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Re: PatMag Bases

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  • Gerald Lange
    Ian I have put up a downloadable PDF for you on the PatMag specifications and contact information in the Files section here. If the link below does not take
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 12, 2006
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      Ian

      I have put up a downloadable PDF for you on the PatMag specifications
      and contact information in the Files section here. If the link below
      does not take you there

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PPLetterpress/files/%20%20Reference%20materials/

      go to the PPLetterpress home page then click on Files>Reference Materials

      Gerald
      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


      >
      > I would like to find out more about the PatMag Base,
      > is there a website or number I could check?
      >
      > Thanks
      > Ian
      >
      >
    • Ian Bristow
      Hi Gerald thanks for the info, I could find nothing else on the net. I am a little sceptical about it after reading the other post about how strong the magnet
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 14, 2006
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        Hi Gerald thanks for the info, I could find nothing else on the net. I am a little sceptical about it after reading the other post about how strong the magnet is on it. I am thinking of maybe going to plastic backed if it will save me time and money. I just can't afford a bunting base, we have been running offset presses without much success and are trying to do both now. But actually enjoying running the windmill instead of cursing it like we do with the offsets. Setting up shop is so expensive and hard when you are still working full time. I am looking forward to a time when the money will start coming in, instead of going out. (sorry about the Rant)

        Ian

        Gerald Lange <bieler@...> wrote: Ian

        I have put up a downloadable PDF for you on the PatMag specifications
        and contact information in the Files section here. If the link below
        does not take you there

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PPLetterpress/files/%20%20Reference%20materials/

        go to the PPLetterpress home page then click on Files>Reference Materials

        Gerald
        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

        >
        > I would like to find out more about the PatMag Base,
        > is there a website or number I could check?
        >
        > Thanks
        > Ian
        >
        >






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      • Gerald Lange
        Ian If you are running a windmill then maybe a PatMag might not be the best as there will be travel without the use of adhesivess. There are a number of fine
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 14, 2006
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          Ian

          If you are running a windmill then maybe a PatMag might not be the
          best as there will be travel without the use of adhesivess. There are
          a number of fine printers who do use the PatMag with excellent
          results. I never really had any problem with them but did switch to
          Buntings and never looked back. I just don't like the trouble of
          adhesives. For me a Bunting is just a raised bed. I don't have to deal
          with IT and the plate crap all the time. Just get em in register and
          party time.

          Gerald





          > Hi Gerald thanks for the info, I could find nothing else on the net.
          I am a little sceptical about it after reading the other post about
          how strong the magnet is on it. I am thinking of maybe going to
          plastic backed if it will save me time and money. I just can't afford
          a bunting base, we have been running offset presses without much
          success and are trying to do both now. But actually enjoying running
          the windmill instead of cursing it like we do with the offsets.
          Setting up shop is so expensive and hard when you are still working
          full time. I am looking forward to a time when the money will start
          coming in, instead of going out. (sorry about the Rant)
          >
          > Ian
          >
          > Gerald Lange <bieler@...> wrote: Ian
          >
          > I have put up a downloadable PDF for you on the PatMag specifications
          > and contact information in the Files section here. If the link below
          > does not take you there
          >
          >
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PPLetterpress/files/%20%20Reference%20materials/
          >
          > go to the PPLetterpress home page then click on Files>Reference
          Materials
          >
          > Gerald
          > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
          >
        • Isabel Chi
          Hello Ian, I fully agree with Gerald. I have a PatMag, and it is as good as a wood block...you might as well duck-tape the plate. The adhesive make the plate
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 15, 2006
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            Hello Ian,
            I fully agree with Gerald. I have a PatMag, and it is as good as a wood block...you might as well duck-tape the plate. The adhesive make the plate stay on the PatMag, but it also takes the surface of the PatMag when you peel the plate!
            Arh... As soon as I bought a bunting, my PatMag sits in the dark and collects dust.
            : )
            A bunting is a good investment.
            I heard that the steel and Magnet prices are going up by 40% next year due to China's crazy madness production, so buying one this year might be a good idea.

            -Isabel


            ---------------------------------
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            Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.

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          • Gerald Lange
            Hi Isabel I hope my pointing out that plates can travel on a PatMag wasn t taken as a condemnation of the base. I also pointed out that many fine printers do
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 15, 2006
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              Hi Isabel

              I hope my pointing out that plates can travel on a PatMag wasn't taken
              as a condemnation of the base. I also pointed out that many fine
              printers do use the base and it serves them well. But the base does
              deserve its due. Pat Reagh developed the PatMag in late 1980s and it
              was the first economical alternative to the Bunting. And that was one
              of the crucial ingrediants for the growth of contemporary studio
              letterpress and the use of photopolymer plates. Had Pat not developed
              his base I doubt we would be sitting here chatting.

              All best

              Gerald

              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Isabel Chi <icychi@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Ian,
              > I fully agree with Gerald. I have a PatMag, and it is as good as a
              wood block...you might as well duck-tape the plate. The adhesive make
              the plate stay on the PatMag, but it also takes the surface of the
              PatMag when you peel the plate!
              > Arh... As soon as I bought a bunting, my PatMag sits in the dark and
              collects dust.
              > : )
              > A bunting is a good investment.
              > I heard that the steel and Magnet prices are going up by 40% next
              year due to China's crazy madness production, so buying one this year
              might be a good idea.
              >
              > -Isabel
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Do you Yahoo!?
              > Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • cutvelvet@earthlink.net
              I use a PatMag on a 10x15 C&P, and *usually* don t have any problem with travel. I had a lot more trouble printing with it on a Vandercook, though. (Although
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 15, 2006
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                I use a PatMag on a 10x15 C&P, and *usually* don't have any problem
                with travel. I had a lot more trouble printing with it on a
                Vandercook, though. (Although that was also a weird printing
                situation ...)

                A couple of tips: you can use strapping tape to anchor the polymer
                plate. With that or any kind of tape, you have to pretty much scan
                each print to make sure the tape hasn't rucked up, which it will as
                (if) the plate migrates. Once that happens the tape will be raised
                enough to get inked, and that area of the print will get inked too.
                (If you're going to trim the page after printing, and the marks are
                outside the trim area, it's not as much of a problem, but it still
                tells you the plate has moved.)

                Also you can draw with a Sharpie around the plate; then if your
                outline is no longer visible, you know the plate has gone travelling.

                Both the residue from tape and the Sharpie lines will come off with
                typewash or whatever you use to clean the plate.

                Lisa Rappoport
                (relatively) happy PatMag user
                Littoral Press
                Oakland, CA
              • Gerald Lange
                Giving due it due, I should also point out that the one thing that the PatMag is not so good at is the deep impression that is favored by today s invitational
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 15, 2006
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                  Giving due it due, I should also point out that the one thing that the
                  PatMag is not so good at is the deep impression that is favored by
                  today's invitational card printers (the PatMag is more a book
                  printer's base). This is because of the rubber magnetic sheet itself
                  which absorbs the impact of impression. The solution to this, though
                  not its original intent, was Harold Kyle's non-magnetic Boxcar Base,
                  which was developed in 2000 (at least that is when I saw the prototype).

                  While Martha Stewart may have made letterpress (and deep impression)
                  proper etiquette for wedding announcements, it was certainly the
                  Boxcar Base that facilitated this, at least in terms of an
                  economically priced base that allowed for not only entry-level
                  participation in letterpress at fairly minimal cost (as did the
                  PatMag) but also opened up that specific and extraordinarily huge market.

                  Gerald
                  http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                  >
                  > Hi Isabel
                  >
                  > I hope my pointing out that plates can travel on a PatMag wasn't taken
                  > as a condemnation of the base. I also pointed out that many fine
                  > printers do use the base and it serves them well. But the base does
                  > deserve its due. Pat Reagh developed the PatMag in late 1980s and it
                  > was the first economical alternative to the Bunting. And that was one
                  > of the crucial ingrediants for the growth of contemporary studio
                  > letterpress and the use of photopolymer plates. Had Pat not developed
                  > his base I doubt we would be sitting here chatting.
                  >
                  > All best
                  >
                  > Gerald
                  >
                • Scott Rubel
                  Gerald is certainly right about that. Even though I have large collections of type to play with, being able to tell people about PatMags really made
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 16, 2006
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                    Gerald is certainly right about that. Even though I have large
                    collections of type to play with, being able to tell people about
                    PatMags really made letterpress accessible to them. Even though
                    everyone who gets a Bunting never looks back (as someone said), Pat
                    Reagh deserves his due. For many years to come PatMags will serve the
                    purpose of opening the door to new letterpress enthusiasts.

                    Also, the access to the technology for making your own custom
                    dimensions is helpful. When a friend of mine got a poster-sized
                    Vandercook a few years ago, I was able to find the source of the
                    adhesive rubber magnet, get a large piece of scrap aluminum Blanchard
                    ground to size, and for less than $200 had a base that covered the
                    entire printable area of the huge press.

                    --Scott

                    On Sep 15, 2006, at 6:20 PM, Gerald Lange wrote:

                    > Hi Isabel
                    >
                    > I hope my pointing out that plates can travel on a PatMag wasn't taken
                    > as a condemnation of the base. I also pointed out that many fine
                    > printers do use the base and it serves them well. But the base does
                    > deserve its due. Pat Reagh developed the PatMag in late 1980s and it
                    > was the first economical alternative to the Bunting. And that was one
                    > of the crucial ingrediants for the growth of contemporary studio
                    > letterpress and the use of photopolymer plates. Had Pat not developed
                    > his base I doubt we would be sitting here chatting.
                    >
                    > All best
                    >
                    > Gerald
                  • Scott Rubel
                    When I was using PatMags, I realized that the creep was in proportion to the surface area of the plate. So, I used to keep lots of developed photopolymer steel
                    Message 9 of 18 , Sep 16, 2006
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                      When I was using PatMags, I realized that the creep was in proportion
                      to the surface area of the plate. So, I used to keep lots of
                      developed photopolymer steel on hand and, if my plate were much
                      smaller than the PatMag, I would build up the area around it with
                      pieces of steel stock.

                      This would often eliminate the need for glue.

                      Another thing I did, when I wanted to be certain (like for two-color
                      hairline registration), was I would bend pieces of the developed
                      stock at 90 degree angles so it could be locked into the chase and
                      still sit flat on the base. Then I could butt my plate up against the
                      lip of the bent piece, which was certain not to move. Usually plate
                      creep is only one direction, so I only had to lock in one 90 degree
                      piece.

                      Of course, all this went to hell if I was doing a very deep
                      impression. Because of the give of the rubber magnet, the edge of the
                      plate would tweak upward just enough to ride over the lip of the
                      locked stock.

                      --Scottt

                      On Sep 15, 2006, at 7:48 PM, cutvelvet@... wrote:

                      > I use a PatMag on a 10x15 C&P, and *usually* don't have any problem
                      > with travel. I had a lot more trouble printing with it on a
                      > Vandercook, though. (Although that was also a weird printing
                      > situation ...)
                      >
                      > A couple of tips: you can use strapping tape to anchor the polymer
                      > plate. With that or any kind of tape, you have to pretty much scan
                      > each print to make sure the tape hasn't rucked up, which it will as
                      > (if) the plate migrates. Once that happens the tape will be raised
                      > enough to get inked, and that area of the print will get inked too.
                      > (If you're going to trim the page after printing, and the marks are
                      > outside the trim area, it's not as much of a problem, but it still
                      > tells you the plate has moved.)
                      >
                      > Also you can draw with a Sharpie around the plate; then if your
                      > outline is no longer visible, you know the plate has gone travelling.
                      >
                      > Both the residue from tape and the Sharpie lines will come off with
                      > typewash or whatever you use to clean the plate.
                      >
                      > Lisa Rappoport
                      > (relatively) happy PatMag user
                      > Littoral Press
                      > Oakland, CA
                    • Gerald Lange
                      Scott There are other tricks as well. Both of the following are standard professional practices that don t require adhesives but do require some knowledgable
                      Message 10 of 18 , Sep 16, 2006
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                        Scott

                        There are other tricks as well. Both of the following are standard
                        professional practices that don't require adhesives but do require
                        some knowledgable registration (template creation) at the prepress stage:

                        A butt bar can be put at the cylinder end of the base and the plate
                        butted up against it.

                        Registration pins can be inserted into the base and the plates hole
                        punched. Plate punchers are a tad expensive though.

                        You can buy custom Buntings with these features built in but I know
                        some folks use them on PatMags. One of my clients uses pin registration.


                        Gerald
                        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Scott Rubel <scott@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > When I was using PatMags, I realized that the creep was in proportion
                        > to the surface area of the plate. So, I used to keep lots of
                        > developed photopolymer steel on hand and, if my plate were much
                        > smaller than the PatMag, I would build up the area around it with
                        > pieces of steel stock.
                        >
                        > This would often eliminate the need for glue.
                        >
                        > Another thing I did, when I wanted to be certain (like for two-color
                        > hairline registration), was I would bend pieces of the developed
                        > stock at 90 degree angles so it could be locked into the chase and
                        > still sit flat on the base. Then I could butt my plate up against the
                        > lip of the bent piece, which was certain not to move. Usually plate
                        > creep is only one direction, so I only had to lock in one 90 degree
                        > piece.
                        >
                        > Of course, all this went to hell if I was doing a very deep
                        > impression. Because of the give of the rubber magnet, the edge of the
                        > plate would tweak upward just enough to ride over the lip of the
                        > locked stock.
                        >
                        > --Scottt
                        >
                      • Ian Bristow
                        Thanks for the advice everyone, this truly is a fantastic forum for Letterpress help. I experimented with my Offset plate punch and it punches through a steel
                        Message 11 of 18 , Sep 17, 2006
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                          Thanks for the advice everyone, this truly is a fantastic forum for Letterpress help. I experimented with my Offset plate punch and it punches through a steel backed Polymer plate very nicely. I use a Duarte punch that punches the negs and Offset aluminum plates. It is probably not recommended for Polymer but seems to work fine. I have a pile of register pins, I guess they could only stick out so far or they would damage the platen. We do want to get a nice deep impression in our paper so I am leaning back toward Boxcar who have been so helpful. They also sell a deep relief base which looks interesting. The thing that worries me is the availability of plates, would I need to use the special plates they have with adhesive backing or could I use any plastic backed plates? I live in Ontario Canada so getting stuff over the border can be expensive sometimes. I was also wondering about the comparison between plastic backed and steel, will one give a deeper impression than the
                          other?

                          Thanks again
                          everyone
                          Ian

                          Gerald Lange <bieler@...> wrote: Scott

                          There are other tricks as well. Both of the following are standard
                          professional practices that don't require adhesives but do require
                          some knowledgable registration (template creation) at the prepress stage:

                          A butt bar can be put at the cylinder end of the base and the plate
                          butted up against it.

                          Registration pins can be inserted into the base and the plates hole
                          punched. Plate punchers are a tad expensive though.

                          You can buy custom Buntings with these features built in but I know
                          some folks use them on PatMags. One of my clients uses pin registration.

                          Gerald
                          http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Scott Rubel <scott@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > When I was using PatMags, I realized that the creep was in proportion
                          > to the surface area of the plate. So, I used to keep lots of
                          > developed photopolymer steel on hand and, if my plate were much
                          > smaller than the PatMag, I would build up the area around it with
                          > pieces of steel stock.
                          >
                          > This would often eliminate the need for glue.
                          >
                          > Another thing I did, when I wanted to be certain (like for two-color
                          > hairline registration), was I would bend pieces of the developed
                          > stock at 90 degree angles so it could be locked into the chase and
                          > still sit flat on the base. Then I could butt my plate up against the
                          > lip of the bent piece, which was certain not to move. Usually plate
                          > creep is only one direction, so I only had to lock in one 90 degree
                          > piece.
                          >
                          > Of course, all this went to hell if I was doing a very deep
                          > impression. Because of the give of the rubber magnet, the edge of the
                          > plate would tweak upward just enough to ride over the lip of the
                          > locked stock.
                          >
                          > --Scottt
                          >






                          ---------------------------------
                          The best gets better. See why everyone is raving about the All-new Yahoo! Mail.

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Gerald Lange
                          Ian If you are looking for film adhesives for plastic-backed photopolymer plates go here http://www.williamson.ca/products/photopolymer/letterpress/ I think
                          Message 12 of 18 , Sep 18, 2006
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                            Ian

                            If you are looking for film adhesives for plastic-backed photopolymer
                            plates go here

                            http://www.williamson.ca/products/photopolymer/letterpress/

                            I think Boxcar (according to the last specs I saw) is using a .004
                            film thickness.

                            Thicker plates don't actually give you a deeper relief, paper isn't
                            all that thick, a thin plate will do the job. The main reason for a
                            thicker plate is really because of variance in roller adjustment or
                            travel. Operators will often experience ink transfer to the floor of
                            the plate if press adjustments are off. With some presses, such as a
                            C&P, this is often problematic.

                            Plastic-backed plates are just slightly less configured than
                            steel-backed plates for increased impression and that is usually
                            revealed in their thickness to relief ratio. If you want guaranteed
                            deep relief without letterform splay, you need to go to digital film
                            negative generated copper photoengravings mounted on a honeycomb or
                            patent base. Photopolymer really can't do extreme impression without
                            noticeable distortion. There is a technical barrier to the thickness
                            that they can be made. They are after all, plastic, in the true sense
                            of the word.

                            Gerald



                            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Ian Bristow
                            <ductormanpaperboy@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Thanks for the advice everyone, this truly is a fantastic forum for
                            Letterpress help. I experimented with my Offset plate punch and it
                            punches through a steel backed Polymer plate very nicely. I use a
                            Duarte punch that punches the negs and Offset aluminum plates. It is
                            probably not recommended for Polymer but seems to work fine. I have a
                            pile of register pins, I guess they could only stick out so far or
                            they would damage the platen. We do want to get a nice deep impression
                            in our paper so I am leaning back toward Boxcar who have been so
                            helpful. They also sell a deep relief base which looks interesting.
                            The thing that worries me is the availability of plates, would I need
                            to use the special plates they have with adhesive backing or could I
                            use any plastic backed plates? I live in Ontario Canada so getting
                            stuff over the border can be expensive sometimes. I was also wondering
                            about the comparison between plastic backed and steel, will one give a
                            deeper impression than the
                            > other?
                            >
                            > Thanks again
                            > everyone
                            > Ian
                            >
                            > Gerald Lange <bieler@...> wrote: Scott
                            >
                            > There are other tricks as well. Both of the following are standard
                            > professional practices that don't require adhesives but do require
                            > some knowledgable registration (template creation) at the prepress
                            stage:
                            >
                            > A butt bar can be put at the cylinder end of the base and the plate
                            > butted up against it.
                            >
                            > Registration pins can be inserted into the base and the plates hole
                            > punched. Plate punchers are a tad expensive though.
                            >
                            > You can buy custom Buntings with these features built in but I know
                            > some folks use them on PatMags. One of my clients uses pin
                            registration.
                            >
                            > Gerald
                            > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                            >
                            > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Scott Rubel <scott@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > When I was using PatMags, I realized that the creep was in
                            proportion
                            > > to the surface area of the plate. So, I used to keep lots of
                            > > developed photopolymer steel on hand and, if my plate were much
                            > > smaller than the PatMag, I would build up the area around it with
                            > > pieces of steel stock.
                            > >
                            > > This would often eliminate the need for glue.
                            > >
                            > > Another thing I did, when I wanted to be certain (like for
                            two-color
                            > > hairline registration), was I would bend pieces of the developed
                            > > stock at 90 degree angles so it could be locked into the chase and
                            > > still sit flat on the base. Then I could butt my plate up against
                            the
                            > > lip of the bent piece, which was certain not to move. Usually plate
                            > > creep is only one direction, so I only had to lock in one 90 degree
                            > > piece.
                            > >
                            > > Of course, all this went to hell if I was doing a very deep
                            > > impression. Because of the give of the rubber magnet, the edge of
                            the
                            > > plate would tweak upward just enough to ride over the lip of the
                            > > locked stock.
                            > >
                            > > --Scottt
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > The best gets better. See why everyone is raving about the All-new
                            Yahoo! Mail.
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • Susan Angebranndt
                            Ampersand is the quarterly journal of the Pacific Center for the Book Arts (PCBA). It has articles about all aspects of the book arts, from historical
                            Message 13 of 18 , Sep 20, 2006
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                              "Ampersand" is the quarterly journal of the Pacific Center for the Book
                              Arts (PCBA). It has articles about all aspects of the book arts, from
                              historical commentary to profiles of working artists to practical how-to
                              tutorials. The informative articles are generously illustrated with
                              photographs. Back issues are available for $15 (includes shipping in
                              US/Canada, California residents add tax). Information about the current and
                              back issues as well as ordering is available at
                              http://www.greenchairpress.com/amp.cgi

                              The Fall 2006 issue is now available for purchase.

                              In this issue:

                              History of the Book / Orihon's Triumph
                              Hedi Kyle looks at the origin and adaptations of the concertina fold

                              Profile / Play, Weaving, Risk, Pattern
                              Sara McManus gives us a glimpse into Kitty Maryatt's class, "Typography and
                              the Book Arts," at Scripps College

                              Broadside / I Speak of the Jazz Poets
                              Lisa Rappoport's broadside of a Jack Crimmin's poem

                              Appreciation / Lloyd Reynolds
                              Gay Walker remembers the calligrapher and teacher Lloyd Reynolds

                              Around the Bay / Out of Our Control
                              Deborah Kogan looks at Margaret Tedesco's flip books

                              Techniques / A Tie Clasp
                              Deborah Kogan & Catherine Helfer detail instructions for making a tie clasp
                              with your own hand-made linen cord

                              Book Reviews
                              Gerald Lange's review of Neil Macmillian's "An A-Z of Type Designers", and
                              Amy Davidson looks at the recent multiplicity of books about altered books

                              Tools / When Good Pens Go South
                              Georgette Freeman's love affair with her Manuscript calligraphic pen

                              Resources / Royalty-free Images

                              Endnote / Letter from Italy
                              Cathy Miranker discovers a book bonanza in Siena, Italy
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