of placing a moist towel over the plate on the base and I will put weight on top of it until I arrive the next day to print again.
                  Thanks again for all the suggestions. I still have 600 more impressions to do with these plates so I'll get back to cranking.

                  Daniel Morris
                  The Arm Letterpress
                  Brooklyn, NY


                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Harold Kyle <harold@...>
                  To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, February 5, 2007 2:30:18 PM
                  Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Plastic Plates Curling...













                  Dan:



                  I'm sorry to hear the problems you're having with the plates. I wish

                  I could have responded earlier, but the heavy snow here left us short-

                  staffed and I didn't get a chance to write earlier. Feel free to call

                  us directly with any concerns about our plates when they happen!



                  The cold shouldn't affect the plates, but the dryness of the winter

                  weather will cause the plates to curl. When the plates dry out, their

                  surface hardens and tends to curl inward, especially on large solids

                  on the KF152 plates. Thinner plastic-backed plates (like our 94FL)

                  don't tend to have this problem, nor will plates with ligher

                  coverage. This problem tends to flare up in the winter when the air

                  is dry for many of our customers. Usually the impression of the press

                  flattens the plate, but in your case it sounds like the plate isn't

                  sticking at all.



                  There are two steps to prevent this problem:

                  * Humidity helps. Run a humidifier in your shop in winter to make

                  sure the plates aren't losing moisture.

                  * Keep your plates bagged (to keep the plates in constant humidity)

                  and out out light (to keep them from hardening).



                  I have one solution that might get you through this run:

                  * If your plates have hardened and curled, you can re-moisten them to

                  make them more flexible. Since water will damage the adhesive, I

                  recommend you place the plate polymer-side up on a flat surface and

                  lay a wet towel on top. Let the plate sit, moistening, for five to

                  ten minutes. You can then dry the plate by blotting it dry with a

                  lint-free rag and following up with a hair drier. The plate should be

                  more supple and flatten out when the press goes to impression.



                  If you continue to have problems with your plate, give me a call. We

                  guarantee the plates for six months after processing, so we can offer

                  a replacement if you've stored your plates properly and still have

                  this problem. This must be the order we shipped right before Christmas?



                  Good luck, and let me know how you fare.



                  Harold



                  PS. I just talked with a customer whose base was so cold, she

                  suspects the adhesive wasn't sticking well. The information on our

                  adhesive doesn't have a temperature range, but it could be that the

                  base is so cold that the rubber-based adhesive can't stick. This is

                  conjecture, but maybe if you heated the base, it would be more

                  receptive to the adhesive?

                  I will try to follow up with the manufacturer about this question

                  tomorrow.



                  On Feb 3, 2007, at 8:22 PM, featherweightpress wrote:

                  > have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates

                  > and sheet adhesive

                  > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the

                  > base. What could cause

                  > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I

                  > have really heavy areas of

                  > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it

                  > up a bit will these things sit

                  > flat?

                  >

                  > Daniel Morris

                  > The Arm Letterpress

                  > Brooklyn, NY

                  >



                  Harold Kyle

                  Boxcar Press

                  501 W. Fayette St. #222 ~ Syracuse, NY 13204

                  315-473-0930 phone ~ 315-473-0967 fax

                  http://www.boxcarpr ess.com














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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • typetom@aol.com
                  In a message dated 2/6/2007, harold@boxcarpress.com writes: In thinking this morning about John s suggestion of drying the plate longer, I realized this is a
                  Message 8 of 27 , Feb 6, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    In a message dated 2/6/2007, harold@... writes:

                    In thinking this morning about John's suggestion of drying the plate
                    longer, I realized this is a good suggestion during the Iowa summer.
                    The humid weather then requires a longer (or hotter) drying to expel
                    the right amount of moisture. I wonder, John, if you find yourself
                    using a longer dry time more frequently in winter or in summer?



                    I agree with John about drying time affecting curl. Here in Denver the air
                    is normally so dry a plate seems to need almost no drying time. I discovered
                    this is deceptive -- if I don't dry long enough, there is still moisture in
                    the plate which eventually dries, which seems to cause the plate to curl since
                    the surface shrinks more (or faster) than the sub-surface of the polymer.
                    Additional drying time (which I do with a hand-held hair drier) seems to solve
                    most of my curling problems.

                    The exact timing needed will vary according to humidity -- my methods are
                    somewhat impressionistic (or should I say learned by craft and experience),
                    usually blow-drying the plate until it is almost too hot to hold, and then a
                    little longer.... I also added a little additional post-exposure time, for what
                    it's worth, which seems to me to dry the plate further and maybe fix it
                    better in its original flat condition throughout the full depth of the polymer.

                    Larger surfaces still seem more prone to curl, and long storage still
                    results in a more brittle and often more curled plate. (I don't know if the brittle
                    quality is a result of an increased "hardness" of the polymer as it is
                    exposed to further UV, or dry air, or some other kind of deterioration in the
                    polymer such as Gerald suggests happens because of Ozone). But the result is that
                    I don't often reuse old plates, but save the negative and remake the plate.

                    Seems to me these variations may be better recognized when making plates by
                    hand, rather than by setting timers on a machine, but maybe that's my own
                    preference for hand-work showing. I did have to learn that some of the timing
                    measurements have to be mechanically and very precisely followed, especially
                    exposure times for differing kinds of images, and washout time limits.

                    (Regarding the extra exposure needed to preserve very fine lines and dots, I
                    would say that the polymer is not getting "harder" but may be hardening
                    further all the way to the base, which also allows sub-surface material to harden
                    more widely than the surface image -- which will provide additional support
                    and protection for the fine surface lines or dots. An opposite process is
                    involved in determining exposure time needed for printing a reverse line in a
                    solid surface -- too much exposure time will allow the sub-surface to harden
                    and widen to over-fill the detail of the reverse, thus leaving it without
                    enough relief for printing -- so this kind of image needs to be under-exposed to
                    protect the fine details. These processes are a result of the fact that the UV
                    light does not just enter the negative/plate in a directly vertical
                    direction, but angles through the image in the negative and thus exposes a wider area
                    below the surface, and thus can harden an expanding sub-surface area of
                    polymer the longer it has the chance.)

                    Best wishes, Tom

                    Tom Parson
                    Now It's Up To You Publications
                    157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
                    (303) 777-8951 home
                    (720) 480-5358 cell phone
                    http://members.aol.com/typetom


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Gerald Lange
                    Tom I think this is fairly accurate. Don t know about exactly about the drying time thing or the humidity factor, nor have ever experienced the curling factor.
                    Message 9 of 27 , Feb 7, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Tom

                      I think this is fairly accurate. Don't know about exactly about the
                      drying time thing or the humidity factor, nor have ever experienced the
                      curling factor. But I love the word "impressionistic" in this regard
                      (applies to machine processing as well as hand processing, by the way).

                      PP isn't voodoo, it's just a technical process. Thus, I'm confused about
                      the thinking on drying in the thread. Drying just removes the moisture
                      left over from washout and has nothing to do with the innards of the
                      matrix. Water doesn't actually get into the polymer. And while moisture
                      must be maintained at a certain rate to prolong the longevity of plates
                      I suspect far too much is being made of this.

                      Your description of the photopolymerization process is as on the mark as
                      it gets except that during extended exposure the relief grows upward
                      (shallower) as the molecular structure continues to grow and interlock
                      (because of the extended UV exposure).

                      I'm also thinking there is confusion (in the thread) over the term
                      hardness as opposed to eventual loss of tack and resilience, resulting
                      in brittleness. Post-exposure simply ensures complete
                      photopolymerization of the subsurface relief (the surface is already
                      stabilized); it is suggested that it can prolong deterioration but
                      common practice would indicate not to reuse plates (as per your
                      practice)—it has not seemed a beneficial practice to me as well. I
                      suspect if one waits a month or so to print from plates, well, one has
                      missed the window of optimum opportunity.

                      Fresh, seems to be a fairly politically correct term these days. "Fresh
                      plates are good for your printing"?

                      Gerald
                      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



                      typetom@... wrote:
                      >
                      > In a message dated 2/6/2007, harold@... writes:
                      >
                      > In thinking this morning about John's suggestion of drying the plate
                      > longer, I realized this is a good suggestion during the Iowa summer.
                      > The humid weather then requires a longer (or hotter) drying to expel
                      > the right amount of moisture. I wonder, John, if you find yourself
                      > using a longer dry time more frequently in winter or in summer?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I agree with John about drying time affecting curl. Here in Denver the air
                      > is normally so dry a plate seems to need almost no drying time. I discovered
                      > this is deceptive -- if I don't dry long enough, there is still moisture in
                      > the plate which eventually dries, which seems to cause the plate to curl since
                      > the surface shrinks more (or faster) than the sub-surface of the polymer.
                      > Additional drying time (which I do with a hand-held hair drier) seems to solve
                      > most of my curling problems.
                      >
                      > The exact timing needed will vary according to humidity -- my methods are
                      > somewhat impressionistic (or should I say learned by craft and experience),
                      > usually blow-drying the plate until it is almost too hot to hold, and then a
                      > little longer.... I also added a little additional post-exposure time, for what
                      > it's worth, which seems to me to dry the plate further and maybe fix it
                      > better in its original flat condition throughout the full depth of the polymer.
                      >
                      > Larger surfaces still seem more prone to curl, and long storage still
                      > results in a more brittle and often more curled plate. (I don't know if the brittle
                      > quality is a result of an increased "hardness" of the polymer as it is
                      > exposed to further UV, or dry air, or some other kind of deterioration in the
                      > polymer such as Gerald suggests happens because of Ozone). But the result is that
                      > I don't often reuse old plates, but save the negative and remake the plate.
                      >
                      > Seems to me these variations may be better recognized when making plates by
                      > hand, rather than by setting timers on a machine, but maybe that's my own
                      > preference for hand-work showing. I did have to learn that some of the timing
                      > measurements have to be mechanically and very precisely followed, especially
                      > exposure times for differing kinds of images, and washout time limits.
                      >
                      > (Regarding the extra exposure needed to preserve very fine lines and dots, I
                      > would say that the polymer is not getting "harder" but may be hardening
                      > further all the way to the base, which also allows sub-surface material to harden
                      > more widely than the surface image -- which will provide additional support
                      > and protection for the fine surface lines or dots. An opposite process is
                      > involved in determining exposure time needed for printing a reverse line in a
                      > solid surface -- too much exposure time will allow the sub-surface to harden
                      > and widen to over-fill the detail of the reverse, thus leaving it without
                      > enough relief for printing -- so this kind of image needs to be under-exposed to
                      > protect the fine details. These processes are a result of the fact that the UV
                      > light does not just enter the negative/plate in a directly vertical
                      > direction, but angles through the image in the negative and thus exposes a wider area
                      > below the surface, and thus can harden an expanding sub-surface area of
                      > polymer the longer it has the chance.)
                      >
                      > Best wishes, Tom
                      >
                      > Tom Parson
                      > Now It's Up To You Publications
                      > 157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
                      > (303) 777-8951 home
                      > (720) 480-5358 cell phone
                      > http://members.aol.com/typetom
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • John G. Henry
                      I find the most curling in heavy solids and halftone images. I do think the humidity is my greatest difficulty. My shop is not air- conditioned, so I do have
                      Message 10 of 27 , Feb 7, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I find the most curling in heavy solids and halftone images. I do
                        think the humidity is my greatest difficulty. My shop is not air-
                        conditioned, so I do have some variations from winter to summer.

                        Perhaps our California group members have a more stable environment
                        so they do not notice the vargaries of moisture as it relates to
                        photopolymer plate materials. It does seem that the plates are
                        capable of some retention or loss of moisture after polymerization.

                        John Henry

                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, typetom@... wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > In a message dated 2/6/2007, harold@... writes:
                        >
                        > In thinking this morning about John's suggestion of drying the
                        plate
                        > longer, I realized this is a good suggestion during the Iowa
                        summer.
                        > The humid weather then requires a longer (or hotter) drying to
                        expel
                        > the right amount of moisture. I wonder, John, if you find
                        yourself
                        > using a longer dry time more frequently in winter or in summer?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I agree with John about drying time affecting curl. Here in
                        Denver the air
                        > is normally so dry a plate seems to need almost no drying time. I
                        discovered
                        > this is deceptive -- if I don't dry long enough, there is still
                        moisture in
                        > the plate which eventually dries, which seems to cause the plate
                        to curl since
                        > the surface shrinks more (or faster) than the sub-surface of the
                        polymer.
                        > Additional drying time (which I do with a hand-held hair drier)
                        seems to solve
                        > most of my curling problems.
                        >
                        > The exact timing needed will vary according to humidity -- my
                        methods are
                        > somewhat impressionistic (or should I say learned by craft and
                        experience),
                        > usually blow-drying the plate until it is almost too hot to hold,
                        and then a
                        > little longer.... I also added a little additional post-exposure
                        time, for what
                        > it's worth, which seems to me to dry the plate further and maybe
                        fix it
                        > better in its original flat condition throughout the full depth
                        of the polymer.
                        >
                        > Larger surfaces still seem more prone to curl, and long storage
                        still
                        > results in a more brittle and often more curled plate. (I don't
                        know if the brittle
                        > quality is a result of an increased "hardness" of the polymer as
                        it is
                        > exposed to further UV, or dry air, or some other kind of
                        deterioration in the
                        > polymer such as Gerald suggests happens because of Ozone). But
                        the result is that
                        > I don't often reuse old plates, but save the negative and remake
                        the plate.
                        >
                        > Seems to me these variations may be better recognized when making
                        plates by
                        > hand, rather than by setting timers on a machine, but maybe
                        that's my own
                        > preference for hand-work showing. I did have to learn that some
                        of the timing
                        > measurements have to be mechanically and very precisely followed,
                        especially
                        > exposure times for differing kinds of images, and washout time
                        limits.
                        >
                        > (Regarding the extra exposure needed to preserve very fine lines
                        and dots, I
                        > would say that the polymer is not getting "harder" but may be
                        hardening
                        > further all the way to the base, which also allows sub-surface
                        material to harden
                        > more widely than the surface image -- which will provide
                        additional support
                        > and protection for the fine surface lines or dots. An opposite
                        process is
                        > involved in determining exposure time needed for printing a
                        reverse line in a
                        > solid surface -- too much exposure time will allow the sub-
                        surface to harden
                        > and widen to over-fill the detail of the reverse, thus leaving it
                        without
                        > enough relief for printing -- so this kind of image needs to be
                        under-exposed to
                        > protect the fine details. These processes are a result of the
                        fact that the UV
                        > light does not just enter the negative/plate in a directly
                        vertical
                        > direction, but angles through the image in the negative and thus
                        exposes a wider area
                        > below the surface, and thus can harden an expanding sub-surface
                        area of
                        > polymer the longer it has the chance.)
                        >
                        > Best wishes, Tom
                        >
                        > Tom Parson
                        > Now It's Up To You Publications
                        > 157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
                        > (303) 777-8951 home
                        > (720) 480-5358 cell phone
                        > http://members.aol.com/typetom
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • chelsea parker
                        hi- I own a c & p pilot press, and a few parts are needing to be replaced, along with the handle. The handle had been modified by the previous owner and I am
                        Message 11 of 27 , Feb 7, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          hi-

                          I own a c & p pilot press, and a few parts are needing to be replaced, along with the handle. The handle had been modified by the previous owner and I am wanting a regular style one for printing. I have tried many places off of briar press, but no one seems to return my emails or phone calls. Does anyone have any clue about where I could get a c & p pilot press handle? If anyone could help me it would be greatly appreciated.


                          Thanks so much.
                          cheers
                          -chelsea



                          ---------------------------------
                          Never Miss an Email
                          Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started!

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Gerald Lange
                          John It s plastic. Once cured, it s all downhill from there. Moisture is not retained by polymer, at best a certain threshold of moisture preserves its initial
                          Message 12 of 27 , Feb 8, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            John

                            It's plastic. Once cured, it's all downhill from there. Moisture is
                            not retained by polymer, at best a certain threshold of moisture
                            preserves its initial state in the short term. The molecular structure
                            of manufactured polymers, however, has not proven stable in the long term.

                            As much as the environmentalists condemn plastics, the
                            preservationists wring their hands about how to save them. The
                            Smithsonian can't keep astronaut suits from disintegrating much less
                            keep Barbie Dolls from leaching.

                            Gerald
                            http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



                            >
                            > Perhaps our California group members have a more stable environment
                            > so they do not notice the vargaries of moisture as it relates to
                            > photopolymer plate materials. It does seem that the plates are
                            > capable of some retention or loss of moisture after polymerization.
                            >
                            > John Henry
                            >
                          • Bethany Carter
                            Have you tried Don Black Linecasting in Canada? www.donblack.ca That s were I got my little Craftsman press (like a Pilot) but I m not sure if they sell
                            Message 13 of 27 , Feb 8, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Have you tried Don Black Linecasting in Canada? www.donblack.ca
                              That's were I got my little Craftsman press (like a Pilot) but I'm not sure
                              if they sell parts, it's worth a try though.

                              Good luck,

                              Bethany A. Carter


                              >From: chelsea parker <piecemeal.press@...>
                              >Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                              >To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                              >Subject: [PPLetterpress] c & p pilot press handle- HELP
                              >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:00:01 -0800 (PST)
                              >
                              >hi-
                              >
                              >I own a c & p pilot press, and a few parts are needing to be replaced,
                              >along with the handle. The handle had been modified by the previous owner
                              >and I am wanting a regular style one for printing. I have tried many places
                              >off of briar press, but no one seems to return my emails or phone calls.
                              >Does anyone have any clue about where I could get a c & p pilot press
                              >handle? If anyone could help me it would be greatly appreciated.
                              >
                              >
                              >Thanks so much.
                              >cheers
                              >-chelsea
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >---------------------------------
                              >Never Miss an Email
                              >Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started!
                              >
                              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >

                              _________________________________________________________________
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                            • Joe Ranneba
                              Hello... I am also looking for a Columbian #2 handle. This is very much like the Pilot handle meaning I could probably use a Pilot handle for this press. So,
                              Message 14 of 27 , Feb 9, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hello...

                                I am also looking for a Columbian #2 handle. This is very much like the
                                Pilot handle meaning I could probably use a Pilot handle for this
                                press. So, in other words, I am interested as well.

                                Thank you!


                                At 05:00 PM 2/7/2007, you wrote:

                                >hi-
                                >
                                >I own a c & p pilot press, and a few parts are needing to be replaced,
                                >along with the handle. The handle had been modified by the previous owner
                                >and I am wanting a regular style one for printing. I have tried many
                                >places off of briar press, but no one seems to return my emails or phone
                                >calls. Does anyone have any clue about where I could get a c & p pilot
                                >press handle? If anyone could help me it would be greatly appreciated.
                                >
                                >Thanks so much.
                                >cheers
                                >-chelsea
                                >
                                >---------------------------------
                                >Never Miss an Email
                                >Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started!
                                >
                                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >

                                Joseph Rannebarger
                                CITES Customer Service
                                Digital Computer Lab - Rm 1110
                                1304 W Springfield Ave
                                Urbana, IL 61801
                                217-333-1161


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