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Re: A couple of things

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  • Gerald Lange
    Grendl The aspiration for perfection, so to speak, does not in any way preclude experimentation and the unexpected. One need look no further than the work
    Message 1 of 29 , Nov 23, 2006
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      Grendl

      The aspiration for "perfection," so to speak, does not in any way
      preclude "experimentation and the unexpected." One need look no
      further than the work of Claire Van Vliet or Walter Hamady to find
      this in full bloom.

      Gerald
      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


      >
      > A few thoughts on this statement from Gerald:
      >
      > "Printing can be a very precise craft. My assumption
      > is that if we
      > don't aspire to that what is the point? If it's close
      > enough, it
      > isn't. Why even bother if we don't care enough to make
      > it right? "
      >
      > From my perspective: to experiment, to have fun, to
      > loosen up, to enjoy oneself.
      >
      > I'm an offset press operator by day - I run a
      > four-color waterless KPG-DI... tell me about
      > precision! I don't aspire to perfection when I print
      > on a letterpress - it's for fun and for love of the
      > craft.
      >
      > And I love the relative imprecision of letterpress.
      > Sometimes the roughness is what makes it beautiful, to
      > my eye at least. The uneven impression characteristic
      > of old wood type on broadsides, the coarse, spotty
      > printing of many incunabulae... all revealing the
      > humanity of their printers.
      >
      > Don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating carelessness
      > here, but maybe a more relaxed approach that allows
      > room for experimentation and the unexpected.
      >
      > Grendl.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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      > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
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    • Peter Fraterdeus
      Grendl ... Bravo! Of course, I also believe that Gerald s point is well taken. To Aspire to flawless execution is what makes craft into Art. Of course, nothing
      Message 2 of 29 , Nov 23, 2006
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        Grendl

        >And I love the relative imprecision of letterpress.
        >Sometimes the roughness is what makes it beautiful, to
        >my eye at least. The uneven impression characteristic
        >of old wood type on broadsides, the coarse, spotty
        >printing of many incunabulae... all revealing the
        >humanity of their printers.

        Bravo!
        Of course, I also believe that Gerald's point is well taken.
        To Aspire to flawless execution is what makes craft into Art.

        Of course, nothing in this world is perfect. Thus the wisdom of the ancients who would deliberately mar the symmetry of their works, leave a break in the border of the rugs, put a thumbprint on the corner of the masterpiece...so not to offend the 'gods'

        The one true art is that of perfecting one's own 'soul', and too often perfectionism (applied to others, that is) is a rather nasty blot thereon.

        I'm also a big fan of the earliest printers. There's more life in a single page printed in 1496 than in the entirety of many 'fine printed' works of the current era...
        http://www.fraterdeus.com/1496_Seutonius_Venice/photoalbum_photo_view?b_start=4

        Having said that, I'd wager that the 'old guys' would have given their souls to the devil to be able to print like Hamady ;-)

        Regards
        Peter

        AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@

        Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com http://www.galenaphotos.com
        Galena, Illinois http://www.alphabets.com
        Photography Irish Fiddle Political Observation
        Philosophy Fonts Lettering
      • Michael Andrews
        Odd, didn t know that art was simply craft made better If you learn something everyday, does learning ever get perfected? ...
        Message 3 of 29 , Nov 23, 2006
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          Odd, didn't know that art was simply craft made better

          If you learn something everyday, does learning ever
          get perfected?



          --- Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...> wrote:

          > Grendl
          >
          > >And I love the relative imprecision of letterpress.
          > >Sometimes the roughness is what makes it beautiful,
          > to
          > >my eye at least. The uneven impression
          > characteristic
          > >of old wood type on broadsides, the coarse, spotty
          > >printing of many incunabulae... all revealing the
          > >humanity of their printers.
          >
          > Bravo!
          > Of course, I also believe that Gerald's point is
          > well taken.
          > To Aspire to flawless execution is what makes craft
          > into Art.
          >
          > Of course, nothing in this world is perfect. Thus
          > the wisdom of the ancients who would deliberately
          > mar the symmetry of their works, leave a break in
          > the border of the rugs, put a thumbprint on the
          > corner of the masterpiece...so not to offend the
          > 'gods'
          >
          > The one true art is that of perfecting one's own
          > 'soul', and too often perfectionism (applied to
          > others, that is) is a rather nasty blot thereon.
          >
          > I'm also a big fan of the earliest printers. There's
          > more life in a single page printed in 1496 than in
          > the entirety of many 'fine printed' works of the
          > current era...
          >
          http://www.fraterdeus.com/1496_Seutonius_Venice/photoalbum_photo_view?b_start=4
          >
          > Having said that, I'd wager that the 'old guys'
          > would have given their souls to the devil to be able
          > to print like Hamady ;-)
          >
          > Regards
          > Peter
          >
          > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf
          > VeWdXc YbZa&@
          >
          > Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com
          > http://www.galenaphotos.com
          > Galena, Illinois http://www.alphabets.com
          > Photography Irish Fiddle Political Observation
          > Philosophy Fonts Lettering
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          > mailto:PPLetterpress-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          >




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        • Michael Andrews
          Yes, the unexpected. It is novelty that surprises us. Was Mozart Haydn perfected? ...
          Message 4 of 29 , Nov 23, 2006
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            Yes, the unexpected. It is novelty that surprises us.

            Was Mozart Haydn perfected?


            --- Gerald Lange <Bieler@...> wrote:

            > Grendl
            >
            > The aspiration for "perfection," so to speak, does
            > not in any way
            > preclude "experimentation and the unexpected." One
            > need look no
            > further than the work of Claire Van Vliet or Walter
            > Hamady to find
            > this in full bloom.
            >
            > Gerald
            > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
            >
            >
            > >
            > > A few thoughts on this statement from Gerald:
            > >
            > > "Printing can be a very precise craft. My
            > assumption
            > > is that if we
            > > don't aspire to that what is the point? If it's
            > close
            > > enough, it
            > > isn't. Why even bother if we don't care enough to
            > make
            > > it right? "
            > >
            > > From my perspective: to experiment, to have fun,
            > to
            > > loosen up, to enjoy oneself.
            > >
            > > I'm an offset press operator by day - I run a
            > > four-color waterless KPG-DI... tell me about
            > > precision! I don't aspire to perfection when I
            > print
            > > on a letterpress - it's for fun and for love of
            > the
            > > craft.
            > >
            > > And I love the relative imprecision of
            > letterpress.
            > > Sometimes the roughness is what makes it
            > beautiful, to
            > > my eye at least. The uneven impression
            > characteristic
            > > of old wood type on broadsides, the coarse, spotty
            > > printing of many incunabulae... all revealing the
            > > humanity of their printers.
            > >
            > > Don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating
            > carelessness
            > > here, but maybe a more relaxed approach that
            > allows
            > > room for experimentation and the unexpected.
            > >
            > > Grendl.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            ____________________________________________________________________________________
            > > Do you Yahoo!?
            > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail
            > beta.
            > > http://new.mail.yahoo.com
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            > mailto:PPLetterpress-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            >




            ____________________________________________________________________________________
            Do you Yahoo!?
            Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
            http://new.mail.yahoo.com
          • bellky6030
            ... . ... the ancients who would deliberately mar the symmetry of their works, leave a break in the border of the rugs, put a thumbprint on the corner of the
            Message 5 of 29 , Nov 23, 2006
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              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Grendl
              >
              .
              >
              > Of course, nothing in this world is perfect. Thus the wisdom of
              the ancients who would deliberately mar the symmetry of their works,
              leave a break in the border of the rugs, put a thumbprint on the
              corner of the masterpiece...so not to offend the 'gods'
              >

              Which seems to imply that perfection is this world is not only
              possible but achievable, thus the need to mar an otherwise perfect
              work. Why bother to deliberately mar a work that is already less
              than perfect?

              Regards,
              Halfdan
            • Gerald Lange
              Halfdan I have heard this in regard to Navajo rug making as well as early bookmaking. But it is more the inverse and more to your questioning. The idea being
              Message 6 of 29 , Nov 23, 2006
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                Halfdan

                I have heard this in regard to Navajo rug making as well as early
                bookmaking. But it is more the inverse and more to your questioning.
                The idea being that an evil spirit might inhabit the piece during the
                making and if a deliberate thrown stitch or incorrect letter is not
                put in place there is no way for the spirit to exit the work. There
                may be other crafts that carried this tradition as well. This may have
                been more an admission of the futility of perfection.

                Michael Tarachow and I once printed an impromptu broadside of the
                story during a visit of his to my shop and he suggested we "throw the
                stitch." I told him we wouldn't have to. Sure enough, my apprentice
                found the typo, post-printing of course. The typeface was Goudy Text
                and as I recall a v or a u was misinterpreted for the other.

                Gerald
                http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                > >
                > > Of course, nothing in this world is perfect. Thus the wisdom of
                > the ancients who would deliberately mar the symmetry of their works,
                > leave a break in the border of the rugs, put a thumbprint on the
                > corner of the masterpiece...so not to offend the 'gods'
                > >
                >
                > Which seems to imply that perfection is this world is not only
                > possible but achievable, thus the need to mar an otherwise perfect
                > work. Why bother to deliberately mar a work that is already less
                > than perfect?
                >
                > Regards,
                > Halfdan
                >
              • Farida Bee
                The inside covers of the little notebook that I keep in my apron pocket contain two quotes: There s no crying in printing. - Gerald Lange Although never
                Message 7 of 29 , Nov 24, 2006
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                  The inside covers of the little notebook that I keep in my apron pocket contain two quotes:

                  "There's no crying in printing." - Gerald Lange

                  "Although never attainable, strive relentlessly for perfection." - Lewis M. Allen

                  Farida



                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: bellky6030 <bellky6030@...>
                  To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 10:13:41 PM
                  Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: A couple of things


                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Grendl
                  > Of course, nothing in this world is perfect. Thus the wisdom of
                  the ancients who would deliberately mar the symmetry of their works,
                  leave a break in the border of the rugs, put a thumbprint on the
                  corner of the masterpiece...so not to offend the 'gods'
                  >

                  Which seems to imply that perfection is this world is not only
                  possible but achievable, thus the need to mar an otherwise perfect
                  work. Why bother to deliberately mar a work that is already less
                  than perfect?

                  Regards,
                  Halfdan
                • Casey McGarr
                  I started printing almost 6 years ago I could print the distressed look, you know, starving the type and images of ink. It looks cool and very vintage, allot
                  Message 8 of 29 , Nov 24, 2006
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                    I started printing almost 6 years ago I could print the distressed look, you know, starving
                    the type and images of ink. It looks cool and very vintage, allot of people I know like that
                    kind of printing. The experimental look is challenging in some respects but not that
                    difficult to print. Printing or designing the Òexperimental lookÓ is very subjective.

                    My challenge is being a very good printer. Kissing the paper or firm impression every time,
                    consistent ink coverage and density from number 1 to number 10 and to number 200,
                    they should all look the same.

                    It's easy just to let it run and forget about the ink or impression or registration. Some folks
                    think that's a cool letterpress look, which depending on the concept certainly can be but
                    it's not difficult to achieve.

                    When my friend Jim Irwin told me it would take 6 years to be a good letterpress printer I
                    really didn't understand the comment. Now that I'm closing in on 6 years, I understand
                    exactly what he meant.

                    I agree with Gerald, "Printing can be a very precise craft". Well, I'm trying to be more
                    precise because I've done a good bit of the non-precise.

                    With that said, I enjoy experimental and precise printing, it all depends on the job and the
                    concept.

                    Casey
                  • Peter Fraterdeus
                    Grendl (et al) Apologies for the cut& paste error. The correct URL: http://www.fraterdeus.com/lettering/books/1496_Seutonius_Venice/ best pf ... -- AzByCx
                    Message 9 of 29 , Nov 24, 2006
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                      Grendl (et al)
                      Apologies for the cut& paste error. The correct URL:
                      http://www.fraterdeus.com/lettering/books/1496_Seutonius_Venice/

                      best
                      pf


                      At 11:24 PM -0800 23 11 06, grendl "l–fkvist" wrote:
                      >Hi Peter:
                      >
                      >I appreciate (and agree with) your comments! But I
                      >couldn't get into that link you sent... can you check
                      >the address, or is there something I'm missing?
                      >
                      >Thanks!
                      >Grendl.
                      >

                      --
                      AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                      ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!

                      Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
                      Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography

                      Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com http://www.galenaphotos.com
                      Galena, Illinois http://www.alphabets.com
                      Photography Irish Fiddle Political Observation
                      Philosophy Fonts Lettering
                    • Peter Fraterdeus
                      ... Halfdan I think the idea is to rein the pretension of the artist. The Zen potters don t even try to make perfect bowls, yet achieve perfection in the
                      Message 10 of 29 , Nov 24, 2006
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                        > > Of course, nothing in this world is perfect. Thus the wisdom of
                        >the ancients who would deliberately mar the symmetry of their works,
                        >leave a break in the border of the rugs, put a thumbprint on the
                        >corner of the masterpiece...so not to offend the 'gods'
                        >>
                        >
                        >Which seems to imply that perfection is this world is not only
                        >possible but achievable, thus the need to mar an otherwise perfect
                        >work. Why bother to deliberately mar a work that is already less
                        >than perfect?
                        >
                        >Regards,
                        >Halfdan

                        Halfdan

                        I think the idea is to rein the pretension of the artist.
                        The Zen potters don't even try to make 'perfect' bowls, yet achieve perfection in the irregularity.

                        Without a doubt it is all in the eye of the beholder.
                        In design, there are those who idolize the Swiss, and then there are those who believe Swiss design represents merely the epitome of dehumanizing corporate standardization. Perfection in craft is (to my mind) a spiritual effort, done for the benefit of the artisan him/herself. The 'perfection' of the resulting object is a by-product, but generally, it is clearly obvious to the reasonable observer.

                        Ieuan Rees, of Llandybie, Wales (The master under whom I apprenticed in the 1980s) is fond of telling students "If you leave my workshop feeling like you know less than when you started, I've done my job well. Your eye and mind should always exceed the ability of your hand."

                        (Ieuan is a calligrapher, letterform and inscriptional designer. I studied letter-carving and calligraphy with him under an NEA Crafts Apprenticeship Grant )

                        Best seaasonal wishes!
                        pf

                        Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com http://www.galenaphotos.com
                        Galena, Illinois http://www.alphabets.com

                        --
                      • bellky6030
                        Perhaps it is just my cynical side which interpreted the inclusion of a deliberate flaw as a statement of the craftsman s ability to produce perfection. I
                        Message 11 of 29 , Nov 24, 2006
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                          Perhaps it is just my cynical side which interpreted the inclusion of
                          a deliberate flaw as a statement of the craftsman's ability to produce
                          perfection. I understand perfection to be a standard so high that it
                          is impossible to achieve in the physical plane, therefore flaws will
                          be present in any work produced without the necessity of deliberate
                          inclusion.

                          As I said, it's probably just me......

                          Regards,
                          Halfdan
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