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digital font recommendations??

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  • Kevin
    Hello all, I m looking for digital versions of Copperplate, Engravers Roman, and Engravers Gothic. I ve found several foundry s that offer these (Elsner+Flake,
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 10, 2006
      Hello all,

      I'm looking for digital versions of Copperplate, Engravers Roman, and
      Engravers Gothic. I've found several foundry's that offer these
      (Elsner+Flake, Bitstream, Linotype) I am just wondering, based on
      your experiences, what foundry's version of these you would recommend
      for PP/Letterpress printing? I'm also leaning towards Lanston's
      Caslon set (all 12 styles), anyone have experience with this font?

      Thanks for any advise. Kevin.
    • Gerald Lange
      Kevin I didn t look at the first three fonts you are looking for. All these foundries provide fairly good technically proficient fonts. Look for the thinnest
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 10, 2006
        Kevin

        I didn't look at the first three fonts you are looking for. All these
        foundries provide fairly good technically proficient fonts. Look for
        the thinnest variant I guess.

        I've used the Lanston Caslon. Straight out of the can it works well at
        text sizes. Right on the mark with the metal version. 14-pt and above,
        or very small text sizes (8-pt and below) I'd opt to modify (size
        optimize) it. If you buy the lot it looks like you get both the PS1
        and the OT. The PS1 can be letterpress configured with Fontographer.
        I've got a recent cheat sheet over at [Type Road]

        http://BielerPressII.blogspot.com

        for the OS X version of FOG.

        Modifying OT fonts with FontLab Studio is just a can of worms and a
        crap shoot at this point; not at all worth the effort and time spent
        in the attempt.

        Gerald




        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Kevin <kevin@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello all,
        >
        > I'm looking for digital versions of Copperplate, Engravers Roman, and
        > Engravers Gothic. I've found several foundry's that offer these
        > (Elsner+Flake, Bitstream, Linotype) I am just wondering, based on
        > your experiences, what foundry's version of these you would recommend
        > for PP/Letterpress printing? I'm also leaning towards Lanston's
        > Caslon set (all 12 styles), anyone have experience with this font?
        >
        > Thanks for any advise. Kevin.
        >
      • Kevin
        Thanks Gerald, I ve been reading through your book, the yahoo group site, and your blog trying to get as much info as I can on using and modifying digital
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 10, 2006
          Thanks Gerald, I've been reading through your book, the yahoo group
          site, and your blog trying to get as much info as I can on using and
          modifying digital faces for letterpress. I'd like to build a nice
          little library of well designed typefaces- aesthetically and
          technically, and would like to purchase the best that I can find and
          afford. Lanston's Caslon has been at the top of my "wish" list for a
          while now. Guess I'll just have to flip a coin on the Copperplate :)

          Which font modification software do you find to be a better product
          for OS X? That's something I'd like to start learning pretty soon.

          Kevin.
        • Gerald Lange
          Hi I did go and look at those typefaces. The Bitstream versions look better than the others, to my eyes. Well, at least for letterpress. I don t know what is
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 10, 2006
            Hi

            I did go and look at those typefaces. The Bitstream versions look better
            than the others, to my eyes. Well, at least for letterpress.

            I don't know what is the best font modification product. One would think
            FontLab Studio. But when I think about how much I have spent on their
            products and the only useful thing to come out of it all was
            Fontographer for OS X, man. Occam's Razor, my good man, Occam's Razor.

            Gerald

            Kevin wrote:
            > Thanks Gerald, I've been reading through your book, the yahoo group
            > site, and your blog trying to get as much info as I can on using and
            > modifying digital faces for letterpress. I'd like to build a nice
            > little library of well designed typefaces- aesthetically and
            > technically, and would like to purchase the best that I can find and
            > afford. Lanston's Caslon has been at the top of my "wish" list for a
            > while now. Guess I'll just have to flip a coin on the Copperplate :)
            >
            > Which font modification software do you find to be a better product
            > for OS X? That's something I'd like to start learning pretty soon.
            >
            > Kevin.
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Gerald Lange
            Kevin I have gone back and tested this all over again. If I generate a modified font in FontLab Studio I cannot explain, in a reasonable manner, to anyone
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 17, 2006
              Kevin

              I have gone back and tested this all over again. If I generate a
              modified font in FontLab Studio I cannot explain, in a reasonable
              manner, to anyone else, how to do it. There are far too many
              variables. Most of which have to do with importing and exporting
              parameters.

              All I can reasonable guarantee is the sequence I have created for
              Fontographer, both the Classic and OS X variants in PS1 format (in the
              monograph and on the web log). Neither of these are adequate for OT
              since any FOG instances intended for this format would ultimately have
              to be generated from Fontlab Studio or its kindred.

              I think the days of font modification are near over. And font creation
              as well. There are far fewer foundries coming up than previously and
              far more dropping by the wayside. I'd suspect, in my wildest paranois,
              that that was a hidden agenda behind the OT format.

              Gerald
              http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


              > Which font modification software do you find to be a better product
              > for OS X? That's something I'd like to start learning pretty soon.
              >
              > Kevin.
              >
            • Peter Fraterdeus
              Hi Gerald, Kevin, et al ... Indeed, I ve found FLS a bit obtuse at times. I m also embarrassed to admit that while intending for some time to order a copy of
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 18, 2006
                Hi Gerald, Kevin, et al

                >Kevin
                >
                >I have gone back and tested this all over again. If I generate a
                >modified font in FontLab Studio I cannot explain, in a reasonable
                >manner, to anyone else, how to do it. There are far too many
                >variables. Most of which have to do with importing and exporting
                >parameters.

                Indeed, I've found FLS a bit obtuse at times.
                I'm also embarrassed to admit that while intending for some time to order a copy of Gerald's book on the matter, I have yet to do so! (and thus can't comment intelligently on how I might proceed to arrive at a similar result with Font Lab)

                However, I am feeling more comfortable with the program now, and would hazard to undertake such a modification as an experiment, if, Gerald, you can encapsulate the conditions of success?
                I see you mention your blog. I'll have a look there.

                >All I can reasonable guarantee is the sequence I have created for
                >Fontographer, both the Classic and OS X variants in PS1 format (in the
                >monograph and on the web log). Neither of these are adequate for OT
                >since any FOG instances intended for this format would ultimately have
                >to be generated from Fontlab Studio or its kindred.


                >I think the days of font modification are near over. And font creation
                >as well. There are far fewer foundries coming up than previously and
                >far more dropping by the wayside.

                So it goes ;-)
                There's been a hell of a lot of awful "type" produced in the last 20 years, with the effect of thoroughly muddying the waters for anyone who actually produces the good stuff. The quality foundries, Hoefler, P22, Font Bureau, Linotype, et al, are putting out some gorgeous work these days. Whether they can stay afloat with all the piracy and the dilution of their best efforts by the constant "cultural" devaluation of fonts in general is another question.

                > I'd suspect, in my wildest paranois,
                >that that was a hidden agenda behind the OT format.

                I'm still not sure how you're arriving this belief, though it does rather reflect my suspicions about the inevitable results of 'big' money in any field.

                Best

                PF

                AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!

                Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
                Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography

                Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com http://www.galenaphotos.com
                Galena, Illinois http://www.alphabets.com
                Photography Irish Fiddle Political Observation
                Philosophy Fonts Lettering

                --
              • Jason Dewinetz
                Learn FontLab Fast I haven t seen the book myself, but I ve heard it recommended again and again as the most straightforward and practical guide to FontLab.
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 18, 2006
                  "Learn FontLab Fast"

                  I haven't seen the book myself, but I've heard it recommended again and again as the most straightforward and practical guide to FontLab. For more info: http://www.logofontandlettering.com/

                  Jason


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Peter Fraterdeus
                  To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 3:59 AM
                  Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: digital font recommendations??


                  Hi Gerald, Kevin, et al

                  >Kevin
                  >
                  >I have gone back and tested this all over again. If I generate a
                  >modified font in FontLab Studio I cannot explain, in a reasonable
                  >manner, to anyone else, how to do it. There are far too many
                  >variables. Most of which have to do with importing and exporting
                  >parameters.

                  Indeed, I've found FLS a bit obtuse at times.
                  I'm also embarrassed to admit that while intending for some time to order a copy of Gerald's book on the matter, I have yet to do so! (and thus can't comment intelligently on how I might proceed to arrive at a similar result with Font Lab)

                  However, I am feeling more comfortable with the program now, and would hazard to undertake such a modification as an experiment, if, Gerald, you can encapsulate the conditions of success?
                  I see you mention your blog. I'll have a look there.

                  >All I can reasonable guarantee is the sequence I have created for
                  >Fontographer, both the Classic and OS X variants in PS1 format (in the
                  >monograph and on the web log). Neither of these are adequate for OT
                  >since any FOG instances intended for this format would ultimately have
                  >to be generated from Fontlab Studio or its kindred.


                  >I think the days of font modification are near over. And font creation
                  >as well. There are far fewer foundries coming up than previously and
                  >far more dropping by the wayside.

                  So it goes ;-)
                  There's been a hell of a lot of awful "type" produced in the last 20 years, with the effect of thoroughly muddying the waters for anyone who actually produces the good stuff. The quality foundries, Hoefler, P22, Font Bureau, Linotype, et al, are putting out some gorgeous work these days. Whether they can stay afloat with all the piracy and the dilution of their best efforts by the constant "cultural" devaluation of fonts in general is another question.

                  > I'd suspect, in my wildest paranois,
                  >that that was a hidden agenda behind the OT format.

                  I'm still not sure how you're arriving this belief, though it does rather reflect my suspicions about the inevitable results of 'big' money in any field.

                  Best

                  PF

                  AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                  ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!

                  Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
                  Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography

                  Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com http://www.galenaphotos.com
                  Galena, Illinois http://www.alphabets.com
                  Photography Irish Fiddle Political Observation
                  Philosophy Fonts Lettering

                  --


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                • Gerald Lange
                  Peter Let me dig up the the old FontLab sequence (pre FontLab Studio) and send that to you. The problem I am encountering is mainly with the proper
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 19, 2006
                    Peter

                    Let me dig up the the old FontLab sequence (pre FontLab Studio) and send
                    that to you. The problem I am encountering is mainly with the proper
                    configuration for importing and exporting the fonts. No problem with the
                    modification itself. The "conditions of success," a wonderful phrase by
                    the way, are simply, how is this to be explained to anyone else in a way
                    that is perfectly understandable. The problem with FontLab Studio is the
                    complexity of options. These need to be eliminated.

                    I'll drag the old sequence out and post it here for your convenience.
                    I'll try to do this tomorrow (well, actually today). Apologies to the
                    list beforehand.

                    And.... thanks.

                    Gerald

                    Peter Fraterdeus wrote:
                    > Hi Gerald, Kevin, et al
                    >
                    >
                    >> Kevin
                    >>
                    >> I have gone back and tested this all over again. If I generate a
                    >> modified font in FontLab Studio I cannot explain, in a reasonable
                    >> manner, to anyone else, how to do it. There are far too many
                    >> variables. Most of which have to do with importing and exporting
                    >> parameters.
                    >>
                    >
                    > Indeed, I've found FLS a bit obtuse at times.
                    > I'm also embarrassed to admit that while intending for some time to order a copy of Gerald's book on the matter, I have yet to do so! (and thus can't comment intelligently on how I might proceed to arrive at a similar result with Font Lab)
                    >
                    > However, I am feeling more comfortable with the program now, and would hazard to undertake such a modification as an experiment, if, Gerald, you can encapsulate the conditions of success?
                    > I see you mention your blog. I'll have a look there.
                    >
                  • Gerald Lange
                    Peter, Kevin. . . I was able to construct a sequence for the modification of PS1 fonts with FontLab Studio this afternoon. And have generated a couple of fonts
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 19, 2006
                      Peter, Kevin. . .

                      I was able to construct a sequence for the modification of PS1 fonts
                      with FontLab Studio this afternoon. And have generated a couple of fonts
                      using it. It tests out well. This can also be followed for generating
                      OpenType fonts but the encoding must be changed. The encoding options
                      for OT are adjusted in the FontLab Studio preferences, as are those for
                      PS1. As with the Fontographer sequence it takes only a couple of minutes
                      to alter and generate a font using this pathway.

                      FYI: I put it up on the blog
                      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                      It is located on the Articles & Opinion page.

                      Gerald




                      Peter Fraterdeus wrote:
                      Hi Gerald, Kevin, et al


                      > Kevin
                      >
                      > I have gone back and tested this all over again. If I generate a
                      > modified font in FontLab Studio I cannot explain, in a reasonable
                      > manner, to anyone else, how to do it. There are far too many
                      > variables. Most of which have to do with importing and exporting
                      > parameters.
                      >

                      Indeed, I've found FLS a bit obtuse at times.
                      I'm also embarrassed to admit that while intending for some time to
                      order a copy of Gerald's book on the matter, I have yet to do so! (and
                      thus can't comment intelligently on how I might proceed to arrive at a
                      similar result with Font Lab)

                      However, I am feeling more comfortable with the program now, and would
                      hazard to undertake such a modification as an experiment, if, Gerald,
                      you can encapsulate the conditions of success?
                      I see you mention your blog. I'll have a look there.
                    • Peter Fraterdeus
                      ... Gerald It took me some time to figure out the encoding settings also. Helped when I finally RTFM d with the program open in front of me. I think having a
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 19, 2006
                        >Peter, Kevin. . .
                        >
                        >I was able to construct a sequence for the modification of PS1 fonts
                        >with FontLab Studio this afternoon. And have generated a couple of fonts
                        >using it. It tests out well. This can also be followed for generating
                        >OpenType fonts but the encoding must be changed.
                        >....
                        >
                        >FYI: I put it up on the blog
                        >http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                        >It is located on the Articles & Opinion page.


                        Gerald
                        It took me some time to figure out the encoding settings also.
                        Helped when I finally RTFM'd with the program open in front of me.
                        I think having a second monitor helped a lot! ;-)

                        Good to know!

                        You say
                        "From the menu bar, open File, select Open and choose the PostScript Type 1 font you intend to modify"

                        One should also be able to perform the same ops on an existing TrueType or OpenType font, if I'm not mistaken.

                        The main conditions are really that you will not be making a Type 1 font, and therefore all the assumptions about Adobe encoding have gone out the window!

                        BTW, looks like a typo here:

                        "Font Format option AXCII/UNIX Type I should"

                        Thanks much for the update. I assumed that the "bold" transform would do what we need to do (In this case an anti-bold!)

                        Best,
                        Peter
                        ...

                        --
                        AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                        ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!

                        Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
                        Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography

                        Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com http://www.galenaphotos.com
                        Galena, Illinois http://www.alphabets.com
                        Photography Irish Fiddle Political Observation
                        Philosophy Fonts Lettering
                      • Gerald Lange
                        Peter Yeah, multiple screens work nicely. My main display is a 23 inch though so everything, manual, FL, Word, etc all fit. It would also help if the PDF
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 19, 2006
                          Peter

                          Yeah, multiple screens work nicely. My main display is a 23 inch though
                          so everything, manual, FL, Word, etc all fit. It would also help if the
                          PDF manual could be printed out. It's got a bunch of Postscript errors
                          in it.

                          Yes, the operations would be the same for TT and OT with the exception
                          that the encoding for each would be different. As well as for a PS1
                          destined to be output as OT. But, fortunately, for a change, it all IS
                          in the manual. All one has to do is find it in that 900+ page tome!!!

                          Yeah, anti-bold. There are other transformation actions that can be
                          considered as well but I needed to keep this quite simple or it would be
                          useless.

                          Thanks for the tip on the typo. I rushed it up so I am sure there are
                          others. There always are.

                          Gerald

                          Peter Fraterdeus wrote:
                          >> Peter, Kevin. . .
                          >>
                          >> I was able to construct a sequence for the modification of PS1 fonts
                          >> with FontLab Studio this afternoon. And have generated a couple of fonts
                          >> using it. It tests out well. This can also be followed for generating
                          >> OpenType fonts but the encoding must be changed.
                          >> ....
                          >>
                          >> FYI: I put it up on the blog
                          >> http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                          >> It is located on the Articles & Opinion page.
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          > Gerald
                          > It took me some time to figure out the encoding settings also.
                          > Helped when I finally RTFM'd with the program open in front of me.
                          > I think having a second monitor helped a lot! ;-)
                          >
                          > Good to know!
                          >
                          > You say
                          > "From the menu bar, open File, select Open and choose the PostScript Type 1 font you intend to modify"
                          >
                          > One should also be able to perform the same ops on an existing TrueType or OpenType font, if I'm not mistaken.
                          >
                          > The main conditions are really that you will not be making a Type 1 font, and therefore all the assumptions about Adobe encoding have gone out the window!
                          >
                          > BTW, looks like a typo here:
                          >
                          > "Font Format option AXCII/UNIX Type I should"
                          >
                          > Thanks much for the update. I assumed that the "bold" transform would do what we need to do (In this case an anti-bold!)
                          >
                          > Best,
                          > Peter
                          > ...
                          >
                          >
                        • Peter Fraterdeus
                          ... Ugh. That s helpful, indeed ... I recall when I first set my Prospera font for my old newsletter MiceType, I had to add a stroke width to the text (this
                          Message 12 of 13 , Apr 19, 2006
                            >Peter
                            >
                            >Yeah, multiple screens work nicely. My main display is a 23 inch though
                            >so everything, manual, FL, Word, etc all fit. It would also help if the
                            >PDF manual could be printed out. It's got a bunch of Postscript errors
                            >in it.

                            Ugh.
                            That's helpful, indeed
                            >
                            >Yeah, anti-bold. There are other transformation actions that can be
                            >considered as well but I needed to keep this quite simple or it would be
                            >useless.

                            I recall when I first set my Prospera font for my old newsletter MiceType, I had to add a stroke width to the text (this was in Pagemaker, I believe) when it was being set on the Linotronic. This helped to compensate for the loss of visual weight at smaller sizes. (This is the reverse of what you are doing, of course, but it may help clarify the issues involved!)

                            I eventually added a 'book' weight to the family, which would show a bit more substance at text sizes.
                            However, when I would use the original weight in a mag plate for letterpress printing, Prospera performed beautifully.

                            It's as if I'd started out intended to design a relief printing typeface.
                            In fact, the reason for the lighter design weight was, in those pre-Type 1 disclosure days (Fontographer would only produce PostScript Type 3), that the output on a Laserwriter was always far too dark, since there was no way to hint a Type 3 font.

                            Also, one perennial problem with CAD font design is that the letters on screen are huge and elegant (I love zooming in on serifs), and thus one will always see an optically bolder letter. As the x-height becomes smaller, the area covered by the 'inked' or filled shapes in the glyph shrinks exponentially, and the eye sees more and more 'background' against which the stroke will seem to diminish even further...

                            The nice thing about printing such a face on a relief press is that the natural expression of the technique will almost perfectly counter the optical thinning! (that is, the ink-spread and additional variables)

                            Thus, as you say, there are digital faces which work quite well for PP LP without having to 'hack' them.

                            Regards from Galena

                            pf

                            AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                            ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!

                            Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
                            Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography

                            Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com http://www.galenaphotos.com
                            Galena, Illinois http://www.alphabets.com
                            Photography Irish Fiddle Political Observation
                            Philosophy Fonts Lettering


                            --
                            AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                            ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!

                            Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
                            Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography

                            Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com http://www.galenaphotos.com
                            Galena, Illinois http://www.alphabets.com
                            Photography Irish Fiddle Political Observation
                            Philosophy Fonts Lettering
                          • Gerald Lange
                            Hi again ... Yeah, that s exactly the point. If I am configuring for very small text sizes I will also often bump up the weight a tad and also use the
                            Message 13 of 13 , Apr 19, 2006
                              Hi again
                              > The nice thing about printing such a face on a relief press is that the natural expression of the technique will almost perfectly counter the optical thinning! (that is, the ink-spread and additional variables)
                              Yeah, that's exactly the point.

                              If I am configuring for very small text sizes I will also often bump up
                              the weight a tad and also use the transform unit width and adjust the
                              metrics a bit, but that has more to do with sort of a simplistic
                              approach to optimization. It's not much but every little bit helps.

                              Interesting info about adjusting for PS3. Pretty cool.

                              Gerald




                              Peter Fraterdeus wrote:
                              >
                              > I recall when I first set my Prospera font for my old newsletter MiceType, I had to add a stroke width to the text (this was in Pagemaker, I believe) when it was being set on the Linotronic. This helped to compensate for the loss of visual weight at smaller sizes. (This is the reverse of what you are doing, of course, but it may help clarify the issues involved!)
                              >
                              > I eventually added a 'book' weight to the family, which would show a bit more substance at text sizes.
                              > However, when I would use the original weight in a mag plate for letterpress printing, Prospera performed beautifully.
                              >
                              > It's as if I'd started out intended to design a relief printing typeface.
                              > In fact, the reason for the lighter design weight was, in those pre-Type 1 disclosure days (Fontographer would only produce PostScript Type 3), that the output on a Laserwriter was always far too dark, since there was no way to hint a Type 3 font.
                              >
                              > Also, one perennial problem with CAD font design is that the letters on screen are huge and elegant (I love zooming in on serifs), and thus one will always see an optically bolder letter. As the x-height becomes smaller, the area covered by the 'inked' or filled shapes in the glyph shrinks exponentially, and the eye sees more and more 'background' against which the stroke will seem to diminish even further...
                              >
                              > The nice thing about printing such a face on a relief press is that the natural expression of the technique will almost perfectly counter the optical thinning! (that is, the ink-spread and additional variables)
                              >
                              > Thus, as you say, there are digital faces which work quite well for PP LP without having to 'hack' them.
                              >
                              > Regards from Galena
                              >
                              > pf
                              >
                              > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                              > ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!
                              >
                              > Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
                              > Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography
                              >
                              > Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com http://www.galenaphotos.com
                              > Galena, Illinois http://www.alphabets.com
                              > Photography Irish Fiddle Political Observation
                              > Philosophy Fonts Lettering
                              >
                              >
                              >
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