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Re: A couple of things

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  • Gerald Lange
    Hi Jason Yeah, that was quite a flurry of offline correspondence regarding the 15-21. Happy it was solved. For impression control I would say yes, in most
    Message 1 of 29 , Nov 19, 2006
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      Hi Jason

      Yeah, that was quite a flurry of offline correspondence regarding the
      15-21. Happy it was solved.

      For impression control I would say yes, in most cases it does have to
      do strictly with packing (when at .918). There are times though when
      you might want to increase a thousands or two beyond that with an
      interlay or, more often, an underlay. This would be primarily when
      using block materials (engravings, linos), registration bases, etc. A
      large solid can sometimes benefit from such an adjustment. Likewise a
      drop of a thousands may be, on occasion, just what the doctor ordered.
      I run halftones (photopolymer) at .917, for instance.

      Parameters are necessary for exacting work, yes, but then, sometimes,
      you just have to nudge it a bit. But the key word here is a "bit."

      Gerald
      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


      >
      > Hi Gerald,
      >
      > Having spent the past 6 weekends working on a friend's 15-21 (w/
      adjustable bed) in order to sort out a serious impression problem
      (which has left the press useless for over 6 months), your post makes
      me smile.
      >
      > Part of the problem with the 15-21 came from some wood type that was
      too high, which not only seriously "dented" the cylinder packing, but
      also threw the impression rollers out of whack so that the cylinder
      carriage became "loose" and thus impression was terrible and utterly
      inconsistent; after the wood type incident, every single pass across
      the bed produced different but equally terrible impressions.
      >
      > For someone with as little experience as myself, it's taken these 6
      weekends of close study of schematics and much trial and error (along
      with plenty of suggestions from Fritz & others) to remedy the
      situation, and with this patient and careful work I've gained a much
      better understanding of the press mechanics, thus increasing my
      ability to maintain and repair the press in the future.
      >
      > The work included disassembling the trip mechanism & eccentric slide
      to clean & reset; releasing, adjusting endlessly & finally resetting
      both the impression & carriage rollers; and stripping & replacing all
      packing. This is a short list, but to understand what I was doing took
      a lot of trial and error. In the end it was hugely fulfilling to
      finally pull good prints from the press for the first time in half a
      year, but the real award was a better understanding of the press.
      >
      > So, in the end, a question out of ignorance: given your comments,
      what is the best method to increase/decrease impression?
      >
      > From what I can gather, the bed height is simply to account for
      non-type-high surfaces, such as the nasty wood type that caused so
      many problems here.
      >
      > For impression control, I would think we're simply talking about
      packing. Correct?
      >
      > ps. Apologies if my question is muddy with the sort of ignorance
      you're so frustrated by, but it's asked in order to clear the mud.
      >
      >
      > Jason
      >
      > _____________________________
      >
      > Jason Dewinetz
      > www.greenboathouse.com/dewinetz
      >
    • Gerald Lange
      Eric It s hardly a matter of sharing our trade secrets. We do that a plenty here. It s more a matter that the rational from which they are given is not
      Message 2 of 29 , Nov 19, 2006
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        Eric

        It's hardly a matter of sharing our trade secrets. We do that a plenty
        here. It's more a matter that the rational from which they are given
        is not accepted, thus they are not.

        Only when the student is ready, will the teacher arrive.

        Gerald
        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


        > It is because the link between the past and the future is pretty much
        > broken. There are no standards for teachers when it comes to
        > letterpress, especially as Book Arts; and with growing demand, anybody
        > who is willing to staff a workshop will likely have students. You may
        > recall one of the initiators of the Wiki-thing blamed us old farts for
        > not sharing our trade secrets with the next generation. Whatever truth
        > there is to that, many people who don't understand the subject
        > sufficiently are teaching it, and others who do know better are
        > teaching workarounds for faulty equipment and inadequate supplies,
        > which then get passed on as normal practice when their students become
        > teachers. Personally, I'd like to see a program to train and certify
        > teachers of letterpress in traditional as well as modern practice. I
        > doubt the occasional "apprenticeship" or what passes for it today is
        > enough to keep the knowledge in play.
        > Another part of the problem is that Vandercooks weren't intended
        > to be production machines for novices, and no instruction manuals for
        > that exist. This leads to a great deal of invention and improvisation,
        > some quite brilliant, some destructive. Motivated users of platens and
        > automatic machines have a lot of reference materials to study, written
        > at the school shop level and on up. Not so for the Vandercook, today's
        > apparent press of choice.
        >
        > --Eric Holub, SF
        >
      • Paul Romaine
        ... I was going to make a snarky comment like yes, oh Zen Master. However, there s a lot of truth to this comment, especially in a metaphoric context. When I
        Message 3 of 29 , Nov 20, 2006
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          > Only when the student is ready, will the teacher arrive.

          I was going to make a snarky comment like "yes, oh Zen Master."

          However, there's a lot of truth to this comment, especially in a
          metaphoric context. When I approached a subject material with a
          superior attitude or preconceptions, I learned a lot less and was
          prone to more mistakes. Sometimes we don't recognize our own
          arrogance/preconceptions/prejudices and various motes in the eye. It's
          awfully tough to recognize them in order to learn. When taking an
          elementary letterpress class, I had to keep my mouth shut, quiet the
          mind and just listen because I knew way too much about history of
          books, writing systems, languages, type, libraries and bibliography.
          It irritates me greatly to hear designers talk (fatuously!) about
          Pietro Bembo (a great Latinist but largely untranslated), but I shut
          my mouth so that I might learn something new.

          There's also just the question of aptitudes.... If you are a klutz,
          with limited hand skills and a tendency to break things (I'm
          raising *my* hand here), you might want to find ways to work near
          what you love or to promote it or to help those who do it well, rather
          than to work in a, um, hands-on environment.

          Paul
        • alex brooks
          Today I rescued a pair of Uni I rollers from a professor s studio where they had been sitting on a shelf, unsupported, for probably the last 20 years. They
          Message 4 of 29 , Nov 21, 2006
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            Today I rescued a pair of Uni I rollers from a professor's studio
            where they had been sitting on a shelf, unsupported, for probably the
            last 20 years. They look in decent shape except the 1/2 inch strip
            where they were resting on the shelf which has gone melty. I know the
            topic of a totally melty roller has been discussed, but is there any
            hope for this roller? I believe the melted, sticky part is only on
            the surface, but it would not come off with a solvent & rag. I think
            they are rubber - the same black rollers I have seen on all Vandercooks.

            Is it possible to regrind these rollers, or save them some other way,
            or are they a total loss? [I know that you can recast rollers on the
            cores, but short of that...]



            On a separate note. I was hoping these rollers would fit the
            Universal III at the University of Kentucky where i'll be assisting
            in a wood-engraving class this spring. Someone lost the rollers,
            cores, & bearers to the press and we'd like to get some new ones. If
            anyone has any used Uni III rollers & bearers, please send me a note
            offlist.

            thanks,
            alex brooks
            press eight seventeen
            lexington kentucky
          • nagraph1
            Alex--Only the bearing blocks, gear, and end bolts are the same between the 2 presses, with the III obviously being wider thus requiring another dimension of
            Message 5 of 29 , Nov 21, 2006
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              Alex--Only the bearing blocks, gear, and end bolts are the same
              between the 2 presses, with the III obviously being wider thus
              requiring another dimension of core length. They are recoverable,
              and should be wrapped in newspaper for return to your choice of
              roller maker as it sounds like they are starting to "revert." There
              is no way to salvage the rollers you describe. Even if not showing
              flat spots and oozing properties, 20 years or what ever is too long
              a period to expect rollers to be serviceable. A roller maker would
              not even attempt to regrind what you have. Regrinding is a stop gap
              route when rollers are still sound, but have potential for some
              additional use--the amount of material removed my throw roller
              settings past what the bearing blocks have built in them to adjust
              for proper inking.

              Fritz



              --PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, alex brooks <alex@...> wrote:
              >
              > Today I rescued a pair of Uni I rollers from a professor's studio
              > where they had been sitting on a shelf, unsupported, for probably
              the
              > last 20 years. They look in decent shape except the 1/2 inch
              strip
              > where they were resting on the shelf which has gone melty. I know
              the
              > topic of a totally melty roller has been discussed, but is there
              any
              > hope for this roller? I believe the melted, sticky part is only
              on
              > the surface, but it would not come off with a solvent & rag. I
              think
              > they are rubber - the same black rollers I have seen on all
              Vandercooks.
              >
              > Is it possible to regrind these rollers, or save them some other
              way,
              > or are they a total loss? [I know that you can recast rollers on
              the
              > cores, but short of that...]
              >
              >
              >
              > On a separate note. I was hoping these rollers would fit the
              > Universal III at the University of Kentucky where i'll be
              assisting
              > in a wood-engraving class this spring. Someone lost the rollers,
              > cores, & bearers to the press and we'd like to get some new ones.
              If
              > anyone has any used Uni III rollers & bearers, please send me a
              note
              > offlist.
              >
              > thanks,
              > alex brooks
              > press eight seventeen
              > lexington kentucky
              >
            • Gerald Lange
              Michael It s a very big box. And it s all pretty much in there as it is. We ve lost far more than can be imagined and plumbing what is available from the past
              Message 6 of 29 , Nov 22, 2006
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                Michael

                It's a very big box. And it's all pretty much in there as it is. We've
                lost far more than can be imagined and plumbing what is available from
                the past is often quite useful in this regard. However, re-inventing
                on a primal level what already exists as industrial tried and true is
                less the way than examining current developments and finding ways to
                apply them to our common cause. This is the "practical and theoretical
                future of letterpress."

                I'm fairly confident in saying that the twin technologies of the
                photopolymer plate process conjoined with digital type and internet
                communications have actually done the most to save studio letterpress,
                hobbyist printing, etc., post the demise of the foundries and the
                industrial abandonment of letterpress. But I can not say with any
                certainty that the future of what it is that we do is secure because
                of them. It is a matter of keeping our ears to the ground.

                Gerald
                http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                >
                > Hi, Gerald,
                >
                > Thanks for the plug. My ideas and suggestions on letterpresslibre
                are posted there primarily to encourage a discussion, 'outside the
                box', on the practical and theoretical future of letterpress. Not all
                of them are going to be workable or desirable, but they will all be
                written in an open minded spirit of enquiry. I feel sure that you
                will agree to that as a good thing. As to your comments about the
                inner tube idea, wouldn't a set of adjustable trucks be the answer to
                your principal objection? Also, you failed in your critique to mention
                that I also suggested that in the smaller sizes, roller and truck
                assemblies specifically designed for user replaceable covers could be
                developed.
                >
                > The .918 question is an interesting one. Printing is not, I
                believe, as some would have everyone think, a particularly precise
                craft. For most letterpress printers it is the process whereby little
                bits of metal are pressed into soft, often dampened paper, cushioned
                by more paper, using elderly, centenarian printing presses. It is NOT
                aerospace engineering. The old time letterpress printers in England,
                printing for their livelihood, and who seemed to manage OK, used an
                English shilling coin as a type high gauge. I don't have one of those,
                so I use a modern Euro coin, which is only 4/1000 inch, the thickness
                of 3 sheets of cheap inkjet paper, shy of 23.3mm. That's quite close
                enough for me.
                >
                > But some people can't resist arguing about how many angels can
                dance on the head of a pin.
                >
                > Please, the next time you are at letterpresslibre, add a comment,
                or post a question. There must be something you're not sure about.
                Everyone is welcome.
                >
                > Michael.
                >
                > Gerald Lange <Bieler@...> wrote:
                > Today I completed the instruction of a letterpress class
                where a
                > number of Vandercooks are equippped with adjustable beds. As a matter
                > of course and apparently a mandate, the students are told (by the
                > powers that be) that to increase impression you raise the bed. Well,
                > this is just wrong. First of all, you are not only increasing
                > impression, you are effecting the inking roller height, and, you are
                > essentially opposing the engineering of a press that is designed to
                > print at .918.
                >
                > Okay. I've had to invent a way to determine .918 on these presses
                > which has nothing to do with the now completely out of kilter gauges.
                >
                > Also, as an announcement, there is a new letterpress list (tagged "the
                > future of letterpress")
                >
                > http://letterpresslibre.wikispaces.com/
                >
                > however, one of the first suggestions by one of the moderators ponders
                > the use of bicycle intertubes as a slip on for inking rollers (which
                > would, of course, increase the diameter of the rollers, not to mention
                > other complications).
                >
                > There is a fundamental benign ignorance of engineering technology at
                > play here. How has letterpress come to this?
                >
                > Gerald
                > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                >
              • Gerald Lange
                Michael Second post here to address your secondary issues. I would disagree. Printing can be a very precise craft. My assumption is that if we don t aspire to
                Message 7 of 29 , Nov 22, 2006
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                  Michael

                  Second post here to address your secondary issues. I would disagree.
                  Printing can be a very precise craft. My assumption is that if we
                  don't aspire to that what is the point? If it's close enough, it
                  isn't. Why even bother if we don't care enough to make it right?

                  And, speaking as a moderator, I don't care what you do elsewhere, but
                  best to play it straight here. No mind games.

                  Gerald
                  http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                  >
                  > The .918 question is an interesting one. Printing is not, I
                  believe, as some would have everyone think, a particularly precise
                  craft. For most letterpress printers it is the process whereby little
                  bits of metal are pressed into soft, often dampened paper, cushioned
                  by more paper, using elderly, centenarian printing presses. It is NOT
                  aerospace engineering. The old time letterpress printers in England,
                  printing for their livelihood, and who seemed to manage OK, used an
                  English shilling coin as a type high gauge. I don't have one of those,
                  so I use a modern Euro coin, which is only 4/1000 inch, the thickness
                  of 3 sheets of cheap inkjet paper, shy of 23.3mm. That's quite close
                  enough for me.
                  >
                  > But some people can't resist arguing about how many angels can
                  dance on the head of a pin.
                  >
                  > Please, the next time you are at letterpresslibre, add a comment,
                  or post a question. There must be something you're not sure about.
                  Everyone is welcome.
                  >
                  > Michael.
                  >
                  > Gerald Lange <Bieler@...> wrote:
                  > Today I completed the instruction of a letterpress class
                  where a
                  > number of Vandercooks are equippped with adjustable beds. As a matter
                  > of course and apparently a mandate, the students are told (by the
                  > powers that be) that to increase impression you raise the bed. Well,
                  > this is just wrong. First of all, you are not only increasing
                  > impression, you are effecting the inking roller height, and, you are
                  > essentially opposing the engineering of a press that is designed to
                  > print at .918.
                  >
                  > Okay. I've had to invent a way to determine .918 on these presses
                  > which has nothing to do with the now completely out of kilter gauges.
                  >
                  > Also, as an announcement, there is a new letterpress list (tagged "the
                  > future of letterpress")
                  >
                  > http://letterpresslibre.wikispaces.com/
                  >
                  > however, one of the first suggestions by one of the moderators ponders
                  > the use of bicycle intertubes as a slip on for inking rollers (which
                  > would, of course, increase the diameter of the rollers, not to mention
                  > other complications).
                  >
                  > There is a fundamental benign ignorance of engineering technology at
                  > play here. How has letterpress come to this?
                  >
                  > Gerald
                  > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Sponsored Link
                  >
                  > $200,000 mortgage for $660/mo - 30/15 yr fixed, reduce debt, home
                  equity - Click now for info
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • grendll�fkvist
                  A few thoughts on this statement from Gerald: Printing can be a very precise craft. My assumption is that if we don t aspire to that what is the point? If
                  Message 8 of 29 , Nov 23, 2006
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                    A few thoughts on this statement from Gerald:

                    "Printing can be a very precise craft. My assumption
                    is that if we
                    don't aspire to that what is the point? If it's close
                    enough, it
                    isn't. Why even bother if we don't care enough to make
                    it right? "

                    From my perspective: to experiment, to have fun, to
                    loosen up, to enjoy oneself.

                    I'm an offset press operator by day - I run a
                    four-color waterless KPG-DI... tell me about
                    precision! I don't aspire to perfection when I print
                    on a letterpress - it's for fun and for love of the
                    craft.

                    And I love the relative imprecision of letterpress.
                    Sometimes the roughness is what makes it beautiful, to
                    my eye at least. The uneven impression characteristic
                    of old wood type on broadsides, the coarse, spotty
                    printing of many incunabulae... all revealing the
                    humanity of their printers.

                    Don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating carelessness
                    here, but maybe a more relaxed approach that allows
                    room for experimentation and the unexpected.

                    Grendl.





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                  • Gerald Lange
                    Grendl The aspiration for perfection, so to speak, does not in any way preclude experimentation and the unexpected. One need look no further than the work
                    Message 9 of 29 , Nov 23, 2006
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                      Grendl

                      The aspiration for "perfection," so to speak, does not in any way
                      preclude "experimentation and the unexpected." One need look no
                      further than the work of Claire Van Vliet or Walter Hamady to find
                      this in full bloom.

                      Gerald
                      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                      >
                      > A few thoughts on this statement from Gerald:
                      >
                      > "Printing can be a very precise craft. My assumption
                      > is that if we
                      > don't aspire to that what is the point? If it's close
                      > enough, it
                      > isn't. Why even bother if we don't care enough to make
                      > it right? "
                      >
                      > From my perspective: to experiment, to have fun, to
                      > loosen up, to enjoy oneself.
                      >
                      > I'm an offset press operator by day - I run a
                      > four-color waterless KPG-DI... tell me about
                      > precision! I don't aspire to perfection when I print
                      > on a letterpress - it's for fun and for love of the
                      > craft.
                      >
                      > And I love the relative imprecision of letterpress.
                      > Sometimes the roughness is what makes it beautiful, to
                      > my eye at least. The uneven impression characteristic
                      > of old wood type on broadsides, the coarse, spotty
                      > printing of many incunabulae... all revealing the
                      > humanity of their printers.
                      >
                      > Don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating carelessness
                      > here, but maybe a more relaxed approach that allows
                      > room for experimentation and the unexpected.
                      >
                      > Grendl.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
                      > Do you Yahoo!?
                      > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
                      > http://new.mail.yahoo.com
                      >
                    • Peter Fraterdeus
                      Grendl ... Bravo! Of course, I also believe that Gerald s point is well taken. To Aspire to flawless execution is what makes craft into Art. Of course, nothing
                      Message 10 of 29 , Nov 23, 2006
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                        Grendl

                        >And I love the relative imprecision of letterpress.
                        >Sometimes the roughness is what makes it beautiful, to
                        >my eye at least. The uneven impression characteristic
                        >of old wood type on broadsides, the coarse, spotty
                        >printing of many incunabulae... all revealing the
                        >humanity of their printers.

                        Bravo!
                        Of course, I also believe that Gerald's point is well taken.
                        To Aspire to flawless execution is what makes craft into Art.

                        Of course, nothing in this world is perfect. Thus the wisdom of the ancients who would deliberately mar the symmetry of their works, leave a break in the border of the rugs, put a thumbprint on the corner of the masterpiece...so not to offend the 'gods'

                        The one true art is that of perfecting one's own 'soul', and too often perfectionism (applied to others, that is) is a rather nasty blot thereon.

                        I'm also a big fan of the earliest printers. There's more life in a single page printed in 1496 than in the entirety of many 'fine printed' works of the current era...
                        http://www.fraterdeus.com/1496_Seutonius_Venice/photoalbum_photo_view?b_start=4

                        Having said that, I'd wager that the 'old guys' would have given their souls to the devil to be able to print like Hamady ;-)

                        Regards
                        Peter

                        AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@

                        Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com http://www.galenaphotos.com
                        Galena, Illinois http://www.alphabets.com
                        Photography Irish Fiddle Political Observation
                        Philosophy Fonts Lettering
                      • Michael Andrews
                        Odd, didn t know that art was simply craft made better If you learn something everyday, does learning ever get perfected? ...
                        Message 11 of 29 , Nov 23, 2006
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                          Odd, didn't know that art was simply craft made better

                          If you learn something everyday, does learning ever
                          get perfected?



                          --- Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...> wrote:

                          > Grendl
                          >
                          > >And I love the relative imprecision of letterpress.
                          > >Sometimes the roughness is what makes it beautiful,
                          > to
                          > >my eye at least. The uneven impression
                          > characteristic
                          > >of old wood type on broadsides, the coarse, spotty
                          > >printing of many incunabulae... all revealing the
                          > >humanity of their printers.
                          >
                          > Bravo!
                          > Of course, I also believe that Gerald's point is
                          > well taken.
                          > To Aspire to flawless execution is what makes craft
                          > into Art.
                          >
                          > Of course, nothing in this world is perfect. Thus
                          > the wisdom of the ancients who would deliberately
                          > mar the symmetry of their works, leave a break in
                          > the border of the rugs, put a thumbprint on the
                          > corner of the masterpiece...so not to offend the
                          > 'gods'
                          >
                          > The one true art is that of perfecting one's own
                          > 'soul', and too often perfectionism (applied to
                          > others, that is) is a rather nasty blot thereon.
                          >
                          > I'm also a big fan of the earliest printers. There's
                          > more life in a single page printed in 1496 than in
                          > the entirety of many 'fine printed' works of the
                          > current era...
                          >
                          http://www.fraterdeus.com/1496_Seutonius_Venice/photoalbum_photo_view?b_start=4
                          >
                          > Having said that, I'd wager that the 'old guys'
                          > would have given their souls to the devil to be able
                          > to print like Hamady ;-)
                          >
                          > Regards
                          > Peter
                          >
                          > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf
                          > VeWdXc YbZa&@
                          >
                          > Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com
                          > http://www.galenaphotos.com
                          > Galena, Illinois http://www.alphabets.com
                          > Photography Irish Fiddle Political Observation
                          > Philosophy Fonts Lettering
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          > mailto:PPLetterpress-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >




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                        • Michael Andrews
                          Yes, the unexpected. It is novelty that surprises us. Was Mozart Haydn perfected? ...
                          Message 12 of 29 , Nov 23, 2006
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                            Yes, the unexpected. It is novelty that surprises us.

                            Was Mozart Haydn perfected?


                            --- Gerald Lange <Bieler@...> wrote:

                            > Grendl
                            >
                            > The aspiration for "perfection," so to speak, does
                            > not in any way
                            > preclude "experimentation and the unexpected." One
                            > need look no
                            > further than the work of Claire Van Vliet or Walter
                            > Hamady to find
                            > this in full bloom.
                            >
                            > Gerald
                            > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                            >
                            >
                            > >
                            > > A few thoughts on this statement from Gerald:
                            > >
                            > > "Printing can be a very precise craft. My
                            > assumption
                            > > is that if we
                            > > don't aspire to that what is the point? If it's
                            > close
                            > > enough, it
                            > > isn't. Why even bother if we don't care enough to
                            > make
                            > > it right? "
                            > >
                            > > From my perspective: to experiment, to have fun,
                            > to
                            > > loosen up, to enjoy oneself.
                            > >
                            > > I'm an offset press operator by day - I run a
                            > > four-color waterless KPG-DI... tell me about
                            > > precision! I don't aspire to perfection when I
                            > print
                            > > on a letterpress - it's for fun and for love of
                            > the
                            > > craft.
                            > >
                            > > And I love the relative imprecision of
                            > letterpress.
                            > > Sometimes the roughness is what makes it
                            > beautiful, to
                            > > my eye at least. The uneven impression
                            > characteristic
                            > > of old wood type on broadsides, the coarse, spotty
                            > > printing of many incunabulae... all revealing the
                            > > humanity of their printers.
                            > >
                            > > Don't get me wrong - I'm not advocating
                            > carelessness
                            > > here, but maybe a more relaxed approach that
                            > allows
                            > > room for experimentation and the unexpected.
                            > >
                            > > Grendl.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            ____________________________________________________________________________________
                            > > Do you Yahoo!?
                            > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail
                            > beta.
                            > > http://new.mail.yahoo.com
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            > mailto:PPLetterpress-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >




                            ____________________________________________________________________________________
                            Do you Yahoo!?
                            Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
                            http://new.mail.yahoo.com
                          • bellky6030
                            ... . ... the ancients who would deliberately mar the symmetry of their works, leave a break in the border of the rugs, put a thumbprint on the corner of the
                            Message 13 of 29 , Nov 23, 2006
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                              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Grendl
                              >
                              .
                              >
                              > Of course, nothing in this world is perfect. Thus the wisdom of
                              the ancients who would deliberately mar the symmetry of their works,
                              leave a break in the border of the rugs, put a thumbprint on the
                              corner of the masterpiece...so not to offend the 'gods'
                              >

                              Which seems to imply that perfection is this world is not only
                              possible but achievable, thus the need to mar an otherwise perfect
                              work. Why bother to deliberately mar a work that is already less
                              than perfect?

                              Regards,
                              Halfdan
                            • Gerald Lange
                              Halfdan I have heard this in regard to Navajo rug making as well as early bookmaking. But it is more the inverse and more to your questioning. The idea being
                              Message 14 of 29 , Nov 23, 2006
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                                Halfdan

                                I have heard this in regard to Navajo rug making as well as early
                                bookmaking. But it is more the inverse and more to your questioning.
                                The idea being that an evil spirit might inhabit the piece during the
                                making and if a deliberate thrown stitch or incorrect letter is not
                                put in place there is no way for the spirit to exit the work. There
                                may be other crafts that carried this tradition as well. This may have
                                been more an admission of the futility of perfection.

                                Michael Tarachow and I once printed an impromptu broadside of the
                                story during a visit of his to my shop and he suggested we "throw the
                                stitch." I told him we wouldn't have to. Sure enough, my apprentice
                                found the typo, post-printing of course. The typeface was Goudy Text
                                and as I recall a v or a u was misinterpreted for the other.

                                Gerald
                                http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                                > >
                                > > Of course, nothing in this world is perfect. Thus the wisdom of
                                > the ancients who would deliberately mar the symmetry of their works,
                                > leave a break in the border of the rugs, put a thumbprint on the
                                > corner of the masterpiece...so not to offend the 'gods'
                                > >
                                >
                                > Which seems to imply that perfection is this world is not only
                                > possible but achievable, thus the need to mar an otherwise perfect
                                > work. Why bother to deliberately mar a work that is already less
                                > than perfect?
                                >
                                > Regards,
                                > Halfdan
                                >
                              • Farida Bee
                                The inside covers of the little notebook that I keep in my apron pocket contain two quotes: There s no crying in printing. - Gerald Lange Although never
                                Message 15 of 29 , Nov 24, 2006
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                                  The inside covers of the little notebook that I keep in my apron pocket contain two quotes:

                                  "There's no crying in printing." - Gerald Lange

                                  "Although never attainable, strive relentlessly for perfection." - Lewis M. Allen

                                  Farida



                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: bellky6030 <bellky6030@...>
                                  To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 10:13:41 PM
                                  Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: A couple of things


                                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Grendl
                                  > Of course, nothing in this world is perfect. Thus the wisdom of
                                  the ancients who would deliberately mar the symmetry of their works,
                                  leave a break in the border of the rugs, put a thumbprint on the
                                  corner of the masterpiece...so not to offend the 'gods'
                                  >

                                  Which seems to imply that perfection is this world is not only
                                  possible but achievable, thus the need to mar an otherwise perfect
                                  work. Why bother to deliberately mar a work that is already less
                                  than perfect?

                                  Regards,
                                  Halfdan
                                • Casey McGarr
                                  I started printing almost 6 years ago I could print the distressed look, you know, starving the type and images of ink. It looks cool and very vintage, allot
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Nov 24, 2006
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                                    I started printing almost 6 years ago I could print the distressed look, you know, starving
                                    the type and images of ink. It looks cool and very vintage, allot of people I know like that
                                    kind of printing. The experimental look is challenging in some respects but not that
                                    difficult to print. Printing or designing the Òexperimental lookÓ is very subjective.

                                    My challenge is being a very good printer. Kissing the paper or firm impression every time,
                                    consistent ink coverage and density from number 1 to number 10 and to number 200,
                                    they should all look the same.

                                    It's easy just to let it run and forget about the ink or impression or registration. Some folks
                                    think that's a cool letterpress look, which depending on the concept certainly can be but
                                    it's not difficult to achieve.

                                    When my friend Jim Irwin told me it would take 6 years to be a good letterpress printer I
                                    really didn't understand the comment. Now that I'm closing in on 6 years, I understand
                                    exactly what he meant.

                                    I agree with Gerald, "Printing can be a very precise craft". Well, I'm trying to be more
                                    precise because I've done a good bit of the non-precise.

                                    With that said, I enjoy experimental and precise printing, it all depends on the job and the
                                    concept.

                                    Casey
                                  • Peter Fraterdeus
                                    Grendl (et al) Apologies for the cut& paste error. The correct URL: http://www.fraterdeus.com/lettering/books/1496_Seutonius_Venice/ best pf ... -- AzByCx
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Nov 24, 2006
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                                      Grendl (et al)
                                      Apologies for the cut& paste error. The correct URL:
                                      http://www.fraterdeus.com/lettering/books/1496_Seutonius_Venice/

                                      best
                                      pf


                                      At 11:24 PM -0800 23 11 06, grendl "l–fkvist" wrote:
                                      >Hi Peter:
                                      >
                                      >I appreciate (and agree with) your comments! But I
                                      >couldn't get into that link you sent... can you check
                                      >the address, or is there something I'm missing?
                                      >
                                      >Thanks!
                                      >Grendl.
                                      >

                                      --
                                      AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                                      ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!

                                      Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
                                      Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography

                                      Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com http://www.galenaphotos.com
                                      Galena, Illinois http://www.alphabets.com
                                      Photography Irish Fiddle Political Observation
                                      Philosophy Fonts Lettering
                                    • Peter Fraterdeus
                                      ... Halfdan I think the idea is to rein the pretension of the artist. The Zen potters don t even try to make perfect bowls, yet achieve perfection in the
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Nov 24, 2006
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                                        > > Of course, nothing in this world is perfect. Thus the wisdom of
                                        >the ancients who would deliberately mar the symmetry of their works,
                                        >leave a break in the border of the rugs, put a thumbprint on the
                                        >corner of the masterpiece...so not to offend the 'gods'
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >Which seems to imply that perfection is this world is not only
                                        >possible but achievable, thus the need to mar an otherwise perfect
                                        >work. Why bother to deliberately mar a work that is already less
                                        >than perfect?
                                        >
                                        >Regards,
                                        >Halfdan

                                        Halfdan

                                        I think the idea is to rein the pretension of the artist.
                                        The Zen potters don't even try to make 'perfect' bowls, yet achieve perfection in the irregularity.

                                        Without a doubt it is all in the eye of the beholder.
                                        In design, there are those who idolize the Swiss, and then there are those who believe Swiss design represents merely the epitome of dehumanizing corporate standardization. Perfection in craft is (to my mind) a spiritual effort, done for the benefit of the artisan him/herself. The 'perfection' of the resulting object is a by-product, but generally, it is clearly obvious to the reasonable observer.

                                        Ieuan Rees, of Llandybie, Wales (The master under whom I apprenticed in the 1980s) is fond of telling students "If you leave my workshop feeling like you know less than when you started, I've done my job well. Your eye and mind should always exceed the ability of your hand."

                                        (Ieuan is a calligrapher, letterform and inscriptional designer. I studied letter-carving and calligraphy with him under an NEA Crafts Apprenticeship Grant )

                                        Best seaasonal wishes!
                                        pf

                                        Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com http://www.galenaphotos.com
                                        Galena, Illinois http://www.alphabets.com

                                        --
                                      • bellky6030
                                        Perhaps it is just my cynical side which interpreted the inclusion of a deliberate flaw as a statement of the craftsman s ability to produce perfection. I
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Nov 24, 2006
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                                          Perhaps it is just my cynical side which interpreted the inclusion of
                                          a deliberate flaw as a statement of the craftsman's ability to produce
                                          perfection. I understand perfection to be a standard so high that it
                                          is impossible to achieve in the physical plane, therefore flaws will
                                          be present in any work produced without the necessity of deliberate
                                          inclusion.

                                          As I said, it's probably just me......

                                          Regards,
                                          Halfdan
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