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snots & fonts

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  • Gerald Lange
    Luc Devorye s controversial but long-lived, useful, and extraordinarily comprehensive typographic site has apparently been censored and wiped from McGill
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 27, 2006
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      Luc Devorye's controversial but long-lived, useful, and
      extraordinarily comprehensive typographic site has apparently been
      censored and wiped from McGill University's database but is now, thankfully, up at

      http://cg.scs.carleton.ca/~luc/

      Freedom of speech and the expression of ideas lives? stay tuned.

      Gerald Lange
      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
    • David Michael McNamara
      Can you elaborate/explain why it s controversial? __ David ... From: Gerald Lange To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 12:58 AM
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 27, 2006
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        Can you elaborate/explain why it's controversial?
        __

        David
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Gerald Lange
        To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 12:58 AM
        Subject: [PPLetterpress] snots & fonts


        Luc Devorye's controversial but long-lived, useful, and
        extraordinarily comprehensive typographic site has apparently been
        censored and wiped from McGill University's database but is now, thankfully, up at

        http://cg.scs.carleton.ca/~luc/

        Freedom of speech and the expression of ideas lives? stay tuned.

        Gerald Lange
        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com








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      • Gerald Lange
        David Luc was (is) all encompassing. He had developed this incredible search engine quite early on. If there was an online source about type and fonts, it went
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 27, 2006
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          David

          Luc was (is) all encompassing. He had developed this incredible search
          engine quite early on. If there was an online source about type and
          fonts, it went into his site on a very altruistic basis, as well as
          did links to sites where fonts could be pirated or copied. He did not
          discriminate. But his essays and opinions did tend to disturb the
          status quo.

          To me, the matter of providing avenue for theft is of less concern.
          That is an ethical choice. If you (not you, of course) are inclined to
          steal another's work, well, that is a problem, but it is ultimately
          your problem. Luc provided information about online sources for type
          and typography that could be found nowhere else. If we let these folks
          go, who do you think they will come after next?

          Gerald

          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "David Michael McNamara"
          <david@...> wrote:
          >
          > Can you elaborate/explain why it's controversial?
          > __
          >
          > David
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Gerald Lange
          > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 12:58 AM
          > Subject: [PPLetterpress] snots & fonts
          >
          >
          > Luc Devorye's controversial but long-lived, useful, and
          > extraordinarily comprehensive typographic site has apparently been
          > censored and wiped from McGill University's database but is now,
          thankfully, up at
          >
          > http://cg.scs.carleton.ca/~luc/
          >
          > Freedom of speech and the expression of ideas lives? stay tuned.
          >
          > Gerald Lange
          > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > SPONSORED LINKS Book cover design Design book Graphic design book
          > Contemporary book Book printing
          >
          >
          >
          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          >
          > a.. Visit your group "PPLetterpress" on the web.
          >
          > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > PPLetterpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          Service.
          >
          >
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          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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        • David Michael McNamara
          I agree. Very curious. It seems akin to writing an article on something, say for argument pornography, and being punished for footnoting something, well,
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 28, 2006
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            I agree. Very curious. It seems akin to writing an article on something, say for argument pornography, and being punished for footnoting something, well, pornographic.

            Except we're talking about typography here. Re/sources are re/sources. Censoring someone for collection information is more than a little absurd. But, come to think of it, well...no comment.

            A bit on the surreal side, I'm fairly certain I walked by Luc's house the last time I was in Montreal. Which in itself is an argument for open sources--how would I ever have known if not for the sharing/footnoting of information? And how would it have [positively] impacted me if I had know this information sooner? (And [negatively] if never at all?)
            __

            David
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Gerald Lange
            To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 1:52 AM
            Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: snots & fonts


            David

            Luc was (is) all encompassing. He had developed this incredible search
            engine quite early on. If there was an online source about type and
            fonts, it went into his site on a very altruistic basis, as well as
            did links to sites where fonts could be pirated or copied. He did not
            discriminate. But his essays and opinions did tend to disturb the
            status quo.

            To me, the matter of providing avenue for theft is of less concern.
            That is an ethical choice. If you (not you, of course) are inclined to
            steal another's work, well, that is a problem, but it is ultimately
            your problem. Luc provided information about online sources for type
            and typography that could be found nowhere else. If we let these folks
            go, who do you think they will come after next?

            Gerald

            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "David Michael McNamara"
            <david@...> wrote:
            >
            > Can you elaborate/explain why it's controversial?
            > __
            >
            > David
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Gerald Lange
            > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 12:58 AM
            > Subject: [PPLetterpress] snots & fonts
            >
            >
            > Luc Devorye's controversial but long-lived, useful, and
            > extraordinarily comprehensive typographic site has apparently been
            > censored and wiped from McGill University's database but is now,
            thankfully, up at
            >
            > http://cg.scs.carleton.ca/~luc/
            >
            > Freedom of speech and the expression of ideas lives? stay tuned.
            >
            > Gerald Lange
            > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > SPONSORED LINKS Book cover design Design book Graphic design book
            > Contemporary book Book printing
            >
            >
            >
            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            >
            > a.. Visit your group "PPLetterpress" on the web.
            >
            > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > PPLetterpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
            >
            >
            >
            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >









            SPONSORED LINKS Book cover design Design book Graphic design book
            Contemporary book Book printing


            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

            a.. Visit your group "PPLetterpress" on the web.

            b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            PPLetterpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Glenn Goluska
            Seems it had nothing to do with type. While half-awake this morning, I heard a brief report on CBC that his site had been shut down because he had posted nude
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 28, 2006
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              Seems it had nothing to do with type. While half-awake this morning, I heard
              a brief report on CBC that his site had been shut down because he had posted
              nude photos of MGill students that had appreared in Playboy.
              --
              Glenn Goluska, typo.graphiste
              82A, square Sir-Georges-Étienne-Cartier
              Montréal, Québec, Canada H4C 2Z9
              T 514.931.1144
              E g.goluska@...

              > From: "Gerald Lange" <bieler@...>
              > Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 04:58:31 -0000
              > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [PPLetterpress] snots & fonts
              >
              > Luc Devorye's controversial but long-lived, useful, and
              > extraordinarily comprehensive typographic site has apparently been
              > censored and wiped from McGill University's database but is now, thankfully,
              > up at
              >
              > http://cg.scs.carleton.ca/~luc/
              >
              > Freedom of speech and the expression of ideas lives? stay tuned.
              >
              > Gerald Lange
              > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Gerald Lange
              David and Glenn and others Apparently this has been resolved: http://cgm.cs.mcgill.ca/~luc/ Gerald
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 29, 2006
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                David and Glenn and others

                Apparently this has been resolved:

                http://cgm.cs.mcgill.ca/~luc/

                Gerald
              • Peter Fraterdeus
                ... Hmm. The type design community had a short but hearty hurrah. This publisher is well known for his disdain of intellectual property and the creative
                Message 7 of 9 , May 1, 2006
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                  > > L's controversial but long-lived, useful, and
                  > > extraordinarily comprehensive typographic site has apparently been
                  > > censored and wiped from McG Uni's database but is now, thankfully,
                  > > up at
                  > > ...
                  > >
                  >> Freedom of speech and the expression of ideas lives? stay tuned.
                  >>
                  >> Gerald Lange
                  > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                  Hmm. The type design community had a short but hearty hurrah.

                  This 'publisher' is well known for his disdain of intellectual property and the creative efforts of type designers.
                  In particular his links to known font and software pirates have been a continual source of dispute.

                  Before writing this note, I went to said site, and indeed, there is much of potential value there.
                  It's only too bad that the publisher would not leave well enough alone.

                  It's one thing to give away one's own property, another to encourage others to give their own away, but quite another indeed, to give away another's property... or to encourage those that do.

                  While we may believe that Adobe, Apple or Microsoft can absorb the loss of type sales (and in fact, often give fonts away as part of the OS, or as marketing incentives), it is not true at all for the small professional foundries, whether Hoefler & Frere-Jones, Font Bureau, P22, et alia

                  When the fellow encourages the pirating of original type design from these creative hardworking designers, I think he deserves censure and disdain himself.

                  He apparently attempts to make himself known at conferences as some sort of expert, but I don't believe he has designed a type family himself, nor tried to make a living doing so.

                  As an example, amongst his listings (many of which are wildly obsolete, btw) is a large enthusiastic review of "@p0str0phic Labor@t0rie5" * whose proprietor is alleged (in fact was sued and found liable, if I'm not mistaken) to have taken commercial fonts, run them through an editor to change -- nothing, essentially, except the copyright -- and then release them as "free". In fact, said proprietor, if I'm not mistaken, cheerfully acknowledged and bragged thereof.

                  This is not an academic discussing pornography, to cite an analogy I've seen bandied about.
                  It's simply aiding and abetting copyright infringement, aka piracy.

                  That's my 3 cents and I'll stick with it.
                  P

                  * leet so as not to allow easy archive access to this name

                  AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                  ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!

                  Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
                  Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography
                  Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com http://www.galenaphotos.com
                  Galena, Illinois http://www.alphabets.com
                • Gerald Lange
                  Hi Peter There is a lengthy discussion about this over at Typophile. I m not sure I would venture to say the type design community had a hurrah, though some of
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 1, 2006
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                    Hi Peter

                    There is a lengthy discussion about this over at Typophile. I'm not
                    sure I would venture to say the type design community had a hurrah,
                    though some of them might have. This became more an issue of free speech.

                    My defense of Luc would be that he is a mathematician with an interest
                    in fonts and typefaces and had access to McGill's search engine, so
                    long ago he set it to find everything there is on fonts and typefaces
                    on the internet and everything that showed up went into the site. A
                    spectrum of what is going on in the world of type, which includes
                    theft and piracy. I can't say that I have ever seen anything where he
                    personally advocated theft or piracy. Though I have seen articles
                    where he is often critical of the powers that be.


                    A couple of points though in regard to your post:

                    I think most folks who are after free fonts would never consider
                    buying a font anyway.

                    Bundled fonts by the major foundries itself devalued the worth of
                    fonts to the average user.

                    With the complexity involved in producing OpenType fonts, the free
                    font movement is essentially dead, and all that really remains is the
                    remnants of the 1990s.

                    Folks who copy fonts from foundries and issue them as their own rarely
                    attend to the technical qualities of a typeface, and often convert
                    them to the TrueType format, so their fonts are essentially useless
                    for any productive purpose.

                    Current bit torrent software/technology and mentality ("sharing") has
                    made all and any protection of software essentially useless.

                    I am on your side. Folks should get paid for their work, or there will
                    not be any quality work. But Luc is not the problem. He only provided
                    the access links. It is ultimately up to the individual if they want
                    to steal. And that is their problem.

                    Gerald


                    >
                    > Hmm. The type design community had a short but hearty hurrah.
                    >
                    > This 'publisher' is well known for his disdain of intellectual
                    property and the creative efforts of type designers.
                    > In particular his links to known font and software pirates have been
                    a continual source of dispute.
                    >
                    > Before writing this note, I went to said site, and indeed, there is
                    much of potential value there.
                    > It's only too bad that the publisher would not leave well enough alone.
                    >
                    > It's one thing to give away one's own property, another to encourage
                    others to give their own away, but quite another indeed, to give away
                    another's property... or to encourage those that do.
                    >
                    > While we may believe that Adobe, Apple or Microsoft can absorb the
                    loss of type sales (and in fact, often give fonts away as part of the
                    OS, or as marketing incentives), it is not true at all for the small
                    professional foundries, whether Hoefler & Frere-Jones, Font Bureau,
                    P22, et alia
                    >
                    > When the fellow encourages the pirating of original type design from
                    these creative hardworking designers, I think he deserves censure and
                    disdain himself.
                    >
                    > He apparently attempts to make himself known at conferences as some
                    sort of expert, but I don't believe he has designed a type family
                    himself, nor tried to make a living doing so.
                    >
                    > As an example, amongst his listings (many of which are wildly
                    obsolete, btw) is a large enthusiastic review of "@p0str0phic
                    Labor@t0rie5" * whose proprietor is alleged (in fact was sued and
                    found liable, if I'm not mistaken) to have taken commercial fonts, run
                    them through an editor to change -- nothing, essentially, except the
                    copyright -- and then release them as "free". In fact, said
                    proprietor, if I'm not mistaken, cheerfully acknowledged and bragged
                    thereof.
                    >
                    > This is not an academic discussing pornography, to cite an analogy
                    I've seen bandied about.
                    > It's simply aiding and abetting copyright infringement, aka piracy.
                    >
                    > That's my 3 cents and I'll stick with it.
                    > P
                    >
                    > * leet so as not to allow easy archive access to this name
                    >
                    > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                    > ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!
                    >
                    > Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
                    > Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography
                    > Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com http://www.galenaphotos.com
                    > Galena, Illinois http://www.alphabets.com
                    >
                  • Gerald Lange
                    To further reinforce this. For me to point to this link, which can be found by anyone searching the net: http://thepiratebay.org/details.php?id=3459434 does
                    Message 9 of 9 , May 2, 2006
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                      To further reinforce this. For me to point to this link, which can be
                      found by anyone searching the net:

                      http://thepiratebay.org/details.php?id=459434

                      does this mean I advocate theft? It is only informational. The
                      recipient of that information has to make their own ethical/moral
                      decision.

                      [though for any with greedier tastes than shaky knees, bit torrent has
                      its own punishment, your computer will likely be compromised by a bad
                      guy in what, maybe, a couple of minutes or so?]

                      More info on bit torrent here
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bittorrent

                      And to think, the web held such promise. But, invite everyone in and
                      what do you get? personal websites, personal blogging, flickr personal
                      photo sharing, frappr personal here I am look at me or whatever that
                      is all about; everything brought down to the basic lowest common
                      denominator: an old sin, Greed, and a 21st century sin, Posing.

                      Peter, this ain't about Luc, it's about us.

                      Gerald



                      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <bieler@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Peter
                      >
                      > There is a lengthy discussion about this over at Typophile. I'm not
                      > sure I would venture to say the type design community had a hurrah,
                      > though some of them might have. This became more an issue of free
                      speech.
                      >
                      > My defense of Luc would be that he is a mathematician with an interest
                      > in fonts and typefaces and had access to McGill's search engine, so
                      > long ago he set it to find everything there is on fonts and typefaces
                      > on the internet and everything that showed up went into the site. A
                      > spectrum of what is going on in the world of type, which includes
                      > theft and piracy. I can't say that I have ever seen anything where he
                      > personally advocated theft or piracy. Though I have seen articles
                      > where he is often critical of the powers that be.
                      >
                      >
                      > A couple of points though in regard to your post:
                      >
                      > I think most folks who are after free fonts would never consider
                      > buying a font anyway.
                      >
                      > Bundled fonts by the major foundries itself devalued the worth of
                      > fonts to the average user.
                      >
                      > With the complexity involved in producing OpenType fonts, the free
                      > font movement is essentially dead, and all that really remains is the
                      > remnants of the 1990s.
                      >
                      > Folks who copy fonts from foundries and issue them as their own rarely
                      > attend to the technical qualities of a typeface, and often convert
                      > them to the TrueType format, so their fonts are essentially useless
                      > for any productive purpose.
                      >
                      > Current bit torrent software/technology and mentality ("sharing") has
                      > made all and any protection of software essentially useless.
                      >
                      > I am on your side. Folks should get paid for their work, or there will
                      > not be any quality work. But Luc is not the problem. He only provided
                      > the access links. It is ultimately up to the individual if they want
                      > to steal. And that is their problem.
                      >
                      > Gerald
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Hmm. The type design community had a short but hearty hurrah.
                      > >
                      > > This 'publisher' is well known for his disdain of intellectual
                      > property and the creative efforts of type designers.
                      > > In particular his links to known font and software pirates have been
                      > a continual source of dispute.
                      > >
                      > > Before writing this note, I went to said site, and indeed, there is
                      > much of potential value there.
                      > > It's only too bad that the publisher would not leave well enough
                      alone.
                      > >
                      > > It's one thing to give away one's own property, another to encourage
                      > others to give their own away, but quite another indeed, to give away
                      > another's property... or to encourage those that do.
                      > >
                      > > While we may believe that Adobe, Apple or Microsoft can absorb the
                      > loss of type sales (and in fact, often give fonts away as part of the
                      > OS, or as marketing incentives), it is not true at all for the small
                      > professional foundries, whether Hoefler & Frere-Jones, Font Bureau,
                      > P22, et alia
                      > >
                      > > When the fellow encourages the pirating of original type design from
                      > these creative hardworking designers, I think he deserves censure and
                      > disdain himself.
                      > >
                      > > He apparently attempts to make himself known at conferences as some
                      > sort of expert, but I don't believe he has designed a type family
                      > himself, nor tried to make a living doing so.
                      > >
                      > > As an example, amongst his listings (many of which are wildly
                      > obsolete, btw) is a large enthusiastic review of "@p0str0phic
                      > Labor@t0rie5" * whose proprietor is alleged (in fact was sued and
                      > found liable, if I'm not mistaken) to have taken commercial fonts, run
                      > them through an editor to change -- nothing, essentially, except the
                      > copyright -- and then release them as "free". In fact, said
                      > proprietor, if I'm not mistaken, cheerfully acknowledged and bragged
                      > thereof.
                      > >
                      > > This is not an academic discussing pornography, to cite an analogy
                      > I've seen bandied about.
                      > > It's simply aiding and abetting copyright infringement, aka piracy.
                      > >
                      > > That's my 3 cents and I'll stick with it.
                      > > P
                      > >
                      > > * leet so as not to allow easy archive access to this name
                      > >
                      > > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                      > > ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!
                      > >
                      > > Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
                      > > Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography
                      > > Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com http://www.galenaphotos.com
                      > > Galena, Illinois http://www.alphabets.com
                      > >
                      >
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