Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [PPLetterpress] Re:Pagemaker ligatures

Expand Messages
  • Gerald Lange
    David and George Actually, as I recall now, you could run any glyph from any font through the story editor. And do the global replace. Gerald Lange
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 2, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      David and George

      Actually, as I recall now, you could run any glyph from any font through
      the story editor. And do the global replace.

      Gerald Lange
      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

      David Michael McNamara wrote:

      >I'm pretty sure it's not an option in PageMaker 6.5, so perhaps not in 7.0. As I mentioned previously, it seems to have been added to Quark at 7.0 and picked up by Adobe starting with InDesign.
      >__
      >
      >David
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: George Chapman
      > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 11:07 PM
      > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re:Pagemaker ligatures
      >
      >
      > As far as I can tell, there are no options regarding ligatures in Pagemaker
      > 7.0, which I believe is the latest and last version.
      > Does anyone know better?
      > George Chapman
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Peter Fraterdeus
      By the way, the big advantage in the way that InDesign does ligs is that they are contextual replacements, (ala Apple s ATSUI or OpenType tables). That is,
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 2, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        By the way, the big advantage in the way that
        InDesign does ligs is that they are contextual
        replacements, (ala Apple's ATSUI or OpenType
        tables). That is, even though the Þ is set in the
        line, the cursor will still stop BETWEEN the f
        and the i. If you backspace over the i, the f
        remains.
        Of course, this means that spell-checking also
        works as desired, and there is no need to do
        global replacement of glyph pairs....

        BTW Adobe uses their own line-layout algorithms,
        and this works with any font that has ligatures,
        OT tables not required.

        Geez, just what you'd have expected from computers decades ago....

        The real advantage is that the typographically
        clueless, but otherwise skilled, typist is not
        burdened at all by this, and can proceed with
        data entry straight from the ms. Of course, it's
        another reason that the guilty publishers should
        be publicly humiliated for their utter disdain
        for basic decency (and that so many of the good
        ones are switching to InDesign...)

        P.
        --
        AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
        ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!

        Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
        Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography

        Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com
      • Jason Dewinetz
        [I m touching the tip of my nose here. Right-on, Peter, you ve hit it right-on. ] We ve talked about this before on this forum but it often falls into:
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 2, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          [I'm touching the tip of my nose here. "Right-on, Peter, you've hit it
          right-on."]

          We've talked about this before on this forum but it often falls into:
          the-software-does-the-work-for-you vs.
          do-you-have-any-idea-WHY-the-software-is-doing-it, or,
          is-it-appropriate-for-the-software-to-do-it-for-you, or,
          how-will-the-newcomer-learn-about-typography-if-the-software-does-the-work-for-them?

          Peter makes a very good point that InD's c-lig substitutions are much more
          than simple glyph-swaps (as we all had to do not long ago if we wanted to
          use ligs): they are functional replacements that retain spelling protocol.
          While I've admitted many times that I'm a relative newcomer to the
          typographic arena, this is one of a wide variety of reasons I don't
          understand the industry's clinging to Quark. Not only did Quark sit back and
          yawn while users suggested, requested, complained about, and finally
          screamed for improvements, but their ridiculous fumble when OSX came out
          speaks volumes and volumes (without ligs) about their interest in getting
          things right. Granted, it made Adobe's job pretty easy: "address
          user-requests and the market-share is yours." Add simple integration with
          Photoshop, Illustrator & Acrobat and, well, end of story. But -- and this is
          the crazy part -- it isn't the end of the story: it's amazing how many folks
          out there are still bunkered down with their copy of Quark 4 clutched to
          their chests mumbling no, no, it's mine, it's MINE.

          Anyway, my point was simply to agree with Peter about the simple InD's
          protocol for ligs. I'm not worried so much about "ease of use," but I'm
          grateful for correct implementation of typographically sound functionality.

          Jason



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Peter Fraterdeus
          To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 10:11 PM
          Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re:Pagemaker ligatures


          By the way, the big advantage in the way that
          InDesign does ligs is that they are contextual
          replacements, (ala Apple's ATSUI or OpenType
          tables). That is, even though the Þ is set in the
          line, the cursor will still stop BETWEEN the f
          and the i. If you backspace over the i, the f
          remains.
          Of course, this means that spell-checking also
          works as desired, and there is no need to do
          global replacement of glyph pairs....

          BTW Adobe uses their own line-layout algorithms,
          and this works with any font that has ligatures,
          OT tables not required.

          Geez, just what you'd have expected from computers decades ago....

          The real advantage is that the typographically
          clueless, but otherwise skilled, typist is not
          burdened at all by this, and can proceed with
          data entry straight from the ms. Of course, it's
          another reason that the guilty publishers should
          be publicly humiliated for their utter disdain
          for basic decency (and that so many of the good
          ones are switching to InDesign...)

          P.
          --
          AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
          ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!

          Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
          Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography

          Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com



          YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

          Visit your group "PPLetterpress" on the web.

          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          PPLetterpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • parallel_imp
          ... -and- ... in 7.0. As I mentioned previously, it seems to have been added to Quark ... f-ligatures are available in Quark XPress 3.32 and 4.1 (the
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 3, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "David Michael McNamara"
            <david@s...> wrote:
            >
            > Older versions of Quark, I believe, didn't have automatic ligatures,
            > and I think the same goes for PageMaker.
            -and-
            > I'm pretty sure it's not an option in PageMaker 6.5, so perhaps not
            in > 7.0. As I mentioned previously, it seems to have been added to Quark
            > at 7.0 and picked up by Adobe starting with InDesign.

            f-ligatures are available in Quark XPress 3.32 and 4.1 (the versions I
            use, on the Mac) and are controlled through preferences > typographic.
            (Having said that, it hasn't always worked for me, and I may have to
            use find/replace.)
            Are you talking about something besides f- and ff-ligs when
            referring to "automatic ligatures?" Or about the Windows versions?

            Eric Holub, SF
          • Carole Aldrich
            Hi all I used automatic ligatures way back in Quark 3.3. I don t know about Pagemaker, but it definitely is a feature of InDesign.
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 3, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi all
              I used automatic ligatures way back in Quark 3.3. I don't know about
              Pagemaker, but it definitely is a feature of InDesign.
            • Roland Reuß
              Setting type for a German public, the rules for setting ligatures are much more complicated. We own licenses for Indesign and for Quark, but I have to control
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 3, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Setting type for a German public, the rules for setting
                ligatures are much more complicated. We own licenses for
                Indesign and for Quark, but I have to control everything
                manually as there is no possibility of a 'global replace'.
                To use an automatic replacement indeed would make
                everything worse than having none. So in that respect it
                doesn't matter whether you use Quark or Indesign.

                I don't know how the rules for setting ligatures in latin
                languages are, but maybe they will have problems too. In
                German for example you cannot chose a ligature in a
                compositum like "Hanf-industrie". IOW: To use ligatures is
                not independent from semantics and hyphenation.

                In my personal opinion (heresy) I find it not a definite
                must to have ligatures at all -- if the fonts are made
                carefully and avoid collisions by design, there's no
                obligation. For me it makes no sense to use a Stempel
                Garamond (which is one of the most used typefaces over
                here) with its crippled standard f -- cut only to avoid the
                collision with the i -- and to use nevertheless the
                fi-ligature. Why should you do this? Pro decorum? To show
                that you know to handle ligatures in your font?

                In the list of typographic failures the use, abuse or
                not-use of ligatures ranges near the bottom. I know (and
                own) a lot of awful designed books with correct ligatures.
                I would gratefully return the ligatures if the spacing and
                word-distance would be correct.

                Roland

                PS: I understand this is all OT, but nevertheless it's an
                interesting subject.

                --
                TOFU, oder: die Tücken der e-mail
                <http://www.textkritik.de/schriftundcharakter/sundc008tofu.htm>
              • John Cornelisse
                ... Roland, How about the rules of ligatures in German, before or after the new spelling ? Best wishes John Cornelisse Letter-press & Typefounding,
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 3, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  At 20:54 3-1-06, you wrote:
                  >Setting type for a German public, the rules for setting
                  >ligatures are much more complicated. We own licenses for
                  >Indesign and for Quark, but I have to control everything
                  >manually as there is no possibility of a 'global replace'.
                  >To use an automatic replacement indeed would make
                  >everything worse than having none. So in that respect it
                  >doesn't matter whether you use Quark or Indesign.
                  Roland,

                  How about the rules of ligatures in German, before or after the new spelling ?

                  Best wishes

                  John Cornelisse




                  Letter-press & Typefounding, Monotype-composition

                  Vaartstraat 23
                  4553 AN Philippine
                  (Zeeuws Vlaanderen)
                  The Netherlands

                  + 31 - (0) 115 - 491184
                  email: enkidu@...

                  So she spoke to him and her word found favour,
                  he knew by instinct, he should seek a friend.


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Roland Reuß
                  John asked ... The rules (the plural is multivalent here) are only orthographic, so prima vista there should only be a change if hyphenation is involved. But
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 3, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    John asked

                    > How about the rules of ligatures in German, before or
                    > after the new spelling ?

                    The rules (the plural is multivalent here) are only
                    orthographic, so prima vista there should only be a change
                    if hyphenation is involved. But that's an abyss ...

                    Roland

                    --
                    TOFU, oder: die Tücken der e-mail
                    <http://www.textkritik.de/schriftundcharakter/sundc008tofu.htm>
                  • John Cornelisse
                    ... Hi Roland, Here in Holland there s a big movement for ignoring the latest alterations in the spelling. That new spelling is made very fast and ill
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      At 23:18 3-1-06, you wrote:
                      >John asked
                      >
                      > > How about the rules of ligatures in German, before or
                      > > after the new spelling ?
                      >
                      >The rules (the plural is multivalent here) are only
                      >orthographic, so prima vista there should only be a change
                      >if hyphenation is involved. But that's an abyss ...
                      >
                      >Roland

                      Hi Roland,

                      Here in Holland there's a big movement for ignoring the latest alterations in
                      the spelling. That 'new' spelling is made very fast and ill thought through.

                      So even some newspapers they do not follow it. They don't apply
                      anymore.....

                      How about Germany ? Are you willing to implement the "new rules"

                      Best wishes

                      John Cornelisse



                      Letter-press & Typefounding, Monotype-composition

                      Vaartstraat 23
                      4553 AN Philippine
                      (Zeeuws Vlaanderen)
                      The Netherlands

                      + 31 - (0) 115 - 491184
                      email: enkidu@...

                      So she spoke to him and her word found favour,
                      he knew by instinct, he should seek a friend.


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Roland Reuß
                      John, ... Exactly the same over here. It s a chaos coming out of prepotent bureaucracy. On the other hand people now finally learn that orthography is
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 5, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        John,

                        > Here in Holland there's a big movement for ignoring the
                        > latest alterations in the spelling. That 'new' spelling
                        > is made very fast and ill thought through.

                        > So even some newspapers they do not follow it. They don't
                        > apply anymore.....

                        Exactly the same over here. It's a chaos coming out of
                        prepotent bureaucracy. On the other hand people now finally
                        learn that orthography is arbitrary and not a gift of the
                        gods (or devils ;-) And that's a progress in any case.

                        > Are you willing to implement the "new rules"

                        In no case. For our journal we receive articles in different
                        spellings, so we have to 'reset' orthography from time to
                        time. I have to admit that it's not such a big job, mainly
                        the rules for sharp s and the spelling of composita
                        (together or disjunct) are really different. This last
                        issue will be drawn back soon by the responsible comittee.
                        To put it optimistically: I expect a liberalisation.

                        Best,
                        Roland

                        --
                        TOFU, oder: die Tücken der e-mail
                        <http://www.textkritik.de/schriftundcharakter/sundc008tofu.htm>
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.