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Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Advice for deep impression

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  • Peter Fraterdeus
    Greetings, list, with hopes for a healthy 2007 to all! Crispin, well said for a barbarian , thank you ,-) However, I must toss a couple of words into this
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 24, 2007
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      Greetings, list, with hopes for a healthy 2007 to all!

      Crispin, well said for a 'barbarian', thank you ,-)

      However, I must toss a couple of words into this ever-lasting dispute.

      Book printers are of course not going to consider deep impression
      attractive or appropriate, as it plays havoc with imposition and is
      unlikely to improve the reading experience (irony intended)...

      However, there are certain papers (surfaces) which have enough depth
      in them that a kiss impression is a mere virginal priss, while the
      surface is looking for a lingering and passionate embrace.
      That's not rape, to use your colorful term.

      Walter Hamady comes to mind, with his handmade paper and healthy
      impressions. Passionate indeed, some pages of the Valentine's Day
      book that I have can be read with the fingers... but only from the
      printed side. The verso is unblemished, other than a smoothing of the
      fibers, if that.

      I think Fritz is a very practical fellow, and I value his perspective greatly.

      Social printing and book printing are two essentially unrelated
      fields, so why the big to do about stylistic trends? Pontification
      merely paints ones perception of the purveyor in unflattering hues...

      So how many angels can fit on the head of a gauge-pin???

      P.


      --
      AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
      ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!

      Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
      Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography

      Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com http://www.galenaphotos.com
      Galena, Illinois http://www.alphabets.com
      Photography Irish Fiddle Political Observation
      Philosophy Fonts Lettering
    • Casey McGarr
      I have really enjoyed reading everyones thoughts on this topic. You all are very talented at what you do and your passion for printing comes through in your
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 24, 2007
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        I have really enjoyed reading everyones thoughts on this topic. You all are very talented at
        what you do and your passion for printing comes through in your writing. Thanks for your
        insight.

        I'm split between both customers that want kiss impression and most want a firm impression.
        The metaphor of engagement and rape of the paper is one I won't forget, that was a great
        definition of too much and just enough.

        Thanks,
        Casey
      • Crispin Elsted
        Dear Peter, Many thanks for your comments, with which I agree in large part. I should say (since evidently I didn t say so) that I too like a bit of bonk on
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 24, 2007
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          Dear Peter,

          Many thanks for your comments, with which I agree in large part. I should say (since evidently I didn't say so) that I too like a bit of 'bonk' on the right paper, and in the right circumstances. Walter Hamady's books are fine examples of a proportionate use of 'strong' impression (better 'strong' than 'heavy', perhaps), and I like his work immensely, but it should be noted that Walter usually makes his own paper, and his Shadwell sheets are produced, I think, with his own style of printing in mind. I'm also interested to see that in his "Hand Papermaking" (1982) he avoids printing text on the verso of the linocuts, in order to avoid interfering with the image. Clearly he has made his own preference for strength of impression a matter of style, and this is all subsumed in an overall aesthetic which, knowing Walter, he would quite properly and articulately defend.

          I like your image of 'virginal priss' to denote the passion (sic) for 'kiss (also sic) impression' which many recent printers achieve. The technical skill required to print that way is admirable, but the effect is a little bloodless -- like Boulez's Ravel.

          And by the way, and for the record, I have the greatest admiration and gratitude for Fritz and all his works.

          Cheers!

          Crispin




          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Peter Fraterdeus
          To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com ; Crispin Elsted
          Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 2:01 PM
          Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Advice for deep impression


          Greetings, list, with hopes for a healthy 2007 to all!

          Crispin, well said for a 'barbarian', thank you ,-)

          However, I must toss a couple of words into this ever-lasting dispute.

          Book printers are of course not going to consider deep impression
          attractive or appropriate, as it plays havoc with imposition and is
          unlikely to improve the reading experience (irony intended)...

          However, there are certain papers (surfaces) which have enough depth
          in them that a kiss impression is a mere virginal priss, while the
          surface is looking for a lingering and passionate embrace.
          That's not rape, to use your colorful term.

          Walter Hamady comes to mind, with his handmade paper and healthy
          impressions. Passionate indeed, some pages of the Valentine's Day
          book that I have can be read with the fingers... but only from the
          printed side. The verso is unblemished, other than a smoothing of the
          fibers, if that.

          I think Fritz is a very practical fellow, and I value his perspective greatly.

          Social printing and book printing are two essentially unrelated
          fields, so why the big to do about stylistic trends? Pontification
          merely paints ones perception of the purveyor in unflattering hues...

          So how many angels can fit on the head of a gauge-pin???

          P.

          --
          AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
          ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!

          Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
          Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography

          Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com http://www.galenaphotos.com
          Galena, Illinois http://www.alphabets.com
          Photography Irish Fiddle Political Observation
          Philosophy Fonts Lettering





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Gerald Lange
          Michael I live in the belly of the beast. Even though I provide plate processing for clients who are far more financially successful than I, if I learn
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 24, 2007
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            Michael

            I live in "the belly of the beast."

            Even though I provide plate processing for clients who are far more
            financially successful than I, if I learn something that might be of
            use to them, I pass it on. I also, in regard to Crispin's comment,
            which I interpret to mean the basic atypographic quality of
            contemporary social printing (on which I concur), will occasionally
            recommend that certain typefaces simply are not technically well
            suited for photopolymer/letterpress, or a design approach is not going
            to replicate well—or they will continually encounter problems if they
            use them. They usually catch on. And forewarn their clients. There is
            somewhat of an educational process at play here. It never hurts to
            further the cause.

            It's "what the client wants" is not always the appropriate response.
            It's what the client needs. That is the primary responsibility of the
            designer/printer. Anything other than that and you (generic you) don't
            care. And if that's the case, what's the point of doing what you do?

            Gerald
            http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Michael T. Metz" <mtmetz@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > "Cushions"? Gerald, you are becoming your enemy.
            >
          • wa0dfw@copper.net
            My two cents... There are basically two types of deep impression. I rarely see them distinguished from each other in these diatribes. One is done on hard
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 24, 2007
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              My two cents...

              There are basically two types of deep impression. I rarely see them
              distinguished from each other in these diatribes.

              One is done on hard packing, on thicker stocks, and the image is
              impressed into the surface, but the rear of the sheet does not have
              to show this at all.

              This can be very beautiful work. I've done some of it myself, most
              recently on dampened hand-made "banana paper". It is also quite nice
              when tastefully done on cast covers such as Krome-Kote or the like.

              The other deep impression is on soft packing, and the type is beaten
              so deeply into the paper that it punches through the rear of the
              paper. I believe this is what most of the long-time letterpressmen
              eschew, as do I. It is not pretty, it is not art, at least in my
              "HUMBLE" opinion.
            • enkidu@hetnet.nl
              Some cents from Holland, Deep impression is acceptable with bookbinding in 2 to 3 mm thick covers, though this was done by completely different presses for
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 25, 2007
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                Some cents from Holland,

                Deep impression is acceptable with bookbinding in
                2 to 3 mm thick covers, though this was done by
                completely different presses for gilding.

                Some impressing is needed to be sure of a good
                image of the characters on the paper, without overinking.

                But the deep impression you see in old 17th century books,
                is not something to be copied today, and certainly not a
                landmark of artistic values.

                You can identify letterpress by examining the print by a microscope,
                there is a disticnt difference between old lead type and the
                computerized kerned fonts today, in shape and appearance.

                I will rather stick to newly cast Monotype-composition, but
                not all of us have this equippement available.

                .......

                "deep" impression, to my mind is just bad craftmanship.

                Best wishes

                John Cornelisse








                -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
                Van: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com namens wa0dfw@...
                Verzonden: do 25-1-2007 8:35
                Aan: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                Onderwerp: RE: [PPLetterpress] Re: Advice for deep impression


                My two cents...

                There are basically two types of deep impression. I rarely see them
                distinguished from each other in these diatribes.

                One is done on hard packing, on thicker stocks, and the image is
                impressed into the surface, but the rear of the sheet does not have
                to show this at all.

                This can be very beautiful work. I've done some of it myself, most
                recently on dampened hand-made "banana paper". It is also quite nice
                when tastefully done on cast covers such as Krome-Kote or the like.

                The other deep impression is on soft packing, and the type is beaten
                so deeply into the paper that it punches through the rear of the
                paper. I believe this is what most of the long-time letterpressmen
                eschew, as do I. It is not pretty, it is not art, at least in my
                "HUMBLE" opinion.






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Michael T. Metz
                Gerald, Speaking of a need, would you consider publishing a compendium of your thoughts on fonts in polymer? If you would consider publishing a short missive,
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 25, 2007
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                  Gerald,

                  Speaking of a need, would you consider publishing a compendium of your
                  thoughts on fonts in polymer? If you would consider publishing a short
                  missive, I'd buy it and I'd bet not a few others would as well. As
                  a first round might even ask the list for a prepay and distribute it
                  as as a pdf. Second round would include a printer's broadside "eye chart"
                  of the good, the bad, and the ugly.

                  Mike Metz
                  www.lpress.com
                  Lamppost Press


                  _____

                  From: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com]
                  On Behalf Of Gerald Lange
                  Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 12:03 AM
                  To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Advice for deep impression



                  Michael

                  I live in "the belly of the beast."

                  Even though I provide plate processing for clients who are far more
                  financially successful than I, if I learn something that might be of
                  use to them, I pass it on. I also, in regard to Crispin's comment,
                  which I interpret to mean the basic atypographic quality of
                  contemporary social printing (on which I concur), will occasionally
                  recommend that certain typefaces simply are not technically well
                  suited for photopolymer/letterpress, or a design approach is not going
                  to replicate well-or they will continually encounter problems if they
                  use them. They usually catch on. And forewarn their clients. There is
                  somewhat of an educational process at play here. It never hurts to
                  further the cause.

                  It's "what the client wants" is not always the appropriate response.
                  It's what the client needs. That is the primary responsibility of the
                  designer/printer. Anything other than that and you (generic you) don't
                  care. And if that's the case, what's the point of doing what you do?

                  Gerald
                  http://BielerPress. <http://BielerPress.blogspot.com> blogspot.com

                  --- In PPLetterpress@ <mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com>
                  yahoogroups.com, "Michael T. Metz" <mtmetz@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > "Cushions"? Gerald, you are becoming your enemy.
                  >






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Gerald Lange
                  Hello Mike You ve always got a lot of ideas. That s good. I like that. Keep them coming as they say. Pretty much everything I ve written on digital-to-analog
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 25, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello Mike

                    You've always got a lot of ideas. That's good. I like that. Keep them
                    coming as they say.

                    Pretty much everything I've written on digital-to-analog can be found in
                    the PDT monograph, the articles up at

                    http://bielerpressii.blogspot.com/

                    or scattered here and about in the message archives at PPL.

                    I did start a Database table there a long while back with a listing of
                    useful faces with commentary, but when no one else contributed to it I
                    eventually nicked it. And no longer have the data.

                    I am working on another monograph, for some several years now, but it
                    concentrates on d-t-a at the microtypographic level of investigation. My
                    very insular concern and interest. But I don't ever seem to have the
                    time (time = money, money = time) to complete it.

                    The problem with me concentrating on something like your proposal is
                    that we are in the midst of what appears to be a decade long transition
                    in font formats. Not many seem to be paying attention to this, but when
                    it is complete, many Postscript Type 1 typefaces (that have accumulated
                    over the last two decades) with be lost to us. And the format itself may
                    no longer be viable on forthcoming operating systems. So basically, it
                    would be a "short missive" with a constant need for revision. Based on
                    my experience with the need to revise and update PDT every three years
                    or so, I doubt I would be up for it.

                    All best

                    Gerald
                    ps. Do you have any more of the chapbook you did on the Heidelberg and
                    printing on toilet paper? I loved it so much I gave to a friend. Would
                    like to get a few more.


                    Michael T. Metz wrote:
                    > Gerald,
                    >
                    > Speaking of a need, would you consider publishing a compendium of your
                    > thoughts on fonts in polymer? If you would consider publishing a short
                    > missive, I'd buy it and I'd bet not a few others would as well. As
                    > a first round might even ask the list for a prepay and distribute it
                    > as as a pdf. Second round would include a printer's broadside "eye chart"
                    > of the good, the bad, and the ugly.
                    >
                    > Mike Metz
                    > www.lpress.com
                    > Lamppost Press
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Michael T. Metz
                    What was that Hee Haw song... If it weren t for bad ideas, I d have no ideas at all. Wo is me, the agony oh dear. Ha ha. Thanks for putting up with it. Mike
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 26, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      What was that Hee Haw song...

                      "If it weren't for bad ideas, I'd have no ideas at
                      all. Wo is me, the agony oh dear." Ha ha.

                      Thanks for putting up with it.

                      Mike
                      www.lpress.com
                      Lamppost Press

                      ps Yes, still have some of "When the Toilet Paper Hit the Windmill".
                      These are $8 back issues. Graham Moss recognized from eyeballing it
                      that I used Perpetua, but he could see the difference between it and
                      metal. The masthead (that is the wrong term, but I can't remember
                      the correct one at the moment) uses a blackletter face I found on
                      a single line on the title page of the New Testament section in a
                      19th century German bible. Spent three years searching for it's
                      history and a couple more digitizing that single line using Fontlab's
                      Scanfont. Search lead me to Hans Peter Willberg who lead me to a very
                      gracious Herr Eckehart SchumacherGebler at the Museum for Printing in
                      Leipzig who found me the money in a J.G. Schelter & Gieseke speciment
                      book: Neue Canzlei. Found several S&G specimen books at the Newberry
                      Library in Chicago, and it seems there were a lot of Chancelor faces.
                      I write all my letters in Neue Canzlei now, but I haven't digitized
                      the complete font yet so sometimes they are hard to read.


                      _____

                      From: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com]
                      On Behalf Of Gerald Lange
                      Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 10:36 PM
                      To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Advice for deep impression



                      Hello Mike

                      You've always got a lot of ideas. That's good. I like that. Keep them
                      coming as they say.

                      Pretty much everything I've written on digital-to-analog can be found in
                      the PDT monograph, the articles up at

                      http://bielerpressi <http://bielerpressii.blogspot.com/> i.blogspot.com/

                      or scattered here and about in the message archives at PPL.

                      I did start a Database table there a long while back with a listing of
                      useful faces with commentary, but when no one else contributed to it I
                      eventually nicked it. And no longer have the data.

                      I am working on another monograph, for some several years now, but it
                      concentrates on d-t-a at the microtypographic level of investigation. My
                      very insular concern and interest. But I don't ever seem to have the
                      time (time = money, money = time) to complete it.

                      The problem with me concentrating on something like your proposal is
                      that we are in the midst of what appears to be a decade long transition
                      in font formats. Not many seem to be paying attention to this, but when
                      it is complete, many Postscript Type 1 typefaces (that have accumulated
                      over the last two decades) with be lost to us. And the format itself may
                      no longer be viable on forthcoming operating systems. So basically, it
                      would be a "short missive" with a constant need for revision. Based on
                      my experience with the need to revise and update PDT every three years
                      or so, I doubt I would be up for it.

                      All best

                      Gerald
                      ps. Do you have any more of the chapbook you did on the Heidelberg and
                      printing on toilet paper? I loved it so much I gave to a friend. Would
                      like to get a few more.

                      Michael T. Metz wrote:
                      > Gerald,
                      >
                      > Speaking of a need, would you consider publishing a compendium of your
                      > thoughts on fonts in polymer? If you would consider publishing a short
                      > missive, I'd buy it and I'd bet not a few others would as well. As
                      > a first round might even ask the list for a prepay and distribute it
                      > as as a pdf. Second round would include a printer's broadside "eye chart"
                      > of the good, the bad, and the ugly.
                      >
                      > Mike Metz
                      > www.lpress.com
                      > Lamppost Press
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ludwig M. Solzen
                      Mike, Not sure if the specific Canzlei you mention is in there, but Dipl.-Ing. Gerhard Helzel has some quite well-done digitizations of Chancery Blackletter
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 28, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Mike,



                        Not sure if the specific Canzlei you mention is in there, but Dipl.-Ing.
                        Gerhard Helzel has some quite well-done digitizations of Chancery
                        Blackletter founts (Kanzlei Frakturschriften), amongst which the "Schmale
                        Kanzlei" from Schelter & Giesecke (1886). It is amazing who Helzel manages
                        to do all this work: to-date over 250 digital revivals of classic
                        blackletter founts! And the outlines are no poor job for sure. At only ?
                        15-30,- per font purchasing a licence from Helzel really is a bargain.



                        http://www.romana-hamburg.de/fraktur6.htm (bottom of page)

                        http://www.romana-hamburg.de/fraktur7.htm (top of page)



                        Ludwig



                        _____

                        Van: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com]
                        Namens Michael T. Metz
                        Verzonden: vrijdag 26 januari 2007 16:29
                        Aan: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                        Onderwerp: RE: [PPLetterpress] Re: Advice for deep impression



                        What was that Hee Haw song...

                        "If it weren't for bad ideas, I'd have no ideas at
                        all. Wo is me, the agony oh dear." Ha ha.

                        Thanks for putting up with it.

                        Mike
                        www.lpress.com
                        Lamppost Press

                        ps Yes, still have some of "When the Toilet Paper Hit the Windmill".
                        These are $8 back issues. Graham Moss recognized from eyeballing it
                        that I used Perpetua, but he could see the difference between it and
                        metal. The masthead (that is the wrong term, but I can't remember
                        the correct one at the moment) uses a blackletter face I found on
                        a single line on the title page of the New Testament section in a
                        19th century German bible. Spent three years searching for it's
                        history and a couple more digitizing that single line using Fontlab's
                        Scanfont. Search lead me to Hans Peter Willberg who lead me to a very
                        gracious Herr Eckehart SchumacherGebler at the Museum for Printing in
                        Leipzig who found me the money in a J.G. Schelter & Gieseke speciment
                        book: Neue Canzlei. Found several S&G specimen books at the Newberry
                        Library in Chicago, and it seems there were a lot of Chancelor faces.
                        I write all my letters in Neue Canzlei now, but I haven't digitized
                        the complete font yet so sometimes they are hard to read.


                        _____

                        From: PPLetterpress@ <mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com [mailto:PPLetterpress@
                        <mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com]
                        On Behalf Of Gerald Lange
                        Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 10:36 PM
                        To: PPLetterpress@ <mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Advice for deep impression

                        Hello Mike

                        You've always got a lot of ideas. That's good. I like that. Keep them
                        coming as they say.

                        Pretty much everything I've written on digital-to-analog can be found in
                        the PDT monograph, the articles up at

                        http://bielerpressi <http://bielerpressi
                        <http://bielerpressii.blogspot.com/> i.blogspot.com/> i.blogspot.com/

                        or scattered here and about in the message archives at PPL.

                        I did start a Database table there a long while back with a listing of
                        useful faces with commentary, but when no one else contributed to it I
                        eventually nicked it. And no longer have the data.

                        I am working on another monograph, for some several years now, but it
                        concentrates on d-t-a at the microtypographic level of investigation. My
                        very insular concern and interest. But I don't ever seem to have the
                        time (time = money, money = time) to complete it.

                        The problem with me concentrating on something like your proposal is
                        that we are in the midst of what appears to be a decade long transition
                        in font formats. Not many seem to be paying attention to this, but when
                        it is complete, many Postscript Type 1 typefaces (that have accumulated
                        over the last two decades) with be lost to us. And the format itself may
                        no longer be viable on forthcoming operating systems. So basically, it
                        would be a "short missive" with a constant need for revision. Based on
                        my experience with the need to revise and update PDT every three years
                        or so, I doubt I would be up for it.

                        All best

                        Gerald
                        ps. Do you have any more of the chapbook you did on the Heidelberg and
                        printing on toilet paper? I loved it so much I gave to a friend. Would
                        like to get a few more.

                        Michael T. Metz wrote:
                        > Gerald,
                        >
                        > Speaking of a need, would you consider publishing a compendium of your
                        > thoughts on fonts in polymer? If you would consider publishing a short
                        > missive, I'd buy it and I'd bet not a few others would as well. As
                        > a first round might even ask the list for a prepay and distribute it
                        > as as a pdf. Second round would include a printer's broadside "eye chart"
                        > of the good, the bad, and the ugly.
                        >
                        > Mike Metz
                        > www.lpress.com
                        > Lamppost Press
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Michael T. Metz
                        Danke Schoen Ludwig, The closest is the Einfache Kanzlei. X height and weight looks very close. You can see my sample on the cover of my webpage. There were
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 28, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Danke Schoen Ludwig,

                          The closest is the Einfache Kanzlei. X height and weight
                          looks very close. You can see my sample on the cover of
                          my webpage. There were more than a half dozen Kanzlei
                          faces in the books I found in Chicago, all of these were
                          slight variations like you point to here. Mabye the "Canzlei"
                          was marketed for the Alsace/Lorraine region and is a French
                          spelling.

                          I posted the page from the Bible that started me down this path
                          and a link to the specimen page from Herr SchumacherGebler. Got
                          the bible at a farm auction in central Kansas.

                          Interesting that the publishing information/date are printed in
                          the middle of the bible at the beginning of the New Testament.

                          http://www.LPRESS.com/letterpress.html

                          Thanks for connecting me to Dipl.-Ing Helzel.
                          That price is in Euros. Weak dollar. Have to save up.

                          Mike Metz
                          www.lpress.com
                          Lamppost Press


                          _____

                          From: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com]
                          On Behalf Of Ludwig M. Solzen
                          Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 7:23 AM
                          To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [PPLetterpress] Re: Advice for deep impression



                          Mike,

                          Not sure if the specific Canzlei you mention is in there, but Dipl.-Ing.
                          Gerhard Helzel has some quite well-done digitizations of Chancery
                          Blackletter founts (Kanzlei Frakturschriften), amongst which the "Schmale
                          Kanzlei" from Schelter & Giesecke (1886). It is amazing who Helzel manages
                          to do all this work: to-date over 250 digital revivals of classic
                          blackletter founts! And the outlines are no poor job for sure. At only ?
                          15-30,- per font purchasing a licence from Helzel really is a bargain.

                          http://www.romana- <http://www.romana-hamburg.de/fraktur6.htm>
                          hamburg.de/fraktur6.htm (bottom of page)

                          http://www.romana- <http://www.romana-hamburg.de/fraktur7.htm>
                          hamburg.de/fraktur7.htm (top of page)

                          Ludwig

                          _____

                          Van: PPLetterpress@ <mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:PPLetterpress@ <mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com>
                          yahoogroups.com]
                          Namens Michael T. Metz
                          Verzonden: vrijdag 26 januari 2007 16:29
                          Aan: PPLetterpress@ <mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                          Onderwerp: RE: [PPLetterpress] Re: Advice for deep impression

                          What was that Hee Haw song...

                          "If it weren't for bad ideas, I'd have no ideas at
                          all. Wo is me, the agony oh dear." Ha ha.

                          Thanks for putting up with it.

                          Mike
                          www.lpress.com
                          Lamppost Press

                          ps Yes, still have some of "When the Toilet Paper Hit the Windmill".
                          These are $8 back issues. Graham Moss recognized from eyeballing it
                          that I used Perpetua, but he could see the difference between it and
                          metal. The masthead (that is the wrong term, but I can't remember
                          the correct one at the moment) uses a blackletter face I found on
                          a single line on the title page of the New Testament section in a
                          19th century German bible. Spent three years searching for it's
                          history and a couple more digitizing that single line using Fontlab's
                          Scanfont. Search lead me to Hans Peter Willberg who lead me to a very
                          gracious Herr Eckehart SchumacherGebler at the Museum for Printing in
                          Leipzig who found me the money in a J.G. Schelter & Gieseke speciment
                          book: Neue Canzlei. Found several S&G specimen books at the Newberry
                          Library in Chicago, and it seems there were a lot of Chancelor faces.
                          I write all my letters in Neue Canzlei now, but I haven't digitized
                          the complete font yet so sometimes they are hard to read.

                          _____

                          From: PPLetterpress@ <mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com>
                          yahoogroups.com [mailto:PPLetterpress@
                          <mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com]
                          On Behalf Of Gerald Lange
                          Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 10:36 PM
                          To: PPLetterpress@ <mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Advice for deep impression

                          Hello Mike

                          You've always got a lot of ideas. That's good. I like that. Keep them
                          coming as they say.

                          Pretty much everything I've written on digital-to-analog can be found in
                          the PDT monograph, the articles up at

                          http://bielerpressi <http://bielerpressi
                          <http://bielerpressi <http://bielerpressii.blogspot.com/> i.blogspot.com/>
                          i.blogspot.com/> i.blogspot.com/

                          or scattered here and about in the message archives at PPL.

                          I did start a Database table there a long while back with a listing of
                          useful faces with commentary, but when no one else contributed to it I
                          eventually nicked it. And no longer have the data.

                          I am working on another monograph, for some several years now, but it
                          concentrates on d-t-a at the microtypographic level of investigation. My
                          very insular concern and interest. But I don't ever seem to have the
                          time (time = money, money = time) to complete it.

                          The problem with me concentrating on something like your proposal is
                          that we are in the midst of what appears to be a decade long transition
                          in font formats. Not many seem to be paying attention to this, but when
                          it is complete, many Postscript Type 1 typefaces (that have accumulated
                          over the last two decades) with be lost to us. And the format itself may
                          no longer be viable on forthcoming operating systems. So basically, it
                          would be a "short missive" with a constant need for revision. Based on
                          my experience with the need to revise and update PDT every three years
                          or so, I doubt I would be up for it.

                          All best

                          Gerald
                          ps. Do you have any more of the chapbook you did on the Heidelberg and
                          printing on toilet paper? I loved it so much I gave to a friend. Would
                          like to get a few more.

                          Michael T. Metz wrote:
                          > Gerald,
                          >
                          > Speaking of a need, would you consider publishing a compendium of your
                          > thoughts on fonts in polymer? If you would consider publishing a short
                          > missive, I'd buy it and I'd bet not a few others would as well. As
                          > a first round might even ask the list for a prepay and distribute it
                          > as as a pdf. Second round would include a printer's broadside "eye chart"
                          > of the good, the bad, and the ugly.
                          >
                          > Mike Metz
                          > www.lpress.com
                          > Lamppost Press
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >

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