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anything else on new presses?

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  • splitflexi
    Regarding the recent thread on vandercook bubble/press poll : Lots was said about why it can t be done. How about a discussion of how it could be? It of
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 29, 2006
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      Regarding the recent thread on "vandercook bubble/press poll":

      Lots was said about why it can't be done. How about a discussion of how it could be? "It"
      of course being producing a modern cylinder proof press designed to suit the various
      needs of contemporary letterpress (i.e. not neccesarily a vandercook reproduction). Any
      thoughts?

      Incidentally, here are two more (expensive) presses currently in production that might be
      of interest in this discussion:

      http://www.harryrochat.com/reliefproof.htm
      http://www.harryrochat.com/offset.htm


      D.Dempster
      Honolulu, Hawaii
    • Mark Wilden
      From: splitflexi ... Interesting. It has foot-operated grippers, but (apparently) no cylinder trip mechanism. An adjustable bed. No
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 29, 2006
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        From: "splitflexi" <dempster@...>

        > http://www.harryrochat.com/reliefproof.htm

        Interesting. It has foot-operated grippers, but (apparently) no cylinder
        trip mechanism. An adjustable bed. No inking mechanism. Looks similar to a
        late-model Vandercook 1.

        ///ark
      • nagraph1
        Expensive is the operative word for what are very basic machines. The currency conversion comes to $11,642.73 for the letterpress machine shown. Add the VAT,
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 29, 2006
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          Expensive is the operative word for what are very basic machines.
          The currency conversion comes to $11,642.73 for the letterpress
          machine shown. Add the VAT, shipping, duty, etc., and it mounts even
          higher. And that's the key point about any new attempt for producing
          a flat bed cylinder press like any of the Vandercooks or Challenges,
          etc. This press doesn't seem to have any "modern" features, yet
          accurately reflects the real word cost of making just about any type
          of machinery.

          How can it be done? Use existing and known materials and plans and
          engineering. Not much has changed since the 50s or 60s in
          letterpress press technology that I'm aware of.

          Fritz



          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "splitflexi" <dempster@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Regarding the recent thread on "vandercook bubble/press poll":
          >
          > Lots was said about why it can't be done. How about a discussion
          of how it could be? "It"
          > of course being producing a modern cylinder proof press designed
          to suit the various
          > needs of contemporary letterpress (i.e. not neccesarily a
          vandercook reproduction). Any
          > thoughts?
          >
          > Incidentally, here are two more (expensive) presses currently in
          production that might be
          > of interest in this discussion:
          >
          > http://www.harryrochat.com/reliefproof.htm
          > http://www.harryrochat.com/offset.htm
          >
          >
          > D.Dempster
          > Honolulu, Hawaii
          >
        • livres@artnet.net
          It would be cheaper to look at the german ebay or ads in websites where you can get a FAG OR KORREX Press, which both have still suppliers for parts. charles
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 29, 2006
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            It would be cheaper to look at the german ebay or ads in websites
            where you can get a FAG OR KORREX Press, which both have still
            suppliers for parts.

            charles
            On Oct 29, 2006, at 1:55 PM, nagraph1 wrote:

            > Expensive is the operative word for what are very basic machines.
            > The currency conversion comes to $11,642.73 for the letterpress
            > machine shown. Add the VAT, shipping, duty, etc., and it mounts even
            > higher. And that's the key point about any new attempt for producing
            > a flat bed cylinder press like any of the Vandercooks or Challenges,
            > etc. This press doesn't seem to have any "modern" features, yet
            > accurately reflects the real word cost of making just about any type
            > of machinery.
            >
            > How can it be done? Use existing and known materials and plans and
            > engineering. Not much has changed since the 50s or 60s in
            > letterpress press technology that I'm aware of.
            >
            > Fritz
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "splitflexi" <dempster@...>
            > wrote:
            >>
            >> Regarding the recent thread on "vandercook bubble/press poll":
            >>
            >> Lots was said about why it can't be done. How about a discussion
            > of how it could be? "It"
            >> of course being producing a modern cylinder proof press designed
            > to suit the various
            >> needs of contemporary letterpress (i.e. not neccesarily a
            > vandercook reproduction). Any
            >> thoughts?
            >>
            >> Incidentally, here are two more (expensive) presses currently in
            > production that might be
            >> of interest in this discussion:
            >>
            >> http://www.harryrochat.com/reliefproof.htm
            >> http://www.harryrochat.com/offset.htm
            >>
            >>
            >> D.Dempster
            >> Honolulu, Hawaii
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >

            Printmaker
            (Letterpress & Intaglio)

            ------------------------------------
            L.A Book Arts, Inc.
            The Custom Bindery
            Krause Intaglio
            310.360.7265
            www.Custombindery.com
            --------------------------------------
          • Gerald Lange
            D. Well, it obviously can be done. It s a matter of thinking outside of the box. The key words are simplicity, precision. Basically eliminate the bells and
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 29, 2006
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              D.

              Well, it obviously can be done. It's a matter of thinking outside of
              the box. The key words are simplicity, precision. Basically eliminate
              the bells and whistles, produce a press that is dependable and
              repairable, that uses state of the art engineering and mechanics. But,
              as has been stated, this will cost a great deal of money, both for the
              prototypes and the actual manufacturing. And, as has also been stated,
              this depends on the probable market, or perhaps marketing.

              This could easily happen but it certainly is not going to be produced
              by the naysayers as, given the fact of the "bubble," it already would
              be in place.

              Gerald
              http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "splitflexi" <dempster@...> wrote:
              >
              > Regarding the recent thread on "vandercook bubble/press poll":
              >
              > Lots was said about why it can't be done. How about a discussion of
              how it could be? "It"
              > of course being producing a modern cylinder proof press designed to
              suit the various
              > needs of contemporary letterpress (i.e. not neccesarily a vandercook
              reproduction). Any
              > thoughts?
              >
              > Incidentally, here are two more (expensive) presses currently in
              production that might be
              > of interest in this discussion:
              >
              > http://www.harryrochat.com/reliefproof.htm
              > http://www.harryrochat.com/offset.htm
              >
              >
              > D.Dempster
              > Honolulu, Hawaii
              >
            • alex brooks
              ... I ve been quiet until now but thought i d speak up with the above quote. To my knowledge, the letterpress bubble is driven and supplied by art schools
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 29, 2006
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                >
                > On Oct 29, 2006, at 4:47 PM, Mark Wilden wrote
                > Interesting. It has foot-operated grippers, but (apparently) no
                > cylinder
                > trip mechanism. An adjustable bed. No inking mechanism. Looks
                > similar to a
                > late-model Vandercook 1.

                I've been quiet until now but thought i'd speak up with the above
                quote. To my knowledge, the letterpress "bubble" is driven and
                supplied by art schools who generally use vandercooks in the above
                way; just as you would a printmaking press. I'm assisting in a class
                this spring, printing wood-engravings on a UNI 3 whose rollers have
                never been used in its current situation. The professor inks each cut
                by hand and then uses the impression power of the press to print. I
                believe this is the mass market for new presses - art schools and
                those that have learned in art schools. That's why wood type is so
                popular and expensive: because it's easy to print wood type in an art-
                school environment.

                Daniel Morris made a comment that if you can't find a press you
                aren't looking. I think that if you can't find a press you either
                don't have enough money or you haven't spent the requisite time
                learning the craft in the community you practice the craft. If you
                don't have enough money for a used press you don't have it for a new
                press. But in my experience there's plenty of presses already out
                there. In my small town I know of two places with 5+ presses, where
                you can go and set type and print for free; one at a school supported
                press/museum, one a working printer/publisher. Both take unpaid
                apprentices and welcome all. There are two private letterpress
                studios. There are at least three hobby printers. There's a guy with
                three windmills in his garage that only does numbering jobs and
                refused to let me come and see them. There's an art professor who was
                happy to give me my UNI I, has begged me for years to take the 325
                (which i'll get soon), and will probably give me the UNI 3 and a load
                of type-cabinets. There's a house downtown with a colts armory, two
                SP-15's (one motorized, one non-motorized) and a washington-style
                press in the basement - the owner claims the presses go with the
                house after he dies, but he doesn't use them and i'm sure the right
                price would get them out of the basement. I've been offered a 14x C&P
                in an old smokehouse, a 12x C&P in an old printshop, and as many 8x's
                as I could take. I know all this because i've been here for the past
                eight years and i've been printing and talking to other printers the
                whole time. Printers like young people who are dedicated and work
                hard and learn the craft. Printers want to see printing furthered.
                They don't like people who show up knowing next to nothing and say -
                "why can't i find an SP-15?"

                if there's six or seven Vandercooks in a town of 300,000, how many
                are there in your town?

                A Vandercook has all the features I need. Any new printmaking-style
                press wouldn't allow me to do what I do. The only other press i'd
                want would be a NOS Vandercook (doesn't exist) or a used FAG or
                Heidleberg (couldn't afford either).

                An alternative solution would be to professionally rebuild
                Vandercooks, like in the company's last manufacturing days. This
                would return like-new presses to the market at a fraction of the cost.

                maybe i just found myself a career (until the bubble bursts and we
                all become uncool again)

                -alex (grumpy)
                press eight seventeen
                lexington, kentucky
              • Gerald Lange
                Hi Charles This isn t entirely true. I have a friend who, a short while back, purchased a factory reconditioned FAG, and certain parts are no longer available.
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 29, 2006
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                  Hi Charles

                  This isn't entirely true. I have a friend who, a short while back,
                  purchased a factory reconditioned FAG, and certain parts are no longer
                  available. Nevertheless, creme de la creme.

                  Gerald
                  http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, livres@... wrote:
                  >
                  > It would be cheaper to look at the german ebay or ads in websites
                  > where you can get a FAG OR KORREX Press, which both have still
                  > suppliers for parts.
                  >
                  > charles
                  >
                • Gerald Lange
                  Alex The relatively recent increase in the pricing of Vandercooks was not the result of need (I ve maintained a Vandercook want list for years—but no
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 29, 2006
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                    Alex

                    The relatively recent increase in the pricing of Vandercooks was not
                    the result of need (I've maintained a Vandercook want list for
                    years—but no longer)—it was the result of greed and manipulation of
                    the market (and the folks responsible know who they are). You can
                    track this in the Letpress archives. No one will realistically pay
                    more than the going rate for anything.

                    The going rate for a used Vandercook in very good condition was about
                    a grand, from a knowledgable seller, for well over twenty-five years.
                    It was not the "need" for more Vandercooks that inspired the price
                    increase.

                    Gerald
                    http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



                    >
                    > I've been quiet until now but thought i'd speak up with the above
                    > quote. To my knowledge, the letterpress "bubble" is driven and
                    > supplied by art schools who generally use vandercooks in the above
                    > way; just as you would a printmaking press.

                    . . . . .


                    >
                    > An alternative solution would be to professionally rebuild
                    > Vandercooks, like in the company's last manufacturing days. This
                    > would return like-new presses to the market at a fraction of the cost.
                    >
                    > maybe i just found myself a career (until the bubble bursts and we
                    > all become uncool again)
                    >
                    > -alex (grumpy)
                    > press eight seventeen
                    > lexington, kentucky
                    >
                  • parallel_imp
                    ... Gerald, I think there s a bit more to this than just greed and market manipulation. There is also a growing demand; and in spite of all the resources
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
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                      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Alex
                      >
                      > The relatively recent increase in the pricing of Vandercooks was not
                      > the result of need (I've maintained a Vandercook want list for
                      > years—but no longer)—it was the result of greed and manipulation of
                      > the market (and the folks responsible know who they are). You can
                      > track this in the Letpress archives. No one will realistically pay
                      > more than the going rate for anything.
                      >
                      Gerald, I think there's a bit more to this than just greed and market
                      manipulation. There is also a growing demand; and in spite of all the
                      resources available (thanks to people like you), a very considerable
                      ignorance.
                      I think twenty years ago there wasn't any institution here in San
                      Francisco that was still teaching letterpress; but in the last ten
                      years every letterpress teaching facility has revived to some extent
                      (in the form of Book Arts), and others like SFCB have actually
                      expanded the potential for instruction in letterpress here. The result
                      is that there are many more people learning, and buying, some with
                      more money and some with less. And yet there is only one equipment
                      dealer left in town, and they'll be leaving town before long. It is
                      not surprising that people in places more isolated than SF or LA take
                      eBay prices as normal, and over-priced junk as their last best
                      opportunity.
                      A dealer could ask 500 or a grand back when presses were often
                      being scrapped or given away. Thanks to the Internet, all kinds of
                      scavengers and vultures can now see prices from 2 to 6 grand being
                      paid. So they ask reconditioned prices for as-found machines, and
                      sometimes they have buyers. Emptor non caveat?
                      I'll put this idea in--typographic printing is more demanding than
                      printmaking. The needs of most linoleum and woodblock printmakers
                      could be satisfied by rubber-cylinder sign presses and hand-inking.
                      But serious typographic printing (and I'd include wood engraving as
                      well) needs a durable precision machine with a packed cylinder and
                      grippers, and preferably an inking system. Maybe that's thinking
                      inside a box, but I don't see anything worthwhile outside it.
                      --Eric Holub, SF
                    • Judith Behr
                      I have heard a lot about the very high cost of building a new press that would satisfy the needs of a contemporary letterpress printer. I wonder if anyone has
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
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                        I have heard a lot about the very high cost of building a new press that would satisfy the needs of a contemporary letterpress printer. I wonder if anyone has actually checked on the cost of having a machine built in China or Vietnam... with computer aided manufacturing, the cost may not be as great as is thought. A customer of mine has woodworking tools built in China and puts his own brand on them... tools like planers and jointers. And he is making money.

                        Judi

                        Gerald Lange <Bieler@...> wrote:
                        D.

                        Well, it obviously can be done. It's a matter of thinking outside of
                        the box. The key words are simplicity, precision. Basically eliminate
                        the bells and whistles, produce a press that is dependable and
                        repairable, that uses state of the art engineering and mechanics. But,
                        as has been stated, this will cost a great deal of money, both for the
                        prototypes and the actual manufacturing. And, as has also been stated,
                        this depends on the probable market, or perhaps marketing.

                        This could easily happen but it certainly is not going to be produced
                        by the naysayers as, given the fact of the "bubble," it already would
                        be in place.

                        Gerald
                        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "splitflexi" <dempster@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Regarding the recent thread on "vandercook bubble/press poll":
                        >
                        > Lots was said about why it can't be done. How about a discussion of
                        how it could be? "It"
                        > of course being producing a modern cylinder proof press designed to
                        suit the various
                        > needs of contemporary letterpress (i.e. not neccesarily a vandercook
                        reproduction). Any
                        > thoughts?
                        >
                        > Incidentally, here are two more (expensive) presses currently in
                        production that might be
                        > of interest in this discussion:
                        >
                        > http://www.harryrochat.com/reliefproof.htm
                        > http://www.harryrochat.com/offset.htm
                        >
                        >
                        > D.Dempster
                        > Honolulu, Hawaii
                        >






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Harold Kyle
                        Well, I doubt the printers selling their presses on Briar Press are so organized. To my eye the price increase is simply supply and demand. Despite the prices
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
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                          Well, I doubt the printers selling their presses on Briar Press are so
                          organized.

                          To my eye the price increase is simply supply and demand. Despite the prices
                          that dealers charge for Vandercooks, they¹re selling the presses
                          successfully and actually having trouble maintaining an inventory of them‹a
                          sign that they¹re not selling them for enough! At least we¹re not at the
                          point where these presses have so little value that they¹re being scrapped.
                          In my opinion, the high value of Vandercook presses is one of their keys to
                          survival (so owners are less inclined to, say, leave them to rust in the
                          desert, as I read about on this list earlier this year).

                          Harold

                          On 10/30/06 3:01 AM, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:

                          > The relatively recent increase in the pricing of Vandercooks was not
                          > the result of need (I've maintained a Vandercook want list for
                          > years—but no longer)—it was the result of greed and manipulation of
                          > the market (and the folks responsible know who they are).


                          Boxcar Press
                          Fine Printing / Digital Letterpress Supplies
                          Delavan Center / 501 W. Fayette St. / Studio 222 / Syracuse, NY 13204
                          315-473-0930 phone / 315-473-0967 fax / www.boxcarpress.com



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Gerald Lange
                          Eric Yes, I would agree with this. I teach at both Art Center and Otis and the primary press at these and simnilar institutions is the Vandercook. It is useful
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
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                            Eric

                            Yes, I would agree with this. I teach at both Art Center and Otis and
                            the primary press at these and simnilar institutions is the
                            Vandercook. It is useful as an intro press because of its simplicity.
                            One doesn't really have to learn much about "printing" to operate a
                            Vandercook. Unfortunately the vast majority of folks who are attracted
                            to letterpress today are interested in printing cards and invitations
                            (not book related activity). And this type of press is not exactly
                            suited for this type of work. But it is apparent that this is not
                            being conveyed during the instructional process (mainly because it is
                            the only press that the instructors themselves know how to operate),
                            so folks just follow the route.

                            Now that Vandercooks are becoming a serious budgetary consideration,
                            however, it is increasingly hard for educational facilities to acquire
                            them as well. Because of OSHA concerns and liability issues most other
                            type of presses are simply out of the question.

                            Community outreach based instruction, rather than curriculum based
                            instruction, it fast becoming the reality for these educational
                            facilities, because that is where the head counts are.

                            These are fast growing problems.

                            We are well beyond the need for a new press. This is not just a matter
                            of need, these old presses are often no londer functioning beyond
                            their capability for primary instruction. There are lots of
                            possibilities. I don't see following the traditional manufacturing
                            route as viable since there is built-in resistance (caution) there.
                            Perhaps a well-worn jingle will suffice:

                            Come mothers and fathers
                            Throughout the land
                            And don't criticize
                            What you can't understand
                            Your sons and your daughters
                            Are beyond your command
                            Your old road is
                            Rapidly agin'.
                            Please get out of the new one
                            If you can't lend your hand
                            For the times they are a-changin'.

                            Gerald
                            http://BielerPress.blogspot.com





                            > >
                            > Gerald, I think there's a bit more to this than just greed and market
                            > manipulation. There is also a growing demand; and in spite of all the
                            > resources available (thanks to people like you), a very considerable
                            > ignorance.
                            > I think twenty years ago there wasn't any institution here in San
                            > Francisco that was still teaching letterpress; but in the last ten
                            > years every letterpress teaching facility has revived to some extent
                            > (in the form of Book Arts), and others like SFCB have actually
                            > expanded the potential for instruction in letterpress here. The result
                            > is that there are many more people learning, and buying, some with
                            > more money and some with less. And yet there is only one equipment
                            > dealer left in town, and they'll be leaving town before long. It is
                            > not surprising that people in places more isolated than SF or LA take
                            > eBay prices as normal, and over-priced junk as their last best
                            > opportunity.
                            > A dealer could ask 500 or a grand back when presses were often
                            > being scrapped or given away. Thanks to the Internet, all kinds of
                            > scavengers and vultures can now see prices from 2 to 6 grand being
                            > paid. So they ask reconditioned prices for as-found machines, and
                            > sometimes they have buyers. Emptor non caveat?
                            > I'll put this idea in--typographic printing is more demanding than
                            > printmaking. The needs of most linoleum and woodblock printmakers
                            > could be satisfied by rubber-cylinder sign presses and hand-inking.
                            > But serious typographic printing (and I'd include wood engraving as
                            > well) needs a durable precision machine with a packed cylinder and
                            > grippers, and preferably an inking system. Maybe that's thinking
                            > inside a box, but I don't see anything worthwhile outside it.
                            > --Eric Holub, SF
                            >
                          • Gerald Lange
                            To bring to the forum some off line debate. Vandercooks began to be used for book work during the 60s and 70s (there is earlier precedent). Their large bed
                            Message 13 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
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                              To bring to the forum some off line debate.

                              Vandercooks began to be used for book work during the 60s and 70s
                              (there is earlier precedent). Their large bed size allowed for this,
                              as well as for the printing of broadsides. During fine press
                              "renascence" of the mid-1970s the Vandercook became fairly well
                              established for use in instructional printing and has remained so.

                              Beyond the current phenomenon of card printing there is of course
                              typographics, the intermingling of type forms as visual display for
                              use in large format posters, printmaking excercises, etc. To a large
                              extent typographics is actually atypographic and has limited
                              progressive appeal (beyond the rather typical work of the large
                              woodtype poster shops). There are, however, "alternative" printmakers
                              using Vandercooks, such as Alvin Buenaventura (Buenaventura Press),
                              who are very adept and quite successful at reworking traditional
                              concerns of image and text in an entirely new and viable context.

                              http://www.buenaventurapress.com/

                              So, yes, while it can be surmised that two entirely different types of
                              new presses are needed I don't see a resolution here for the card
                              printer, except to whisper the magic word—windmill.

                              Gerald
                              http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                            • Gerald Lange
                              Judi Yes, this is exactly the route. I have a friend as well who is having machine parts manufactured this way. He can get unit prices for quality items at a
                              Message 14 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
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                                Judi

                                Yes, this is exactly the route. I have a friend as well who is having
                                machine parts manufactured this way. He can get unit prices for
                                quality items at a penny a piece that would otherwise be cost
                                prohibitive to produce. He is making money as well.

                                I don't know the web sites but apparently you can put your
                                manufacturing specs up and then just wait for the bids to come in.

                                Gerald
                                http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Judith Behr
                                <escondidoprinting@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I have heard a lot about the very high cost of building a new press
                                that would satisfy the needs of a contemporary letterpress printer. I
                                wonder if anyone has actually checked on the cost of having a machine
                                built in China or Vietnam... with computer aided manufacturing, the
                                cost may not be as great as is thought. A customer of mine has
                                woodworking tools built in China and puts his own brand on them...
                                tools like planers and jointers. And he is making money.
                                >
                                > Judi
                                >
                                >
                              • Daniel Morris
                                Gerald and list, I d be very interested in links to any websites such as these if someone happens to know of some. I wonder if they have any issues with
                                Message 15 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
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                                  Gerald and list,
                                  I'd be very interested in links to any websites such as these if someone happens to know of some. I wonder if they have any issues with standard hardware vs. metric...

                                  Daniel Morris
                                  The Arm Letterpress
                                  Brooklyn, NY



                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: Gerald Lange <Bieler@...>
                                  To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 11:34:31 AM
                                  Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: anything else on new presses?













                                  Judi



                                  Yes, this is exactly the route. I have a friend as well who is having

                                  machine parts manufactured this way. He can get unit prices for

                                  quality items at a penny a piece that would otherwise be cost

                                  prohibitive to produce. He is making money as well.



                                  I don't know the web sites but apparently you can put your

                                  manufacturing specs up and then just wait for the bids to come in.



                                  Gerald

                                  http://BielerPress. blogspot. com



                                  --- In PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com, Judith Behr

                                  <escondidoprinting@ ...> wrote:

                                  >

                                  > I have heard a lot about the very high cost of building a new press

                                  that would satisfy the needs of a contemporary letterpress printer. I

                                  wonder if anyone has actually checked on the cost of having a machine

                                  built in China or Vietnam... with computer aided manufacturing, the

                                  cost may not be as great as is thought. A customer of mine has

                                  woodworking tools built in China and puts his own brand on them...

                                  tools like planers and jointers. And he is making money.

                                  >

                                  > Judi

                                  >

                                  >














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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Gerald Lange
                                  A good example here might be the Matias Tactilepro keyboard. This was designed to replace Apple s old ADB ported Extended Keyboard which used the fairly
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    A good example here might be the Matias Tactilepro keyboard. This was
                                    designed to replace Apple's old ADB ported Extended Keyboard which
                                    used the fairly indestructable mechanical ALPS key switches. I've
                                    always liked those keyboards and when the switch occured to USB ports
                                    the keyboard was sadly discontinued. I was quite disappointed with the
                                    usual fair and then one day I did a Google search on ALPS and USB and
                                    discovered the USB ported Tactilepro.

                                    If I recall the story correctly, with Apple out of the picture, ALPS
                                    switches disappeared as well. Matias negotiated with an Asian firm for
                                    the manufacture of a huge lot of the switches. And voila.

                                    http://matias.ca/tactilepro/

                                    I love mine, it's as advertised, a real clacker, just like an old
                                    typewriter. An additional bonus is that all the alternative keystrokes
                                    you could ever envision are displayed directly on the keys. And it is
                                    well integrated with OS X.

                                    Gerald
                                    http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Judi
                                    >
                                    > Yes, this is exactly the route. I have a friend as well who is having
                                    > machine parts manufactured this way. He can get unit prices for
                                    > quality items at a penny a piece that would otherwise be cost
                                    > prohibitive to produce. He is making money as well.
                                    >
                                    > I don't know the web sites but apparently you can put your
                                    > manufacturing specs up and then just wait for the bids to come in.
                                    >
                                    > Gerald
                                    > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                                    >
                                    > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Judith Behr
                                    > <escondidoprinting@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I have heard a lot about the very high cost of building a new press
                                    > that would satisfy the needs of a contemporary letterpress printer. I
                                    > wonder if anyone has actually checked on the cost of having a machine
                                    > built in China or Vietnam... with computer aided manufacturing, the
                                    > cost may not be as great as is thought. A customer of mine has
                                    > woodworking tools built in China and puts his own brand on them...
                                    > tools like planers and jointers. And he is making money.
                                    > >
                                    > > Judi
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Kayle Simon
                                    I loved those keyboards. Thanks for the tip. When I visited my old university newsroom some years back, the students there gathered round to ask what it was
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I loved those keyboards. Thanks for the tip.

                                      When I visited my old university newsroom some
                                      years back, the students there gathered round to ask what it was like
                                      in the old days.
                                      I was about 36 at this time and had no idea I'd ever been part of any
                                      old days. They
                                      mostly wanted to understand how we got our copy over to the layout
                                      room. I told them
                                      we used the Royals typewriters (the U of Md went from royals to macs,
                                      no selectrics
                                      in between the two), then edited on actual paper, then took the
                                      stories to
                                      the composing room, where they set it using tape or imagesetters,
                                      and they then pasted up the paper using warm wax and xacto blades.

                                      But, they said, how did you get the copy OVER there?

                                      I wasn't sure I understood their question.
                                      "You mean, across the hall? We just walked over with it."

                                      "You WALKED over with it? You mean you CARRIED it?" they asked,
                                      incredulous.

                                      I don't think I ever felt so old in my life.

                                      Kayle Simon
                                      www.indigodesign.com



                                      On Oct 30, 2006, at 3:14 PM, Gerald Lange wrote:

                                      > A good example here might be the Matias Tactilepro keyboard. This was
                                      > designed to replace Apple's old ADB ported Extended Keyboard which
                                      > used the fairly indestructable mechanical ALPS key switches. I've
                                      > always liked those keyboards and when the switch occured to USB ports
                                      > the keyboard was sadly discontinued. I was quite disappointed with the
                                      > usual fair and then one day I did a Google search on ALPS and USB and
                                      > discovered the USB ported Tactilepro.
                                      >
                                      > If I recall the story correctly, with Apple out of the picture, ALPS
                                      > switches disappeared as well. Matias negotiated with an Asian firm for
                                      > the manufacture of a huge lot of the switches. And voila.
                                      >
                                      > http://matias.ca/tactilepro/
                                      >
                                      > I love mine, it's as advertised, a real clacker, just like an old
                                      > typewriter. An additional bonus is that all the alternative keystrokes
                                      > you could ever envision are displayed directly on the keys. And it is
                                      > well integrated with OS X.
                                      >
                                      > Gerald
                                      > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                                      >
                                      > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Judi
                                      > >
                                      > > Yes, this is exactly the route. I have a friend as well who is
                                      > having
                                      > > machine parts manufactured this way. He can get unit prices for
                                      > > quality items at a penny a piece that would otherwise be cost
                                      > > prohibitive to produce. He is making money as well.
                                      > >
                                      > > I don't know the web sites but apparently you can put your
                                      > > manufacturing specs up and then just wait for the bids to come in.
                                      > >
                                      > > Gerald
                                      > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Judith Behr
                                      > > <escondidoprinting@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I have heard a lot about the very high cost of building a new
                                      > press
                                      > > that would satisfy the needs of a contemporary letterpress
                                      > printer. I
                                      > > wonder if anyone has actually checked on the cost of having a
                                      > machine
                                      > > built in China or Vietnam... with computer aided manufacturing, the
                                      > > cost may not be as great as is thought. A customer of mine has
                                      > > woodworking tools built in China and puts his own brand on them...
                                      > > tools like planers and jointers. And he is making money.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Judi
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Austin
                                      I guess I must make my thoughts known on this subject. There have been lots of comments and laments from all different directions. I have some rather simple
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        I guess I must make my thoughts known on this subject. There have been
                                        lots of comments and laments from all different directions. I have some
                                        rather simple thoughts on this issue.

                                        1. The Oil issue in this country has been caused by speculators trying
                                        to force the price to where they want it, not where the costs justify.
                                        The same thing has happened in the market for Vandercook presses.

                                        2. The cries for "a press to meet the needs" sounds like people wanting
                                        a machine to produce a product to allow them to make a fast buck.

                                        3. I recently saw a commercial for an automobile which can parallel park
                                        itself. If you can't park the car, stay out of the drivers seat. A
                                        printing press in the most simple terms is an appliance to apply
                                        pressure to transfer ink from type to paper. A Printer should be able to
                                        do this without needing a machine to make all the calculations for them.
                                        If you can't print without the computer, don't call yourself a Printer.

                                        4. We are developing a group of Printers who feel that the ability to
                                        know where the on/off switch is located is all that is required. Lets
                                        get back to basics. Learn how to ink with a brayer, roll the bed by
                                        hand, and pull prints like the masters.

                                        5. Spending too much time on the computer makes us think that we should
                                        be able to produce this stuff by letterpress just by using a keyboard. I
                                        shudder to think of that day. Relief Printing requires a feel, a touch,
                                        an eye, and a willingness to get your hands dirty. True Artists don't
                                        want the process computerized. They are happy just making it work.

                                        6. Get a brayer and a wooden spoon.


                                        --
                                        Austin Jones
                                        prints by AJ
                                        Point Pleasant, WV USA
                                        austin@...
                                        http://printsbyaj.com
                                      • splitflexi
                                        ...the cost of having a machine built in China or Vietnam... This is what I was getting at in my earlier post when I referred to newer manufacturing
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          " ...the cost of having a machine built in China or Vietnam..."

                                          This is what I was getting at in my earlier post when I referred to newer manufacturing
                                          processes and possibilities available now, although I'm a little hesitant to fully endorse
                                          offshore outsourcing. But the fact remains that precision is available at reduced prices
                                          these days, and production in Asia for the topic at hand is pretty much a given. My
                                          Taiwanese table saw has a dead flat cast iron top, precision milled and acceptably parallel
                                          slots, and is generally well made-- it's a $500 copy of (what was once) an american-made
                                          saw. I also have a small (micro) metal lathe, made in America, accurate to .0005", and
                                          partially made-to-order-- cost: $350, the product of cnc machining, modular design, and
                                          some off-the-shelf parts, like aluminum extrusions where appropriate. Different products,
                                          processes, economies of scale, etc, but this suggests to me that precision can be
                                          affordable.

                                          Just out of curiosity, what are the expected or ideal tolerances for a flatbed cylinder proof
                                          press, like a Vandercook? What level of precision do people think they need for the various
                                          types of printing they do?

                                          I'm not an engineer, machinist, industrial designer, etc, but from what I've seen there are
                                          some interesting newer technologies and manufacturing paradigms that seem applicable
                                          to this question. Computer Numerically Controlled machining with mills, lasers, waterjets,
                                          etc can produce precision parts in someones garage, from all manner of metals, and from
                                          3d modeling software. Rapid prototyping machines can produce 3d models usable for
                                          patternmaking, via the internet.

                                          I'm not advocating anyone jump into this business, I'm just interested in the topic and
                                          have enjoyed and learned much from the various knowledgable responses.

                                          Just to raise some hackles, why couldn't a suitable press bed be made out of properly
                                          alloyed, stressed-relieved aluminum, or some other material? this would save weight, thus
                                          transport costs, and I assume relieve machining time and complexity. Educate me. On an
                                          etching press, the bed can actually be of a relatively flexible material, as it flattens out
                                          when it passes though two perfectly true and flat cylinders. Our new Takach press has a
                                          bed of 3.5" maple laminted to .5" aluminum. Some etching presses are made now with
                                          phenolic sheet or aluminum beds. And of course all press beds were once wooden...

                                          Just curious

                                          Duncan Dempster
                                          Honolulu, Hawaii




                                          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Judith Behr <escondidoprinting@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I have heard a lot about the very high cost of building a new press that would satisfy the
                                          needs of a contemporary letterpress printer. I wonder if anyone has actually checked on
                                          the cost of having a machine built in China or Vietnam... with computer aided
                                          manufacturing, the cost may not be as great as is thought. A customer of mine has
                                          woodworking tools built in China and puts his own brand on them... tools like planers and
                                          jointers. And he is making money.
                                          >
                                          > Judi
                                          >
                                          > Gerald Lange <Bieler@...> wrote:
                                          > D.
                                          >
                                          > Well, it obviously can be done. It's a matter of thinking outside of
                                          > the box. The key words are simplicity, precision. Basically eliminate
                                          > the bells and whistles, produce a press that is dependable and
                                          > repairable, that uses state of the art engineering and mechanics. But,
                                          > as has been stated, this will cost a great deal of money, both for the
                                          > prototypes and the actual manufacturing. And, as has also been stated,
                                          > this depends on the probable market, or perhaps marketing.
                                          >
                                          > This could easily happen but it certainly is not going to be produced
                                          > by the naysayers as, given the fact of the "bubble," it already would
                                          > be in place.
                                          >
                                          > Gerald
                                          > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                                          >
                                          > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "splitflexi" <dempster@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Regarding the recent thread on "vandercook bubble/press poll":
                                          > >
                                          > > Lots was said about why it can't be done. How about a discussion of
                                          > how it could be? "It"
                                          > > of course being producing a modern cylinder proof press designed to
                                          > suit the various
                                          > > needs of contemporary letterpress (i.e. not neccesarily a vandercook
                                          > reproduction). Any
                                          > > thoughts?
                                          > >
                                          > > Incidentally, here are two more (expensive) presses currently in
                                          > production that might be
                                          > > of interest in this discussion:
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www.harryrochat.com/reliefproof.htm
                                          > > http://www.harryrochat.com/offset.htm
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > D.Dempster
                                          > > Honolulu, Hawaii
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                        • Scott Rubel
                                          What s this I hear about movable type? A true artist would never want anything to do with something so mechanical. Any monk who cannot with pure heart and
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            What's this I hear about movable type? A true artist would never want
                                            anything to do with something so mechanical. Any monk who cannot with
                                            pure heart and steady quill make his letter forms properly and perfectly
                                            should stay out of the scriptorium! --Brother Scott

                                            Austin wrote:

                                            >I guess I must make my thoughts known on this subject. There have been
                                            >lots of comments and laments from all different directions. I have some
                                            >rather simple thoughts on this issue.
                                            >
                                            >1. The Oil issue in this country has been caused by speculators trying
                                            >to force the price to where they want it, not where the costs justify.
                                            >The same thing has happened in the market for Vandercook presses.
                                            >
                                            >2. The cries for "a press to meet the needs" sounds like people wanting
                                            >a machine to produce a product to allow them to make a fast buck.
                                            >
                                            >3. I recently saw a commercial for an automobile which can parallel park
                                            >itself. If you can't park the car, stay out of the drivers seat. A
                                            >printing press in the most simple terms is an appliance to apply
                                            >pressure to transfer ink from type to paper. A Printer should be able to
                                            >do this without needing a machine to make all the calculations for them.
                                            >If you can't print without the computer, don't call yourself a Printer.
                                            >
                                            >4. We are developing a group of Printers who feel that the ability to
                                            >know where the on/off switch is located is all that is required. Lets
                                            >get back to basics. Learn how to ink with a brayer, roll the bed by
                                            >hand, and pull prints like the masters.
                                            >
                                            >5. Spending too much time on the computer makes us think that we should
                                            >be able to produce this stuff by letterpress just by using a keyboard. I
                                            >shudder to think of that day. Relief Printing requires a feel, a touch,
                                            >an eye, and a willingness to get your hands dirty. True Artists don't
                                            >want the process computerized. They are happy just making it work.
                                            >
                                            >6. Get a brayer and a wooden spoon.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • Peter Fraterdeus
                                            ... And so it goes around ;-) Thanks for that Scott! http://www.fraterdeus.com/lettering/ (from the scriptorium!) PF AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Oct 30, 2006
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              At 1:39 PM -0800 30 10 06, Scott Rubel wrote:
                                              >What's this I hear about movable type? A true artist would never want
                                              >anything to do with something so mechanical. Any monk who cannot with
                                              >pure heart and steady quill make his letter forms properly and perfectly
                                              >should stay out of the scriptorium! --Brother Scott
                                              >

                                              And so it goes around ;-)

                                              Thanks for that Scott!

                                              http://www.fraterdeus.com/lettering/ (from the scriptorium!)

                                              PF

                                              AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                                              ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!

                                              Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
                                              Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography
                                            • Gerald Lange
                                              Duncan Based on an old post from Fritz on Letpress (I think), Vandercook allowed for a variance of .002 across the face of the bed (which was not
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Oct 31, 2006
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Duncan

                                                Based on an old post from Fritz on Letpress (I think), Vandercook
                                                allowed for a variance of .002" across the face of the bed (which was
                                                not parallelized). I'm sure he will correct me if this is inaccurate.
                                                I don't know offhand what the tolerance would have been on the more
                                                highly engineered FAG.

                                                I'd think that following the current printmaking practice regarding
                                                the manufacturing of a bed would be sound.

                                                Gerald
                                                http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                                                >
                                                > Just out of curiosity, what are the expected or ideal tolerances for
                                                a flatbed cylinder proof
                                                > press, like a Vandercook? What level of precision do people think
                                                they need for the various
                                                > types of printing they do?
                                                >
                                                > I'm not an engineer, machinist, industrial designer, etc, but from
                                                what I've seen there are
                                                > some interesting newer technologies and manufacturing paradigms that
                                                seem applicable
                                                > to this question. Computer Numerically Controlled machining with
                                                mills, lasers, waterjets,
                                                > etc can produce precision parts in someones garage, from all manner
                                                of metals, and from
                                                > 3d modeling software. Rapid prototyping machines can produce 3d
                                                models usable for
                                                > patternmaking, via the internet.
                                                >
                                                > I'm not advocating anyone jump into this business, I'm just
                                                interested in the topic and
                                                > have enjoyed and learned much from the various knowledgable responses.
                                                >
                                                > Just to raise some hackles, why couldn't a suitable press bed be
                                                made out of properly
                                                > alloyed, stressed-relieved aluminum, or some other material? this
                                                would save weight, thus
                                                > transport costs, and I assume relieve machining time and complexity.
                                                Educate me. On an
                                                > etching press, the bed can actually be of a relatively flexible
                                                material, as it flattens out
                                                > when it passes though two perfectly true and flat cylinders. Our new
                                                Takach press has a
                                                > bed of 3.5" maple laminted to .5" aluminum. Some etching presses are
                                                made now with
                                                > phenolic sheet or aluminum beds. And of course all press beds were
                                                once wooden...
                                                >
                                                > Just curious
                                                >
                                                > Duncan Dempster
                                                > Honolulu, Hawaii
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Judith Behr
                                                <escondidoprinting@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > I have heard a lot about the very high cost of building a new
                                                press that would satisfy the
                                                > needs of a contemporary letterpress printer. I wonder if anyone has
                                                actually checked on
                                                > the cost of having a machine built in China or Vietnam... with
                                                computer aided
                                                > manufacturing, the cost may not be as great as is thought. A
                                                customer of mine has
                                                > woodworking tools built in China and puts his own brand on them...
                                                tools like planers and
                                                > jointers. And he is making money.
                                                > >
                                                > > Judi
                                                > >
                                                > > Gerald Lange <Bieler@> wrote:
                                                > > D.
                                                > >
                                                > > Well, it obviously can be done. It's a matter of thinking outside of
                                                > > the box. The key words are simplicity, precision. Basically eliminate
                                                > > the bells and whistles, produce a press that is dependable and
                                                > > repairable, that uses state of the art engineering and mechanics. But,
                                                > > as has been stated, this will cost a great deal of money, both for the
                                                > > prototypes and the actual manufacturing. And, as has also been stated,
                                                > > this depends on the probable market, or perhaps marketing.
                                                > >
                                                > > This could easily happen but it certainly is not going to be produced
                                                > > by the naysayers as, given the fact of the "bubble," it already would
                                                > > be in place.
                                                > >
                                                > > Gerald
                                                > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "splitflexi" <dempster@> wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Regarding the recent thread on "vandercook bubble/press poll":
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Lots was said about why it can't be done. How about a discussion of
                                                > > how it could be? "It"
                                                > > > of course being producing a modern cylinder proof press designed to
                                                > > suit the various
                                                > > > needs of contemporary letterpress (i.e. not neccesarily a vandercook
                                                > > reproduction). Any
                                                > > > thoughts?
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Incidentally, here are two more (expensive) presses currently in
                                                > > production that might be
                                                > > > of interest in this discussion:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > http://www.harryrochat.com/reliefproof.htm
                                                > > > http://www.harryrochat.com/offset.htm
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > D.Dempster
                                                > > > Honolulu, Hawaii
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                                              • Gerald Lange
                                                Austin The cries for a new press are on the part of folks who would have to pay for one. The manufacturer and investors (whoever they might be) would be the
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Oct 31, 2006
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                                                  Austin

                                                  The cries for a new press are on the part of folks who would have to
                                                  pay for one. The manufacturer and investors (whoever they might be)
                                                  would be the ones either making money or losing money. If there were
                                                  to be a press manufactured our words here will be quickly forgotten.

                                                  Out of curiousity I took a look at your web site. Nice work on the
                                                  Declaration of Independence piece. The pics are quite impressive.
                                                  Also, I can't imagine how anyone could pull a decent proof from a
                                                  Bobcat, especially with ink balls, but hat's off to you. There aren't
                                                  a lot of "printers" around who can hand ink a form.

                                                  Gerald
                                                  http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                                                  >
                                                  > 2. The cries for "a press to meet the needs" sounds like people wanting
                                                  > a machine to produce a product to allow them to make a fast buck.
                                                  >
                                                  . . . .

                                                  > Lets get back to basics. Learn how to ink with a brayer, roll the
                                                  bed by
                                                  > hand, and pull prints like the masters.
                                                  >

                                                  >
                                                  > --
                                                  > Austin Jones
                                                  > prints by AJ
                                                  > Point Pleasant, WV USA
                                                  > austin@...
                                                  > http://printsbyaj.com
                                                  >
                                                • Gerald Lange
                                                  Daniel http://www.alibaba.com/aboutalibaba/index.html Gerald http://BielerPress.blogspot.com ... someone happens to know of some. I wonder if they have any
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Nov 1, 2006
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                                                    Daniel

                                                    http://www.alibaba.com/aboutalibaba/index.html

                                                    Gerald
                                                    http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                                                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Morris
                                                    <featherweightpress@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Gerald and list,
                                                    > I'd be very interested in links to any websites such as these if
                                                    someone happens to know of some. I wonder if they have any issues
                                                    with standard hardware vs. metric...
                                                    >
                                                    > Daniel Morris
                                                    > The Arm Letterpress
                                                    > Brooklyn, NY
                                                    >
                                                  • Gerald Lange
                                                    Eric We will always be uncool. Mainly because, as a lot, we don t care about anything other than our own thing. That is the problem with contemporary studio
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Nov 1, 2006
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                                                      Eric

                                                      We will always be uncool. Mainly because, as a lot, we don't care
                                                      about anything other than our own thing. That is the problem with
                                                      contemporary studio letterpress. I lived through the disappearance of
                                                      the type foundries. I can understand the older folks not caring so
                                                      much anymore, but what's up with the newer generation? If you won't
                                                      invest in letterpress's future, there is no future for letterpress, or
                                                      you in letterpress. How long will the concept of "saving letterpress"
                                                      continue to be the salvaging of trinkets from the past rather than
                                                      thinking about, and doing something about, its continuation into the
                                                      future?


                                                      Gerald
                                                      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                                                      >
                                                      > Daniel Morris made a comment that if you can't find a press you
                                                      > aren't looking. I think that if you can't find a press you either
                                                      > don't have enough money or you haven't spent the requisite time
                                                      > learning the craft in the community you practice the craft. If you
                                                      > don't have enough money for a used press you don't have it for a new
                                                      > press. But in my experience there's plenty of presses already out
                                                      > there. In my small town I know of two places with 5+ presses, where
                                                      > you can go and set type and print for free; one at a school supported
                                                      > press/museum, one a working printer/publisher. Both take unpaid
                                                      > apprentices and welcome all. There are two private letterpress
                                                      > studios. There are at least three hobby printers. There's a guy with
                                                      > three windmills in his garage that only does numbering jobs and
                                                      > refused to let me come and see them. There's an art professor who was
                                                      > happy to give me my UNI I, has begged me for years to take the 325
                                                      > (which i'll get soon), and will probably give me the UNI 3 and a load
                                                      > of type-cabinets. There's a house downtown with a colts armory, two
                                                      > SP-15's (one motorized, one non-motorized) and a washington-style
                                                      > press in the basement - the owner claims the presses go with the
                                                      > house after he dies, but he doesn't use them and i'm sure the right
                                                      > price would get them out of the basement. I've been offered a 14x C&P
                                                      > in an old smokehouse, a 12x C&P in an old printshop, and as many 8x's
                                                      > as I could take. I know all this because i've been here for the past
                                                      > eight years and i've been printing and talking to other printers the
                                                      > whole time. Printers like young people who are dedicated and work
                                                      > hard and learn the craft. Printers want to see printing furthered.
                                                      > They don't like people who show up knowing next to nothing and say -
                                                      > "why can't i find an SP-15?"
                                                      >
                                                      > if there's six or seven Vandercooks in a town of 300,000, how many
                                                      > are there in your town?
                                                      >
                                                      > A Vandercook has all the features I need. Any new printmaking-style
                                                      > press wouldn't allow me to do what I do. The only other press i'd
                                                      > want would be a NOS Vandercook (doesn't exist) or a used FAG or
                                                      > Heidleberg (couldn't afford either).
                                                      >
                                                      > An alternative solution would be to professionally rebuild
                                                      > Vandercooks, like in the company's last manufacturing days. This
                                                      > would return like-new presses to the market at a fraction of the cost.
                                                      >
                                                      > maybe i just found myself a career (until the bubble bursts and we
                                                      > all become uncool again)
                                                      >
                                                      > -alex (grumpy)
                                                      > press eight seventeen
                                                      > lexington, kentucky
                                                      >
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