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Plastic Plates Curling...

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  • featherweightpress
    I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates and sheet adhesive backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the base.
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 3 5:22 PM
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      I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates and sheet adhesive
      backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the base. What could cause
      this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I have really heavy areas of
      solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it up a bit will these things sit
      flat?

      Daniel Morris
      The Arm Letterpress
      Brooklyn, NY
    • typetom@aol.com
      Hi Daniel, My sense of it is that as photopolymer plates continue to dry from the surface they shrink slightly and curl. It happens to metal backed plates as
      Message 2 of 27 , Feb 3 6:44 PM
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        Hi Daniel,
        My sense of it is that as photopolymer plates continue to dry from the
        surface they shrink slightly and curl. It happens to metal backed plates as well.
        Larger surfaces have more pull to the curl. A partial answer may be to extend
        your drying time further after washout.

        This is one of the reasons these plates do not have long shelf life for
        re-use. Storage for possible re-use may benefit from keeping the plates sealed
        with a slight bit of moisture added.

        You may be able to flatten the curl by soaking the plate again in warm
        water, though I haven't tried this enough to give careful advice on timing or
        water temperature....

        Best wishes,
        Tom


        Tom Parson
        Now It's Up To You Publications
        157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
        (303) 777-8951 home
        (720) 480-5358 cell phone
        http://members.aol.com/typetom


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Gerald Lange
        Daniel I ve not encountered this but in the early years of photopolymer (1960s) they used a carbon dioxide bath to revitalize the plates. Nothing like that
        Message 3 of 27 , Feb 3 7:27 PM
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          Daniel

          I've not encountered this but in the early years of photopolymer
          (1960s) they used a "carbon dioxide bath" to revitalize the plates.
          Nothing like that is available today but mainly I suspect because
          plates are considered disposable. Basically, save your film negs.

          The photopolymerization process never really stops and there are
          environmental issues as well ("ozone attack" is the primary culprit)
          and thus plates lose their resilience and tack fairly quickly. The
          process can be halted somewhat by longer post exposure and delayed by
          the use of antiozonants but I don't know that it makes any real sense
          to store them indefinitely though, since once the tack and resilience
          wanes, they no longer retain their original printing qualities.

          I'm assuming you are reusing plates? If not, contact your platemaker.

          Gerald
          http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


          >
          > I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates
          and sheet adhesive
          > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the
          base. What could cause
          > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I
          have really heavy areas of
          > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it
          up a bit will these things sit
          > flat?
          >
          > Daniel Morris
          > The Arm Letterpress
          > Brooklyn, NY
          >
        • Charles D. Jones
          Plates curl on the etching press when there is excessive pressure on top and something soft underneath. Sometimes it is useful to print with a felt blanket
          Message 4 of 27 , Feb 3 9:24 PM
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            Plates curl on the etching press when there is excessive pressure on top
            and something soft underneath. Sometimes it is useful to print with a felt
            blanket under the paper with the plate placed face down onto it. The plate
            will curl and have to be straightened again before inking. Is your
            packing krimlon, or soft. Are you using a platen press or roller? It seems
            that the softer plastic plates, printed with a bit of extra pressure for
            the solid areas might want to curl. If it is cold and the surface is
            dry and still soft with moisture in the lower part of the plate would
            have a propensity to curl.
            Think about how one curls ribbons or strips of paper by pulling them
            over the edge of a table.
            Either stretching or shrinking will cause it to happen.
            Try a bit of ink reducer and ease up on the pressure and see if that
            helps.
            Charles

            On 2/3/07, featherweightpress <featherweightpress@...> wrote:
            >
            > I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates and
            > sheet adhesive
            > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the base.
            > What could cause
            > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I have
            > really heavy areas of
            > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it up a bit
            > will these things sit
            > flat?
            >
            > Daniel Morris
            > The Arm Letterpress
            > Brooklyn, NY
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Daniel Morris
            Gerald and list, Thanks for the input and suggestions. I should have mentioned these are brand new plates from Boxcar. These are only the second plates I
            Message 5 of 27 , Feb 4 10:17 AM
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              Gerald and list,
              Thanks for the input and suggestions. I should have mentioned these are brand new plates from Boxcar. These are only the second plates I have ordered and I had the same problem with the last ones, only to a lesser and more manageable degree. This time the curling is causing the plate to pull away from the adhesive backing and lift off the base at the edges to the point where the dead area near the edge is sitting above type high and inking.
              This is very frustrating because this is a job for a friend who is very eager to drop his already finished records in these jackets!

              Daniel Morris
              The Arm Letterpress
              Brooklyn, NY


              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Gerald Lange <Bieler@...>
              To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 7:27:28 PM
              Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Plastic Plates Curling...













              Daniel



              I've not encountered this but in the early years of photopolymer

              (1960s) they used a "carbon dioxide bath" to revitalize the plates.

              Nothing like that is available today but mainly I suspect because

              plates are considered disposable. Basically, save your film negs.



              The photopolymerization process never really stops and there are

              environmental issues as well ("ozone attack" is the primary culprit)

              and thus plates lose their resilience and tack fairly quickly. The

              process can be halted somewhat by longer post exposure and delayed by

              the use of antiozonants but I don't know that it makes any real sense

              to store them indefinitely though, since once the tack and resilience

              wanes, they no longer retain their original printing qualities.



              I'm assuming you are reusing plates? If not, contact your platemaker.



              Gerald

              http://BielerPress. blogspot. com



              >

              > I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates

              and sheet adhesive

              > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the

              base. What could cause

              > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I

              have really heavy areas of

              > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it

              up a bit will these things sit

              > flat?

              >

              > Daniel Morris

              > The Arm Letterpress

              > Brooklyn, NY

              >














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            • Gerald Lange
              Daniel My best guess would be that it has to do somehow with humidity and temperature? Completely unrelated. But I know you recondition Vandercooks and have a
              Message 6 of 27 , Feb 4 10:36 AM
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                Daniel

                My best guess would be that it has to do somehow with humidity and
                temperature?

                Completely unrelated. But I know you recondition Vandercooks and have
                a question. Any suggestions on taking a 320G apart to get it out of a
                room that only has a standard door frame. I assume complete
                disassembly and turning the frame on its side? This is a press located
                at a LA educational facility and they just want it out of there. The
                press got walled in at some point. I've looked at it and it appears to
                be fully intact, clean except for lack of use, with a lot of the
                extras they provided for that model.

                Gerald
                http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                >
                > Gerald and list,
                > Thanks for the input and suggestions. I should have mentioned these
                are brand new plates from Boxcar. These are only the second plates I
                have ordered and I had the same problem with the last ones, only to a
                lesser and more manageable degree. This time the curling is causing
                the plate to pull away from the adhesive backing and lift off the base
                at the edges to the point where the dead area near the edge is sitting
                above type high and inking.
                > This is very frustrating because this is a job for a friend who is
                very eager to drop his already finished records in these jackets!
                >
                > Daniel Morris
                > The Arm Letterpress
                > Brooklyn, NY
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: Gerald Lange <Bieler@...>
                > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 7:27:28 PM
                > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Plastic Plates Curling...
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Daniel
                >
                >
                >
                > I've not encountered this but in the early years of photopolymer
                >
                > (1960s) they used a "carbon dioxide bath" to revitalize the plates.
                >
                > Nothing like that is available today but mainly I suspect because
                >
                > plates are considered disposable. Basically, save your film negs.
                >
                >
                >
                > The photopolymerization process never really stops and there are
                >
                > environmental issues as well ("ozone attack" is the primary culprit)
                >
                > and thus plates lose their resilience and tack fairly quickly. The
                >
                > process can be halted somewhat by longer post exposure and delayed by
                >
                > the use of antiozonants but I don't know that it makes any real sense
                >
                > to store them indefinitely though, since once the tack and resilience
                >
                > wanes, they no longer retain their original printing qualities.
                >
                >
                >
                > I'm assuming you are reusing plates? If not, contact your platemaker.
                >
                >
                >
                > Gerald
                >
                > http://BielerPress. blogspot. com
                >
                >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates
                >
                > and sheet adhesive
                >
                > > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the
                >
                > base. What could cause
                >
                > > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I
                >
                > have really heavy areas of
                >
                > > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it
                >
                > up a bit will these things sit
                >
                > > flat?
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Daniel Morris
                >
                > > The Arm Letterpress
                >
                > > Brooklyn, NY
                >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • Daniel Morris
                Gerald, The 320G is very simple Vandercook. The trip mechanism can be disconnected and disassembled, the shelving box can be removed with a few screws, the
                Message 7 of 27 , Feb 4 2:44 PM
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                  Gerald,
                  The 320G is very simple Vandercook. The trip mechanism can be disconnected and disassembled, the shelving box can be removed with a few screws, the feed boards taken off, the cylinder rolled off the end of the bed (mark the teeth first) then you can remove the press bed from the legs which are tied together with threaded rods. I have never taken one of my presses this far, but Arie Koelewyn and Dave Celani did it with a 325G not too long ago. That press is identical to the 320G with the exception of its width.
                  Below I have attached some text from Arie's report that may help you a bit. There is a .pdf of the manual for this press on the Boxcar site (http://www.boxcarpress.com/flywheel/) which might help you to visualise it.
                  By all means grab this press if you can. And when you troubleshooting it let me know.

                  Daniel Morris
                  The Arm Letterpress
                  Brooklyn, NY


                  From Arie:
                  I promised you all a report on the move of the Vandercook 325A (SN:
                  20307) that Lance Williams found in Frankenmuth, MI and reported on
                  this list a while ago. The press is now safely in my garage and the
                  move went fairly smoothly. It still needs to be reassembled, but that
                  doesn't seem it will be as tricky as removing it from the basement it
                  was found in. You might recall that the press was in the basement of a
                  touristy country gift store. The press had been used to print bumper
                  stickers for sale to the tourists until last December.

                  The press had to be disassembled to get through a 34" choke point on the
                  way to the back stairs. Before the move I had assembled an A-frame
                  cradle for the bed and a shallow cradle that looked like kids sled to
                  hold the cylinder. These went down the stairs the press had to come up,
                  so I was pretty confident that they'd come up again with the press parts
                  on them.

                  I was very lucky to have three good friends to help me with the move.
                  Joe Warren is probably familiar to most on the list. He and I live only
                  a few miles apart and often help each other out. Fred Stahmner is a
                  friend from work who can't quite figure out what all the fuss is about
                  all of this cast iron and lead, but was willing to lend a hand.
                  Finally, but not least, is new friend Dave Celani, also from this list.
                  I'd never met Dave before this move, but he wrote and volunteered to
                  meet us at the press and spent the first day helping us disassemble the
                  Vandercook and getting the parts into their cradles. His toolkit is
                  much better than mine and made the whole process much easier than it
                  might have been. Thanks guys!

                  The first order of the day was to move the press under a massive I-beam
                  near the side of the room. We put two 2x6 skids under it and used three
                  1" iron pipes to roll it into place. Next was removal of the cylinder
                  carriage. At first we tried to remove it from the back of the press.
                  We removed the stops but it was still binding on something and wouldn't
                  go back further than the gripper trip assembly. We removed a few more
                  small bits, but it was no go. So finally we turned the press around and
                  went off the front. That worked. When the cylinder was at the end of
                  the press we rigged a number of straps around it and suspended it from a
                  come-along . As we were lowering to down to the cradle the come-along
                  slipped about 6 inches and provided the scariest moment of the move.
                  After a couple of deep breaths, the cylinder was slowly lowered to the
                  cradle on the floor. Next the bed was removed from the cabinet in
                  essentially the same manner, but we substituted a substantial chain
                  puller for the come-along . We rigged the cradle on the floor so that
                  the side of the A-frame it would rest upon was flat and lowered the bed
                  onto it after the cabinet had been pulled away by hand. Then the cradle
                  was pulled upright by the chain puller.

                  After the slow disassembly, moving the press through the choke point and
                  staging the pieces at the foot of the stairs went smoothly and quickly.
                  At that point Dave had to leave and the rest of us were hungry. The
                  three of us retreated next door to Zehnder's and had a family style
                  chicken dinner. Expensive but tasty and convenient. Though they did
                  put us scruffy looking types right next to the kitchen so most of the
                  other customers wouldn't have to look at us.

                  When we were fed, rehydrated and rested a bit, we went back to the
                  store. The owner had identified a number of other letterpress items
                  that he did not want any more. I volunteered to take anything he didn't
                  want. In addition to the press, there was a 30" "Perfect Gem" paper
                  cutter, a table saw (brand unknown, but not a Hammond), a Bradley
                  stencil cutting machine, 4 or 5 slug cutter, 3 manual rule miterers and
                  one powered, one combination slug cutter/miterer, a Golding padding
                  press and a few miscellaneous bits. We also found a few Vandercook
                  parts including a chase. These were carried upstairs and taken home at
                  the end of the first day.

                  I had arranged to borrow a Ford F350 pickup from another friend at work
                  and a flatbed trailer from the father of another. The truck owner had
                  picked up the trailer and we were about to trade car keys when that all
                  fell apart. He was summarily fired that afternoon and the truck and
                  trailer both went home. A few quick phone calls and I had arranged with
                  the trailer's owner to also borrow the van he uses to pull the trailer,
                  but only for one day. So the second day of this adventure began with a
                  westward drive to pick up van and trailer and then drive eastward to
                  Frankenmuth. We (Joe, Fred & I) arrived without incident, despite my
                  lack of experience in driving with a trailer. We had arranged to meet
                  at the store with a tow truck operator to help pull the heavy bits up
                  the stairs. They brought along two tow trucks and a flat bed.

                  First the flat bed pulled up to the loading dock and we rolled the paper
                  cutter (which was on ground level) with a pallet jack out the dock door
                  and onto the flat bed. From the flatbed truck onto the trailer was as
                  easy as it gets. We didn't even have to take anything off the cutter.
                  Next was pulling the press bed up the stairs and out through a door in
                  the left side of the stairwell. The tow truck operators (Reinert &
                  Bender) used one truck to pull it up the stairs (by sticking its boom
                  into the doorway) and a second to twist it around and out the door. It
                  was a tight fit but after an hour or so it was sitting on the ground
                  outside. These guys were awesome: careful and methodical. The cabinet
                  went up by hand and the cradle with the cylinder went up with a single
                  truck's winch. We loaded the bed onto the flat bed truck and then onto
                  the trailer. The cylinder and cabinet went into place by hand. By then
                  the tow truck crew (Dennis, Bob and Larry) had been there three hours.
                  Luckily it had been a slow day for them, so that wasn't a problem. I
                  paid them, gave them each a nice tip and felt I got a real good deal for
                  my money.

                  With the trailer all loaded up, all we needed to do was tie things down
                  and drive home. That was when it decided to rain. Buckets of rain.
                  Not really any time to cover things and not much to cover things with
                  anyway. This was my biggest mistake. Rain wasn't in the forecast and I
                  didn't think to bring plastic sheeting to cover the press parts.
                  Everything got soaked. A half hour later the rain let up and we
                  finished tying things down and then drove for home.

                  Unloading and storing everything in my garage was anticlimactic and
                  fairly straightforward. No more room for cars in my garage!

                  With the exception of the rain, everything went pretty much as I planned
                  it. No major disasters and another press that was going to get walled
                  up and forgotten, or scrapped, will have quite a few more years of
                  useful life as a printing press. With luck it will end up at a new
                  Book Arts program here in town.

                  I have ideas for doing this kind of thing better next time, but it may
                  be a while. I'm full up for now.

                  The careful reader will have noticed that we left the saw behind. It's
                  buried in hard to get to corner of the basement under a bunch of junk.
                  By the end of day two we didn't have much oomph left (not to mention tie
                  down straps) and decided to come back for the saw another day. The
                  store owner was very pleased to get rid of all this stuff and get much
                  more room that he could convert into retail space. The saw is out of
                  his way and he was amenable to waiting a couple of months until I can
                  get to it.

                  ---Arie Koelewyn
                  The Paper Airplane Press
                  East Lansing, MI
                  USA

                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Gerald Lange <Bieler@...>
                  To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2007 10:36:16 AM
                  Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Plastic Plates Curling...













                  Daniel



                  My best guess would be that it has to do somehow with humidity and

                  temperature?



                  Completely unrelated. But I know you recondition Vandercooks and have

                  a question. Any suggestions on taking a 320G apart to get it out of a

                  room that only has a standard door frame. I assume complete

                  disassembly and turning the frame on its side? This is a press located

                  at a LA educational facility and they just want it out of there. The

                  press got walled in at some point. I've looked at it and it appears to

                  be fully intact, clean except for lack of use, with a lot of the

                  extras they provided for that model.



                  Gerald

                  http://BielerPress. blogspot. com



                  >

                  > Gerald and list,

                  > Thanks for the input and suggestions. I should have mentioned these

                  are brand new plates from Boxcar. These are only the second plates I

                  have ordered and I had the same problem with the last ones, only to a

                  lesser and more manageable degree. This time the curling is causing

                  the plate to pull away from the adhesive backing and lift off the base

                  at the edges to the point where the dead area near the edge is sitting

                  above type high and inking.

                  > This is very frustrating because this is a job for a friend who is

                  very eager to drop his already finished records in these jackets!

                  >

                  > Daniel Morris

                  > The Arm Letterpress

                  > Brooklyn, NY

                  >

                  >

                  > ----- Original Message ----

                  > From: Gerald Lange <Bieler@...>

                  > To: PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com

                  > Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 7:27:28 PM

                  > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Plastic Plates Curling...

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  > Daniel

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  > I've not encountered this but in the early years of photopolymer

                  >

                  > (1960s) they used a "carbon dioxide bath" to revitalize the plates.

                  >

                  > Nothing like that is available today but mainly I suspect because

                  >

                  > plates are considered disposable. Basically, save your film negs.

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  > The photopolymerization process never really stops and there are

                  >

                  > environmental issues as well ("ozone attack" is the primary culprit)

                  >

                  > and thus plates lose their resilience and tack fairly quickly. The

                  >

                  > process can be halted somewhat by longer post exposure and delayed by

                  >

                  > the use of antiozonants but I don't know that it makes any real sense

                  >

                  > to store them indefinitely though, since once the tack and resilience

                  >

                  > wanes, they no longer retain their original printing qualities.

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  > I'm assuming you are reusing plates? If not, contact your platemaker.

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  > Gerald

                  >

                  > http://BielerPress. blogspot. com

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  > >

                  >

                  > > I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates

                  >

                  > and sheet adhesive

                  >

                  > > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the

                  >

                  > base. What could cause

                  >

                  > > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I

                  >

                  > have really heavy areas of

                  >

                  > > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it

                  >

                  > up a bit will these things sit

                  >

                  > > flat?

                  >

                  > >

                  >

                  > > Daniel Morris

                  >

                  > > The Arm Letterpress

                  >

                  > > Brooklyn, NY

                  >

                  > >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Gerald Lange
                  Daniel Thank you very much. I don t want the press for myself (well, I wouldn t mind it, but my wife would kill me). With this information though I think I can
                  Message 8 of 27 , Feb 4 3:05 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Daniel

                    Thank you very much. I don't want the press for myself (well, I
                    wouldn't mind it, but my wife would kill me). With this information
                    though I think I can convince the facility to let someone (who might
                    want it) come in and get it out rather than have the facility pay a
                    rigger and it end up god knows where.

                    Gerald
                    http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                    >
                    > Gerald,
                    > The 320G is very simple Vandercook. The trip mechanism can be
                    disconnected and disassembled, the shelving box can be removed with a
                    few screws, the feed boards taken off, the cylinder rolled off the end
                    of the bed (mark the teeth first) then you can remove the press bed
                    from the legs which are tied together with threaded rods. I have
                    never taken one of my presses this far, but Arie Koelewyn and Dave
                    Celani did it with a 325G not too long ago. That press is identical
                    to the 320G with the exception of its width.
                    > Below I have attached some text from Arie's report that may help you
                    a bit. There is a .pdf of the manual for this press on the Boxcar
                    site (http://www.boxcarpress.com/flywheel/) which might help you to
                    visualise it.
                    > By all means grab this press if you can. And when you
                    troubleshooting it let me know.
                    >
                    > Daniel Morris
                    > The Arm Letterpress
                    > Brooklyn, NY
                    >
                  • Arie Koelewyn
                    Gerald & Daniel: That press still is not reassembled. Oh the joys of working with an academic bureaucracy. I have some photos of the press in pieces in the
                    Message 9 of 27 , Feb 4 3:41 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Gerald & Daniel:

                      That press still is not reassembled. Oh the joys of working with an
                      academic bureaucracy.

                      I have some photos of the press in pieces in the various cradles I built
                      for them. They're a bit fuzzy; I had dropped the camera into the river
                      for a few brief seconds shortly before this move and it appears the
                      condensation left a film of dirt somewhere in the works. The camera
                      gave up the ghost not long after.

                      Anyway let me know if you want to see them. There were plenty of
                      difficulties with this move, but disassembly wasn't one of them. Except
                      for the slippage in the come-along it went pretty smoothly.

                      ---Arie Koelewyn
                      The Paper Airplane Press
                      East Lansing, MI
                      USA



                      Gerald Lange wrote:
                      > Daniel
                      >
                      > Thank you very much. I don't want the press for myself (well, I
                      > wouldn't mind it, but my wife would kill me). With this information
                      > though I think I can convince the facility to let someone (who might
                      > want it) come in and get it out rather than have the facility pay a
                      > rigger and it end up god knows where.
                      >
                      > Gerald
                      > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >> Gerald,
                      >> The 320G is very simple Vandercook. The trip mechanism can be
                      >>
                      > disconnected and disassembled, the shelving box can be removed with a
                      > few screws, the feed boards taken off, the cylinder rolled off the end
                      > of the bed (mark the teeth first) then you can remove the press bed
                      > from the legs which are tied together with threaded rods. I have
                      > never taken one of my presses this far, but Arie Koelewyn and Dave
                      > Celani did it with a 325G not too long ago. That press is identical
                      > to the 320G with the exception of its width.
                      >
                      >> Below I have attached some text from Arie's report that may help you
                      >>
                      > a bit. There is a .pdf of the manual for this press on the Boxcar
                      > site (http://www.boxcarpress.com/flywheel/) which might help you to
                      > visualise it.
                      >
                      >> By all means grab this press if you can. And when you
                      >>
                      > troubleshooting it let me know.
                      >
                      >> Daniel Morris
                      >> The Arm Letterpress
                      >> Brooklyn, NY
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • alex brooks
                      there s a 325G at the University art building that belongs to me. it s completely disassembled, with the bed on a heavy duty palette that s been sitting in a
                      Message 10 of 27 , Feb 4 3:51 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        there's a 325G at the University art building that "belongs" to me.
                        it's completely disassembled, with the bed on a heavy duty palette
                        that's been sitting in a hallway, unlocked & unprotected from thieves
                        or vandals for about 10 years. Soon I'll get a place to put it and
                        we'll move it out of there and reassemble it. It will double my max
                        printing size!

                        the press is odd in that there's an inking "plate" underneath the
                        feed board, and the inking rollers follow the impression cylinder
                        instead of leading it. One step away from hand-inking

                        one of these days,
                        alex
                        press817

                        On Feb 4, 2007, at 5:44 PM, Daniel Morris wrote:

                        > Gerald,
                        > The 320G is very simple Vandercook. The trip mechanism can be
                        > disconnected and disassembled, the shelving box can be removed with
                        > a few screws, the feed boards taken off, the cylinder rolled off
                        > the end of the bed (mark the teeth first) then you can remove the
                        > press bed from the legs which are tied together with threaded rods.
                        > I have never taken one of my presses this far, but Arie Koelewyn
                        > and Dave Celani did it with a 325G not too long ago. That press is
                        > identical to the 320G with the exception of its width.
                        > Below I have attached some text from Arie's report that may help
                        > you a bit. There is a .pdf of the manual for this press on the
                        > Boxcar site (http://www.boxcarpress.com/flywheel/) which might help
                        > you to visualise it.
                        > By all means grab this press if you can. And when you
                        > troubleshooting it let me know.
                        >
                        > Daniel Morris
                        > The Arm Letterpress
                        > Brooklyn, NY
                        >
                        > From Arie:
                        > I promised you all a report on the move of the Vandercook 325A (SN:
                        > 20307) that Lance Williams found in Frankenmuth, MI and reported on
                        > this list a while ago. The press is now safely in my garage and the
                        > move went fairly smoothly. It still needs to be reassembled, but that
                        > doesn't seem it will be as tricky as removing it from the basement it
                        > was found in. You might recall that the press was in the basement of a
                        > touristy country gift store. The press had been used to print bumper
                        > stickers for sale to the tourists until last December.
                        >
                        > The press had to be disassembled to get through a 34" choke point
                        > on the
                        > way to the back stairs. Before the move I had assembled an A-frame
                        > cradle for the bed and a shallow cradle that looked like kids sled to
                        > hold the cylinder. These went down the stairs the press had to come
                        > up,
                        > so I was pretty confident that they'd come up again with the press
                        > parts
                        > on them.
                        >
                        > I was very lucky to have three good friends to help me with the move.
                        > Joe Warren is probably familiar to most on the list. He and I live
                        > only
                        > a few miles apart and often help each other out. Fred Stahmner is a
                        > friend from work who can't quite figure out what all the fuss is about
                        > all of this cast iron and lead, but was willing to lend a hand.
                        > Finally, but not least, is new friend Dave Celani, also from this
                        > list.
                        > I'd never met Dave before this move, but he wrote and volunteered to
                        > meet us at the press and spent the first day helping us disassemble
                        > the
                        > Vandercook and getting the parts into their cradles. His toolkit is
                        > much better than mine and made the whole process much easier than it
                        > might have been. Thanks guys!
                        >
                        > The first order of the day was to move the press under a massive I-
                        > beam
                        > near the side of the room. We put two 2x6 skids under it and used
                        > three
                        > 1" iron pipes to roll it into place. Next was removal of the cylinder
                        > carriage. At first we tried to remove it from the back of the press.
                        > We removed the stops but it was still binding on something and
                        > wouldn't
                        > go back further than the gripper trip assembly. We removed a few more
                        > small bits, but it was no go. So finally we turned the press around
                        > and
                        > went off the front. That worked. When the cylinder was at the end of
                        > the press we rigged a number of straps around it and suspended it
                        > from a
                        > come-along . As we were lowering to down to the cradle the come-along
                        > slipped about 6 inches and provided the scariest moment of the move.
                        > After a couple of deep breaths, the cylinder was slowly lowered to the
                        > cradle on the floor. Next the bed was removed from the cabinet in
                        > essentially the same manner, but we substituted a substantial chain
                        > puller for the come-along . We rigged the cradle on the floor so that
                        > the side of the A-frame it would rest upon was flat and lowered the
                        > bed
                        > onto it after the cabinet had been pulled away by hand. Then the
                        > cradle
                        > was pulled upright by the chain puller.
                        >
                        > After the slow disassembly, moving the press through the choke
                        > point and
                        > staging the pieces at the foot of the stairs went smoothly and
                        > quickly.
                        > At that point Dave had to leave and the rest of us were hungry. The
                        > three of us retreated next door to Zehnder's and had a family style
                        > chicken dinner. Expensive but tasty and convenient. Though they did
                        > put us scruffy looking types right next to the kitchen so most of the
                        > other customers wouldn't have to look at us.
                        >
                        > When we were fed, rehydrated and rested a bit, we went back to the
                        > store. The owner had identified a number of other letterpress items
                        > that he did not want any more. I volunteered to take anything he
                        > didn't
                        > want. In addition to the press, there was a 30" "Perfect Gem" paper
                        > cutter, a table saw (brand unknown, but not a Hammond), a Bradley
                        > stencil cutting machine, 4 or 5 slug cutter, 3 manual rule miterers
                        > and
                        > one powered, one combination slug cutter/miterer, a Golding padding
                        > press and a few miscellaneous bits. We also found a few Vandercook
                        > parts including a chase. These were carried upstairs and taken home at
                        > the end of the first day.
                        >
                        > I had arranged to borrow a Ford F350 pickup from another friend at
                        > work
                        > and a flatbed trailer from the father of another. The truck owner had
                        > picked up the trailer and we were about to trade car keys when that
                        > all
                        > fell apart. He was summarily fired that afternoon and the truck and
                        > trailer both went home. A few quick phone calls and I had arranged
                        > with
                        > the trailer's owner to also borrow the van he uses to pull the
                        > trailer,
                        > but only for one day. So the second day of this adventure began with a
                        > westward drive to pick up van and trailer and then drive eastward to
                        > Frankenmuth. We (Joe, Fred & I) arrived without incident, despite my
                        > lack of experience in driving with a trailer. We had arranged to meet
                        > at the store with a tow truck operator to help pull the heavy bits up
                        > the stairs. They brought along two tow trucks and a flat bed.
                        >
                        > First the flat bed pulled up to the loading dock and we rolled the
                        > paper
                        > cutter (which was on ground level) with a pallet jack out the dock
                        > door
                        > and onto the flat bed. From the flatbed truck onto the trailer was as
                        > easy as it gets. We didn't even have to take anything off the cutter.
                        > Next was pulling the press bed up the stairs and out through a door in
                        > the left side of the stairwell. The tow truck operators (Reinert &
                        > Bender) used one truck to pull it up the stairs (by sticking its boom
                        > into the doorway) and a second to twist it around and out the door. It
                        > was a tight fit but after an hour or so it was sitting on the ground
                        > outside. These guys were awesome: careful and methodical. The cabinet
                        > went up by hand and the cradle with the cylinder went up with a single
                        > truck's winch. We loaded the bed onto the flat bed truck and then onto
                        > the trailer. The cylinder and cabinet went into place by hand. By then
                        > the tow truck crew (Dennis, Bob and Larry) had been there three hours.
                        > Luckily it had been a slow day for them, so that wasn't a problem. I
                        > paid them, gave them each a nice tip and felt I got a real good
                        > deal for
                        > my money.
                        >
                        > With the trailer all loaded up, all we needed to do was tie things
                        > down
                        > and drive home. That was when it decided to rain. Buckets of rain.
                        > Not really any time to cover things and not much to cover things with
                        > anyway. This was my biggest mistake. Rain wasn't in the forecast and I
                        > didn't think to bring plastic sheeting to cover the press parts.
                        > Everything got soaked. A half hour later the rain let up and we
                        > finished tying things down and then drove for home.
                        >
                        > Unloading and storing everything in my garage was anticlimactic and
                        > fairly straightforward. No more room for cars in my garage!
                        >
                        > With the exception of the rain, everything went pretty much as I
                        > planned
                        > it. No major disasters and another press that was going to get walled
                        > up and forgotten, or scrapped, will have quite a few more years of
                        > useful life as a printing press. With luck it will end up at a new
                        > Book Arts program here in town.
                        >
                        > I have ideas for doing this kind of thing better next time, but it may
                        > be a while. I'm full up for now.
                        >
                        > The careful reader will have noticed that we left the saw behind. It's
                        > buried in hard to get to corner of the basement under a bunch of junk.
                        > By the end of day two we didn't have much oomph left (not to
                        > mention tie
                        > down straps) and decided to come back for the saw another day. The
                        > store owner was very pleased to get rid of all this stuff and get much
                        > more room that he could convert into retail space. The saw is out of
                        > his way and he was amenable to waiting a couple of months until I can
                        > get to it.
                        >
                        > ---Arie Koelewyn
                        > The Paper Airplane Press
                        > East Lansing, MI
                        > USA
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message ----
                        > From: Gerald Lange <Bieler@...>
                        > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2007 10:36:16 AM
                        > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Plastic Plates Curling...
                        >
                        > Daniel
                        >
                        > My best guess would be that it has to do somehow with humidity and
                        >
                        > temperature?
                        >
                        > Completely unrelated. But I know you recondition Vandercooks and have
                        >
                        > a question. Any suggestions on taking a 320G apart to get it out of a
                        >
                        > room that only has a standard door frame. I assume complete
                        >
                        > disassembly and turning the frame on its side? This is a press located
                        >
                        > at a LA educational facility and they just want it out of there. The
                        >
                        > press got walled in at some point. I've looked at it and it appears to
                        >
                        > be fully intact, clean except for lack of use, with a lot of the
                        >
                        > extras they provided for that model.
                        >
                        > Gerald
                        >
                        > http://BielerPress. blogspot. com
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Gerald and list,
                        >
                        > > Thanks for the input and suggestions. I should have mentioned these
                        >
                        > are brand new plates from Boxcar. These are only the second plates I
                        >
                        > have ordered and I had the same problem with the last ones, only to a
                        >
                        > lesser and more manageable degree. This time the curling is causing
                        >
                        > the plate to pull away from the adhesive backing and lift off the base
                        >
                        > at the edges to the point where the dead area near the edge is sitting
                        >
                        > above type high and inking.
                        >
                        > > This is very frustrating because this is a job for a friend who is
                        >
                        > very eager to drop his already finished records in these jackets!
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Daniel Morris
                        >
                        > > The Arm Letterpress
                        >
                        > > Brooklyn, NY
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > ----- Original Message ----
                        >
                        > > From: Gerald Lange <Bieler@...>
                        >
                        > > To: PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com
                        >
                        > > Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 7:27:28 PM
                        >
                        > > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Plastic Plates Curling...
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Daniel
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > I've not encountered this but in the early years of photopolymer
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > (1960s) they used a "carbon dioxide bath" to revitalize the plates.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Nothing like that is available today but mainly I suspect because
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > plates are considered disposable. Basically, save your film negs.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > The photopolymerization process never really stops and there are
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > environmental issues as well ("ozone attack" is the primary culprit)
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > and thus plates lose their resilience and tack fairly quickly. The
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > process can be halted somewhat by longer post exposure and
                        > delayed by
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > the use of antiozonants but I don't know that it makes any real
                        > sense
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > to store them indefinitely though, since once the tack and
                        > resilience
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > wanes, they no longer retain their original printing qualities.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > I'm assuming you are reusing plates? If not, contact your
                        > platemaker.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Gerald
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > http://BielerPress. blogspot. com
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > and sheet adhesive
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > base. What could cause
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > have really heavy areas of
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > up a bit will these things sit
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > flat?
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > Daniel Morris
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > The Arm Letterpress
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > Brooklyn, NY
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > <!--
                        >
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                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                        >
                        > > Want to start your own business?
                        >
                        > > Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
                        >
                        > > http://smallbusines s.yahoo.com/ r-index
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
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                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • wa0dfw@copper.net
                        This is not a long term solution to your problem, but to get the job done, fasten the plate to a piece of die plywood or similar, then shim from behind to
                        Message 11 of 27 , Feb 4 4:29 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          This is not a "long term" solution to your problem, but to get the
                          job done, fasten the plate to a piece of die plywood or similar, then
                          shim from behind to bring it to type high.

                          Another good plywood is something called Baltic Birch, another "apple
                          ply", but maybe you can find an unused cutting die and salvage some
                          plywood from it.

                          You can nail the edges in non-print areas similar to the nailing they
                          do on zinc and mag plates. You might glue it first with some high
                          grade contact cement such as Barge, which is used extensively in the
                          shoe making/repair industry.

                          This might get the job out, your customer happy, and the "heat" off
                          while you figure out what the real problem is.

                          Good luck,

                          Mo

                          >Gerald and list,
                          >Thanks for the input and suggestions. I should have mentioned these
                          >are brand new plates from Boxcar. These are only the second plates I
                          >have ordered and I had the same problem with the last ones, only to a
                          >lesser and more manageable degree. This time the curling is causing
                          >the plate to pull away from the adhesive backing and lift off the
                          >base at the edges to the point where the dead area near the edge is
                          >sitting above type high and inking.
                          >This is very frustrating because this is a job for a friend who is
                          >very eager to drop his already finished records in these jackets!
                          >
                          >Daniel Morris
                          >The Arm Letterpress
                          >Brooklyn, NY
                          >
                          >
                          >----- Original Message ----
                          >From: Gerald Lange <Bieler@...>
                          >To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                          >Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 7:27:28 PM
                          >Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Plastic Plates Curling...
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Daniel
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >I've not encountered this but in the early years of photopolymer
                          >
                          >(1960s) they used a "carbon dioxide bath" to revitalize the plates.
                          >
                          >Nothing like that is available today but mainly I suspect because
                          >
                          >plates are considered disposable. Basically, save your film negs.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >The photopolymerization process never really stops and there are
                          >
                          >environmental issues as well ("ozone attack" is the primary culprit)
                          >
                          >and thus plates lose their resilience and tack fairly quickly. The
                          >
                          >process can be halted somewhat by longer post exposure and delayed by
                          >
                          >the use of antiozonants but I don't know that it makes any real sense
                          >
                          >to store them indefinitely though, since once the tack and resilience
                          >
                          >wanes, they no longer retain their original printing qualities.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >I'm assuming you are reusing plates? If not, contact your platemaker.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >Gerald
                          >
                          >http://BielerPress. blogspot. com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >>
                          >
                          >> I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates
                          >
                          >and sheet adhesive
                          >
                          >> backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the
                          >
                          >base. What could cause
                          >
                          >> this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I
                          >
                          >have really heavy areas of
                          >
                          >> solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it
                          >
                          >up a bit will these things sit
                          >
                          >> flat?
                          >
                          >>
                          >
                          >> Daniel Morris
                          >
                          >> The Arm Letterpress
                          >
                          >> Brooklyn, NY
                          >
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          >
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                        • Bethany Carter
                          Hi Daniel, You mentioned in an earlier post that your plates have heavy solid areas in them. Are these solid areas close to the edge of the plate? I have a few
                          Message 12 of 27 , Feb 4 7:40 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Daniel,

                            You mentioned in an earlier post that your plates have heavy solid areas
                            in them. Are these solid areas close to the edge of the plate? I have a few
                            plates (adhesive, from Boxcar) that have solid areas that are close to the
                            edge and I sometimes have problems getting them to stick all the way down on
                            the base while printing. My advice is certainly not as sophisticated as the
                            others that have responded, but I have had better luck with this issue by
                            making sure there is a wide area of dead space around these solid areas and
                            that seems to help anchor the plate to the base to make the solid areas
                            stick all the way down and not curl up. Just something to try if nothing
                            else works.

                            Good luck,

                            Bethany
                            Proprietor, ThistleBerry Press


                            >From: Daniel Morris <featherweightpress@...>
                            >Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                            >To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                            >Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Plastic Plates Curling...
                            >Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 10:17:59 -0800 (PST)
                            >
                            >Gerald and list,
                            >Thanks for the input and suggestions. I should have mentioned these are
                            >brand new plates from Boxcar. These are only the second plates I have
                            >ordered and I had the same problem with the last ones, only to a lesser and
                            >more manageable degree. This time the curling is causing the plate to pull
                            >away from the adhesive backing and lift off the base at the edges to the
                            >point where the dead area near the edge is sitting above type high and
                            >inking.
                            >This is very frustrating because this is a job for a friend who is very
                            >eager to drop his already finished records in these jackets!
                            >
                            >Daniel Morris
                            >The Arm Letterpress
                            >Brooklyn, NY
                            >
                            >
                            >----- Original Message ----
                            >From: Gerald Lange <Bieler@...>
                            >To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                            >Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 7:27:28 PM
                            >Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Plastic Plates Curling...
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Daniel
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >I've not encountered this but in the early years of photopolymer
                            >
                            >(1960s) they used a "carbon dioxide bath" to revitalize the plates.
                            >
                            >Nothing like that is available today but mainly I suspect because
                            >
                            >plates are considered disposable. Basically, save your film negs.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >The photopolymerization process never really stops and there are
                            >
                            >environmental issues as well ("ozone attack" is the primary culprit)
                            >
                            >and thus plates lose their resilience and tack fairly quickly. The
                            >
                            >process can be halted somewhat by longer post exposure and delayed by
                            >
                            >the use of antiozonants but I don't know that it makes any real sense
                            >
                            >to store them indefinitely though, since once the tack and resilience
                            >
                            >wanes, they no longer retain their original printing qualities.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >I'm assuming you are reusing plates? If not, contact your platemaker.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >Gerald
                            >
                            >http://BielerPress. blogspot. com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates
                            >
                            >and sheet adhesive
                            >
                            > > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the
                            >
                            >base. What could cause
                            >
                            > > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I
                            >
                            >have really heavy areas of
                            >
                            > > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it
                            >
                            >up a bit will these things sit
                            >
                            > > flat?
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > Daniel Morris
                            >
                            > > The Arm Letterpress
                            >
                            > > Brooklyn, NY
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                          • John G. Henry
                            Daniel: I also have experienced this curling in my plates at times. I resolved the problem by doubling up on both my drying time after washout, and the post
                            Message 13 of 27 , Feb 5 9:02 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Daniel:

                              I also have experienced this curling in my plates at times. I
                              resolved the problem by doubling up on both my drying time after
                              washout, and the post exposure time. I think they were re-absorbing
                              moisture (or drying out), changing the dimensions of the
                              image areas, causing heavy solid areas to cup up and leaving the
                              plate material curly as you describe.

                              Try a longer dry, but not too high a temperature, and give them a
                              long post exposure and see if that resolves your issues.

                              John G. Henry
                              Cedar Creek Press

                              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "featherweightpress"
                              <featherweightpress@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates
                              and sheet adhesive
                              > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the
                              base. What could cause
                              > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I
                              have really heavy areas of
                              > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it
                              up a bit will these things sit
                              > flat?
                              >
                              > Daniel Morris
                              > The Arm Letterpress
                              > Brooklyn, NY
                              >
                            • Daniel Morris
                              John, That sounds exactly like what I am experiencing. I don t yet have facilities to process plates in house so I will have to speak to my platemaker about
                              Message 14 of 27 , Feb 5 1:29 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                John,
                                That sounds exactly like what I am experiencing. I don't yet have facilities to process plates in house so I will have to speak to my platemaker about your recommendations. I suspect they are not accustomed to setting their machines to deal with such large areas of solid.

                                Daniel Morris
                                The Arm Letterpress
                                Brooklyn, NY



                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: John G. Henry <JohnH@...>
                                To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, February 5, 2007 9:02:58 AM
                                Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Plastic Plates Curling...













                                Daniel:



                                I also have experienced this curling in my plates at times. I

                                resolved the problem by doubling up on both my drying time after

                                washout, and the post exposure time. I think they were re-absorbing

                                moisture (or drying out), changing the dimensions of the

                                image areas, causing heavy solid areas to cup up and leaving the

                                plate material curly as you describe.



                                Try a longer dry, but not too high a temperature, and give them a

                                long post exposure and see if that resolves your issues.



                                John G. Henry

                                Cedar Creek Press



                                --- In PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com, "featherweightpress "

                                <featherweightpress @...> wrote:

                                >

                                > I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates

                                and sheet adhesive

                                > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the

                                base. What could cause

                                > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I

                                have really heavy areas of

                                > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it

                                up a bit will these things sit

                                > flat?

                                >

                                > Daniel Morris

                                > The Arm Letterpress

                                > Brooklyn, NY

                                >














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                              • Harold Kyle
                                Dan: I m sorry to hear the problems you re having with the plates. I wish I could have responded earlier, but the heavy snow here left us short- staffed and I
                                Message 15 of 27 , Feb 5 2:30 PM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Dan:

                                  I'm sorry to hear the problems you're having with the plates. I wish
                                  I could have responded earlier, but the heavy snow here left us short-
                                  staffed and I didn't get a chance to write earlier. Feel free to call
                                  us directly with any concerns about our plates when they happen!

                                  The cold shouldn't affect the plates, but the dryness of the winter
                                  weather will cause the plates to curl. When the plates dry out, their
                                  surface hardens and tends to curl inward, especially on large solids
                                  on the KF152 plates. Thinner plastic-backed plates (like our 94FL)
                                  don't tend to have this problem, nor will plates with ligher
                                  coverage. This problem tends to flare up in the winter when the air
                                  is dry for many of our customers. Usually the impression of the press
                                  flattens the plate, but in your case it sounds like the plate isn't
                                  sticking at all.

                                  There are two steps to prevent this problem:
                                  * Humidity helps. Run a humidifier in your shop in winter to make
                                  sure the plates aren't losing moisture.
                                  * Keep your plates bagged (to keep the plates in constant humidity)
                                  and out out light (to keep them from hardening).

                                  I have one solution that might get you through this run:
                                  * If your plates have hardened and curled, you can re-moisten them to
                                  make them more flexible. Since water will damage the adhesive, I
                                  recommend you place the plate polymer-side up on a flat surface and
                                  lay a wet towel on top. Let the plate sit, moistening, for five to
                                  ten minutes. You can then dry the plate by blotting it dry with a
                                  lint-free rag and following up with a hair drier. The plate should be
                                  more supple and flatten out when the press goes to impression.

                                  If you continue to have problems with your plate, give me a call. We
                                  guarantee the plates for six months after processing, so we can offer
                                  a replacement if you've stored your plates properly and still have
                                  this problem. This must be the order we shipped right before Christmas?

                                  Good luck, and let me know how you fare.

                                  Harold

                                  PS. I just talked with a customer whose base was so cold, she
                                  suspects the adhesive wasn't sticking well. The information on our
                                  adhesive doesn't have a temperature range, but it could be that the
                                  base is so cold that the rubber-based adhesive can't stick. This is
                                  conjecture, but maybe if you heated the base, it would be more
                                  receptive to the adhesive?
                                  I will try to follow up with the manufacturer about this question
                                  tomorrow.

                                  On Feb 3, 2007, at 8:22 PM, featherweightpress wrote:
                                  > have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates
                                  > and sheet adhesive
                                  > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the
                                  > base. What could cause
                                  > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I
                                  > have really heavy areas of
                                  > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it
                                  > up a bit will these things sit
                                  > flat?
                                  >
                                  > Daniel Morris
                                  > The Arm Letterpress
                                  > Brooklyn, NY
                                  >

                                  Harold Kyle
                                  Boxcar Press
                                  501 W. Fayette St. #222 ~ Syracuse, NY 13204
                                  315-473-0930 phone ~ 315-473-0967 fax
                                  http://www.boxcarpress.com
                                • Harold Kyle
                                  John: With relative humidity hovering between 15% and 20% in the northeast, I don t think that reabsorption of moisture is possible! There just is none in the
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Feb 5 5:47 PM
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                                    John:

                                    With relative humidity hovering between 15% and 20% in the northeast,
                                    I don't think that reabsorption of moisture is possible! There just
                                    is none in the air. In my experience, it's actually low humidity that
                                    exacerbates curling. I've confirmed this phenomenon with two of the
                                    plate manufacturers that we represent, and it bears out in the
                                    seasonal changes of our customers' print shops. Conversely, in the
                                    humid summer months, plates tend to be too moist. The best solution
                                    is to maintain (somewhat) constant humidity in your shop year round.

                                    Dan suggested our platemaker might not have been set up right for
                                    solids in his response to your message. I think I'll address that
                                    here. One thing we can to minimize curl is cut back on the exposures.
                                    This wasn't possible in this case because the artwork contained the
                                    equivalent of 4 point type in close proximity to the solid (this is
                                    the "healthy hot dog" text, Dan). Small point sizes need longer
                                    exposure to hold on the plate and to become hard enough to withstand
                                    printing. 4 point type is miniscule and approaches the minimum we can
                                    hold. It's a delicate balance between obtaining the detail/hardness
                                    required in the small lines without burning the plate to the point of
                                    curling. We always err on the side of detail, because curled plates
                                    usually flatten during printing. If the detail isn't there, though,
                                    it doesn't come back during printing!

                                    Bethany's tip of allowing a large border around the plate is a good
                                    one. Since I noticed that the solid area is at the plate edge, it may
                                    be that we trimmed the plate too close to the solid. I'm beginning to
                                    suspect this may be to blame. As I mentioned in my previous message,
                                    we're happy to remake any plates you feel weren't made right. Let me
                                    know if I can send a replacement for you to receive Wednesday.

                                    Harold


                                    On Feb 5, 2007, at 12:02 PM, John G. Henry wrote:

                                    > Daniel:
                                    >
                                    > I also have experienced this curling in my plates at times. I
                                    > resolved the problem by doubling up on both my drying time after
                                    > washout, and the post exposure time. I think they were re-absorbing
                                    > moisture (or drying out), changing the dimensions of the
                                    > image areas, causing heavy solid areas to cup up and leaving the
                                    > plate material curly as you describe.
                                    >
                                    > Try a longer dry, but not too high a temperature, and give them a
                                    > long post exposure and see if that resolves your issues.
                                    >
                                    > John G. Henry
                                    > Cedar Creek Press
                                    >
                                    > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "featherweightpress"
                                    > <featherweightpress@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates
                                    > and sheet adhesive
                                    > > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the
                                    > base. What could cause
                                    > > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I
                                    > have really heavy areas of
                                    > > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it
                                    > up a bit will these things sit
                                    > > flat?
                                    > >
                                    > > Daniel Morris
                                    > > The Arm Letterpress
                                    > > Brooklyn, NY
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >

                                    Harold Kyle
                                    Boxcar Press
                                    501 W. Fayette St. #222 ~ Syracuse, NY 13204
                                    315-473-0930 phone ~ 315-473-0967 fax
                                    http://www.boxcarpress.com
                                  • Gerald Lange
                                    Harold As far as I know plates have a stated hardness rating; once cured, that is their hardness. One isn t hardening a plate through curing, that is to say,
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Feb 5 6:18 PM
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                                      Harold

                                      As far as I know plates have a stated hardness rating; once cured, that
                                      is their hardness. One isn't hardening a plate through curing, that is
                                      to say, one cannot increase or decrease the hardness through the
                                      process. It is simply being brought to state. It would be disastrous if
                                      this were not the case.

                                      I have no idea why plates would curl and rip away from the adhesive but
                                      I suspect that temperature as well as humidity could come into play. I
                                      do know that non-room temperature variance has an effect on exposure
                                      times. I haven't experienced this on press though.

                                      But I agree that putting a 4-pt text reverse on a solid is asking for a
                                      difficult time on press. It can be done but I'd warn here against using
                                      a delicately light serif face and/or composition that hasn't been
                                      significantly tracked out at that size. Plus there simply isn't enough
                                      relief (if exposed correctly, as you point out) and constant cleaning is
                                      required.

                                      Gerald
                                      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                                      Harold Kyle wrote:
                                      > John:
                                      >
                                      > With relative humidity hovering between 15% and 20% in the northeast,
                                      > I don't think that reabsorption of moisture is possible! There just
                                      > is none in the air. In my experience, it's actually low humidity that
                                      > exacerbates curling. I've confirmed this phenomenon with two of the
                                      > plate manufacturers that we represent, and it bears out in the
                                      > seasonal changes of our customers' print shops. Conversely, in the
                                      > humid summer months, plates tend to be too moist. The best solution
                                      > is to maintain (somewhat) constant humidity in your shop year round.
                                      >
                                      > Dan suggested our platemaker might not have been set up right for
                                      > solids in his response to your message. I think I'll address that
                                      > here. One thing we can to minimize curl is cut back on the exposures.
                                      > This wasn't possible in this case because the artwork contained the
                                      > equivalent of 4 point type in close proximity to the solid (this is
                                      > the "healthy hot dog" text, Dan). Small point sizes need longer
                                      > exposure to hold on the plate and to become hard enough to withstand
                                      > printing. 4 point type is miniscule and approaches the minimum we can
                                      > hold. It's a delicate balance between obtaining the detail/hardness
                                      > required in the small lines without burning the plate to the point of
                                      > curling. We always err on the side of detail, because curled plates
                                      > usually flatten during printing. If the detail isn't there, though,
                                      > it doesn't come back during printing!
                                      >
                                      > Bethany's tip of allowing a large border around the plate is a good
                                      > one. Since I noticed that the solid area is at the plate edge, it may
                                      > be that we trimmed the plate too close to the solid. I'm beginning to
                                      > suspect this may be to blame. As I mentioned in my previous message,
                                      > we're happy to remake any plates you feel weren't made right. Let me
                                      > know if I can send a replacement for you to receive Wednesday.
                                      >
                                      > Harold
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On Feb 5, 2007, at 12:02 PM, John G. Henry wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >> Daniel:
                                      >>
                                      >> I also have experienced this curling in my plates at times. I
                                      >> resolved the problem by doubling up on both my drying time after
                                      >> washout, and the post exposure time. I think they were re-absorbing
                                      >> moisture (or drying out), changing the dimensions of the
                                      >> image areas, causing heavy solid areas to cup up and leaving the
                                      >> plate material curly as you describe.
                                      >>
                                      >> Try a longer dry, but not too high a temperature, and give them a
                                      >> long post exposure and see if that resolves your issues.
                                      >>
                                      >> John G. Henry
                                      >> Cedar Creek Press
                                      >>
                                      >> --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "featherweightpress"
                                      >> <featherweightpress@...> wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >>> I have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates
                                      >>>
                                      >> and sheet adhesive
                                      >>
                                      >>> backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the
                                      >>>
                                      >> base. What could cause
                                      >>
                                      >>> this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I
                                      >>>
                                      >> have really heavy areas of
                                      >>
                                      >>> solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it
                                      >>>
                                      >> up a bit will these things sit
                                      >>
                                      >>> flat?
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Daniel Morris
                                      >>> The Arm Letterpress
                                      >>> Brooklyn, NY
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      > Harold Kyle
                                      > Boxcar Press
                                      > 501 W. Fayette St. #222 ~ Syracuse, NY 13204
                                      > 315-473-0930 phone ~ 315-473-0967 fax
                                      > http://www.boxcarpress.com
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • wa0dfw@copper.net
                                      Kinda normal out here!
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Feb 5 10:25 PM
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                                        Kinda normal out here!

                                        >With relative humidity hovering between 15% and 20% in the northeast,
                                      • Harold Kyle
                                        Gerald, As I understand it, you re right in theory. When processed correctly and stored at 50% relative humidity (and kept out of excessive ultraviolet light)
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Feb 6 6:06 AM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Gerald,

                                          As I understand it, you're right in theory. When processed correctly
                                          and stored at 50% relative humidity (and kept out of excessive
                                          ultraviolet light) afterwards, the plate will have its stated
                                          hardness. Once the environmental variables change (when the plate is
                                          sent out into the world), though, the plate can continue to harden.
                                          Leave a 152SB plate in an LA window sill and next week it will be so
                                          brittle that a slight flex in the plate can cause it to crack . This
                                          plate has gone beyond the hardness intended for it because of excess
                                          UV. The same can happen with plates that become excessively dry.

                                          The simple solution to this issue is to bag the plates and make sure
                                          they're out of light. Don't leave them out longer than necessary and
                                          remoisten them if they curl.

                                          In thinking this morning about John's suggestion of drying the plate
                                          longer, I realized this is a good suggestion during the Iowa summer.
                                          The humid weather then requires a longer (or hotter) drying to expel
                                          the right amount of moisture. I wonder, John, if you find yourself
                                          using a longer dry time more frequently in winter or in summer?

                                          Thanks,
                                          Harold


                                          On Feb 5, 2007, at 9:18 PM, Gerald Lange wrote:

                                          > One isn't hardening a plate through curing, that is
                                          > to say, one cannot increase or decrease the hardness through the
                                          > process. It is simply being brought to state.

                                          Harold Kyle
                                          Boxcar Press
                                          501 W. Fayette St. #222 ~ Syracuse, NY 13204
                                          315-473-0930 phone ~ 315-473-0967 fax
                                          http://www.boxcarpress.com
                                        • Daniel Morris
                                          Harold and list, Thanks for all the time you have taken to consider what my problems here might be. Having all this information I now feel my problems are due
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Feb 6 1:17 PM
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                                            Harold and list,
                                            Thanks for all the time you have taken to consider what my problems here might be. Having all this information I now feel my problems are due to a combination of things. I am using a thick plate (KF152) which Harold tells me has a higher tendancy to curl than their standard plate material and, being unaware of this tendancy, I have ganged together multiple pieces of artwork without allowing an expansive/expensive border in negative space to fight against the curling tendancy of this plate material in type high areas.
                                            When I mounted my plates and left them on the base overnight they were curling away from the adhesive by the next morning.
                                            When I went to print, the edges of the dead areas were raised enough to come into contact with the rollers and were therefore being inked and ghosting on the sheet on the print stroke. My quick and dirty solution was to trim even more of these
                                            dead areas away in order to prevent them from printing. This seems to
                                            be working okay, but I have noticed just a tiny bit of plate creep because so much of the plate isn't properly adhered to the base until the moment it is impressed.
                                            Because my studio is too large to keep it climate controlled overnight, I will try Harold's suggestion of placing a moist towel over the plate on the base and I will put weight on top of it until I arrive the next day to print again.
                                            Thanks again for all the suggestions. I still have 600 more impressions to do with these plates so I'll get back to cranking.

                                            Daniel Morris
                                            The Arm Letterpress
                                            Brooklyn, NY


                                            ----- Original Message ----
                                            From: Harold Kyle <harold@...>
                                            To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Monday, February 5, 2007 2:30:18 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Plastic Plates Curling...













                                            Dan:



                                            I'm sorry to hear the problems you're having with the plates. I wish

                                            I could have responded earlier, but the heavy snow here left us short-

                                            staffed and I didn't get a chance to write earlier. Feel free to call

                                            us directly with any concerns about our plates when they happen!



                                            The cold shouldn't affect the plates, but the dryness of the winter

                                            weather will cause the plates to curl. When the plates dry out, their

                                            surface hardens and tends to curl inward, especially on large solids

                                            on the KF152 plates. Thinner plastic-backed plates (like our 94FL)

                                            don't tend to have this problem, nor will plates with ligher

                                            coverage. This problem tends to flare up in the winter when the air

                                            is dry for many of our customers. Usually the impression of the press

                                            flattens the plate, but in your case it sounds like the plate isn't

                                            sticking at all.



                                            There are two steps to prevent this problem:

                                            * Humidity helps. Run a humidifier in your shop in winter to make

                                            sure the plates aren't losing moisture.

                                            * Keep your plates bagged (to keep the plates in constant humidity)

                                            and out out light (to keep them from hardening).



                                            I have one solution that might get you through this run:

                                            * If your plates have hardened and curled, you can re-moisten them to

                                            make them more flexible. Since water will damage the adhesive, I

                                            recommend you place the plate polymer-side up on a flat surface and

                                            lay a wet towel on top. Let the plate sit, moistening, for five to

                                            ten minutes. You can then dry the plate by blotting it dry with a

                                            lint-free rag and following up with a hair drier. The plate should be

                                            more supple and flatten out when the press goes to impression.



                                            If you continue to have problems with your plate, give me a call. We

                                            guarantee the plates for six months after processing, so we can offer

                                            a replacement if you've stored your plates properly and still have

                                            this problem. This must be the order we shipped right before Christmas?



                                            Good luck, and let me know how you fare.



                                            Harold



                                            PS. I just talked with a customer whose base was so cold, she

                                            suspects the adhesive wasn't sticking well. The information on our

                                            adhesive doesn't have a temperature range, but it could be that the

                                            base is so cold that the rubber-based adhesive can't stick. This is

                                            conjecture, but maybe if you heated the base, it would be more

                                            receptive to the adhesive?

                                            I will try to follow up with the manufacturer about this question

                                            tomorrow.



                                            On Feb 3, 2007, at 8:22 PM, featherweightpress wrote:

                                            > have a job on the press using plastic backed photopolymer plates

                                            > and sheet adhesive

                                            > backing, but the plates are warping like crazy and peeling off the

                                            > base. What could cause

                                            > this to happen? Does it have anything to do with the fact that I

                                            > have really heavy areas of

                                            > solid in the artwork? My studio has been a bit cold, if I heat it

                                            > up a bit will these things sit

                                            > flat?

                                            >

                                            > Daniel Morris

                                            > The Arm Letterpress

                                            > Brooklyn, NY

                                            >



                                            Harold Kyle

                                            Boxcar Press

                                            501 W. Fayette St. #222 ~ Syracuse, NY 13204

                                            315-473-0930 phone ~ 315-473-0967 fax

                                            http://www.boxcarpr ess.com














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                                          • typetom@aol.com
                                            In a message dated 2/6/2007, harold@boxcarpress.com writes: In thinking this morning about John s suggestion of drying the plate longer, I realized this is a
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Feb 6 1:39 PM
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                                              In a message dated 2/6/2007, harold@... writes:

                                              In thinking this morning about John's suggestion of drying the plate
                                              longer, I realized this is a good suggestion during the Iowa summer.
                                              The humid weather then requires a longer (or hotter) drying to expel
                                              the right amount of moisture. I wonder, John, if you find yourself
                                              using a longer dry time more frequently in winter or in summer?



                                              I agree with John about drying time affecting curl. Here in Denver the air
                                              is normally so dry a plate seems to need almost no drying time. I discovered
                                              this is deceptive -- if I don't dry long enough, there is still moisture in
                                              the plate which eventually dries, which seems to cause the plate to curl since
                                              the surface shrinks more (or faster) than the sub-surface of the polymer.
                                              Additional drying time (which I do with a hand-held hair drier) seems to solve
                                              most of my curling problems.

                                              The exact timing needed will vary according to humidity -- my methods are
                                              somewhat impressionistic (or should I say learned by craft and experience),
                                              usually blow-drying the plate until it is almost too hot to hold, and then a
                                              little longer.... I also added a little additional post-exposure time, for what
                                              it's worth, which seems to me to dry the plate further and maybe fix it
                                              better in its original flat condition throughout the full depth of the polymer.

                                              Larger surfaces still seem more prone to curl, and long storage still
                                              results in a more brittle and often more curled plate. (I don't know if the brittle
                                              quality is a result of an increased "hardness" of the polymer as it is
                                              exposed to further UV, or dry air, or some other kind of deterioration in the
                                              polymer such as Gerald suggests happens because of Ozone). But the result is that
                                              I don't often reuse old plates, but save the negative and remake the plate.

                                              Seems to me these variations may be better recognized when making plates by
                                              hand, rather than by setting timers on a machine, but maybe that's my own
                                              preference for hand-work showing. I did have to learn that some of the timing
                                              measurements have to be mechanically and very precisely followed, especially
                                              exposure times for differing kinds of images, and washout time limits.

                                              (Regarding the extra exposure needed to preserve very fine lines and dots, I
                                              would say that the polymer is not getting "harder" but may be hardening
                                              further all the way to the base, which also allows sub-surface material to harden
                                              more widely than the surface image -- which will provide additional support
                                              and protection for the fine surface lines or dots. An opposite process is
                                              involved in determining exposure time needed for printing a reverse line in a
                                              solid surface -- too much exposure time will allow the sub-surface to harden
                                              and widen to over-fill the detail of the reverse, thus leaving it without
                                              enough relief for printing -- so this kind of image needs to be under-exposed to
                                              protect the fine details. These processes are a result of the fact that the UV
                                              light does not just enter the negative/plate in a directly vertical
                                              direction, but angles through the image in the negative and thus exposes a wider area
                                              below the surface, and thus can harden an expanding sub-surface area of
                                              polymer the longer it has the chance.)

                                              Best wishes, Tom

                                              Tom Parson
                                              Now It's Up To You Publications
                                              157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
                                              (303) 777-8951 home
                                              (720) 480-5358 cell phone
                                              http://members.aol.com/typetom


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Gerald Lange
                                              Tom I think this is fairly accurate. Don t know about exactly about the drying time thing or the humidity factor, nor have ever experienced the curling factor.
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Feb 7 2:37 AM
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                                                Tom

                                                I think this is fairly accurate. Don't know about exactly about the
                                                drying time thing or the humidity factor, nor have ever experienced the
                                                curling factor. But I love the word "impressionistic" in this regard
                                                (applies to machine processing as well as hand processing, by the way).

                                                PP isn't voodoo, it's just a technical process. Thus, I'm confused about
                                                the thinking on drying in the thread. Drying just removes the moisture
                                                left over from washout and has nothing to do with the innards of the
                                                matrix. Water doesn't actually get into the polymer. And while moisture
                                                must be maintained at a certain rate to prolong the longevity of plates
                                                I suspect far too much is being made of this.

                                                Your description of the photopolymerization process is as on the mark as
                                                it gets except that during extended exposure the relief grows upward
                                                (shallower) as the molecular structure continues to grow and interlock
                                                (because of the extended UV exposure).

                                                I'm also thinking there is confusion (in the thread) over the term
                                                hardness as opposed to eventual loss of tack and resilience, resulting
                                                in brittleness. Post-exposure simply ensures complete
                                                photopolymerization of the subsurface relief (the surface is already
                                                stabilized); it is suggested that it can prolong deterioration but
                                                common practice would indicate not to reuse plates (as per your
                                                practice)—it has not seemed a beneficial practice to me as well. I
                                                suspect if one waits a month or so to print from plates, well, one has
                                                missed the window of optimum opportunity.

                                                Fresh, seems to be a fairly politically correct term these days. "Fresh
                                                plates are good for your printing"?

                                                Gerald
                                                http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



                                                typetom@... wrote:
                                                >
                                                > In a message dated 2/6/2007, harold@... writes:
                                                >
                                                > In thinking this morning about John's suggestion of drying the plate
                                                > longer, I realized this is a good suggestion during the Iowa summer.
                                                > The humid weather then requires a longer (or hotter) drying to expel
                                                > the right amount of moisture. I wonder, John, if you find yourself
                                                > using a longer dry time more frequently in winter or in summer?
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > I agree with John about drying time affecting curl. Here in Denver the air
                                                > is normally so dry a plate seems to need almost no drying time. I discovered
                                                > this is deceptive -- if I don't dry long enough, there is still moisture in
                                                > the plate which eventually dries, which seems to cause the plate to curl since
                                                > the surface shrinks more (or faster) than the sub-surface of the polymer.
                                                > Additional drying time (which I do with a hand-held hair drier) seems to solve
                                                > most of my curling problems.
                                                >
                                                > The exact timing needed will vary according to humidity -- my methods are
                                                > somewhat impressionistic (or should I say learned by craft and experience),
                                                > usually blow-drying the plate until it is almost too hot to hold, and then a
                                                > little longer.... I also added a little additional post-exposure time, for what
                                                > it's worth, which seems to me to dry the plate further and maybe fix it
                                                > better in its original flat condition throughout the full depth of the polymer.
                                                >
                                                > Larger surfaces still seem more prone to curl, and long storage still
                                                > results in a more brittle and often more curled plate. (I don't know if the brittle
                                                > quality is a result of an increased "hardness" of the polymer as it is
                                                > exposed to further UV, or dry air, or some other kind of deterioration in the
                                                > polymer such as Gerald suggests happens because of Ozone). But the result is that
                                                > I don't often reuse old plates, but save the negative and remake the plate.
                                                >
                                                > Seems to me these variations may be better recognized when making plates by
                                                > hand, rather than by setting timers on a machine, but maybe that's my own
                                                > preference for hand-work showing. I did have to learn that some of the timing
                                                > measurements have to be mechanically and very precisely followed, especially
                                                > exposure times for differing kinds of images, and washout time limits.
                                                >
                                                > (Regarding the extra exposure needed to preserve very fine lines and dots, I
                                                > would say that the polymer is not getting "harder" but may be hardening
                                                > further all the way to the base, which also allows sub-surface material to harden
                                                > more widely than the surface image -- which will provide additional support
                                                > and protection for the fine surface lines or dots. An opposite process is
                                                > involved in determining exposure time needed for printing a reverse line in a
                                                > solid surface -- too much exposure time will allow the sub-surface to harden
                                                > and widen to over-fill the detail of the reverse, thus leaving it without
                                                > enough relief for printing -- so this kind of image needs to be under-exposed to
                                                > protect the fine details. These processes are a result of the fact that the UV
                                                > light does not just enter the negative/plate in a directly vertical
                                                > direction, but angles through the image in the negative and thus exposes a wider area
                                                > below the surface, and thus can harden an expanding sub-surface area of
                                                > polymer the longer it has the chance.)
                                                >
                                                > Best wishes, Tom
                                                >
                                                > Tom Parson
                                                > Now It's Up To You Publications
                                                > 157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
                                                > (303) 777-8951 home
                                                > (720) 480-5358 cell phone
                                                > http://members.aol.com/typetom
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                              • John G. Henry
                                                I find the most curling in heavy solids and halftone images. I do think the humidity is my greatest difficulty. My shop is not air- conditioned, so I do have
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Feb 7 8:02 AM
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                                                  I find the most curling in heavy solids and halftone images. I do
                                                  think the humidity is my greatest difficulty. My shop is not air-
                                                  conditioned, so I do have some variations from winter to summer.

                                                  Perhaps our California group members have a more stable environment
                                                  so they do not notice the vargaries of moisture as it relates to
                                                  photopolymer plate materials. It does seem that the plates are
                                                  capable of some retention or loss of moisture after polymerization.

                                                  John Henry

                                                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, typetom@... wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > In a message dated 2/6/2007, harold@... writes:
                                                  >
                                                  > In thinking this morning about John's suggestion of drying the
                                                  plate
                                                  > longer, I realized this is a good suggestion during the Iowa
                                                  summer.
                                                  > The humid weather then requires a longer (or hotter) drying to
                                                  expel
                                                  > the right amount of moisture. I wonder, John, if you find
                                                  yourself
                                                  > using a longer dry time more frequently in winter or in summer?
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > I agree with John about drying time affecting curl. Here in
                                                  Denver the air
                                                  > is normally so dry a plate seems to need almost no drying time. I
                                                  discovered
                                                  > this is deceptive -- if I don't dry long enough, there is still
                                                  moisture in
                                                  > the plate which eventually dries, which seems to cause the plate
                                                  to curl since
                                                  > the surface shrinks more (or faster) than the sub-surface of the
                                                  polymer.
                                                  > Additional drying time (which I do with a hand-held hair drier)
                                                  seems to solve
                                                  > most of my curling problems.
                                                  >
                                                  > The exact timing needed will vary according to humidity -- my
                                                  methods are
                                                  > somewhat impressionistic (or should I say learned by craft and
                                                  experience),
                                                  > usually blow-drying the plate until it is almost too hot to hold,
                                                  and then a
                                                  > little longer.... I also added a little additional post-exposure
                                                  time, for what
                                                  > it's worth, which seems to me to dry the plate further and maybe
                                                  fix it
                                                  > better in its original flat condition throughout the full depth
                                                  of the polymer.
                                                  >
                                                  > Larger surfaces still seem more prone to curl, and long storage
                                                  still
                                                  > results in a more brittle and often more curled plate. (I don't
                                                  know if the brittle
                                                  > quality is a result of an increased "hardness" of the polymer as
                                                  it is
                                                  > exposed to further UV, or dry air, or some other kind of
                                                  deterioration in the
                                                  > polymer such as Gerald suggests happens because of Ozone). But
                                                  the result is that
                                                  > I don't often reuse old plates, but save the negative and remake
                                                  the plate.
                                                  >
                                                  > Seems to me these variations may be better recognized when making
                                                  plates by
                                                  > hand, rather than by setting timers on a machine, but maybe
                                                  that's my own
                                                  > preference for hand-work showing. I did have to learn that some
                                                  of the timing
                                                  > measurements have to be mechanically and very precisely followed,
                                                  especially
                                                  > exposure times for differing kinds of images, and washout time
                                                  limits.
                                                  >
                                                  > (Regarding the extra exposure needed to preserve very fine lines
                                                  and dots, I
                                                  > would say that the polymer is not getting "harder" but may be
                                                  hardening
                                                  > further all the way to the base, which also allows sub-surface
                                                  material to harden
                                                  > more widely than the surface image -- which will provide
                                                  additional support
                                                  > and protection for the fine surface lines or dots. An opposite
                                                  process is
                                                  > involved in determining exposure time needed for printing a
                                                  reverse line in a
                                                  > solid surface -- too much exposure time will allow the sub-
                                                  surface to harden
                                                  > and widen to over-fill the detail of the reverse, thus leaving it
                                                  without
                                                  > enough relief for printing -- so this kind of image needs to be
                                                  under-exposed to
                                                  > protect the fine details. These processes are a result of the
                                                  fact that the UV
                                                  > light does not just enter the negative/plate in a directly
                                                  vertical
                                                  > direction, but angles through the image in the negative and thus
                                                  exposes a wider area
                                                  > below the surface, and thus can harden an expanding sub-surface
                                                  area of
                                                  > polymer the longer it has the chance.)
                                                  >
                                                  > Best wishes, Tom
                                                  >
                                                  > Tom Parson
                                                  > Now It's Up To You Publications
                                                  > 157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
                                                  > (303) 777-8951 home
                                                  > (720) 480-5358 cell phone
                                                  > http://members.aol.com/typetom
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                • chelsea parker
                                                  hi- I own a c & p pilot press, and a few parts are needing to be replaced, along with the handle. The handle had been modified by the previous owner and I am
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Feb 7 3:00 PM
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                                                    hi-

                                                    I own a c & p pilot press, and a few parts are needing to be replaced, along with the handle. The handle had been modified by the previous owner and I am wanting a regular style one for printing. I have tried many places off of briar press, but no one seems to return my emails or phone calls. Does anyone have any clue about where I could get a c & p pilot press handle? If anyone could help me it would be greatly appreciated.


                                                    Thanks so much.
                                                    cheers
                                                    -chelsea



                                                    ---------------------------------
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                                                    Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started!

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                                                  • Gerald Lange
                                                    John It s plastic. Once cured, it s all downhill from there. Moisture is not retained by polymer, at best a certain threshold of moisture preserves its initial
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Feb 8 2:54 AM
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                                                      John

                                                      It's plastic. Once cured, it's all downhill from there. Moisture is
                                                      not retained by polymer, at best a certain threshold of moisture
                                                      preserves its initial state in the short term. The molecular structure
                                                      of manufactured polymers, however, has not proven stable in the long term.

                                                      As much as the environmentalists condemn plastics, the
                                                      preservationists wring their hands about how to save them. The
                                                      Smithsonian can't keep astronaut suits from disintegrating much less
                                                      keep Barbie Dolls from leaching.

                                                      Gerald
                                                      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



                                                      >
                                                      > Perhaps our California group members have a more stable environment
                                                      > so they do not notice the vargaries of moisture as it relates to
                                                      > photopolymer plate materials. It does seem that the plates are
                                                      > capable of some retention or loss of moisture after polymerization.
                                                      >
                                                      > John Henry
                                                      >
                                                    • Bethany Carter
                                                      Have you tried Don Black Linecasting in Canada? www.donblack.ca That s were I got my little Craftsman press (like a Pilot) but I m not sure if they sell
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Feb 8 10:14 AM
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                                                        Have you tried Don Black Linecasting in Canada? www.donblack.ca
                                                        That's were I got my little Craftsman press (like a Pilot) but I'm not sure
                                                        if they sell parts, it's worth a try though.

                                                        Good luck,

                                                        Bethany A. Carter


                                                        >From: chelsea parker <piecemeal.press@...>
                                                        >Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                                        >To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                                        >Subject: [PPLetterpress] c & p pilot press handle- HELP
                                                        >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 15:00:01 -0800 (PST)
                                                        >
                                                        >hi-
                                                        >
                                                        >I own a c & p pilot press, and a few parts are needing to be replaced,
                                                        >along with the handle. The handle had been modified by the previous owner
                                                        >and I am wanting a regular style one for printing. I have tried many places
                                                        >off of briar press, but no one seems to return my emails or phone calls.
                                                        >Does anyone have any clue about where I could get a c & p pilot press
                                                        >handle? If anyone could help me it would be greatly appreciated.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >Thanks so much.
                                                        >cheers
                                                        >-chelsea
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >---------------------------------
                                                        >Never Miss an Email
                                                        >Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started!
                                                        >
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                                                        >

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                                                      • Joe Ranneba
                                                        Hello... I am also looking for a Columbian #2 handle. This is very much like the Pilot handle meaning I could probably use a Pilot handle for this press. So,
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Feb 9 6:43 AM
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                                                          Hello...

                                                          I am also looking for a Columbian #2 handle. This is very much like the
                                                          Pilot handle meaning I could probably use a Pilot handle for this
                                                          press. So, in other words, I am interested as well.

                                                          Thank you!


                                                          At 05:00 PM 2/7/2007, you wrote:

                                                          >hi-
                                                          >
                                                          >I own a c & p pilot press, and a few parts are needing to be replaced,
                                                          >along with the handle. The handle had been modified by the previous owner
                                                          >and I am wanting a regular style one for printing. I have tried many
                                                          >places off of briar press, but no one seems to return my emails or phone
                                                          >calls. Does anyone have any clue about where I could get a c & p pilot
                                                          >press handle? If anyone could help me it would be greatly appreciated.
                                                          >
                                                          >Thanks so much.
                                                          >cheers
                                                          >-chelsea
                                                          >
                                                          >---------------------------------
                                                          >Never Miss an Email
                                                          >Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started!
                                                          >
                                                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          >
                                                          >

                                                          Joseph Rannebarger
                                                          CITES Customer Service
                                                          Digital Computer Lab - Rm 1110
                                                          1304 W Springfield Ave
                                                          Urbana, IL 61801
                                                          217-333-1161


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