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Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: anything else on new presses?

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  • livres@artnet.net
    It would be cheaper to look at the german ebay or ads in websites where you can get a FAG OR KORREX Press, which both have still suppliers for parts. charles
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 29, 2006
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      It would be cheaper to look at the german ebay or ads in websites
      where you can get a FAG OR KORREX Press, which both have still
      suppliers for parts.

      charles
      On Oct 29, 2006, at 1:55 PM, nagraph1 wrote:

      > Expensive is the operative word for what are very basic machines.
      > The currency conversion comes to $11,642.73 for the letterpress
      > machine shown. Add the VAT, shipping, duty, etc., and it mounts even
      > higher. And that's the key point about any new attempt for producing
      > a flat bed cylinder press like any of the Vandercooks or Challenges,
      > etc. This press doesn't seem to have any "modern" features, yet
      > accurately reflects the real word cost of making just about any type
      > of machinery.
      >
      > How can it be done? Use existing and known materials and plans and
      > engineering. Not much has changed since the 50s or 60s in
      > letterpress press technology that I'm aware of.
      >
      > Fritz
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "splitflexi" <dempster@...>
      > wrote:
      >>
      >> Regarding the recent thread on "vandercook bubble/press poll":
      >>
      >> Lots was said about why it can't be done. How about a discussion
      > of how it could be? "It"
      >> of course being producing a modern cylinder proof press designed
      > to suit the various
      >> needs of contemporary letterpress (i.e. not neccesarily a
      > vandercook reproduction). Any
      >> thoughts?
      >>
      >> Incidentally, here are two more (expensive) presses currently in
      > production that might be
      >> of interest in this discussion:
      >>
      >> http://www.harryrochat.com/reliefproof.htm
      >> http://www.harryrochat.com/offset.htm
      >>
      >>
      >> D.Dempster
      >> Honolulu, Hawaii
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >

      Printmaker
      (Letterpress & Intaglio)

      ------------------------------------
      L.A Book Arts, Inc.
      The Custom Bindery
      Krause Intaglio
      310.360.7265
      www.Custombindery.com
      --------------------------------------
    • Gerald Lange
      D. Well, it obviously can be done. It s a matter of thinking outside of the box. The key words are simplicity, precision. Basically eliminate the bells and
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 29, 2006
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        D.

        Well, it obviously can be done. It's a matter of thinking outside of
        the box. The key words are simplicity, precision. Basically eliminate
        the bells and whistles, produce a press that is dependable and
        repairable, that uses state of the art engineering and mechanics. But,
        as has been stated, this will cost a great deal of money, both for the
        prototypes and the actual manufacturing. And, as has also been stated,
        this depends on the probable market, or perhaps marketing.

        This could easily happen but it certainly is not going to be produced
        by the naysayers as, given the fact of the "bubble," it already would
        be in place.

        Gerald
        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "splitflexi" <dempster@...> wrote:
        >
        > Regarding the recent thread on "vandercook bubble/press poll":
        >
        > Lots was said about why it can't be done. How about a discussion of
        how it could be? "It"
        > of course being producing a modern cylinder proof press designed to
        suit the various
        > needs of contemporary letterpress (i.e. not neccesarily a vandercook
        reproduction). Any
        > thoughts?
        >
        > Incidentally, here are two more (expensive) presses currently in
        production that might be
        > of interest in this discussion:
        >
        > http://www.harryrochat.com/reliefproof.htm
        > http://www.harryrochat.com/offset.htm
        >
        >
        > D.Dempster
        > Honolulu, Hawaii
        >
      • alex brooks
        ... I ve been quiet until now but thought i d speak up with the above quote. To my knowledge, the letterpress bubble is driven and supplied by art schools
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 29, 2006
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          >
          > On Oct 29, 2006, at 4:47 PM, Mark Wilden wrote
          > Interesting. It has foot-operated grippers, but (apparently) no
          > cylinder
          > trip mechanism. An adjustable bed. No inking mechanism. Looks
          > similar to a
          > late-model Vandercook 1.

          I've been quiet until now but thought i'd speak up with the above
          quote. To my knowledge, the letterpress "bubble" is driven and
          supplied by art schools who generally use vandercooks in the above
          way; just as you would a printmaking press. I'm assisting in a class
          this spring, printing wood-engravings on a UNI 3 whose rollers have
          never been used in its current situation. The professor inks each cut
          by hand and then uses the impression power of the press to print. I
          believe this is the mass market for new presses - art schools and
          those that have learned in art schools. That's why wood type is so
          popular and expensive: because it's easy to print wood type in an art-
          school environment.

          Daniel Morris made a comment that if you can't find a press you
          aren't looking. I think that if you can't find a press you either
          don't have enough money or you haven't spent the requisite time
          learning the craft in the community you practice the craft. If you
          don't have enough money for a used press you don't have it for a new
          press. But in my experience there's plenty of presses already out
          there. In my small town I know of two places with 5+ presses, where
          you can go and set type and print for free; one at a school supported
          press/museum, one a working printer/publisher. Both take unpaid
          apprentices and welcome all. There are two private letterpress
          studios. There are at least three hobby printers. There's a guy with
          three windmills in his garage that only does numbering jobs and
          refused to let me come and see them. There's an art professor who was
          happy to give me my UNI I, has begged me for years to take the 325
          (which i'll get soon), and will probably give me the UNI 3 and a load
          of type-cabinets. There's a house downtown with a colts armory, two
          SP-15's (one motorized, one non-motorized) and a washington-style
          press in the basement - the owner claims the presses go with the
          house after he dies, but he doesn't use them and i'm sure the right
          price would get them out of the basement. I've been offered a 14x C&P
          in an old smokehouse, a 12x C&P in an old printshop, and as many 8x's
          as I could take. I know all this because i've been here for the past
          eight years and i've been printing and talking to other printers the
          whole time. Printers like young people who are dedicated and work
          hard and learn the craft. Printers want to see printing furthered.
          They don't like people who show up knowing next to nothing and say -
          "why can't i find an SP-15?"

          if there's six or seven Vandercooks in a town of 300,000, how many
          are there in your town?

          A Vandercook has all the features I need. Any new printmaking-style
          press wouldn't allow me to do what I do. The only other press i'd
          want would be a NOS Vandercook (doesn't exist) or a used FAG or
          Heidleberg (couldn't afford either).

          An alternative solution would be to professionally rebuild
          Vandercooks, like in the company's last manufacturing days. This
          would return like-new presses to the market at a fraction of the cost.

          maybe i just found myself a career (until the bubble bursts and we
          all become uncool again)

          -alex (grumpy)
          press eight seventeen
          lexington, kentucky
        • Gerald Lange
          Hi Charles This isn t entirely true. I have a friend who, a short while back, purchased a factory reconditioned FAG, and certain parts are no longer available.
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 29, 2006
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            Hi Charles

            This isn't entirely true. I have a friend who, a short while back,
            purchased a factory reconditioned FAG, and certain parts are no longer
            available. Nevertheless, creme de la creme.

            Gerald
            http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, livres@... wrote:
            >
            > It would be cheaper to look at the german ebay or ads in websites
            > where you can get a FAG OR KORREX Press, which both have still
            > suppliers for parts.
            >
            > charles
            >
          • Gerald Lange
            Alex The relatively recent increase in the pricing of Vandercooks was not the result of need (I ve maintained a Vandercook want list for years—but no
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 29, 2006
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              Alex

              The relatively recent increase in the pricing of Vandercooks was not
              the result of need (I've maintained a Vandercook want list for
              years—but no longer)—it was the result of greed and manipulation of
              the market (and the folks responsible know who they are). You can
              track this in the Letpress archives. No one will realistically pay
              more than the going rate for anything.

              The going rate for a used Vandercook in very good condition was about
              a grand, from a knowledgable seller, for well over twenty-five years.
              It was not the "need" for more Vandercooks that inspired the price
              increase.

              Gerald
              http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



              >
              > I've been quiet until now but thought i'd speak up with the above
              > quote. To my knowledge, the letterpress "bubble" is driven and
              > supplied by art schools who generally use vandercooks in the above
              > way; just as you would a printmaking press.

              . . . . .


              >
              > An alternative solution would be to professionally rebuild
              > Vandercooks, like in the company's last manufacturing days. This
              > would return like-new presses to the market at a fraction of the cost.
              >
              > maybe i just found myself a career (until the bubble bursts and we
              > all become uncool again)
              >
              > -alex (grumpy)
              > press eight seventeen
              > lexington, kentucky
              >
            • parallel_imp
              ... Gerald, I think there s a bit more to this than just greed and market manipulation. There is also a growing demand; and in spite of all the resources
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
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                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                >
                > Alex
                >
                > The relatively recent increase in the pricing of Vandercooks was not
                > the result of need (I've maintained a Vandercook want list for
                > years—but no longer)—it was the result of greed and manipulation of
                > the market (and the folks responsible know who they are). You can
                > track this in the Letpress archives. No one will realistically pay
                > more than the going rate for anything.
                >
                Gerald, I think there's a bit more to this than just greed and market
                manipulation. There is also a growing demand; and in spite of all the
                resources available (thanks to people like you), a very considerable
                ignorance.
                I think twenty years ago there wasn't any institution here in San
                Francisco that was still teaching letterpress; but in the last ten
                years every letterpress teaching facility has revived to some extent
                (in the form of Book Arts), and others like SFCB have actually
                expanded the potential for instruction in letterpress here. The result
                is that there are many more people learning, and buying, some with
                more money and some with less. And yet there is only one equipment
                dealer left in town, and they'll be leaving town before long. It is
                not surprising that people in places more isolated than SF or LA take
                eBay prices as normal, and over-priced junk as their last best
                opportunity.
                A dealer could ask 500 or a grand back when presses were often
                being scrapped or given away. Thanks to the Internet, all kinds of
                scavengers and vultures can now see prices from 2 to 6 grand being
                paid. So they ask reconditioned prices for as-found machines, and
                sometimes they have buyers. Emptor non caveat?
                I'll put this idea in--typographic printing is more demanding than
                printmaking. The needs of most linoleum and woodblock printmakers
                could be satisfied by rubber-cylinder sign presses and hand-inking.
                But serious typographic printing (and I'd include wood engraving as
                well) needs a durable precision machine with a packed cylinder and
                grippers, and preferably an inking system. Maybe that's thinking
                inside a box, but I don't see anything worthwhile outside it.
                --Eric Holub, SF
              • Judith Behr
                I have heard a lot about the very high cost of building a new press that would satisfy the needs of a contemporary letterpress printer. I wonder if anyone has
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
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                  I have heard a lot about the very high cost of building a new press that would satisfy the needs of a contemporary letterpress printer. I wonder if anyone has actually checked on the cost of having a machine built in China or Vietnam... with computer aided manufacturing, the cost may not be as great as is thought. A customer of mine has woodworking tools built in China and puts his own brand on them... tools like planers and jointers. And he is making money.

                  Judi

                  Gerald Lange <Bieler@...> wrote:
                  D.

                  Well, it obviously can be done. It's a matter of thinking outside of
                  the box. The key words are simplicity, precision. Basically eliminate
                  the bells and whistles, produce a press that is dependable and
                  repairable, that uses state of the art engineering and mechanics. But,
                  as has been stated, this will cost a great deal of money, both for the
                  prototypes and the actual manufacturing. And, as has also been stated,
                  this depends on the probable market, or perhaps marketing.

                  This could easily happen but it certainly is not going to be produced
                  by the naysayers as, given the fact of the "bubble," it already would
                  be in place.

                  Gerald
                  http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "splitflexi" <dempster@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Regarding the recent thread on "vandercook bubble/press poll":
                  >
                  > Lots was said about why it can't be done. How about a discussion of
                  how it could be? "It"
                  > of course being producing a modern cylinder proof press designed to
                  suit the various
                  > needs of contemporary letterpress (i.e. not neccesarily a vandercook
                  reproduction). Any
                  > thoughts?
                  >
                  > Incidentally, here are two more (expensive) presses currently in
                  production that might be
                  > of interest in this discussion:
                  >
                  > http://www.harryrochat.com/reliefproof.htm
                  > http://www.harryrochat.com/offset.htm
                  >
                  >
                  > D.Dempster
                  > Honolulu, Hawaii
                  >






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Harold Kyle
                  Well, I doubt the printers selling their presses on Briar Press are so organized. To my eye the price increase is simply supply and demand. Despite the prices
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
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                    Well, I doubt the printers selling their presses on Briar Press are so
                    organized.

                    To my eye the price increase is simply supply and demand. Despite the prices
                    that dealers charge for Vandercooks, they¹re selling the presses
                    successfully and actually having trouble maintaining an inventory of them‹a
                    sign that they¹re not selling them for enough! At least we¹re not at the
                    point where these presses have so little value that they¹re being scrapped.
                    In my opinion, the high value of Vandercook presses is one of their keys to
                    survival (so owners are less inclined to, say, leave them to rust in the
                    desert, as I read about on this list earlier this year).

                    Harold

                    On 10/30/06 3:01 AM, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:

                    > The relatively recent increase in the pricing of Vandercooks was not
                    > the result of need (I've maintained a Vandercook want list for
                    > years—but no longer)—it was the result of greed and manipulation of
                    > the market (and the folks responsible know who they are).


                    Boxcar Press
                    Fine Printing / Digital Letterpress Supplies
                    Delavan Center / 501 W. Fayette St. / Studio 222 / Syracuse, NY 13204
                    315-473-0930 phone / 315-473-0967 fax / www.boxcarpress.com



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Gerald Lange
                    Eric Yes, I would agree with this. I teach at both Art Center and Otis and the primary press at these and simnilar institutions is the Vandercook. It is useful
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
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                      Eric

                      Yes, I would agree with this. I teach at both Art Center and Otis and
                      the primary press at these and simnilar institutions is the
                      Vandercook. It is useful as an intro press because of its simplicity.
                      One doesn't really have to learn much about "printing" to operate a
                      Vandercook. Unfortunately the vast majority of folks who are attracted
                      to letterpress today are interested in printing cards and invitations
                      (not book related activity). And this type of press is not exactly
                      suited for this type of work. But it is apparent that this is not
                      being conveyed during the instructional process (mainly because it is
                      the only press that the instructors themselves know how to operate),
                      so folks just follow the route.

                      Now that Vandercooks are becoming a serious budgetary consideration,
                      however, it is increasingly hard for educational facilities to acquire
                      them as well. Because of OSHA concerns and liability issues most other
                      type of presses are simply out of the question.

                      Community outreach based instruction, rather than curriculum based
                      instruction, it fast becoming the reality for these educational
                      facilities, because that is where the head counts are.

                      These are fast growing problems.

                      We are well beyond the need for a new press. This is not just a matter
                      of need, these old presses are often no londer functioning beyond
                      their capability for primary instruction. There are lots of
                      possibilities. I don't see following the traditional manufacturing
                      route as viable since there is built-in resistance (caution) there.
                      Perhaps a well-worn jingle will suffice:

                      Come mothers and fathers
                      Throughout the land
                      And don't criticize
                      What you can't understand
                      Your sons and your daughters
                      Are beyond your command
                      Your old road is
                      Rapidly agin'.
                      Please get out of the new one
                      If you can't lend your hand
                      For the times they are a-changin'.

                      Gerald
                      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com





                      > >
                      > Gerald, I think there's a bit more to this than just greed and market
                      > manipulation. There is also a growing demand; and in spite of all the
                      > resources available (thanks to people like you), a very considerable
                      > ignorance.
                      > I think twenty years ago there wasn't any institution here in San
                      > Francisco that was still teaching letterpress; but in the last ten
                      > years every letterpress teaching facility has revived to some extent
                      > (in the form of Book Arts), and others like SFCB have actually
                      > expanded the potential for instruction in letterpress here. The result
                      > is that there are many more people learning, and buying, some with
                      > more money and some with less. And yet there is only one equipment
                      > dealer left in town, and they'll be leaving town before long. It is
                      > not surprising that people in places more isolated than SF or LA take
                      > eBay prices as normal, and over-priced junk as their last best
                      > opportunity.
                      > A dealer could ask 500 or a grand back when presses were often
                      > being scrapped or given away. Thanks to the Internet, all kinds of
                      > scavengers and vultures can now see prices from 2 to 6 grand being
                      > paid. So they ask reconditioned prices for as-found machines, and
                      > sometimes they have buyers. Emptor non caveat?
                      > I'll put this idea in--typographic printing is more demanding than
                      > printmaking. The needs of most linoleum and woodblock printmakers
                      > could be satisfied by rubber-cylinder sign presses and hand-inking.
                      > But serious typographic printing (and I'd include wood engraving as
                      > well) needs a durable precision machine with a packed cylinder and
                      > grippers, and preferably an inking system. Maybe that's thinking
                      > inside a box, but I don't see anything worthwhile outside it.
                      > --Eric Holub, SF
                      >
                    • Gerald Lange
                      To bring to the forum some off line debate. Vandercooks began to be used for book work during the 60s and 70s (there is earlier precedent). Their large bed
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
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                        To bring to the forum some off line debate.

                        Vandercooks began to be used for book work during the 60s and 70s
                        (there is earlier precedent). Their large bed size allowed for this,
                        as well as for the printing of broadsides. During fine press
                        "renascence" of the mid-1970s the Vandercook became fairly well
                        established for use in instructional printing and has remained so.

                        Beyond the current phenomenon of card printing there is of course
                        typographics, the intermingling of type forms as visual display for
                        use in large format posters, printmaking excercises, etc. To a large
                        extent typographics is actually atypographic and has limited
                        progressive appeal (beyond the rather typical work of the large
                        woodtype poster shops). There are, however, "alternative" printmakers
                        using Vandercooks, such as Alvin Buenaventura (Buenaventura Press),
                        who are very adept and quite successful at reworking traditional
                        concerns of image and text in an entirely new and viable context.

                        http://www.buenaventurapress.com/

                        So, yes, while it can be surmised that two entirely different types of
                        new presses are needed I don't see a resolution here for the card
                        printer, except to whisper the magic word—windmill.

                        Gerald
                        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                      • Gerald Lange
                        Judi Yes, this is exactly the route. I have a friend as well who is having machine parts manufactured this way. He can get unit prices for quality items at a
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
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                          Judi

                          Yes, this is exactly the route. I have a friend as well who is having
                          machine parts manufactured this way. He can get unit prices for
                          quality items at a penny a piece that would otherwise be cost
                          prohibitive to produce. He is making money as well.

                          I don't know the web sites but apparently you can put your
                          manufacturing specs up and then just wait for the bids to come in.

                          Gerald
                          http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Judith Behr
                          <escondidoprinting@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I have heard a lot about the very high cost of building a new press
                          that would satisfy the needs of a contemporary letterpress printer. I
                          wonder if anyone has actually checked on the cost of having a machine
                          built in China or Vietnam... with computer aided manufacturing, the
                          cost may not be as great as is thought. A customer of mine has
                          woodworking tools built in China and puts his own brand on them...
                          tools like planers and jointers. And he is making money.
                          >
                          > Judi
                          >
                          >
                        • Daniel Morris
                          Gerald and list, I d be very interested in links to any websites such as these if someone happens to know of some. I wonder if they have any issues with
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
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                            Gerald and list,
                            I'd be very interested in links to any websites such as these if someone happens to know of some. I wonder if they have any issues with standard hardware vs. metric...

                            Daniel Morris
                            The Arm Letterpress
                            Brooklyn, NY



                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Gerald Lange <Bieler@...>
                            To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 11:34:31 AM
                            Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: anything else on new presses?













                            Judi



                            Yes, this is exactly the route. I have a friend as well who is having

                            machine parts manufactured this way. He can get unit prices for

                            quality items at a penny a piece that would otherwise be cost

                            prohibitive to produce. He is making money as well.



                            I don't know the web sites but apparently you can put your

                            manufacturing specs up and then just wait for the bids to come in.



                            Gerald

                            http://BielerPress. blogspot. com



                            --- In PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com, Judith Behr

                            <escondidoprinting@ ...> wrote:

                            >

                            > I have heard a lot about the very high cost of building a new press

                            that would satisfy the needs of a contemporary letterpress printer. I

                            wonder if anyone has actually checked on the cost of having a machine

                            built in China or Vietnam... with computer aided manufacturing, the

                            cost may not be as great as is thought. A customer of mine has

                            woodworking tools built in China and puts his own brand on them...

                            tools like planers and jointers. And he is making money.

                            >

                            > Judi

                            >

                            >














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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Gerald Lange
                            A good example here might be the Matias Tactilepro keyboard. This was designed to replace Apple s old ADB ported Extended Keyboard which used the fairly
                            Message 13 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              A good example here might be the Matias Tactilepro keyboard. This was
                              designed to replace Apple's old ADB ported Extended Keyboard which
                              used the fairly indestructable mechanical ALPS key switches. I've
                              always liked those keyboards and when the switch occured to USB ports
                              the keyboard was sadly discontinued. I was quite disappointed with the
                              usual fair and then one day I did a Google search on ALPS and USB and
                              discovered the USB ported Tactilepro.

                              If I recall the story correctly, with Apple out of the picture, ALPS
                              switches disappeared as well. Matias negotiated with an Asian firm for
                              the manufacture of a huge lot of the switches. And voila.

                              http://matias.ca/tactilepro/

                              I love mine, it's as advertised, a real clacker, just like an old
                              typewriter. An additional bonus is that all the alternative keystrokes
                              you could ever envision are displayed directly on the keys. And it is
                              well integrated with OS X.

                              Gerald
                              http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Judi
                              >
                              > Yes, this is exactly the route. I have a friend as well who is having
                              > machine parts manufactured this way. He can get unit prices for
                              > quality items at a penny a piece that would otherwise be cost
                              > prohibitive to produce. He is making money as well.
                              >
                              > I don't know the web sites but apparently you can put your
                              > manufacturing specs up and then just wait for the bids to come in.
                              >
                              > Gerald
                              > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                              >
                              > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Judith Behr
                              > <escondidoprinting@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I have heard a lot about the very high cost of building a new press
                              > that would satisfy the needs of a contemporary letterpress printer. I
                              > wonder if anyone has actually checked on the cost of having a machine
                              > built in China or Vietnam... with computer aided manufacturing, the
                              > cost may not be as great as is thought. A customer of mine has
                              > woodworking tools built in China and puts his own brand on them...
                              > tools like planers and jointers. And he is making money.
                              > >
                              > > Judi
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Kayle Simon
                              I loved those keyboards. Thanks for the tip. When I visited my old university newsroom some years back, the students there gathered round to ask what it was
                              Message 14 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I loved those keyboards. Thanks for the tip.

                                When I visited my old university newsroom some
                                years back, the students there gathered round to ask what it was like
                                in the old days.
                                I was about 36 at this time and had no idea I'd ever been part of any
                                old days. They
                                mostly wanted to understand how we got our copy over to the layout
                                room. I told them
                                we used the Royals typewriters (the U of Md went from royals to macs,
                                no selectrics
                                in between the two), then edited on actual paper, then took the
                                stories to
                                the composing room, where they set it using tape or imagesetters,
                                and they then pasted up the paper using warm wax and xacto blades.

                                But, they said, how did you get the copy OVER there?

                                I wasn't sure I understood their question.
                                "You mean, across the hall? We just walked over with it."

                                "You WALKED over with it? You mean you CARRIED it?" they asked,
                                incredulous.

                                I don't think I ever felt so old in my life.

                                Kayle Simon
                                www.indigodesign.com



                                On Oct 30, 2006, at 3:14 PM, Gerald Lange wrote:

                                > A good example here might be the Matias Tactilepro keyboard. This was
                                > designed to replace Apple's old ADB ported Extended Keyboard which
                                > used the fairly indestructable mechanical ALPS key switches. I've
                                > always liked those keyboards and when the switch occured to USB ports
                                > the keyboard was sadly discontinued. I was quite disappointed with the
                                > usual fair and then one day I did a Google search on ALPS and USB and
                                > discovered the USB ported Tactilepro.
                                >
                                > If I recall the story correctly, with Apple out of the picture, ALPS
                                > switches disappeared as well. Matias negotiated with an Asian firm for
                                > the manufacture of a huge lot of the switches. And voila.
                                >
                                > http://matias.ca/tactilepro/
                                >
                                > I love mine, it's as advertised, a real clacker, just like an old
                                > typewriter. An additional bonus is that all the alternative keystrokes
                                > you could ever envision are displayed directly on the keys. And it is
                                > well integrated with OS X.
                                >
                                > Gerald
                                > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                                >
                                > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Judi
                                > >
                                > > Yes, this is exactly the route. I have a friend as well who is
                                > having
                                > > machine parts manufactured this way. He can get unit prices for
                                > > quality items at a penny a piece that would otherwise be cost
                                > > prohibitive to produce. He is making money as well.
                                > >
                                > > I don't know the web sites but apparently you can put your
                                > > manufacturing specs up and then just wait for the bids to come in.
                                > >
                                > > Gerald
                                > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                                > >
                                > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Judith Behr
                                > > <escondidoprinting@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > I have heard a lot about the very high cost of building a new
                                > press
                                > > that would satisfy the needs of a contemporary letterpress
                                > printer. I
                                > > wonder if anyone has actually checked on the cost of having a
                                > machine
                                > > built in China or Vietnam... with computer aided manufacturing, the
                                > > cost may not be as great as is thought. A customer of mine has
                                > > woodworking tools built in China and puts his own brand on them...
                                > > tools like planers and jointers. And he is making money.
                                > > >
                                > > > Judi
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Austin
                                I guess I must make my thoughts known on this subject. There have been lots of comments and laments from all different directions. I have some rather simple
                                Message 15 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I guess I must make my thoughts known on this subject. There have been
                                  lots of comments and laments from all different directions. I have some
                                  rather simple thoughts on this issue.

                                  1. The Oil issue in this country has been caused by speculators trying
                                  to force the price to where they want it, not where the costs justify.
                                  The same thing has happened in the market for Vandercook presses.

                                  2. The cries for "a press to meet the needs" sounds like people wanting
                                  a machine to produce a product to allow them to make a fast buck.

                                  3. I recently saw a commercial for an automobile which can parallel park
                                  itself. If you can't park the car, stay out of the drivers seat. A
                                  printing press in the most simple terms is an appliance to apply
                                  pressure to transfer ink from type to paper. A Printer should be able to
                                  do this without needing a machine to make all the calculations for them.
                                  If you can't print without the computer, don't call yourself a Printer.

                                  4. We are developing a group of Printers who feel that the ability to
                                  know where the on/off switch is located is all that is required. Lets
                                  get back to basics. Learn how to ink with a brayer, roll the bed by
                                  hand, and pull prints like the masters.

                                  5. Spending too much time on the computer makes us think that we should
                                  be able to produce this stuff by letterpress just by using a keyboard. I
                                  shudder to think of that day. Relief Printing requires a feel, a touch,
                                  an eye, and a willingness to get your hands dirty. True Artists don't
                                  want the process computerized. They are happy just making it work.

                                  6. Get a brayer and a wooden spoon.


                                  --
                                  Austin Jones
                                  prints by AJ
                                  Point Pleasant, WV USA
                                  austin@...
                                  http://printsbyaj.com
                                • splitflexi
                                  ...the cost of having a machine built in China or Vietnam... This is what I was getting at in my earlier post when I referred to newer manufacturing
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    " ...the cost of having a machine built in China or Vietnam..."

                                    This is what I was getting at in my earlier post when I referred to newer manufacturing
                                    processes and possibilities available now, although I'm a little hesitant to fully endorse
                                    offshore outsourcing. But the fact remains that precision is available at reduced prices
                                    these days, and production in Asia for the topic at hand is pretty much a given. My
                                    Taiwanese table saw has a dead flat cast iron top, precision milled and acceptably parallel
                                    slots, and is generally well made-- it's a $500 copy of (what was once) an american-made
                                    saw. I also have a small (micro) metal lathe, made in America, accurate to .0005", and
                                    partially made-to-order-- cost: $350, the product of cnc machining, modular design, and
                                    some off-the-shelf parts, like aluminum extrusions where appropriate. Different products,
                                    processes, economies of scale, etc, but this suggests to me that precision can be
                                    affordable.

                                    Just out of curiosity, what are the expected or ideal tolerances for a flatbed cylinder proof
                                    press, like a Vandercook? What level of precision do people think they need for the various
                                    types of printing they do?

                                    I'm not an engineer, machinist, industrial designer, etc, but from what I've seen there are
                                    some interesting newer technologies and manufacturing paradigms that seem applicable
                                    to this question. Computer Numerically Controlled machining with mills, lasers, waterjets,
                                    etc can produce precision parts in someones garage, from all manner of metals, and from
                                    3d modeling software. Rapid prototyping machines can produce 3d models usable for
                                    patternmaking, via the internet.

                                    I'm not advocating anyone jump into this business, I'm just interested in the topic and
                                    have enjoyed and learned much from the various knowledgable responses.

                                    Just to raise some hackles, why couldn't a suitable press bed be made out of properly
                                    alloyed, stressed-relieved aluminum, or some other material? this would save weight, thus
                                    transport costs, and I assume relieve machining time and complexity. Educate me. On an
                                    etching press, the bed can actually be of a relatively flexible material, as it flattens out
                                    when it passes though two perfectly true and flat cylinders. Our new Takach press has a
                                    bed of 3.5" maple laminted to .5" aluminum. Some etching presses are made now with
                                    phenolic sheet or aluminum beds. And of course all press beds were once wooden...

                                    Just curious

                                    Duncan Dempster
                                    Honolulu, Hawaii




                                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Judith Behr <escondidoprinting@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I have heard a lot about the very high cost of building a new press that would satisfy the
                                    needs of a contemporary letterpress printer. I wonder if anyone has actually checked on
                                    the cost of having a machine built in China or Vietnam... with computer aided
                                    manufacturing, the cost may not be as great as is thought. A customer of mine has
                                    woodworking tools built in China and puts his own brand on them... tools like planers and
                                    jointers. And he is making money.
                                    >
                                    > Judi
                                    >
                                    > Gerald Lange <Bieler@...> wrote:
                                    > D.
                                    >
                                    > Well, it obviously can be done. It's a matter of thinking outside of
                                    > the box. The key words are simplicity, precision. Basically eliminate
                                    > the bells and whistles, produce a press that is dependable and
                                    > repairable, that uses state of the art engineering and mechanics. But,
                                    > as has been stated, this will cost a great deal of money, both for the
                                    > prototypes and the actual manufacturing. And, as has also been stated,
                                    > this depends on the probable market, or perhaps marketing.
                                    >
                                    > This could easily happen but it certainly is not going to be produced
                                    > by the naysayers as, given the fact of the "bubble," it already would
                                    > be in place.
                                    >
                                    > Gerald
                                    > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                                    >
                                    > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "splitflexi" <dempster@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Regarding the recent thread on "vandercook bubble/press poll":
                                    > >
                                    > > Lots was said about why it can't be done. How about a discussion of
                                    > how it could be? "It"
                                    > > of course being producing a modern cylinder proof press designed to
                                    > suit the various
                                    > > needs of contemporary letterpress (i.e. not neccesarily a vandercook
                                    > reproduction). Any
                                    > > thoughts?
                                    > >
                                    > > Incidentally, here are two more (expensive) presses currently in
                                    > production that might be
                                    > > of interest in this discussion:
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.harryrochat.com/reliefproof.htm
                                    > > http://www.harryrochat.com/offset.htm
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > D.Dempster
                                    > > Honolulu, Hawaii
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • Scott Rubel
                                    What s this I hear about movable type? A true artist would never want anything to do with something so mechanical. Any monk who cannot with pure heart and
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      What's this I hear about movable type? A true artist would never want
                                      anything to do with something so mechanical. Any monk who cannot with
                                      pure heart and steady quill make his letter forms properly and perfectly
                                      should stay out of the scriptorium! --Brother Scott

                                      Austin wrote:

                                      >I guess I must make my thoughts known on this subject. There have been
                                      >lots of comments and laments from all different directions. I have some
                                      >rather simple thoughts on this issue.
                                      >
                                      >1. The Oil issue in this country has been caused by speculators trying
                                      >to force the price to where they want it, not where the costs justify.
                                      >The same thing has happened in the market for Vandercook presses.
                                      >
                                      >2. The cries for "a press to meet the needs" sounds like people wanting
                                      >a machine to produce a product to allow them to make a fast buck.
                                      >
                                      >3. I recently saw a commercial for an automobile which can parallel park
                                      >itself. If you can't park the car, stay out of the drivers seat. A
                                      >printing press in the most simple terms is an appliance to apply
                                      >pressure to transfer ink from type to paper. A Printer should be able to
                                      >do this without needing a machine to make all the calculations for them.
                                      >If you can't print without the computer, don't call yourself a Printer.
                                      >
                                      >4. We are developing a group of Printers who feel that the ability to
                                      >know where the on/off switch is located is all that is required. Lets
                                      >get back to basics. Learn how to ink with a brayer, roll the bed by
                                      >hand, and pull prints like the masters.
                                      >
                                      >5. Spending too much time on the computer makes us think that we should
                                      >be able to produce this stuff by letterpress just by using a keyboard. I
                                      >shudder to think of that day. Relief Printing requires a feel, a touch,
                                      >an eye, and a willingness to get your hands dirty. True Artists don't
                                      >want the process computerized. They are happy just making it work.
                                      >
                                      >6. Get a brayer and a wooden spoon.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Peter Fraterdeus
                                      ... And so it goes around ;-) Thanks for that Scott! http://www.fraterdeus.com/lettering/ (from the scriptorium!) PF AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        At 1:39 PM -0800 30 10 06, Scott Rubel wrote:
                                        >What's this I hear about movable type? A true artist would never want
                                        >anything to do with something so mechanical. Any monk who cannot with
                                        >pure heart and steady quill make his letter forms properly and perfectly
                                        >should stay out of the scriptorium! --Brother Scott
                                        >

                                        And so it goes around ;-)

                                        Thanks for that Scott!

                                        http://www.fraterdeus.com/lettering/ (from the scriptorium!)

                                        PF

                                        AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                                        ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!

                                        Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
                                        Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography
                                      • Gerald Lange
                                        Duncan Based on an old post from Fritz on Letpress (I think), Vandercook allowed for a variance of .002 across the face of the bed (which was not
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Oct 31, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Duncan

                                          Based on an old post from Fritz on Letpress (I think), Vandercook
                                          allowed for a variance of .002" across the face of the bed (which was
                                          not parallelized). I'm sure he will correct me if this is inaccurate.
                                          I don't know offhand what the tolerance would have been on the more
                                          highly engineered FAG.

                                          I'd think that following the current printmaking practice regarding
                                          the manufacturing of a bed would be sound.

                                          Gerald
                                          http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                                          >
                                          > Just out of curiosity, what are the expected or ideal tolerances for
                                          a flatbed cylinder proof
                                          > press, like a Vandercook? What level of precision do people think
                                          they need for the various
                                          > types of printing they do?
                                          >
                                          > I'm not an engineer, machinist, industrial designer, etc, but from
                                          what I've seen there are
                                          > some interesting newer technologies and manufacturing paradigms that
                                          seem applicable
                                          > to this question. Computer Numerically Controlled machining with
                                          mills, lasers, waterjets,
                                          > etc can produce precision parts in someones garage, from all manner
                                          of metals, and from
                                          > 3d modeling software. Rapid prototyping machines can produce 3d
                                          models usable for
                                          > patternmaking, via the internet.
                                          >
                                          > I'm not advocating anyone jump into this business, I'm just
                                          interested in the topic and
                                          > have enjoyed and learned much from the various knowledgable responses.
                                          >
                                          > Just to raise some hackles, why couldn't a suitable press bed be
                                          made out of properly
                                          > alloyed, stressed-relieved aluminum, or some other material? this
                                          would save weight, thus
                                          > transport costs, and I assume relieve machining time and complexity.
                                          Educate me. On an
                                          > etching press, the bed can actually be of a relatively flexible
                                          material, as it flattens out
                                          > when it passes though two perfectly true and flat cylinders. Our new
                                          Takach press has a
                                          > bed of 3.5" maple laminted to .5" aluminum. Some etching presses are
                                          made now with
                                          > phenolic sheet or aluminum beds. And of course all press beds were
                                          once wooden...
                                          >
                                          > Just curious
                                          >
                                          > Duncan Dempster
                                          > Honolulu, Hawaii
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Judith Behr
                                          <escondidoprinting@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > I have heard a lot about the very high cost of building a new
                                          press that would satisfy the
                                          > needs of a contemporary letterpress printer. I wonder if anyone has
                                          actually checked on
                                          > the cost of having a machine built in China or Vietnam... with
                                          computer aided
                                          > manufacturing, the cost may not be as great as is thought. A
                                          customer of mine has
                                          > woodworking tools built in China and puts his own brand on them...
                                          tools like planers and
                                          > jointers. And he is making money.
                                          > >
                                          > > Judi
                                          > >
                                          > > Gerald Lange <Bieler@> wrote:
                                          > > D.
                                          > >
                                          > > Well, it obviously can be done. It's a matter of thinking outside of
                                          > > the box. The key words are simplicity, precision. Basically eliminate
                                          > > the bells and whistles, produce a press that is dependable and
                                          > > repairable, that uses state of the art engineering and mechanics. But,
                                          > > as has been stated, this will cost a great deal of money, both for the
                                          > > prototypes and the actual manufacturing. And, as has also been stated,
                                          > > this depends on the probable market, or perhaps marketing.
                                          > >
                                          > > This could easily happen but it certainly is not going to be produced
                                          > > by the naysayers as, given the fact of the "bubble," it already would
                                          > > be in place.
                                          > >
                                          > > Gerald
                                          > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "splitflexi" <dempster@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Regarding the recent thread on "vandercook bubble/press poll":
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Lots was said about why it can't be done. How about a discussion of
                                          > > how it could be? "It"
                                          > > > of course being producing a modern cylinder proof press designed to
                                          > > suit the various
                                          > > > needs of contemporary letterpress (i.e. not neccesarily a vandercook
                                          > > reproduction). Any
                                          > > > thoughts?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Incidentally, here are two more (expensive) presses currently in
                                          > > production that might be
                                          > > > of interest in this discussion:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > http://www.harryrochat.com/reliefproof.htm
                                          > > > http://www.harryrochat.com/offset.htm
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > D.Dempster
                                          > > > Honolulu, Hawaii
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • Gerald Lange
                                          Austin The cries for a new press are on the part of folks who would have to pay for one. The manufacturer and investors (whoever they might be) would be the
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Oct 31, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Austin

                                            The cries for a new press are on the part of folks who would have to
                                            pay for one. The manufacturer and investors (whoever they might be)
                                            would be the ones either making money or losing money. If there were
                                            to be a press manufactured our words here will be quickly forgotten.

                                            Out of curiousity I took a look at your web site. Nice work on the
                                            Declaration of Independence piece. The pics are quite impressive.
                                            Also, I can't imagine how anyone could pull a decent proof from a
                                            Bobcat, especially with ink balls, but hat's off to you. There aren't
                                            a lot of "printers" around who can hand ink a form.

                                            Gerald
                                            http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                                            >
                                            > 2. The cries for "a press to meet the needs" sounds like people wanting
                                            > a machine to produce a product to allow them to make a fast buck.
                                            >
                                            . . . .

                                            > Lets get back to basics. Learn how to ink with a brayer, roll the
                                            bed by
                                            > hand, and pull prints like the masters.
                                            >

                                            >
                                            > --
                                            > Austin Jones
                                            > prints by AJ
                                            > Point Pleasant, WV USA
                                            > austin@...
                                            > http://printsbyaj.com
                                            >
                                          • Gerald Lange
                                            Daniel http://www.alibaba.com/aboutalibaba/index.html Gerald http://BielerPress.blogspot.com ... someone happens to know of some. I wonder if they have any
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Nov 1, 2006
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Daniel

                                              http://www.alibaba.com/aboutalibaba/index.html

                                              Gerald
                                              http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                                              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Morris
                                              <featherweightpress@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Gerald and list,
                                              > I'd be very interested in links to any websites such as these if
                                              someone happens to know of some. I wonder if they have any issues
                                              with standard hardware vs. metric...
                                              >
                                              > Daniel Morris
                                              > The Arm Letterpress
                                              > Brooklyn, NY
                                              >
                                            • Gerald Lange
                                              Eric We will always be uncool. Mainly because, as a lot, we don t care about anything other than our own thing. That is the problem with contemporary studio
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Nov 1, 2006
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Eric

                                                We will always be uncool. Mainly because, as a lot, we don't care
                                                about anything other than our own thing. That is the problem with
                                                contemporary studio letterpress. I lived through the disappearance of
                                                the type foundries. I can understand the older folks not caring so
                                                much anymore, but what's up with the newer generation? If you won't
                                                invest in letterpress's future, there is no future for letterpress, or
                                                you in letterpress. How long will the concept of "saving letterpress"
                                                continue to be the salvaging of trinkets from the past rather than
                                                thinking about, and doing something about, its continuation into the
                                                future?


                                                Gerald
                                                http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                                                >
                                                > Daniel Morris made a comment that if you can't find a press you
                                                > aren't looking. I think that if you can't find a press you either
                                                > don't have enough money or you haven't spent the requisite time
                                                > learning the craft in the community you practice the craft. If you
                                                > don't have enough money for a used press you don't have it for a new
                                                > press. But in my experience there's plenty of presses already out
                                                > there. In my small town I know of two places with 5+ presses, where
                                                > you can go and set type and print for free; one at a school supported
                                                > press/museum, one a working printer/publisher. Both take unpaid
                                                > apprentices and welcome all. There are two private letterpress
                                                > studios. There are at least three hobby printers. There's a guy with
                                                > three windmills in his garage that only does numbering jobs and
                                                > refused to let me come and see them. There's an art professor who was
                                                > happy to give me my UNI I, has begged me for years to take the 325
                                                > (which i'll get soon), and will probably give me the UNI 3 and a load
                                                > of type-cabinets. There's a house downtown with a colts armory, two
                                                > SP-15's (one motorized, one non-motorized) and a washington-style
                                                > press in the basement - the owner claims the presses go with the
                                                > house after he dies, but he doesn't use them and i'm sure the right
                                                > price would get them out of the basement. I've been offered a 14x C&P
                                                > in an old smokehouse, a 12x C&P in an old printshop, and as many 8x's
                                                > as I could take. I know all this because i've been here for the past
                                                > eight years and i've been printing and talking to other printers the
                                                > whole time. Printers like young people who are dedicated and work
                                                > hard and learn the craft. Printers want to see printing furthered.
                                                > They don't like people who show up knowing next to nothing and say -
                                                > "why can't i find an SP-15?"
                                                >
                                                > if there's six or seven Vandercooks in a town of 300,000, how many
                                                > are there in your town?
                                                >
                                                > A Vandercook has all the features I need. Any new printmaking-style
                                                > press wouldn't allow me to do what I do. The only other press i'd
                                                > want would be a NOS Vandercook (doesn't exist) or a used FAG or
                                                > Heidleberg (couldn't afford either).
                                                >
                                                > An alternative solution would be to professionally rebuild
                                                > Vandercooks, like in the company's last manufacturing days. This
                                                > would return like-new presses to the market at a fraction of the cost.
                                                >
                                                > maybe i just found myself a career (until the bubble bursts and we
                                                > all become uncool again)
                                                >
                                                > -alex (grumpy)
                                                > press eight seventeen
                                                > lexington, kentucky
                                                >
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