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Re: Vandercook 15-21

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  • Gerald Lange
    Caryl I have never owned an adjustable bed press as I never trusted them but I do know that any problems caused in that regard can be fixed by pulling the
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 10, 2006
      Caryl

      I have never owned an adjustable bed press as I never trusted them but
      I do know that any problems caused in that regard can be fixed by
      pulling the mechanism and cleaning it thoroughly. I've not done this
      myself but I did recommend it to an institutional press that was
      having a bed-related problem and they hired a press mechanic and it
      was solved. If you ask your friend back I am sure you both can get it
      back on track. Can't be that hard to fix, as my wife likes to tell me,
      "if a man engineered it." :–) Just follow the "natural order" of the
      mechanics of the thing. Take it apart, clean it, put it back exactly
      as you found it.

      Gerald
      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


      >
      > Thanks for your replies Gerald, Gene, Alex and Charles (offline),
      >
      > This problem started with the raising of the Adjustable Bed.
      > I had some wood type that was just a smidgen over type high, so I
      > adjusted downward. It was put back at type high and everything was
      > fine. Then at the end of a print run on a long day, I decided to
      > proof a wood engraving that was far too low, and was too tired/lazy
      > to insert a shim, so I raised the bed. This was the very start of
      > the problem.
      >
      > The retired printer I mentioned earlier showed me how to correct
      > for "backlash" and the problem seemed to be solved. There was no
      > more "play" on the adjustment wheel and the bed has been checked
      > and is level.
      >
      > Re: Impression: On the prints with lighter text there is a slight
      > impression - heavier on the good prints - too heavy on the dark
      > prints. You're right, Gerald - there is a difference - the
      > impression is fluctuating - the darker the print, the heavier the
      > impression. And I can "feel" the cylinder move over every line of
      > print on the plate on the prints with a really heavy impression.
      >
      > These things are fixed: the Boxcar base and plates, the packing
      > (which is of the same composition and thickness as always - with the
      > top tympan and mylar changed as always for a new book - and I have
      > checked the rest of the packing), the ink and paper used.
      >
      > Can't think of anything else I can tell you - I'm not mechanically-
      > minded, unfortunately. Thanks for any help you can offer.
      >
      > Caryl
      >
    • Caryl Peters
      Gerald - Things I forgot to mention: The Bed Adjustment is working as per Fritz s instructions, I worked some solvent into the edges of the bed and a day later
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 11, 2006
        Gerald -
        Things I forgot to mention:
        The Bed Adjustment is working as per Fritz's instructions, I worked
        some solvent into the edges of the bed and a day later worked some
        oil in and let it sit for a while. After that, the retired pressman
        took a look at what was easily accessible and said it was fine.
        Fritz mentioned that it would take a hoist to get the top completely
        off the bed if the cleaning process didn't work. The bed moves very
        smoothly and visibly up and down and is level.

        One other thing has to do with the Counter - on the light and the
        acceptable prints it counts in 2s - on the really dark, heavy
        impression it goes by 1s, as it should.

        Just another piece of the puzzle.
        I'm sorry to take so much message board time on this.

        Caryl





        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <bieler@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Caryl
        >
        > I have never owned an adjustable bed press as I never trusted them
        but
        > I do know that any problems caused in that regard can be fixed by
        > pulling the mechanism and cleaning it thoroughly. I've not done
        this
        > myself but I did recommend it to an institutional press that was
        > having a bed-related problem and they hired a press mechanic and it
        > was solved. If you ask your friend back I am sure you both can get
        it
        > back on track. Can't be that hard to fix, as my wife likes to tell
        me,
        > "if a man engineered it." :–) Just follow the "natural order" of
        the
        > mechanics of the thing. Take it apart, clean it, put it back
        exactly
        > as you found it.
        >
        > Gerald
        > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
        >
        >
        > >
        > > Thanks for your replies Gerald, Gene, Alex and Charles (offline),
        > >
        > > This problem started with the raising of the Adjustable Bed.
        > > I had some wood type that was just a smidgen over type high, so
        I
        > > adjusted downward. It was put back at type high and everything
        was
        > > fine. Then at the end of a print run on a long day, I decided to
        > > proof a wood engraving that was far too low, and was too
        tired/lazy
        > > to insert a shim, so I raised the bed. This was the very start
        of
        > > the problem.
        > >
        > > The retired printer I mentioned earlier showed me how to correct
        > > for "backlash" and the problem seemed to be solved. There was
        no
        > > more "play" on the adjustment wheel and the bed has been checked
        > > and is level.
        > >
        > > Re: Impression: On the prints with lighter text there is a
        slight
        > > impression - heavier on the good prints - too heavy on the dark
        > > prints. You're right, Gerald - there is a difference - the
        > > impression is fluctuating - the darker the print, the heavier
        the
        > > impression. And I can "feel" the cylinder move over every line
        of
        > > print on the plate on the prints with a really heavy impression.
        > >
        > > These things are fixed: the Boxcar base and plates, the packing
        > > (which is of the same composition and thickness as always - with
        the
        > > top tympan and mylar changed as always for a new book - and I
        have
        > > checked the rest of the packing), the ink and paper used.
        > >
        > > Can't think of anything else I can tell you - I'm not
        mechanically-
        > > minded, unfortunately. Thanks for any help you can offer.
        > >
        > > Caryl
        > >
        >
      • parallel_imp
        Caryl, unless you have a nest of gremlins in the press, I can t imagine any reason why the adjustable bed would be shifting around between impressions. And
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 11, 2006
          Caryl, unless you have a nest of gremlins in the press, I can't
          imagine any reason why the adjustable bed would be shifting around
          between impressions. And while I'm not familiar with the design of the
          15-21, there are two basic mechanisms for raising and lowering the
          cylinder on Vandercooks, all controlling an eccentric cylinder
          bearing. SPs use a pin-and-tumbler, and when a spring breaks, one side
          will stick on or off impression. The other mechanism is a
          rack-and-pinion gear, as used on Universals, 3 & 4, 219, etc. that
          I've used. I am guessing that is your situation, but I may be wrong.

          Take a look at the non-operator side, or far side, of the press. Is
          there a long horizontal bar with angled flippers at either end? If so
          those flippers are there to divert the rack-and-pinion built into the
          cylinder carriage, which moves the cylinder up and down. Your
          print/trip handle will control the flipper nearest the feedboard.
          Sticking out of the bottom of the far side cylinder carriage you
          should see the bottom of the gear rack, with a roller-bearing. That
          roller is what hits the flippers and causes the movement of the gears.
          Is that roller still round, or is there a flat spot on it? If there's
          a flat spot it would explain why the cylinder is resting at different
          levels when on impression. Sometimes it hits the flat and the cylinder
          is not raised fully (heavy prints), other times it hits the high spot
          and the cylinder goes all the way up (light prints). At least that's
          how I imagine it sitting here staring at a computer screen.
          If so you'll need to replace that bearing. And if worn it was
          because of lack of lubrication over a long period (or of using grease
          where oil is needed). Turn that roller and you will find an oil-hole,
          likely filled with crud. Such roller bearings need to be oiled so they
          turn, not greased so they slide. If greased, or not lubricated at all,
          they will wear a flat spot (and they are on C&Ps as well so this isn't
          just a Vandercook issue). I don't think there's anyplace a Vandercook
          should be greased; manuals indicate running clean, or oiled (plus
          distributor worm is vaselined). Not a word about grease, yet people
          will use it out of habit.

          Also I'd check whether that bar-and-flipper assembly is firmly bolted
          to the press. Nothing else occurs to me, but others may have further
          thoughts.

          Eric Holub, SF

          ps where there's an adjustable length of print, there may also be an
          adjustment for when the grippers release. Univs, 219 NS and No. 4 have
          a wedge-cam that can be placed in two different positions, between the
          far-side rails, on bed end. If missing, there will be three holes.
        • alex brooks
          ... I agree with Eric- this is likely the source. If you can, watch this area while someone else cycles the press, you ll be able to see if the actions
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 11, 2006
            > Take a look at the non-operator side, or far side, of the press. Is
            > there a long horizontal bar with angled flippers at either end? If so
            > those flippers are there to divert the rack-and-pinion built into the
            > cylinder carriage, which moves the cylinder up and down. Your
            > print/trip handle will control the flipper nearest the feedboard.
            > Sticking out of the bottom of the far side cylinder carriage you
            > should see the bottom of the gear rack, with a roller-bearing. That
            > roller is what hits the flippers and causes the movement of the gears.

            I agree with Eric- this is likely the source. If you can, watch this
            area while someone else cycles the press, you'll be able to see if the
            actions fluctuate.

            remember: If it moves: oil it. If it doesn't move: oil it until it does
          • Caryl Peters
            Hi Eric and Alex et al I m sorry to be taking time and space on the board but I m not sure who else to turn to. Far side of press: Cylinder carriage - there is
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 13, 2006
              Hi Eric and Alex et al

              I'm sorry to be taking time and space on the board but I'm not sure
              who else to turn to.

              Far side of press: Cylinder carriage - there is a round 'wheel'
              connected to a shaft coming from the center of the cylinder
              (according to schematics) - this travels off the end of a short
              flipper and then seems to have no function until the carriage is
              returned. Doesn't seem flat.

              Far side of press: side of bed of press - there is a roller called
              a 'cam follower' on the 'cynlinder trip rack' - doesn't seem flat.

              Spring-loaded bar with 3 holes and flippers at either end along
              which the 'cam follower' travels. Only the end near the spring is
              fastened with a screw - a loose screw fell out of one of the holes
              and cannot be replaced (it doesn't seem to fit and wobbles when I
              try to put it back in the hole). The bar seems to hold in place
              despite the lack of screws. I can't see it moving when the cylinder
              carriage passes over it. The flippers have dark grease/oil on them,
              although I have never oiled them.

              Short trip bar - snap-in - have moved this to short trip position.

              Counter - still counting by 2s.

              I think Fritz told me that the 15-21 was meant to be an improved 4.

              Caryl


              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "parallel_imp" <Megalonyx@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Caryl, unless you have a nest of gremlins in the press, I can't
              > imagine any reason why the adjustable bed would be shifting around
              > between impressions. And while I'm not familiar with the design of
              the
              > 15-21, there are two basic mechanisms for raising and lowering the
              > cylinder on Vandercooks, all controlling an eccentric cylinder
              > bearing. SPs use a pin-and-tumbler, and when a spring breaks, one
              side
              > will stick on or off impression. The other mechanism is a
              > rack-and-pinion gear, as used on Universals, 3 & 4, 219, etc. that
              > I've used. I am guessing that is your situation, but I may be
              wrong.
              >
              > Take a look at the non-operator side, or far side, of the press. Is
              > there a long horizontal bar with angled flippers at either end? If
              so
              > those flippers are there to divert the rack-and-pinion built into
              the
              > cylinder carriage, which moves the cylinder up and down. Your
              > print/trip handle will control the flipper nearest the feedboard.
              > Sticking out of the bottom of the far side cylinder carriage you
              > should see the bottom of the gear rack, with a roller-bearing. That
              > roller is what hits the flippers and causes the movement of the
              gears.
              > Is that roller still round, or is there a flat spot on it? If
              there's
              > a flat spot it would explain why the cylinder is resting at
              different
              > levels when on impression. Sometimes it hits the flat and the
              cylinder
              > is not raised fully (heavy prints), other times it hits the high
              spot
              > and the cylinder goes all the way up (light prints). At least
              that's
              > how I imagine it sitting here staring at a computer screen.
              > If so you'll need to replace that bearing. And if worn it was
              > because of lack of lubrication over a long period (or of using
              grease
              > where oil is needed). Turn that roller and you will find an oil-
              hole,
              > likely filled with crud. Such roller bearings need to be oiled so
              they
              > turn, not greased so they slide. If greased, or not lubricated at
              all,
              > they will wear a flat spot (and they are on C&Ps as well so this
              isn't
              > just a Vandercook issue). I don't think there's anyplace a
              Vandercook
              > should be greased; manuals indicate running clean, or oiled (plus
              > distributor worm is vaselined). Not a word about grease, yet people
              > will use it out of habit.
              >
              > Also I'd check whether that bar-and-flipper assembly is firmly
              bolted
              > to the press. Nothing else occurs to me, but others may have
              further
              > thoughts.
              >
              > Eric Holub, SF
              >
              > ps where there's an adjustable length of print, there may also be
              an
              > adjustment for when the grippers release. Univs, 219 NS and No. 4
              have
              > a wedge-cam that can be placed in two different positions, between
              the
              > far-side rails, on bed end. If missing, there will be three holes.
              >
            • parallel_imp
              ... That would be for opening the grippers, and it would also hit that movable wedge to open the grippers at the end of the bed. ... If like most Vandercooks,
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 13, 2006
                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Caryl Peters" <carylpeters@...>
                wrote:
                >

                > Far side of press: Cylinder carriage - there is a round 'wheel'
                > connected to a shaft coming from the center of the cylinder
                > (according to schematics) - this travels off the end of a short
                > flipper and then seems to have no function until the carriage is
                > returned. Doesn't seem flat.

                That would be for opening the grippers, and it would also hit that
                movable wedge to open the grippers at the end of the bed.
                >
                > Far side of press: side of bed of press - there is a roller called
                > a 'cam follower' on the 'cynlinder trip rack' - doesn't seem flat.
                >
                > Spring-loaded bar with 3 holes and flippers at either end along
                > which the 'cam follower' travels. Only the end near the spring is
                > fastened with a screw - a loose screw fell out of one of the holes
                > and cannot be replaced (it doesn't seem to fit and wobbles when I
                > try to put it back in the hole). The bar seems to hold in place
                > despite the lack of screws. I can't see it moving when the cylinder
                > carriage passes over it. The flippers have dark grease/oil on them,
                > although I have never oiled them.


                If like most Vandercooks, it is the movement of that cam follower as
                it is deflected by the flippers that raises and lowers the cylinder on
                and off impression, by rotating an eccentric bearing on which the
                cylinder assembly is resting. The follower should be raised all the
                way up and all the way down by the flippers. But since that bar is
                loose, conceivably the follower could make erratic movements onto
                impression: sometimes less, sometimes more. Bear in mind that cylinder
                and bed bearers come into contact but really can't go any farther, so
                they can't occasionally go into extra impression. For you to sometimes
                have too much impression, I'd think it is over-packed but only
                sometimes coming fully onto impression. Is it packed over bearers?
                Just a little? A lot?
                If you can remove the covers, watch the mechanisms move and make
                sure they are moving consistantly. Different amounts of rotation on
                that eccentric bearing might explain your problem. I'd also check the
                whole mechanism for any worn pins or holes, which could also cause a
                sloppy movement. (Cam follower's connected to the gear-rack, the gear
                rack contacts a radial gear, which is pinned into a shaft which also
                has the eccentric bearings pinned into it. All those pins and holes
                undamaged?)
                Also, I would definitely replace the missing screw. Maybe the one
                you have is undersize, or maybe the hole stripped out and needs to be
                tapped for a larger screw. But without it the remaining screws may be
                heading toward failure too.

                >
                > Short trip bar - snap-in - have moved this to short trip position.
                >
                > Counter - still counting by 2s.

                Does it advance correctly when triggered by hand?
                It may be a damaged counter, just coincidently.

                Eric Holub, SF
              • Fritz Klinke
                Eric may have hit on a problem not previously discussed--an over packed cylinder. Certainly that should be checked--on most Vandercooks, the cylinder undercut
                Message 7 of 8 , Jul 14, 2006
                  Eric may have hit on a problem not previously discussed--an over packed cylinder. Certainly that should be checked--on most Vandercooks, the cylinder undercut is .040, so packing plus top sheet or tympan should be pretty close to .040, usually a little under to compensate for thickness of sheet being printed. And the description of oil and grease--all that should be cleaned off, with oil only in oil holes and at points where 2 parts work, but not on bed rails, the flippers, outside of bearings, etc.

                  Fritz

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: parallel_imp
                  To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 8:52 PM
                  Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Vandercook 15-21


                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Caryl Peters" <carylpeters@...>
                  wrote:
                  >

                  > Far side of press: Cylinder carriage - there is a round 'wheel'
                  > connected to a shaft coming from the center of the cylinder
                  > (according to schematics) - this travels off the end of a short
                  > flipper and then seems to have no function until the carriage is
                  > returned. Doesn't seem flat.

                  That would be for opening the grippers, and it would also hit that
                  movable wedge to open the grippers at the end of the bed.
                  >
                  > Far side of press: side of bed of press - there is a roller called
                  > a 'cam follower' on the 'cynlinder trip rack' - doesn't seem flat.
                  >
                  > Spring-loaded bar with 3 holes and flippers at either end along
                  > which the 'cam follower' travels. Only the end near the spring is
                  > fastened with a screw - a loose screw fell out of one of the holes
                  > and cannot be replaced (it doesn't seem to fit and wobbles when I
                  > try to put it back in the hole). The bar seems to hold in place
                  > despite the lack of screws. I can't see it moving when the cylinder
                  > carriage passes over it. The flippers have dark grease/oil on them,
                  > although I have never oiled them.

                  If like most Vandercooks, it is the movement of that cam follower as
                  it is deflected by the flippers that raises and lowers the cylinder on
                  and off impression, by rotating an eccentric bearing on which the
                  cylinder assembly is resting. The follower should be raised all the
                  way up and all the way down by the flippers. But since that bar is
                  loose, conceivably the follower could make erratic movements onto
                  impression: sometimes less, sometimes more. Bear in mind that cylinder
                  and bed bearers come into contact but really can't go any farther, so
                  they can't occasionally go into extra impression. For you to sometimes
                  have too much impression, I'd think it is over-packed but only
                  sometimes coming fully onto impression. Is it packed over bearers?
                  Just a little? A lot?
                  If you can remove the covers, watch the mechanisms move and make
                  sure they are moving consistantly. Different amounts of rotation on
                  that eccentric bearing might explain your problem. I'd also check the
                  whole mechanism for any worn pins or holes, which could also cause a
                  sloppy movement. (Cam follower's connected to the gear-rack, the gear
                  rack contacts a radial gear, which is pinned into a shaft which also
                  has the eccentric bearings pinned into it. All those pins and holes
                  undamaged?)
                  Also, I would definitely replace the missing screw. Maybe the one
                  you have is undersize, or maybe the hole stripped out and needs to be
                  tapped for a larger screw. But without it the remaining screws may be
                  heading toward failure too.

                  >
                  > Short trip bar - snap-in - have moved this to short trip position.
                  >
                  > Counter - still counting by 2s.

                  Does it advance correctly when triggered by hand?
                  It may be a damaged counter, just coincidently.

                  Eric Holub, SF





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