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RE: [PPLetterpress] web design

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  • DuBois, Tad
    The various programs are fine, but if you really want to know HOW to do the design, get a copy of Elizabeth Castro s HTML for the World Wide Web (Peach Pit
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 4, 2006
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      The various programs are fine, but if you really want to know HOW to do
      the design, get a copy of Elizabeth Castro's HTML for the World Wide
      Web (Peach Pit Press--Visual Quickstart Guides) and learn how to hard
      code.
      Best $18.00 I ever spent.
      We use Macromedia Dreamweaver in my office but I keep going back to the
      source code and finding little problems that need resolution
      One piece of advice: don't build a word document and select "save as
      html" -- Bill has jammed so much excess code into the converter it's a
      miracle it works at all (and you end up with html pages that suffer
      from code-bloat, too).


      >> Hi, does anyone have a recommendation for a reasonable priced web
      page
      >> designer? I really don't need someone to design the layout of the
      >> pages but I need them to actually build the pages on the web. Any
      >> advice would be appreciated. Thanks!
    • Lance Williams
      Dave, I use a commercial hosting provider, and have not known about any problems, I know that version 6 has had a few issues when upgrading from files created
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 4, 2006
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        Dave,

        I use a commercial hosting provider, and have not known about any
        problems, I know that version 6 has had a few issues when upgrading from
        files created with version 5, which all of my pages were originally... I
        thought I had worked through all of them, but maybe not... I heard
        recently from someone that the site was not coming up properly, but did not
        get any real information as to what was wrong... Maybe the same issues as
        you with FireFox... I don't have that email anymore to refer to... What
        are the specific problems you have with the site??

        I'll still say for $50, WebEasy Pro is a great package, especially when
        compared to the price of FrontPage or the other commercial web design
        packages... But there are probably other lower cost page design programs
        for personal page design that are just as good....

        - Lance


        > [Original Message]
        > From: Dave Allen <canadian_bookbinder@...>
        > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
        > Date: 4/4/2006 4:37:07 PM
        > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] web design
        >
        > Hi Lance,
        > Do you use one of their web servers? I have heard that Webeasy Pro is
        > terrible to use if you use an independent ISP. Any more info?
        > Also are you aware that your website http://www.letterpressprinters.org/
        > does not display properly in Firefox?
        > Thanks
        > Dave
        >
        > Lance Williams wrote:
        > > I use WebEasy Pro, version 6.0. Available from CompUSA for $50 or
        so....
        > > It's a fairly complete package, and fairly intuitive... I use it for
        the
        > > Letterpress Printers of the World website as well as our business
        website
        > > and a few others I maintain.....
        > >
        > > - Lance Williams
        > > Williams Stationery Co.
        > > Camden, New York
        > > APA #785
        > >
        > >> [Original Message]
        > >> From: thistleberry_press <etsu4@...>
        > >> To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
        > >> Date: 4/4/2006 12:20:37 PM
        > >> Subject: [PPLetterpress] web design
        > >>
        > >> Hi, does anyone have a recommendation for a reasonable priced web page
        > >> designer? I really don't need someone to design the layout of the
        > >> pages but I need them to actually build the pages on the web. Any
        > >> advice would be appreciated. Thanks!
        > >>
        >
        > --
        > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
        > 840 Snowdrop Ave. Victoria BC V8Z 2N4
        > (250)888-9380 http://www.Bookbinder.ca
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Chad Pastotnik
        I used Mozilla to create my website and several others all hosted by Jatol.com which has excellent service and offers quite affordable packages depending on
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 4, 2006
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          I used Mozilla to create my website and several others all hosted by
          Jatol.com which has excellent service and offers quite affordable
          packages depending on your needs. It may not have all the fancy
          features but it's FREE, stable and cross platform.

          Chad

          p.s. Also all done on a slow dial-up connection which is all I can get
          up here in the still white N. Michigan.
          _____________________________

          Chad Pastotnik
          Deep Wood Press 231.587.0506
          http://www.deepwoodpress.com

          On Apr 4, 2006, at 4:53 PM, Lance Williams wrote:

          > Dave,
          >
          > I use a commercial hosting provider, and have not known about any
          > problems, I know that version 6 has had a few issues when upgrading
          > from
          > files created with version 5, which all of my pages were originally...
          > I
          > thought I had worked through all of them, but maybe not... I heard
          > recently from someone that the site was not coming up properly, but
          > did not
          > get any real information as to what was wrong... Maybe the same
          > issues as
          > you with FireFox... I don't have that email anymore to refer to...
          > What
          > are the specific problems you have with the site??
          >
          > I'll still say for $50, WebEasy Pro is a great package, especially
          > when
          > compared to the price of FrontPage or the other commercial web design
          > packages... But there are probably other lower cost page design
          > programs
          > for personal page design that are just as good....
          >
          > - Lance
          >
          >
          >> [Original Message]
          >> From: Dave Allen <canadian_bookbinder@...>
          >> To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
          >> Date: 4/4/2006 4:37:07 PM
          >> Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] web design
          >>
          >> Hi Lance,
          >> Do you use one of their web servers? I have heard that Webeasy Pro is
          >> terrible to use if you use an independent ISP. Any more info?
          >> Also are you aware that your website
          >> http://www.letterpressprinters.org/
          >> does not display properly in Firefox?
          >> Thanks
          >> Dave
          >>
          >> Lance Williams wrote:
          >>> I use WebEasy Pro, version 6.0. Available from CompUSA for $50 or
          > so....
          >>> It's a fairly complete package, and fairly intuitive... I use it for
          > the
          >>> Letterpress Printers of the World website as well as our business
          > website
          >>> and a few others I maintain.....
          >>>
          >>> - Lance Williams
          >>> Williams Stationery Co.
          >>> Camden, New York
          >>> APA #785
          >>>
          >>>> [Original Message]
          >>>> From: thistleberry_press <etsu4@...>
          >>>> To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
          >>>> Date: 4/4/2006 12:20:37 PM
          >>>> Subject: [PPLetterpress] web design
          >>>>
          >>>> Hi, does anyone have a recommendation for a reasonable priced web
          >>>> page
          >>>> designer? I really don't need someone to design the layout of the
          >>>> pages but I need them to actually build the pages on the web. Any
          >>>> advice would be appreciated. Thanks!
          >>>>
          >>
          >> --
          >> Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
          >> 840 Snowdrop Ave. Victoria BC V8Z 2N4
          >> (250)888-9380 http://www.Bookbinder.ca
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Jason Dewinetz
          I get a kick out of these applications; as though web development was an easy thing to do like a pro. Dreamweaver (was Macromedia, now Adobe) is, of
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 4, 2006
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            I get a kick out of these applications; as though "web" development was an
            "easy" thing to do like a "pro."

            Dreamweaver (was Macromedia, now Adobe) is, of course, the industry standard
            web development tool, but it can be a bit daunting for new users. The point,
            of course, is that it's unreasonable to think that just because you might
            know a few HTML tags you should go ahead and attempt to build a site that
            will meet even the simplest of technical or aesthetic standards. I'm biased,
            of course, as both a book and web designer, but it really is disappointing
            how many publishers and organizations are willing to have a very poorly
            designed and coded site represent them on the internet. That bright orange
            tie with the mustard all over it says a lot about the guy wearing it, and so
            does a site plagued by a distracting background, cheesy buttons, sloppy
            typography and default link styles.

            Don't get me wrong, I know that many publishers/organizations don't even
            have sufficient budgets to afford decent design for their books and other
            projects, let alone for their web site, but, like anything, you get what you
            pay for in this arena, as in any other. Cheap & "easy" web applications will
            help you to produce cheap and flaky web sites, or a college kid at $10/hr
            can do the same.

            Bethany, good for you for seeking some outside help, you'll be glad you did.
            I'm sure there are a handful of good design shops in your area, and working
            with someone local will make your life much easier when it comes to updates
            & maintenance.


            Jason Dewinetz


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Lance Williams
            To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 10:16 AM
            Subject: RE: [PPLetterpress] web design


            I use WebEasy Pro, version 6.0. Available from CompUSA for $50 or so....
            It's a fairly complete package, and fairly intuitive... I use it for the
            Letterpress Printers of the World website as well as our business website
            and a few others I maintain.....

            - Lance Williams
            Williams Stationery Co.
            Camden, New York
            APA #785



            > [Original Message]
            > From: thistleberry_press <etsu4@...>
            > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
            > Date: 4/4/2006 12:20:37 PM
            > Subject: [PPLetterpress] web design
            >
            > Hi, does anyone have a recommendation for a reasonable priced web page
            > designer? I really don't need someone to design the layout of the
            > pages but I need them to actually build the pages on the web. Any
            > advice would be appreciated. Thanks!
          • David Michael McNamara
            For what it s worth, I brought the site up in Firefox and IE, and the only difference I see is a little less border in on than the other. But then I didn t
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 4, 2006
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              For what it's worth, I brought the site up in Firefox and IE, and the only difference I see is a little less border in on than the other. But then I didn't examine it or go through all the links, so....
              __

              David
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Lance Williams
              To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 4:53 PM
              Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] web design


              Dave,

              I use a commercial hosting provider, and have not known about any
              problems, I know that version 6 has had a few issues when upgrading from
              files created with version 5, which all of my pages were originally... I
              thought I had worked through all of them, but maybe not... I heard
              recently from someone that the site was not coming up properly, but did not
              get any real information as to what was wrong... Maybe the same issues as
              you with FireFox... I don't have that email anymore to refer to... What
              are the specific problems you have with the site??

              I'll still say for $50, WebEasy Pro is a great package, especially when
              compared to the price of FrontPage or the other commercial web design
              packages... But there are probably other lower cost page design programs
              for personal page design that are just as good....

              - Lance


              > [Original Message]
              > From: Dave Allen <canadian_bookbinder@...>
              > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
              > Date: 4/4/2006 4:37:07 PM
              > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] web design
              >
              > Hi Lance,
              > Do you use one of their web servers? I have heard that Webeasy Pro is
              > terrible to use if you use an independent ISP. Any more info?
              > Also are you aware that your website http://www.letterpressprinters.org/
              > does not display properly in Firefox?
              > Thanks
              > Dave
              >
              > Lance Williams wrote:
              > > I use WebEasy Pro, version 6.0. Available from CompUSA for $50 or
              so....
              > > It's a fairly complete package, and fairly intuitive... I use it for
              the
              > > Letterpress Printers of the World website as well as our business
              website
              > > and a few others I maintain.....
              > >
              > > - Lance Williams
              > > Williams Stationery Co.
              > > Camden, New York
              > > APA #785
              > >
              > >> [Original Message]
              > >> From: thistleberry_press <etsu4@...>
              > >> To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
              > >> Date: 4/4/2006 12:20:37 PM
              > >> Subject: [PPLetterpress] web design
              > >>
              > >> Hi, does anyone have a recommendation for a reasonable priced web page
              > >> designer? I really don't need someone to design the layout of the
              > >> pages but I need them to actually build the pages on the web. Any
              > >> advice would be appreciated. Thanks!
              > >>
              >
              > --
              > Beddall Bookbinding Conservation & Restoration
              > 840 Snowdrop Ave. Victoria BC V8Z 2N4
              > (250)888-9380 http://www.Bookbinder.ca
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >




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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Carole Aldrich
              I totally agree. I feel the same about those who try to do their own print design when they are not designers. That said, get thee to a bookstore and buy Robin
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 4, 2006
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                I totally agree. I feel the same about those who try to do their own
                print design when they are not designers. That said, get thee to a
                bookstore and buy Robin Williams book "The Non-Designer's Web Book"
                published by Peachpit Press, or any of Robin's basic design books and
                follow her advice. They are the best.
              • Lance Williams
                But, when you have inherited a business that is $200,000 in debt, but love the business, and want to do anything and everything to try to rebuild the business,
                Message 7 of 19 , Apr 4, 2006
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                  But, when you have inherited a business that is $200,000 in debt, but love
                  the business, and want to do anything and everything to try to rebuild the
                  business, short of liquidating the place for about 50% of the debt load,
                  you have to resort to doing as much as you can yourself.... My father died
                  in December 2003, and my wife and I have been struggling to rebuild the
                  business since then... I have been working there for 25 years, but my
                  father managed to hide a lot of the financial problems for many years....
                  Now we have all this letterpress equipment sitting idle most days because
                  we no longer have the business to keep things operating...

                  On the PPL side of things: We have a current NEW customer asking about
                  printing halftone photographic images. I have always used magnesium plates
                  from either Hodgins Engraving or Owosso. Now I am wondering about the use
                  of Photopolymer, especially since Harold Kyle is only about 35 miles away,
                  and I could run over for a visit, work on fixing one of his presses for a
                  morning in exchange for some plate work <grin>... What is the maximum line
                  screen resolution you can expect with polymer plates?? One of these days I
                  have to pick up a copy of Gerald's book and start learning about these
                  things....

                  - Lance Williams
                  Williams Stationery Co.
                  Camden, New York
                  APA #785


                  > [Original Message]
                  > From: Carole Aldrich <carolealdrich@...>
                  > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Date: 4/4/2006 6:17:23 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] web design
                  >
                  > I totally agree. I feel the same about those who try to do their own
                  > print design when they are not designers. That said, get thee to a
                  > bookstore and buy Robin Williams book "The Non-Designer's Web Book"
                  > published by Peachpit Press, or any of Robin's basic design books and
                  > follow her advice. They are the best.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Harold Kyle
                  We¹d be happy to help with your photopolymer plates, should you need any. I usually say that the line screens that the photopolymer holds exceed what you¹d
                  Message 8 of 19 , Apr 4, 2006
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                    We¹d be happy to help with your photopolymer plates, should you need any. I
                    usually say that the line screens that the photopolymer holds exceed what
                    you¹d be able to print well on a letterpress. The Jet 94FL, for instance,
                    can hold a 200 line screen according to its data sheet. Usually, though
                    letterpress printers stay within the 85 to 133 line screen range, with 100
                    lpi probably the most popular.

                    I hope this helps,
                    Harold


                    On 4/4/06 7:03 PM, "Lance Williams" <lwwill7999@...> wrote:

                    > What is the maximum line
                    > screen resolution you can expect with polymer plates??


                    Boxcar Press
                    Fine Printing / Digital Letterpress Supplies
                    Delavan Center / 501 W. Fayette St. / Studio 222 / Syracuse, NY 13204
                    315-473-0930 phone / 315-473-0967 fax / www.boxcarpress.com



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Casey
                    I can help you build or design. to see my work go to link below.Caseyhttp://www.mcgarrcreative.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 19 , Apr 4, 2006
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                      I can help you build or design. to see my work go to link
                      below.Caseyhttp://www.mcgarrcreative.com


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Gerald Lange
                      Jason There were a couple of recent notices in Microsoft Typography about purposeful bad (simple) web design and how it is more effective. I d tend to agree,
                      Message 10 of 19 , Apr 5, 2006
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                        Jason

                        There were a couple of recent notices in Microsoft Typography about
                        purposeful bad (simple) web design and how it is more effective. I'd
                        tend to agree, and apparently so would eBay, Yahoo, flickr, etc.

                        Here's one of the links

                        http://arts.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1729662,00.html

                        The argument is that folks are searching for information, the faster
                        and easier it is to access the better. Every time I go to a "graphic
                        design" site and have to sit there and watch the thing mysteriously
                        unwind or try to guess which icon or whatever I'm supposed to click on
                        to be illuminated, basically, I'm out of there. I'm looking for
                        information; I don't care how clever the websmaster is. I can find my
                        entertainment elsewhere.

                        Gerald




                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Dewinetz" <jason@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I get a kick out of these applications; as though "web" development
                        was an
                        > "easy" thing to do like a "pro."
                        >
                        > Dreamweaver (was Macromedia, now Adobe) is, of course, the industry
                        standard
                        > web development tool, but it can be a bit daunting for new users.
                        The point,
                        > of course, is that it's unreasonable to think that just because you
                        might
                        > know a few HTML tags you should go ahead and attempt to build a site
                        that
                        > will meet even the simplest of technical or aesthetic standards. I'm
                        biased,
                        > of course, as both a book and web designer, but it really is
                        disappointing
                        > how many publishers and organizations are willing to have a very poorly
                        > designed and coded site represent them on the internet. That bright
                        orange
                        > tie with the mustard all over it says a lot about the guy wearing
                        it, and so
                        > does a site plagued by a distracting background, cheesy buttons, sloppy
                        > typography and default link styles.
                        >
                        > Don't get me wrong, I know that many publishers/organizations don't
                        even
                        > have sufficient budgets to afford decent design for their books and
                        other
                        > projects, let alone for their web site, but, like anything, you get
                        what you
                        > pay for in this arena, as in any other. Cheap & "easy" web
                        applications will
                        > help you to produce cheap and flaky web sites, or a college kid at
                        $10/hr
                        > can do the same.
                        >
                        > Bethany, good for you for seeking some outside help, you'll be glad
                        you did.
                        > I'm sure there are a handful of good design shops in your area, and
                        working
                        > with someone local will make your life much easier when it comes to
                        updates
                        > & maintenance.
                        >
                        >
                        > Jason Dewinetz
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Lance Williams
                        > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 10:16 AM
                        > Subject: RE: [PPLetterpress] web design
                        >
                        >
                        > I use WebEasy Pro, version 6.0. Available from CompUSA for $50 or
                        so....
                        > It's a fairly complete package, and fairly intuitive... I use it
                        for the
                        > Letterpress Printers of the World website as well as our business
                        website
                        > and a few others I maintain.....
                        >
                        > - Lance Williams
                        > Williams Stationery Co.
                        > Camden, New York
                        > APA #785
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > > [Original Message]
                        > > From: thistleberry_press <etsu4@...>
                        > > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Date: 4/4/2006 12:20:37 PM
                        > > Subject: [PPLetterpress] web design
                        > >
                        > > Hi, does anyone have a recommendation for a reasonable priced web page
                        > > designer? I really don't need someone to design the layout of the
                        > > pages but I need them to actually build the pages on the web. Any
                        > > advice would be appreciated. Thanks!
                        >
                      • Paul Romaine
                        With HTML, and with websites, I ve come to believe that cleaner is better. It s easier to maintain pages without loads of easily out-dated scripts and
                        Message 11 of 19 , Apr 5, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          With HTML, and with websites, I've come to believe that cleaner is
                          better. It's easier to maintain pages without loads of easily
                          out-dated scripts and semi-useful doo-dads that add minimally to
                          usability. Just look at image maps: in the mid-1990s they were the
                          rage yet they usually added little to user information and frequently
                          caused problems for people with low bandwidth. Then there were (are)
                          those clever mouseover scripts that were (are) easy to break (often
                          rendering a page unreadable), and added little to the Web experience.
                          If it doesn't make life better for yourself and your visitors, it's
                          not worthwhile. If it doesn't make your web authoring easier, it's
                          fritterware (Jim Seymour's term in PC Magazine, ca. 1998). I don't
                          necessarily do all the good practices myself, but I'm planning to.
                          (Like Augustine, I say, 'I will repent, Lord, but just a little bit
                          later.')

                          Unrelated, but of use: The World Wide Web Consortium's (W3C)
                          Guidelines on Web Page Content accessibility
                          http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/WAI-WEBCONTENT-19990505/ is one of the most
                          important documents to come along in a long time. Ostensibly about
                          making content available to people with disabilities, these
                          recommendations go far beyond that. See esp the checklist.

                          Anything by Jakob Neilsen is worthwhile. See esp his article (dated
                          but still relevant) on making websites for people with disabilities:
                          http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990613.html His website is www.useit.com

                          -Paul

                          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <bieler@...> wrote:
                          > There were a couple of recent notices in Microsoft Typography about
                          > purposeful bad (simple) web design and how it is more effective. I'd
                          > tend to agree, and apparently so would eBay, Yahoo, flickr, etc.
                          >
                          > Here's one of the links
                          >
                          > http://arts.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1729662,00.html
                          >
                          > The argument is that folks are searching for information, the faster
                          > and easier it is to access the better. Every time I go to a "graphic
                          > design" site and have to sit there and watch the thing mysteriously
                          > unwind or try to guess which icon or whatever I'm supposed to click on
                          > to be illuminated, basically, I'm out of there. I'm looking for
                          > information; I don't care how clever the websmaster is. I can find my
                          > entertainment elsewhere.
                        • Jason Dewinetz
                          Gerald, It s bad design, not good design, that makes an impression. Yes, but what sort of impression? Would the same argument hold up for book work? Perhaps,
                          Message 12 of 19 , Apr 5, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Gerald,

                            "It's bad design, not good design, that makes an impression."

                            Yes, but what sort of impression?


                            Would the same argument hold up for book work? Perhaps, but, once again, is
                            the goal to make "an impression" or to fascilitate the reader's experience?
                            Just as on the web, the world is full of bad print design, from magazines
                            with hidden TOCs and ridiculous typography to books with completely
                            inadequate margins, sloppy word-spacing and solid leading set in a
                            completely inappropriate type. All of this makes an impression, and all of
                            it is bad design and difficult to read.

                            Good design on the web doesn't mean inaccessable, any more than it does in
                            print work, and both require serious restraint guided by a responsibility to
                            the reader before anything else. I agree that many "graphic design" sites
                            break all kinds of rules, often making the user's experience problematic,
                            but so too has much book work in the name of experimentation and progress.
                            Such sites aren't necessarily meant for continuous reading or even simple
                            information gathering, they are for showcasing graphic design.

                            What I was refering to, however, were specifically sites representing
                            publishers and book-ish things, and what is good for the goose (book work)
                            should also be important to the gander: clean, well designed content in a
                            format that is pleasing to look at.

                            The headline and lead in the article you linked to miss the point entirely,
                            as far as I'm concerned. Ugly doesn't mean easier to read or more
                            accessible. At best it might mean not cluttered with gimmicks and Flash. But
                            remove the gimmicks and Flash and web developers are not left with "ugly,"
                            they're left with the same basic principles of book work; it's just that
                            very few people have the skill or experience to know how to blend
                            accessibility, functionality, with clean layout & typography.

                            Again, the word you used is in my top three hit-list in the electronic
                            publishing class I teach at the University of Victoria: I tell the students
                            every year that marks will be deducted from their projects if I'm forced
                            into using any of these three terms: "clever," "cute," or "cliched." All
                            three are signs of inexperience, and all three insult the user/reader. The
                            phrase I do want to use for their projects, and anything I read on the web
                            or in a book, is "understated yet effective."

                            "Bad" design is neither of those things. Bad design just "doesn't work and
                            offends the eye."


                            Jason


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Gerald Lange
                            To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 1:34 AM
                            Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: web design


                            Jason

                            There were a couple of recent notices in Microsoft Typography about
                            purposeful bad (simple) web design and how it is more effective. I'd
                            tend to agree, and apparently so would eBay, Yahoo, flickr, etc.

                            Here's one of the links

                            http://arts.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1729662,00.html

                            The argument is that folks are searching for information, the faster
                            and easier it is to access the better. Every time I go to a "graphic
                            design" site and have to sit there and watch the thing mysteriously
                            unwind or try to guess which icon or whatever I'm supposed to click on
                            to be illuminated, basically, I'm out of there. I'm looking for
                            information; I don't care how clever the websmaster is. I can find my
                            entertainment elsewhere.

                            Gerald




                            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Dewinetz" <jason@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I get a kick out of these applications; as though "web" development
                            was an
                            > "easy" thing to do like a "pro."
                            >
                            > Dreamweaver (was Macromedia, now Adobe) is, of course, the industry
                            standard
                            > web development tool, but it can be a bit daunting for new users.
                            The point,
                            > of course, is that it's unreasonable to think that just because you
                            might
                            > know a few HTML tags you should go ahead and attempt to build a site
                            that
                            > will meet even the simplest of technical or aesthetic standards. I'm
                            biased,
                            > of course, as both a book and web designer, but it really is
                            disappointing
                            > how many publishers and organizations are willing to have a very poorly
                            > designed and coded site represent them on the internet. That bright
                            orange
                            > tie with the mustard all over it says a lot about the guy wearing
                            it, and so
                            > does a site plagued by a distracting background, cheesy buttons, sloppy
                            > typography and default link styles.
                            >
                            > Don't get me wrong, I know that many publishers/organizations don't
                            even
                            > have sufficient budgets to afford decent design for their books and
                            other
                            > projects, let alone for their web site, but, like anything, you get
                            what you
                            > pay for in this arena, as in any other. Cheap & "easy" web
                            applications will
                            > help you to produce cheap and flaky web sites, or a college kid at
                            $10/hr
                            > can do the same.
                            >
                            > Bethany, good for you for seeking some outside help, you'll be glad
                            you did.
                            > I'm sure there are a handful of good design shops in your area, and
                            working
                            > with someone local will make your life much easier when it comes to
                            updates
                            > & maintenance.
                            >
                            >
                            > Jason Dewinetz
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Lance Williams
                            > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 10:16 AM
                            > Subject: RE: [PPLetterpress] web design
                            >
                            >
                            > I use WebEasy Pro, version 6.0. Available from CompUSA for $50 or
                            so....
                            > It's a fairly complete package, and fairly intuitive... I use it
                            for the
                            > Letterpress Printers of the World website as well as our business
                            website
                            > and a few others I maintain.....
                            >
                            > - Lance Williams
                            > Williams Stationery Co.
                            > Camden, New York
                            > APA #785
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > > [Original Message]
                            > > From: thistleberry_press <etsu4@...>
                            > > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Date: 4/4/2006 12:20:37 PM
                            > > Subject: [PPLetterpress] web design
                            > >
                            > > Hi, does anyone have a recommendation for a reasonable priced web page
                            > > designer? I really don't need someone to design the layout of the
                            > > pages but I need them to actually build the pages on the web. Any
                            > > advice would be appreciated. Thanks!
                            >






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                          • Peter Fraterdeus
                            (fyi http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PPLetterpress/ (Plone context in the PS (Marketing & design context midway... Ah, ok. Since the thread continues... I ll
                            Message 13 of 19 , Apr 5, 2006
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                              (fyi http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PPLetterpress/
                              (Plone context in the PS
                              (Marketing & design context midway...

                              Ah, ok.
                              Since the thread continues... I'll toss my two bits in....

                              -.

                              :-)

                              I taught a semester in the Industrial Design Dept of the Architectural Univ of Venezia in Treviso (about 30 km N of Venice, Italy)[1] a few years ago (Oct 01-Jan 02). The title was "Information Design for the WWW" (more or less).

                              Typography, in my view, IS information design, and without a clear understanding of the semantic structure of what is to be communicated, one is without a mooring in the Semiotic Sea.

                              My students, mostly 'industrial designers' (ie, for Italian industry: lighting, shoes, clothing, autos) were given a text (I think I used something from http://gutenberg.org -- Aesop's Fables, if I recall ) without any 'formatting' other than the line spacing between sections (a chapter head would have had more lines before and after than a paragraph, for instance)

                              The task was to analyze the semantic structure and describe it in an XML Document Type Definition, or an SQL database schema.

                              Advanced students could use a regular expression engine to further format the text into XML based on the logical structure, <fable><title /><body></body><moral></moral></fable>, other applications might import the structured content into a database.

                              I had a guest lecturer from an online magazine who described his use of XSLT (Extensible Stylesheet Language for Transformations) to take XML structured content and reshape its presentation (ie the typographic and visual structuring of the page) automatically, depending on the end user's requirements.

                              The XML (or db) can then be transformed into HTML for web presentation with a related CSS style sheet.
                              (or sent to M&H for output as Monotype, or even imported into InDesign for PDF > PPLetterpress pages! There, back on topic!)

                              The point to the above being: good communication depends on clear presentation ('good design'), which starts with clear language -- organized, structured, and presented in a logical hierarchy.

                              This, as I pointed out to my Gucci [2] and Maserati [3] designers (they hoped!), is a concept which goes all the way back to Alcuin (8th C) (qv), Charlemagne's tutor and master scribe, who is credited with the development of the Carolingian minuscule, and the use of that script, along with a small number of others in a 'hierarchy of scripts'. [4] That is, that different scripts (fonts, for us today) had different semantic or structural application, which was maintained throughout the document -- and in fact, throughout the Empire (at least for a little while!)

                              Alcuin, of course, should be the patron saint of Information Designers :-) (and maybe Font Designers too!)

                              Information Design and Typography are for communication with the mind. : Linear, sequential, with words, to be read, rational

                              Graphic Design is for communication with the gut. : Planar, simultaneous, with images, to be felt, emotional

                              Both have their important uses, and obviously, are rarely used in isolation. (and, of course, in a post-literate culture, image and icon are often far better drivers of consumption, thus consumer markets tend toward non-rational communication... but THAT is a discussion for some other forum!)

                              To my view, the web, particularly in terms of its unique potentials (not as a simulation of TV) is highly sequential. But the page, nonetheless, is planar and simultaneous. Information Design is the art of leading the mind sequentially through a planar, or even multidimensional, space. Typography is ID in a visual medium.

                              Ergo, I must agree on the basis of the preceding argument with Paul's comment, which, at least in my mind encapsulates the above:

                              At 11:56 AM +0000 5 04 06, Paul Romaine wrote (in part):
                              >With HTML, and with websites, I've come to believe that cleaner is better.

                              Bravo, bravo!

                              Of course, there are artists, er, engineers, who see the web almost entirely as non-verbal! (http://mrl.nyu.edu/~philipd/) (whence http://mrl.nyu.edu/~jhan/ftirtouch/)

                              Ciao!
                              peter

                              [1] http://www.iuav.it/
                              [2] http://www.otticalook.com/mst_otticalook/
                              [3] http://www1.maseratiamerica.com/MaseratiMonthly/MM_200602.aspx
                              [4] http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/ARTH212/Carolingian_Culture/Caroline1.html
                              see Carolingian Scripts examples 3/4 of the way down the page (too bad they didn't use a structural page architecture! The whole page is a nice overview of the evolution of this high-point in calligraphic history.

                              PS, all of these arguments are what makes Plone (http://plone.org) so attractive to me as a web content management engine. (Alexander Limi of http://plonesolutions.com, principle UI designer)

                              Plone is entirely semantic in its approach to content: presentation is 100% separated from the content (at least until the end-user starts messing around with it ;-) The 'out of the box' Plone installation is an masterpiece of w3.org (and other standards) compliance with a visual coherence that makes it instantly elegant. Everything about a site's presentation is controlled through CSS -- and the underlaying architecture is such that simply reading the style sheets is a master class in semantic web design. (I won't go into the other substantial technology benefits here!)

                              One effect of content-as-data is the dynamic navigation on such sites, created on the fly as new content and folders are created by the end-user/author. This implies pretty strongly that the nav is text based, not a bunch of gif buttons with a "fancy font". Text links can be given "a:hover" styles which allow the 'rollover' behavior (generally just a change of color) previously associated with swapping image sources.
                              Much cleaner, easier to code AND simple for the search engines to parse meaningfully. (and in fact this is one of the most practical advantages to semantic web design).

                              As mentioned previously, Microsoft Typography's more-or-less ubiquitous* web fonts (Georgia, Verdana (both designs by the great Matthew Carter), Trebuchet (by Vincent Connare)) are great 'first choices'. (here's a recent site with Trebuchet : http://www.katefriedman.com -- my sister Kate's paintings) If you don't have the font installed, it will probably use the default sans -- please let me know if you run into issues! Just launched over the weekend... Not a plone site, this is php/mysql)

                              Regarding tool sets, I have found GoLive CS2's stylesheet development environment very productive (whence GoLive, now that Adobe owns DW? We'll see). Much of my development has little to do with producing pages, since the end-user-author will do that (often right through the web). Rather, I am designing the templates and methods and applications which will be available to the author/editor/publisher in the content creation workflow and thence, once published, to the anonymous viewer on the web.

                              p

                              * unfortunately, while MS Typography were giving these fonts away to all comers, MS Corporate decided that this was against MS policy, particularly as it allowed the Linux/Open Source folks to encourage their users to acquire MS IP and use it on various Windows killer OSen. Thus they are no longer available for free download. If one knew somebody with WinXP or a Mac that had IE5, one could probably acquire the web fonts...

                              [Nice. A footnote to a postscript ;-)]

                              --
                              AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                              ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!

                              Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
                              Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography

                              Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com
                            • Peter Fraterdeus
                              ... I think this was meant to make an ironic impression. (When you leave the irony on the shirt for too long?) Or else, of course, the impression of hitting
                              Message 14 of 19 , Apr 5, 2006
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                                >Gerald,
                                >
                                >"It's bad design, not good design, that makes an impression."
                                >
                                >Yes, but what sort of impression?

                                I think this was meant to make an ironic impression.
                                (When you leave the irony on the shirt for too long?)

                                Or else, of course, the impression of hitting your head on a poorly designed cabinet...

                                Best
                                Peter

                                --
                                AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                                ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!

                                Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
                                Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography

                                Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com
                              • Gerald Lange
                                Hi Jason I don t disagree with anything you have said here. My first experience with the net was, as Lys similarly pointed out in her own posting, when
                                Message 15 of 19 , Apr 5, 2006
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                                  Hi Jason

                                  I don't disagree with anything you have said here. My first experience
                                  with the net was, as Lys similarly pointed out in her own posting,
                                  when "text-based and command-line driven" was all there was. I was an
                                  online information retrieval specialist for a time back in the
                                  mid-1970s. The visual imagery of the icon-based "web" was a welcomed
                                  relief.

                                  But as Peter pointed out it all really is information design. This
                                  applies, as you suggest, to fine press books as well. I suspect one
                                  could, and should, go back to Beatrice Warde regarding the rationale
                                  for all of this. No one cut through the crap and essentially saw it
                                  all for what it really is than she. Especially in her later writings
                                  on the legibility of text faces.

                                  The clueless "innovative" bookmaker printers, the wedding invitation
                                  slam-bangers, the clever web designers, etc, all will come and go.
                                  There is fickle fashion and then there is what has proven to work and
                                  remain valid beyond the style of the times.

                                  The direction of web based design, however, hardly seems driven by
                                  graphic designers themselves, but rather the need for more valid
                                  imagery and speedier and more reliable transmission. This is more a
                                  technological issue than it is a design issue. The latter is more
                                  after the fact. Even though there seems to be more and more
                                  accessibility and ability to participate, in reality, the controls in
                                  regard to software are far less user based than they were previously.
                                  If one is "designing" for the web, it is at a very superficial level
                                  compared to what is offered and restricted by the technology.

                                  Gerald
                                  http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Dewinetz" <jason@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Gerald,
                                  >
                                  > "It's bad design, not good design, that makes an impression."
                                  >
                                  > Yes, but what sort of impression?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Would the same argument hold up for book work? Perhaps, but, once
                                  again, is
                                  > the goal to make "an impression" or to fascilitate the reader's
                                  experience?
                                  > Just as on the web, the world is full of bad print design, from
                                  magazines
                                  > with hidden TOCs and ridiculous typography to books with completely
                                  > inadequate margins, sloppy word-spacing and solid leading set in a
                                  > completely inappropriate type. All of this makes an impression, and
                                  all of
                                  > it is bad design and difficult to read.
                                  >
                                  > Good design on the web doesn't mean inaccessable, any more than it
                                  does in
                                  > print work, and both require serious restraint guided by a
                                  responsibility to
                                  > the reader before anything else. I agree that many "graphic design"
                                  sites
                                  > break all kinds of rules, often making the user's experience
                                  problematic,
                                  > but so too has much book work in the name of experimentation and
                                  progress.
                                  > Such sites aren't necessarily meant for continuous reading or even
                                  simple
                                  > information gathering, they are for showcasing graphic design.
                                  >
                                  > What I was refering to, however, were specifically sites representing
                                  > publishers and book-ish things, and what is good for the goose (book
                                  work)
                                  > should also be important to the gander: clean, well designed content
                                  in a
                                  > format that is pleasing to look at.
                                  >
                                  > The headline and lead in the article you linked to miss the point
                                  entirely,
                                  > as far as I'm concerned. Ugly doesn't mean easier to read or more
                                  > accessible. At best it might mean not cluttered with gimmicks and
                                  Flash. But
                                  > remove the gimmicks and Flash and web developers are not left with
                                  "ugly,"
                                  > they're left with the same basic principles of book work; it's just
                                  that
                                  > very few people have the skill or experience to know how to blend
                                  > accessibility, functionality, with clean layout & typography.
                                  >
                                  > Again, the word you used is in my top three hit-list in the electronic
                                  > publishing class I teach at the University of Victoria: I tell the
                                  students
                                  > every year that marks will be deducted from their projects if I'm
                                  forced
                                  > into using any of these three terms: "clever," "cute," or "cliched."
                                  All
                                  > three are signs of inexperience, and all three insult the
                                  user/reader. The
                                  > phrase I do want to use for their projects, and anything I read on
                                  the web
                                  > or in a book, is "understated yet effective."
                                  >
                                  > "Bad" design is neither of those things. Bad design just "doesn't
                                  work and
                                  > offends the eye."
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Jason
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Gerald Lange
                                  > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 1:34 AM
                                  > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: web design
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Jason
                                  >
                                  > There were a couple of recent notices in Microsoft Typography about
                                  > purposeful bad (simple) web design and how it is more effective. I'd
                                  > tend to agree, and apparently so would eBay, Yahoo, flickr, etc.
                                  >
                                  > Here's one of the links
                                  >
                                  > http://arts.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1729662,00.html
                                  >
                                  > The argument is that folks are searching for information, the faster
                                  > and easier it is to access the better. Every time I go to a "graphic
                                  > design" site and have to sit there and watch the thing mysteriously
                                  > unwind or try to guess which icon or whatever I'm supposed to click on
                                  > to be illuminated, basically, I'm out of there. I'm looking for
                                  > information; I don't care how clever the websmaster is. I can find my
                                  > entertainment elsewhere.
                                  >
                                  > Gerald
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Dewinetz" <jason@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I get a kick out of these applications; as though "web" development
                                  > was an
                                  > > "easy" thing to do like a "pro."
                                  > >
                                  > > Dreamweaver (was Macromedia, now Adobe) is, of course, the industry
                                  > standard
                                  > > web development tool, but it can be a bit daunting for new users.
                                  > The point,
                                  > > of course, is that it's unreasonable to think that just because you
                                  > might
                                  > > know a few HTML tags you should go ahead and attempt to build a site
                                  > that
                                  > > will meet even the simplest of technical or aesthetic standards. I'm
                                  > biased,
                                  > > of course, as both a book and web designer, but it really is
                                  > disappointing
                                  > > how many publishers and organizations are willing to have a very
                                  poorly
                                  > > designed and coded site represent them on the internet. That bright
                                  > orange
                                  > > tie with the mustard all over it says a lot about the guy wearing
                                  > it, and so
                                  > > does a site plagued by a distracting background, cheesy buttons,
                                  sloppy
                                  > > typography and default link styles.
                                  > >
                                  > > Don't get me wrong, I know that many publishers/organizations don't
                                  > even
                                  > > have sufficient budgets to afford decent design for their books and
                                  > other
                                  > > projects, let alone for their web site, but, like anything, you get
                                  > what you
                                  > > pay for in this arena, as in any other. Cheap & "easy" web
                                  > applications will
                                  > > help you to produce cheap and flaky web sites, or a college kid at
                                  > $10/hr
                                  > > can do the same.
                                  > >
                                  > > Bethany, good for you for seeking some outside help, you'll be glad
                                  > you did.
                                  > > I'm sure there are a handful of good design shops in your area, and
                                  > working
                                  > > with someone local will make your life much easier when it comes to
                                  > updates
                                  > > & maintenance.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Jason Dewinetz
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > From: Lance Williams
                                  > > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 10:16 AM
                                  > > Subject: RE: [PPLetterpress] web design
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > I use WebEasy Pro, version 6.0. Available from CompUSA for $50 or
                                  > so....
                                  > > It's a fairly complete package, and fairly intuitive... I use it
                                  > for the
                                  > > Letterpress Printers of the World website as well as our business
                                  > website
                                  > > and a few others I maintain.....
                                  > >
                                  > > - Lance Williams
                                  > > Williams Stationery Co.
                                  > > Camden, New York
                                  > > APA #785
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > > [Original Message]
                                  > > > From: thistleberry_press <etsu4@>
                                  > > > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > > Date: 4/4/2006 12:20:37 PM
                                  > > > Subject: [PPLetterpress] web design
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Hi, does anyone have a recommendation for a reasonable priced
                                  web page
                                  > > > designer? I really don't need someone to design the layout of the
                                  > > > pages but I need them to actually build the pages on the web. Any
                                  > > > advice would be appreciated. Thanks!
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > SPONSORED LINKS Book cover design Design book Graphic design book
                                  > Contemporary book Book printing
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                  >
                                • Charles D. Jones
                                  Hello to all, I hope your holidays have been merry and refreshing. We have the website up for the press in test mode and so I thought you might be interested
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Dec 28, 2006
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                                    Hello to all,

                                    I hope your holidays have been merry and refreshing.
                                    We have the website up for the press in test mode and so I thought you
                                    might be interested in taking a look.
                                    http://lananacreekpress.com/test/
                                    (feel free to make comments!)

                                    My work, apart from book art, is at:
                                    http://homepage.mac.com/charlesd.jones/PhotoAlbum2.html
                                    for the past 5 years or so I have been working on a series of large
                                    format woodcuts of Artists, writers and musicians who have inspired me.
                                    Leonard Baskin's death set the whole thing off and so far each work
                                    leads to another. Not pictured Sylvia Plath and Virginia Wolfe, the
                                    latest additions the pantheon.

                                    Cheers,

                                    Charlie Jones
                                    >
                                    >
                                    LaNana Creek Press
                                    Nacogdoches, Texas
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