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Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Plastic Plates Curling...

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  • wa0dfw@copper.net
    This is not a long term solution to your problem, but to get the job done, fasten the plate to a piece of die plywood or similar, then shim from behind to
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 4 4:29 PM
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      This is not a "long term" solution to your problem, but to get the
      job done, fasten the plate to a piece of die plywood or similar, then
      shim from behind to bring it to type high.

      Another good plywood is something called Baltic Birch, another "apple
      ply", but maybe you can find an unused cutting die and salvage some
      plywood from it.

      You can nail the edges in non-print areas similar to the nailing they
      do on zinc and mag plates. You might glue it first with some high
      grade contact cement such as Barge, which is used extensively in the
      shoe making/repair industry.

      This might get the job out, your customer happy, and the "heat" off
      while you figure out what the real problem is.

      Good luck,

      Mo

      >Gerald and list,
      >Thanks for the input and suggestions. I should have mentioned these
      >are brand new plates from Boxcar. These are only the second plates I
      >have ordered and I had the same problem with the last ones, only to a
      >lesser and more manageable degree. This time the curling is causing
      >the plate to pull away from the adhesive backing and lift off the
      >base at the edges to the point where the dead area near the edge is
      >sitting above type high and inking.
      >This is very frustrating because this is a job for a friend who is
      >very eager to drop his already finished records in these jackets!
      >
      >Daniel Morris
      >The Arm Letterpress
      >Brooklyn, NY
      >
      >
      >----- Original Message ----
      >From: Gerald Lange <Bieler@...>
      >To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
      >Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 7:27:28 PM
      >Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Plastic Plates Curling...
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Daniel
      >
      >
      >
      >I've not encountered this but in the early years of photopolymer
      >
      >(1960s) they used a "carbon dioxide bath" to revitalize the plates.
      >
      >Nothing like that is available today but mainly I suspect because
      >
      >plates are considered disposable. Basically, save your film negs.
      >
      >
      >
      >The photopolymerization process never really stops and there are
      >
      >environmental issues as well ("ozone attack" is the primary culprit)
      >
      >and thus plates lose their resilience and tack fairly quickly. The
      >
      >process can be halted somewhat by longer post exposure and delayed by
      >
      >the use of antiozonants but I don't know that it makes any real sense
      >
      >to store them indefinitely though, since once the tack and resilience
      >
      >wanes, they no longer retain their original printing qualities.
      >
      >
      >
      >I'm assuming you are reusing plates? If not, contact your platemaker.
      >
      >
      >
      >Gerald
      >
      >http://BielerPress. blogspot. com
      >
      >
      >
      >>
      >
      >> I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates
      >
      >and sheet adhesive
      >
      >> backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the
      >
      >base. What could cause
      >
      >> this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I
      >
      >have really heavy areas of
      >
      >> solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it
      >
      >up a bit will these things sit
      >
      >> flat?
      >
      >>
      >
      >> Daniel Morris
      >
      >> The Arm Letterpress
      >
      >> Brooklyn, NY
      >
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      >
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      >_______________
      >Want to start your own business?
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      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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    • Bethany Carter
      Hi Daniel, You mentioned in an earlier post that your plates have heavy solid areas in them. Are these solid areas close to the edge of the plate? I have a few
      Message 2 of 27 , Feb 4 7:40 PM
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        Hi Daniel,

        You mentioned in an earlier post that your plates have heavy solid areas
        in them. Are these solid areas close to the edge of the plate? I have a few
        plates (adhesive, from Boxcar) that have solid areas that are close to the
        edge and I sometimes have problems getting them to stick all the way down on
        the base while printing. My advice is certainly not as sophisticated as the
        others that have responded, but I have had better luck with this issue by
        making sure there is a wide area of dead space around these solid areas and
        that seems to help anchor the plate to the base to make the solid areas
        stick all the way down and not curl up. Just something to try if nothing
        else works.

        Good luck,

        Bethany
        Proprietor, ThistleBerry Press


        >From: Daniel Morris <featherweightpress@...>
        >Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
        >To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Plastic Plates Curling...
        >Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 10:17:59 -0800 (PST)
        >
        >Gerald and list,
        >Thanks for the input and suggestions. I should have mentioned these are
        >brand new plates from Boxcar. These are only the second plates I have
        >ordered and I had the same problem with the last ones, only to a lesser and
        >more manageable degree. This time the curling is causing the plate to pull
        >away from the adhesive backing and lift off the base at the edges to the
        >point where the dead area near the edge is sitting above type high and
        >inking.
        >This is very frustrating because this is a job for a friend who is very
        >eager to drop his already finished records in these jackets!
        >
        >Daniel Morris
        >The Arm Letterpress
        >Brooklyn, NY
        >
        >
        >----- Original Message ----
        >From: Gerald Lange <Bieler@...>
        >To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
        >Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 7:27:28 PM
        >Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Plastic Plates Curling...
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Daniel
        >
        >
        >
        >I've not encountered this but in the early years of photopolymer
        >
        >(1960s) they used a "carbon dioxide bath" to revitalize the plates.
        >
        >Nothing like that is available today but mainly I suspect because
        >
        >plates are considered disposable. Basically, save your film negs.
        >
        >
        >
        >The photopolymerization process never really stops and there are
        >
        >environmental issues as well ("ozone attack" is the primary culprit)
        >
        >and thus plates lose their resilience and tack fairly quickly. The
        >
        >process can be halted somewhat by longer post exposure and delayed by
        >
        >the use of antiozonants but I don't know that it makes any real sense
        >
        >to store them indefinitely though, since once the tack and resilience
        >
        >wanes, they no longer retain their original printing qualities.
        >
        >
        >
        >I'm assuming you are reusing plates? If not, contact your platemaker.
        >
        >
        >
        >Gerald
        >
        >http://BielerPress. blogspot. com
        >
        >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates
        >
        >and sheet adhesive
        >
        > > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the
        >
        >base. What could cause
        >
        > > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I
        >
        >have really heavy areas of
        >
        > > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it
        >
        >up a bit will these things sit
        >
        > > flat?
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Daniel Morris
        >
        > > The Arm Letterpress
        >
        > > Brooklyn, NY
        >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • John G. Henry
        Daniel: I also have experienced this curling in my plates at times. I resolved the problem by doubling up on both my drying time after washout, and the post
        Message 3 of 27 , Feb 5 9:02 AM
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          Daniel:

          I also have experienced this curling in my plates at times. I
          resolved the problem by doubling up on both my drying time after
          washout, and the post exposure time. I think they were re-absorbing
          moisture (or drying out), changing the dimensions of the
          image areas, causing heavy solid areas to cup up and leaving the
          plate material curly as you describe.

          Try a longer dry, but not too high a temperature, and give them a
          long post exposure and see if that resolves your issues.

          John G. Henry
          Cedar Creek Press

          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "featherweightpress"
          <featherweightpress@...> wrote:
          >
          > I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates
          and sheet adhesive
          > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the
          base. What could cause
          > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I
          have really heavy areas of
          > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it
          up a bit will these things sit
          > flat?
          >
          > Daniel Morris
          > The Arm Letterpress
          > Brooklyn, NY
          >
        • Daniel Morris
          John, That sounds exactly like what I am experiencing. I don t yet have facilities to process plates in house so I will have to speak to my platemaker about
          Message 4 of 27 , Feb 5 1:29 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            John,
            That sounds exactly like what I am experiencing. I don't yet have facilities to process plates in house so I will have to speak to my platemaker about your recommendations. I suspect they are not accustomed to setting their machines to deal with such large areas of solid.

            Daniel Morris
            The Arm Letterpress
            Brooklyn, NY



            ----- Original Message ----
            From: John G. Henry <JohnH@...>
            To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, February 5, 2007 9:02:58 AM
            Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Plastic Plates Curling...













            Daniel:



            I also have experienced this curling in my plates at times. I

            resolved the problem by doubling up on both my drying time after

            washout, and the post exposure time. I think they were re-absorbing

            moisture (or drying out), changing the dimensions of the

            image areas, causing heavy solid areas to cup up and leaving the

            plate material curly as you describe.



            Try a longer dry, but not too high a temperature, and give them a

            long post exposure and see if that resolves your issues.



            John G. Henry

            Cedar Creek Press



            --- In PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com, "featherweightpress "

            <featherweightpress @...> wrote:

            >

            > I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates

            and sheet adhesive

            > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the

            base. What could cause

            > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I

            have really heavy areas of

            > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it

            up a bit will these things sit

            > flat?

            >

            > Daniel Morris

            > The Arm Letterpress

            > Brooklyn, NY

            >














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          • Harold Kyle
            Dan: I m sorry to hear the problems you re having with the plates. I wish I could have responded earlier, but the heavy snow here left us short- staffed and I
            Message 5 of 27 , Feb 5 2:30 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Dan:

              I'm sorry to hear the problems you're having with the plates. I wish
              I could have responded earlier, but the heavy snow here left us short-
              staffed and I didn't get a chance to write earlier. Feel free to call
              us directly with any concerns about our plates when they happen!

              The cold shouldn't affect the plates, but the dryness of the winter
              weather will cause the plates to curl. When the plates dry out, their
              surface hardens and tends to curl inward, especially on large solids
              on the KF152 plates. Thinner plastic-backed plates (like our 94FL)
              don't tend to have this problem, nor will plates with ligher
              coverage. This problem tends to flare up in the winter when the air
              is dry for many of our customers. Usually the impression of the press
              flattens the plate, but in your case it sounds like the plate isn't
              sticking at all.

              There are two steps to prevent this problem:
              * Humidity helps. Run a humidifier in your shop in winter to make
              sure the plates aren't losing moisture.
              * Keep your plates bagged (to keep the plates in constant humidity)
              and out out light (to keep them from hardening).

              I have one solution that might get you through this run:
              * If your plates have hardened and curled, you can re-moisten them to
              make them more flexible. Since water will damage the adhesive, I
              recommend you place the plate polymer-side up on a flat surface and
              lay a wet towel on top. Let the plate sit, moistening, for five to
              ten minutes. You can then dry the plate by blotting it dry with a
              lint-free rag and following up with a hair drier. The plate should be
              more supple and flatten out when the press goes to impression.

              If you continue to have problems with your plate, give me a call. We
              guarantee the plates for six months after processing, so we can offer
              a replacement if you've stored your plates properly and still have
              this problem. This must be the order we shipped right before Christmas?

              Good luck, and let me know how you fare.

              Harold

              PS. I just talked with a customer whose base was so cold, she
              suspects the adhesive wasn't sticking well. The information on our
              adhesive doesn't have a temperature range, but it could be that the
              base is so cold that the rubber-based adhesive can't stick. This is
              conjecture, but maybe if you heated the base, it would be more
              receptive to the adhesive?
              I will try to follow up with the manufacturer about this question
              tomorrow.

              On Feb 3, 2007, at 8:22 PM, featherweightpress wrote:
              > have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates
              > and sheet adhesive
              > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the
              > base. What could cause
              > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I
              > have really heavy areas of
              > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it
              > up a bit will these things sit
              > flat?
              >
              > Daniel Morris
              > The Arm Letterpress
              > Brooklyn, NY
              >

              Harold Kyle
              Boxcar Press
              501 W. Fayette St. #222 ~ Syracuse, NY 13204
              315-473-0930 phone ~ 315-473-0967 fax
              http://www.boxcarpress.com
            • Harold Kyle
              John: With relative humidity hovering between 15% and 20% in the northeast, I don t think that reabsorption of moisture is possible! There just is none in the
              Message 6 of 27 , Feb 5 5:47 PM
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                John:

                With relative humidity hovering between 15% and 20% in the northeast,
                I don't think that reabsorption of moisture is possible! There just
                is none in the air. In my experience, it's actually low humidity that
                exacerbates curling. I've confirmed this phenomenon with two of the
                plate manufacturers that we represent, and it bears out in the
                seasonal changes of our customers' print shops. Conversely, in the
                humid summer months, plates tend to be too moist. The best solution
                is to maintain (somewhat) constant humidity in your shop year round.

                Dan suggested our platemaker might not have been set up right for
                solids in his response to your message. I think I'll address that
                here. One thing we can to minimize curl is cut back on the exposures.
                This wasn't possible in this case because the artwork contained the
                equivalent of 4 point type in close proximity to the solid (this is
                the "healthy hot dog" text, Dan). Small point sizes need longer
                exposure to hold on the plate and to become hard enough to withstand
                printing. 4 point type is miniscule and approaches the minimum we can
                hold. It's a delicate balance between obtaining the detail/hardness
                required in the small lines without burning the plate to the point of
                curling. We always err on the side of detail, because curled plates
                usually flatten during printing. If the detail isn't there, though,
                it doesn't come back during printing!

                Bethany's tip of allowing a large border around the plate is a good
                one. Since I noticed that the solid area is at the plate edge, it may
                be that we trimmed the plate too close to the solid. I'm beginning to
                suspect this may be to blame. As I mentioned in my previous message,
                we're happy to remake any plates you feel weren't made right. Let me
                know if I can send a replacement for you to receive Wednesday.

                Harold


                On Feb 5, 2007, at 12:02 PM, John G. Henry wrote:

                > Daniel:
                >
                > I also have experienced this curling in my plates at times. I
                > resolved the problem by doubling up on both my drying time after
                > washout, and the post exposure time. I think they were re-absorbing
                > moisture (or drying out), changing the dimensions of the
                > image areas, causing heavy solid areas to cup up and leaving the
                > plate material curly as you describe.
                >
                > Try a longer dry, but not too high a temperature, and give them a
                > long post exposure and see if that resolves your issues.
                >
                > John G. Henry
                > Cedar Creek Press
                >
                > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "featherweightpress"
                > <featherweightpress@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates
                > and sheet adhesive
                > > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the
                > base. What could cause
                > > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I
                > have really heavy areas of
                > > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it
                > up a bit will these things sit
                > > flat?
                > >
                > > Daniel Morris
                > > The Arm Letterpress
                > > Brooklyn, NY
                > >
                >
                >
                >

                Harold Kyle
                Boxcar Press
                501 W. Fayette St. #222 ~ Syracuse, NY 13204
                315-473-0930 phone ~ 315-473-0967 fax
                http://www.boxcarpress.com
              • Gerald Lange
                Harold As far as I know plates have a stated hardness rating; once cured, that is their hardness. One isn t hardening a plate through curing, that is to say,
                Message 7 of 27 , Feb 5 6:18 PM
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                  Harold

                  As far as I know plates have a stated hardness rating; once cured, that
                  is their hardness. One isn't hardening a plate through curing, that is
                  to say, one cannot increase or decrease the hardness through the
                  process. It is simply being brought to state. It would be disastrous if
                  this were not the case.

                  I have no idea why plates would curl and rip away from the adhesive but
                  I suspect that temperature as well as humidity could come into play. I
                  do know that non-room temperature variance has an effect on exposure
                  times. I haven't experienced this on press though.

                  But I agree that putting a 4-pt text reverse on a solid is asking for a
                  difficult time on press. It can be done but I'd warn here against using
                  a delicately light serif face and/or composition that hasn't been
                  significantly tracked out at that size. Plus there simply isn't enough
                  relief (if exposed correctly, as you point out) and constant cleaning is
                  required.

                  Gerald
                  http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                  Harold Kyle wrote:
                  > John:
                  >
                  > With relative humidity hovering between 15% and 20% in the northeast,
                  > I don't think that reabsorption of moisture is possible! There just
                  > is none in the air. In my experience, it's actually low humidity that
                  > exacerbates curling. I've confirmed this phenomenon with two of the
                  > plate manufacturers that we represent, and it bears out in the
                  > seasonal changes of our customers' print shops. Conversely, in the
                  > humid summer months, plates tend to be too moist. The best solution
                  > is to maintain (somewhat) constant humidity in your shop year round.
                  >
                  > Dan suggested our platemaker might not have been set up right for
                  > solids in his response to your message. I think I'll address that
                  > here. One thing we can to minimize curl is cut back on the exposures.
                  > This wasn't possible in this case because the artwork contained the
                  > equivalent of 4 point type in close proximity to the solid (this is
                  > the "healthy hot dog" text, Dan). Small point sizes need longer
                  > exposure to hold on the plate and to become hard enough to withstand
                  > printing. 4 point type is miniscule and approaches the minimum we can
                  > hold. It's a delicate balance between obtaining the detail/hardness
                  > required in the small lines without burning the plate to the point of
                  > curling. We always err on the side of detail, because curled plates
                  > usually flatten during printing. If the detail isn't there, though,
                  > it doesn't come back during printing!
                  >
                  > Bethany's tip of allowing a large border around the plate is a good
                  > one. Since I noticed that the solid area is at the plate edge, it may
                  > be that we trimmed the plate too close to the solid. I'm beginning to
                  > suspect this may be to blame. As I mentioned in my previous message,
                  > we're happy to remake any plates you feel weren't made right. Let me
                  > know if I can send a replacement for you to receive Wednesday.
                  >
                  > Harold
                  >
                  >
                  > On Feb 5, 2007, at 12:02 PM, John G. Henry wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >> Daniel:
                  >>
                  >> I also have experienced this curling in my plates at times. I
                  >> resolved the problem by doubling up on both my drying time after
                  >> washout, and the post exposure time. I think they were re-absorbing
                  >> moisture (or drying out), changing the dimensions of the
                  >> image areas, causing heavy solid areas to cup up and leaving the
                  >> plate material curly as you describe.
                  >>
                  >> Try a longer dry, but not too high a temperature, and give them a
                  >> long post exposure and see if that resolves your issues.
                  >>
                  >> John G. Henry
                  >> Cedar Creek Press
                  >>
                  >> --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "featherweightpress"
                  >> <featherweightpress@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >>> I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates
                  >>>
                  >> and sheet adhesive
                  >>
                  >>> backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the
                  >>>
                  >> base. What could cause
                  >>
                  >>> this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I
                  >>>
                  >> have really heavy areas of
                  >>
                  >>> solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it
                  >>>
                  >> up a bit will these things sit
                  >>
                  >>> flat?
                  >>>
                  >>> Daniel Morris
                  >>> The Arm Letterpress
                  >>> Brooklyn, NY
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  > Harold Kyle
                  > Boxcar Press
                  > 501 W. Fayette St. #222 ~ Syracuse, NY 13204
                  > 315-473-0930 phone ~ 315-473-0967 fax
                  > http://www.boxcarpress.com
                  >
                  >
                • wa0dfw@copper.net
                  Kinda normal out here!
                  Message 8 of 27 , Feb 5 10:25 PM
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                    Kinda normal out here!

                    >With relative humidity hovering between 15% and 20% in the northeast,
                  • Harold Kyle
                    Gerald, As I understand it, you re right in theory. When processed correctly and stored at 50% relative humidity (and kept out of excessive ultraviolet light)
                    Message 9 of 27 , Feb 6 6:06 AM
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                      Gerald,

                      As I understand it, you're right in theory. When processed correctly
                      and stored at 50% relative humidity (and kept out of excessive
                      ultraviolet light) afterwards, the plate will have its stated
                      hardness. Once the environmental variables change (when the plate is
                      sent out into the world), though, the plate can continue to harden.
                      Leave a 152SB plate in an LA window sill and next week it will be so
                      brittle that a slight flex in the plate can cause it to crack . This
                      plate has gone beyond the hardness intended for it because of excess
                      UV. The same can happen with plates that become excessively dry.

                      The simple solution to this issue is to bag the plates and make sure
                      they're out of light. Don't leave them out longer than necessary and
                      remoisten them if they curl.

                      In thinking this morning about John's suggestion of drying the plate
                      longer, I realized this is a good suggestion during the Iowa summer.
                      The humid weather then requires a longer (or hotter) drying to expel
                      the right amount of moisture. I wonder, John, if you find yourself
                      using a longer dry time more frequently in winter or in summer?

                      Thanks,
                      Harold


                      On Feb 5, 2007, at 9:18 PM, Gerald Lange wrote:

                      > One isn't hardening a plate through curing, that is
                      > to say, one cannot increase or decrease the hardness through the
                      > process. It is simply being brought to state.

                      Harold Kyle
                      Boxcar Press
                      501 W. Fayette St. #222 ~ Syracuse, NY 13204
                      315-473-0930 phone ~ 315-473-0967 fax
                      http://www.boxcarpress.com
                    • Daniel Morris
                      Harold and list, Thanks for all the time you have taken to consider what my problems here might be. Having all this information I now feel my problems are due
                      Message 10 of 27 , Feb 6 1:17 PM
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                        Harold and list,
                        Thanks for all the time you have taken to consider what my problems here might be. Having all this information I now feel my problems are due to a combination of things. I am using a thick plate (KF152) which Harold tells me has a higher tendancy to curl than their standard plate material and, being unaware of this tendancy, I have ganged together multiple pieces of artwork without allowing an expansive/expensive border in negative space to fight against the curling tendancy of this plate material in type high areas.
                        When I mounted my plates and left them on the base overnight they were curling away from the adhesive by the next morning.
                        When I went to print, the edges of the dead areas were raised enough to come into contact with the rollers and were therefore being inked and ghosting on the sheet on the print stroke. My quick and dirty solution was to trim even more of these
                        dead areas away in order to prevent them from printing. This seems to
                        be working okay, but I have noticed just a tiny bit of plate creep because so much of the plate isn't properly adhered to the base until the moment it is impressed.
                        Because my studio is too large to keep it climate controlled overnight, I will try Harold's suggestion of placing a moist towel over the plate on the base and I will put weight on top of it until I arrive the next day to print again.
                        Thanks again for all the suggestions. I still have 600 more impressions to do with these plates so I'll get back to cranking.

                        Daniel Morris
                        The Arm Letterpress
                        Brooklyn, NY


                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: Harold Kyle <harold@...>
                        To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, February 5, 2007 2:30:18 PM
                        Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Plastic Plates Curling...













                        Dan:



                        I'm sorry to hear the problems you're having with the plates. I wish

                        I could have responded earlier, but the heavy snow here left us short-

                        staffed and I didn't get a chance to write earlier. Feel free to call

                        us directly with any concerns about our plates when they happen!



                        The cold shouldn't affect the plates, but the dryness of the winter

                        weather will cause the plates to curl. When the plates dry out, their

                        surface hardens and tends to curl inward, especially on large solids

                        on the KF152 plates. Thinner plastic-backed plates (like our 94FL)

                        don't tend to have this problem, nor will plates with ligher

                        coverage. This problem tends to flare up in the winter when the air

                        is dry for many of our customers. Usually the impression of the press

                        flattens the plate, but in your case it sounds like the plate isn't

                        sticking at all.



                        There are two steps to prevent this problem:

                        * Humidity helps. Run a humidifier in your shop in winter to make

                        sure the plates aren't losing moisture.

                        * Keep your plates bagged (to keep the plates in constant humidity)

                        and out out light (to keep them from hardening).



                        I have one solution that might get you through this run:

                        * If your plates have hardened and curled, you can re-moisten them to

                        make them more flexible. Since water will damage the adhesive, I

                        recommend you place the plate polymer-side up on a flat surface and

                        lay a wet towel on top. Let the plate sit, moistening, for five to

                        ten minutes. You can then dry the plate by blotting it dry with a

                        lint-free rag and following up with a hair drier. The plate should be

                        more supple and flatten out when the press goes to impression.



                        If you continue to have problems with your plate, give me a call. We

                        guarantee the plates for six months after processing, so we can offer

                        a replacement if you've stored your plates properly and still have

                        this problem. This must be the order we shipped right before Christmas?



                        Good luck, and let me know how you fare.



                        Harold



                        PS. I just talked with a customer whose base was so cold, she

                        suspects the adhesive wasn't sticking well. The information on our

                        adhesive doesn't have a temperature range, but it could be that the

                        base is so cold that the rubber-based adhesive can't stick. This is

                        conjecture, but maybe if you heated the base, it would be more

                        receptive to the adhesive?

                        I will try to follow up with the manufacturer about this question

                        tomorrow.



                        On Feb 3, 2007, at 8:22 PM, featherweightpress wrote:

                        > have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates

                        > and sheet adhesive

                        > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the

                        > base. What could cause

                        > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I

                        > have really heavy areas of

                        > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it

                        > up a bit will these things sit

                        > flat?

                        >

                        > Daniel Morris

                        > The Arm Letterpress

                        > Brooklyn, NY

                        >



                        Harold Kyle

                        Boxcar Press

                        501 W. Fayette St. #222 ~ Syracuse, NY 13204

                        315-473-0930 phone ~ 315-473-0967 fax

                        http://www.boxcarpr ess.com














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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • typetom@aol.com
                        In a message dated 2/6/2007, harold@boxcarpress.com writes: In thinking this morning about John s suggestion of drying the plate longer, I realized this is a
                        Message 11 of 27 , Feb 6 1:39 PM
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                          In a message dated 2/6/2007, harold@... writes:

                          In thinking this morning about John's suggestion of drying the plate
                          longer, I realized this is a good suggestion during the Iowa summer.
                          The humid weather then requires a longer (or hotter) drying to expel
                          the right amount of moisture. I wonder, John, if you find yourself
                          using a longer dry time more frequently in winter or in summer?



                          I agree with John about drying time affecting curl. Here in Denver the air
                          is normally so dry a plate seems to need almost no drying time. I discovered
                          this is deceptive -- if I don't dry long enough, there is still moisture in
                          the plate which eventually dries, which seems to cause the plate to curl since
                          the surface shrinks more (or faster) than the sub-surface of the polymer.
                          Additional drying time (which I do with a hand-held hair drier) seems to solve
                          most of my curling problems.

                          The exact timing needed will vary according to humidity -- my methods are
                          somewhat impressionistic (or should I say learned by craft and experience),
                          usually blow-drying the plate until it is almost too hot to hold, and then a
                          little longer.... I also added a little additional post-exposure time, for what
                          it's worth, which seems to me to dry the plate further and maybe fix it
                          better in its original flat condition throughout the full depth of the polymer.

                          Larger surfaces still seem more prone to curl, and long storage still
                          results in a more brittle and often more curled plate. (I don't know if the brittle
                          quality is a result of an increased "hardness" of the polymer as it is
                          exposed to further UV, or dry air, or some other kind of deterioration in the
                          polymer such as Gerald suggests happens because of Ozone). But the result is that
                          I don't often reuse old plates, but save the negative and remake the plate.

                          Seems to me these variations may be better recognized when making plates by
                          hand, rather than by setting timers on a machine, but maybe that's my own
                          preference for hand-work showing. I did have to learn that some of the timing
                          measurements have to be mechanically and very precisely followed, especially
                          exposure times for differing kinds of images, and washout time limits.

                          (Regarding the extra exposure needed to preserve very fine lines and dots, I
                          would say that the polymer is not getting "harder" but may be hardening
                          further all the way to the base, which also allows sub-surface material to harden
                          more widely than the surface image -- which will provide additional support
                          and protection for the fine surface lines or dots. An opposite process is
                          involved in determining exposure time needed for printing a reverse line in a
                          solid surface -- too much exposure time will allow the sub-surface to harden
                          and widen to over-fill the detail of the reverse, thus leaving it without
                          enough relief for printing -- so this kind of image needs to be under-exposed to
                          protect the fine details. These processes are a result of the fact that the UV
                          light does not just enter the negative/plate in a directly vertical
                          direction, but angles through the image in the negative and thus exposes a wider area
                          below the surface, and thus can harden an expanding sub-surface area of
                          polymer the longer it has the chance.)

                          Best wishes, Tom

                          Tom Parson
                          Now It's Up To You Publications
                          157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
                          (303) 777-8951 home
                          (720) 480-5358 cell phone
                          http://members.aol.com/typetom


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Gerald Lange
                          Tom I think this is fairly accurate. Don t know about exactly about the drying time thing or the humidity factor, nor have ever experienced the curling factor.
                          Message 12 of 27 , Feb 7 2:37 AM
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                            Tom

                            I think this is fairly accurate. Don't know about exactly about the
                            drying time thing or the humidity factor, nor have ever experienced the
                            curling factor. But I love the word "impressionistic" in this regard
                            (applies to machine processing as well as hand processing, by the way).

                            PP isn't voodoo, it's just a technical process. Thus, I'm confused about
                            the thinking on drying in the thread. Drying just removes the moisture
                            left over from washout and has nothing to do with the innards of the
                            matrix. Water doesn't actually get into the polymer. And while moisture
                            must be maintained at a certain rate to prolong the longevity of plates
                            I suspect far too much is being made of this.

                            Your description of the photopolymerization process is as on the mark as
                            it gets except that during extended exposure the relief grows upward
                            (shallower) as the molecular structure continues to grow and interlock
                            (because of the extended UV exposure).

                            I'm also thinking there is confusion (in the thread) over the term
                            hardness as opposed to eventual loss of tack and resilience, resulting
                            in brittleness. Post-exposure simply ensures complete
                            photopolymerization of the subsurface relief (the surface is already
                            stabilized); it is suggested that it can prolong deterioration but
                            common practice would indicate not to reuse plates (as per your
                            practice)—it has not seemed a beneficial practice to me as well. I
                            suspect if one waits a month or so to print from plates, well, one has
                            missed the window of optimum opportunity.

                            Fresh, seems to be a fairly politically correct term these days. "Fresh
                            plates are good for your printing"?

                            Gerald
                            http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



                            typetom@... wrote:
                            >
                            > In a message dated 2/6/2007, harold@... writes:
                            >
                            > In thinking this morning about John's suggestion of drying the plate
                            > longer, I realized this is a good suggestion during the Iowa summer.
                            > The humid weather then requires a longer (or hotter) drying to expel
                            > the right amount of moisture. I wonder, John, if you find yourself
                            > using a longer dry time more frequently in winter or in summer?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I agree with John about drying time affecting curl. Here in Denver the air
                            > is normally so dry a plate seems to need almost no drying time. I discovered
                            > this is deceptive -- if I don't dry long enough, there is still moisture in
                            > the plate which eventually dries, which seems to cause the plate to curl since
                            > the surface shrinks more (or faster) than the sub-surface of the polymer.
                            > Additional drying time (which I do with a hand-held hair drier) seems to solve
                            > most of my curling problems.
                            >
                            > The exact timing needed will vary according to humidity -- my methods are
                            > somewhat impressionistic (or should I say learned by craft and experience),
                            > usually blow-drying the plate until it is almost too hot to hold, and then a
                            > little longer.... I also added a little additional post-exposure time, for what
                            > it's worth, which seems to me to dry the plate further and maybe fix it
                            > better in its original flat condition throughout the full depth of the polymer.
                            >
                            > Larger surfaces still seem more prone to curl, and long storage still
                            > results in a more brittle and often more curled plate. (I don't know if the brittle
                            > quality is a result of an increased "hardness" of the polymer as it is
                            > exposed to further UV, or dry air, or some other kind of deterioration in the
                            > polymer such as Gerald suggests happens because of Ozone). But the result is that
                            > I don't often reuse old plates, but save the negative and remake the plate.
                            >
                            > Seems to me these variations may be better recognized when making plates by
                            > hand, rather than by setting timers on a machine, but maybe that's my own
                            > preference for hand-work showing. I did have to learn that some of the timing
                            > measurements have to be mechanically and very precisely followed, especially
                            > exposure times for differing kinds of images, and washout time limits.
                            >
                            > (Regarding the extra exposure needed to preserve very fine lines and dots, I
                            > would say that the polymer is not getting "harder" but may be hardening
                            > further all the way to the base, which also allows sub-surface material to harden
                            > more widely than the surface image -- which will provide additional support
                            > and protection for the fine surface lines or dots. An opposite process is
                            > involved in determining exposure time needed for printing a reverse line in a
                            > solid surface -- too much exposure time will allow the sub-surface to harden
                            > and widen to over-fill the detail of the reverse, thus leaving it without
                            > enough relief for printing -- so this kind of image needs to be under-exposed to
                            > protect the fine details. These processes are a result of the fact that the UV
                            > light does not just enter the negative/plate in a directly vertical
                            > direction, but angles through the image in the negative and thus exposes a wider area
                            > below the surface, and thus can harden an expanding sub-surface area of
                            > polymer the longer it has the chance.)
                            >
                            > Best wishes, Tom
                            >
                            > Tom Parson
                            > Now It's Up To You Publications
                            > 157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
                            > (303) 777-8951 home
                            > (720) 480-5358 cell phone
                            > http://members.aol.com/typetom
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • John G. Henry
                            I find the most curling in heavy solids and halftone images. I do think the humidity is my greatest difficulty. My shop is not air- conditioned, so I do have
                            Message 13 of 27 , Feb 7 8:02 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I find the most curling in heavy solids and halftone images. I do
                              think the humidity is my greatest difficulty. My shop is not air-
                              conditioned, so I do have some variations from winter to summer.

                              Perhaps our California group members have a more stable environment
                              so they do not notice the vargaries of moisture as it relates to
                              photopolymer plate materials. It does seem that the plates are
                              capable of some retention or loss of moisture after polymerization.

                              John Henry

                              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, typetom@... wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > In a message dated 2/6/2007, harold@... writes:
                              >
                              > In thinking this morning about John's suggestion of drying the
                              plate
                              > longer, I realized this is a good suggestion during the Iowa
                              summer.
                              > The humid weather then requires a longer (or hotter) drying to
                              expel
                              > the right amount of moisture. I wonder, John, if you find
                              yourself
                              > using a longer dry time more frequently in winter or in summer?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I agree with John about drying time affecting curl. Here in
                              Denver the air
                              > is normally so dry a plate seems to need almost no drying time. I
                              discovered
                              > this is deceptive -- if I don't dry long enough, there is still
                              moisture in
                              > the plate which eventually dries, which seems to cause the plate
                              to curl since
                              > the surface shrinks more (or faster) than the sub-surface of the
                              polymer.
                              > Additional drying time (which I do with a hand-held hair drier)
                              seems to solve
                              > most of my curling problems.
                              >
                              > The exact timing needed will vary according to humidity -- my
                              methods are
                              > somewhat impressionistic (or should I say learned by craft and
                              experience),
                              > usually blow-drying the plate until it is almost too hot to hold,
                              and then a
                              > little longer.... I also added a little additional post-exposure
                              time, for what
                              > it's worth, which seems to me to dry the plate further and maybe
                              fix it
                              > better in its original flat condition throughout the full depth
                              of the polymer.
                              >
                              > Larger surfaces still seem more prone to curl, and long storage
                              still
                              > results in a more brittle and often more curled plate. (I don't
                              know if the brittle
                              > quality is a result of an increased "hardness" of the polymer as
                              it is
                              > exposed to further UV, or dry air, or some other kind of
                              deterioration in the
                              > polymer such as Gerald suggests happens because of Ozone). But
                              the result is that
                              > I don't often reuse old plates, but save the negative and remake
                              the plate.
                              >
                              > Seems to me these variations may be better recognized when making
                              plates by
                              > hand, rather than by setting timers on a machine, but maybe
                              that's my own
                              > preference for hand-work showing. I did have to learn that some
                              of the timing
                              > measurements have to be mechanically and very precisely followed,
                              especially
                              > exposure times for differing kinds of images, and washout time
                              limits.
                              >
                              > (Regarding the extra exposure needed to preserve very fine lines
                              and dots, I
                              > would say that the polymer is not getting "harder" but may be
                              hardening
                              > further all the way to the base, which also allows sub-surface
                              material to harden
                              > more widely than the surface image -- which will provide
                              additional support
                              > and protection for the fine surface lines or dots. An opposite
                              process is
                              > involved in determining exposure time needed for printing a
                              reverse line in a
                              > solid surface -- too much exposure time will allow the sub-
                              surface to harden
                              > and widen to over-fill the detail of the reverse, thus leaving it
                              without
                              > enough relief for printing -- so this kind of image needs to be
                              under-exposed to
                              > protect the fine details. These processes are a result of the
                              fact that the UV
                              > light does not just enter the negative/plate in a directly
                              vertical
                              > direction, but angles through the image in the negative and thus
                              exposes a wider area
                              > below the surface, and thus can harden an expanding sub-surface
                              area of
                              > polymer the longer it has the chance.)
                              >
                              > Best wishes, Tom
                              >
                              > Tom Parson
                              > Now It's Up To You Publications
                              > 157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
                              > (303) 777-8951 home
                              > (720) 480-5358 cell phone
                              > http://members.aol.com/typetom
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • chelsea parker
                              hi- I own a c & p pilot press, and a few parts are needing to be replaced, along with the handle. The handle had been modified by the previous owner and I am
                              Message 14 of 27 , Feb 7 3:00 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                hi-

                                I own a c & p pilot press, and a few parts are needing to be replaced, along with the handle. The handle had been modified by the previous owner and I am wanting a regular style one for printing. I have tried many places off of briar press, but no one seems to return my emails or phone calls. Does anyone have any clue about where I could get a c & p pilot press handle? If anyone could help me it would be greatly appreciated.


                                Thanks so much.
                                cheers
                                -chelsea



                                ---------------------------------
                                Never Miss an Email
                                Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started!

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                              • Gerald Lange
                                John It s plastic. Once cured, it s all downhill from there. Moisture is not retained by polymer, at best a certain threshold of moisture preserves its initial
                                Message 15 of 27 , Feb 8 2:54 AM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  John

                                  It's plastic. Once cured, it's all downhill from there. Moisture is
                                  not retained by polymer, at best a certain threshold of moisture
                                  preserves its initial state in the short term. The molecular structure
                                  of manufactured polymers, however, has not proven stable in the long term.

                                  As much as the environmentalists condemn plastics, the
                                  preservationists wring their hands about how to save them. The
                                  Smithsonian can't keep astronaut suits from disintegrating much less
                                  keep Barbie Dolls from leaching.

                                  Gerald
                                  http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



                                  >
                                  > Perhaps our California group members have a more stable environment
                                  > so they do not notice the vargaries of moisture as it relates to
                                  > photopolymer plate materials. It does seem that the plates are
                                  > capable of some retention or loss of moisture after polymerization.
                                  >
                                  > John Henry
                                  >
                                • Bethany Carter
                                  Have you tried Don Black Linecasting in Canada? www.donblack.ca That s were I got my little Craftsman press (like a Pilot) but I m not sure if they sell
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Feb 8 10:14 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Have you tried Don Black Linecasting in Canada? www.donblack.ca
                                    That's were I got my little Craftsman press (like a Pilot) but I'm not sure
                                    if they sell parts, it's worth a try though.

                                    Good luck,

                                    Bethany A. Carter


                                    >From: chelsea parker <piecemeal.press@...>
                                    >Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                    >To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                    >Subject: [PPLetterpress] c & p pilot press handle- HELP
                                    >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:00:01 -0800 (PST)
                                    >
                                    >hi-
                                    >
                                    >I own a c & p pilot press, and a few parts are needing to be replaced,
                                    >along with the handle. The handle had been modified by the previous owner
                                    >and I am wanting a regular style one for printing. I have tried many places
                                    >off of briar press, but no one seems to return my emails or phone calls.
                                    >Does anyone have any clue about where I could get a c & p pilot press
                                    >handle? If anyone could help me it would be greatly appreciated.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Thanks so much.
                                    >cheers
                                    >-chelsea
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >---------------------------------
                                    >Never Miss an Email
                                    >Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started!
                                    >
                                    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >

                                    _________________________________________________________________
                                    Check out all that glitters with the MSN Entertainment Guide to the Academy
                                    Awards� http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline2
                                  • Joe Ranneba
                                    Hello... I am also looking for a Columbian #2 handle. This is very much like the Pilot handle meaning I could probably use a Pilot handle for this press. So,
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Feb 9 6:43 AM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hello...

                                      I am also looking for a Columbian #2 handle. This is very much like the
                                      Pilot handle meaning I could probably use a Pilot handle for this
                                      press. So, in other words, I am interested as well.

                                      Thank you!


                                      At 05:00 PM 2/7/2007, you wrote:

                                      >hi-
                                      >
                                      >I own a c & p pilot press, and a few parts are needing to be replaced,
                                      >along with the handle. The handle had been modified by the previous owner
                                      >and I am wanting a regular style one for printing. I have tried many
                                      >places off of briar press, but no one seems to return my emails or phone
                                      >calls. Does anyone have any clue about where I could get a c & p pilot
                                      >press handle? If anyone could help me it would be greatly appreciated.
                                      >
                                      >Thanks so much.
                                      >cheers
                                      >-chelsea
                                      >
                                      >---------------------------------
                                      >Never Miss an Email
                                      >Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started!
                                      >
                                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >

                                      Joseph Rannebarger
                                      CITES Customer Service
                                      Digital Computer Lab - Rm 1110
                                      1304 W Springfield Ave
                                      Urbana, IL 61801
                                      217-333-1161


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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