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Re: [PPLetterpress] Re:Pagemaker ligatures

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  • David Michael McNamara
    I m pretty sure it s not an option in PageMaker 6.5, so perhaps not in 7.0. As I mentioned previously, it seems to have been added to Quark at 7.0 and picked
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 2, 2006
      I'm pretty sure it's not an option in PageMaker 6.5, so perhaps not in 7.0. As I mentioned previously, it seems to have been added to Quark at 7.0 and picked up by Adobe starting with InDesign.
      __

      David
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: George Chapman
      To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 11:07 PM
      Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re:Pagemaker ligatures


      As far as I can tell, there are no options regarding ligatures in Pagemaker
      7.0, which I believe is the latest and last version.
      Does anyone know better?
      George Chapman


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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    • Gerald Lange
      David and George Actually, as I recall now, you could run any glyph from any font through the story editor. And do the global replace. Gerald Lange
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 2, 2006
        David and George

        Actually, as I recall now, you could run any glyph from any font through
        the story editor. And do the global replace.

        Gerald Lange
        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

        David Michael McNamara wrote:

        >I'm pretty sure it's not an option in PageMaker 6.5, so perhaps not in 7.0. As I mentioned previously, it seems to have been added to Quark at 7.0 and picked up by Adobe starting with InDesign.
        >__
        >
        >David
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: George Chapman
        > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 11:07 PM
        > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re:Pagemaker ligatures
        >
        >
        > As far as I can tell, there are no options regarding ligatures in Pagemaker
        > 7.0, which I believe is the latest and last version.
        > Does anyone know better?
        > George Chapman
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Peter Fraterdeus
        By the way, the big advantage in the way that InDesign does ligs is that they are contextual replacements, (ala Apple s ATSUI or OpenType tables). That is,
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 2, 2006
          By the way, the big advantage in the way that
          InDesign does ligs is that they are contextual
          replacements, (ala Apple's ATSUI or OpenType
          tables). That is, even though the Þ is set in the
          line, the cursor will still stop BETWEEN the f
          and the i. If you backspace over the i, the f
          remains.
          Of course, this means that spell-checking also
          works as desired, and there is no need to do
          global replacement of glyph pairs....

          BTW Adobe uses their own line-layout algorithms,
          and this works with any font that has ligatures,
          OT tables not required.

          Geez, just what you'd have expected from computers decades ago....

          The real advantage is that the typographically
          clueless, but otherwise skilled, typist is not
          burdened at all by this, and can proceed with
          data entry straight from the ms. Of course, it's
          another reason that the guilty publishers should
          be publicly humiliated for their utter disdain
          for basic decency (and that so many of the good
          ones are switching to InDesign...)

          P.
          --
          AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
          ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!

          Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
          Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography

          Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com
        • Jason Dewinetz
          [I m touching the tip of my nose here. Right-on, Peter, you ve hit it right-on. ] We ve talked about this before on this forum but it often falls into:
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 2, 2006
            [I'm touching the tip of my nose here. "Right-on, Peter, you've hit it
            right-on."]

            We've talked about this before on this forum but it often falls into:
            the-software-does-the-work-for-you vs.
            do-you-have-any-idea-WHY-the-software-is-doing-it, or,
            is-it-appropriate-for-the-software-to-do-it-for-you, or,
            how-will-the-newcomer-learn-about-typography-if-the-software-does-the-work-for-them?

            Peter makes a very good point that InD's c-lig substitutions are much more
            than simple glyph-swaps (as we all had to do not long ago if we wanted to
            use ligs): they are functional replacements that retain spelling protocol.
            While I've admitted many times that I'm a relative newcomer to the
            typographic arena, this is one of a wide variety of reasons I don't
            understand the industry's clinging to Quark. Not only did Quark sit back and
            yawn while users suggested, requested, complained about, and finally
            screamed for improvements, but their ridiculous fumble when OSX came out
            speaks volumes and volumes (without ligs) about their interest in getting
            things right. Granted, it made Adobe's job pretty easy: "address
            user-requests and the market-share is yours." Add simple integration with
            Photoshop, Illustrator & Acrobat and, well, end of story. But -- and this is
            the crazy part -- it isn't the end of the story: it's amazing how many folks
            out there are still bunkered down with their copy of Quark 4 clutched to
            their chests mumbling no, no, it's mine, it's MINE.

            Anyway, my point was simply to agree with Peter about the simple InD's
            protocol for ligs. I'm not worried so much about "ease of use," but I'm
            grateful for correct implementation of typographically sound functionality.

            Jason



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Peter Fraterdeus
            To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 10:11 PM
            Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re:Pagemaker ligatures


            By the way, the big advantage in the way that
            InDesign does ligs is that they are contextual
            replacements, (ala Apple's ATSUI or OpenType
            tables). That is, even though the Þ is set in the
            line, the cursor will still stop BETWEEN the f
            and the i. If you backspace over the i, the f
            remains.
            Of course, this means that spell-checking also
            works as desired, and there is no need to do
            global replacement of glyph pairs....

            BTW Adobe uses their own line-layout algorithms,
            and this works with any font that has ligatures,
            OT tables not required.

            Geez, just what you'd have expected from computers decades ago....

            The real advantage is that the typographically
            clueless, but otherwise skilled, typist is not
            burdened at all by this, and can proceed with
            data entry straight from the ms. Of course, it's
            another reason that the guilty publishers should
            be publicly humiliated for their utter disdain
            for basic decency (and that so many of the good
            ones are switching to InDesign...)

            P.
            --
            AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
            ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!

            Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
            Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography

            Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com



            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

            Visit your group "PPLetterpress" on the web.

            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            PPLetterpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          • parallel_imp
            ... -and- ... in 7.0. As I mentioned previously, it seems to have been added to Quark ... f-ligatures are available in Quark XPress 3.32 and 4.1 (the
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 3, 2006
              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "David Michael McNamara"
              <david@s...> wrote:
              >
              > Older versions of Quark, I believe, didn't have automatic ligatures,
              > and I think the same goes for PageMaker.
              -and-
              > I'm pretty sure it's not an option in PageMaker 6.5, so perhaps not
              in > 7.0. As I mentioned previously, it seems to have been added to Quark
              > at 7.0 and picked up by Adobe starting with InDesign.

              f-ligatures are available in Quark XPress 3.32 and 4.1 (the versions I
              use, on the Mac) and are controlled through preferences > typographic.
              (Having said that, it hasn't always worked for me, and I may have to
              use find/replace.)
              Are you talking about something besides f- and ff-ligs when
              referring to "automatic ligatures?" Or about the Windows versions?

              Eric Holub, SF
            • Carole Aldrich
              Hi all I used automatic ligatures way back in Quark 3.3. I don t know about Pagemaker, but it definitely is a feature of InDesign.
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 3, 2006
                Hi all
                I used automatic ligatures way back in Quark 3.3. I don't know about
                Pagemaker, but it definitely is a feature of InDesign.
              • Roland Reuß
                Setting type for a German public, the rules for setting ligatures are much more complicated. We own licenses for Indesign and for Quark, but I have to control
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 3, 2006
                  Setting type for a German public, the rules for setting
                  ligatures are much more complicated. We own licenses for
                  Indesign and for Quark, but I have to control everything
                  manually as there is no possibility of a 'global replace'.
                  To use an automatic replacement indeed would make
                  everything worse than having none. So in that respect it
                  doesn't matter whether you use Quark or Indesign.

                  I don't know how the rules for setting ligatures in latin
                  languages are, but maybe they will have problems too. In
                  German for example you cannot chose a ligature in a
                  compositum like "Hanf-industrie". IOW: To use ligatures is
                  not independent from semantics and hyphenation.

                  In my personal opinion (heresy) I find it not a definite
                  must to have ligatures at all -- if the fonts are made
                  carefully and avoid collisions by design, there's no
                  obligation. For me it makes no sense to use a Stempel
                  Garamond (which is one of the most used typefaces over
                  here) with its crippled standard f -- cut only to avoid the
                  collision with the i -- and to use nevertheless the
                  fi-ligature. Why should you do this? Pro decorum? To show
                  that you know to handle ligatures in your font?

                  In the list of typographic failures the use, abuse or
                  not-use of ligatures ranges near the bottom. I know (and
                  own) a lot of awful designed books with correct ligatures.
                  I would gratefully return the ligatures if the spacing and
                  word-distance would be correct.

                  Roland

                  PS: I understand this is all OT, but nevertheless it's an
                  interesting subject.

                  --
                  TOFU, oder: die Tücken der e-mail
                  <http://www.textkritik.de/schriftundcharakter/sundc008tofu.htm>
                • John Cornelisse
                  ... Roland, How about the rules of ligatures in German, before or after the new spelling ? Best wishes John Cornelisse Letter-press & Typefounding,
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 3, 2006
                    At 20:54 3-1-06, you wrote:
                    >Setting type for a German public, the rules for setting
                    >ligatures are much more complicated. We own licenses for
                    >Indesign and for Quark, but I have to control everything
                    >manually as there is no possibility of a 'global replace'.
                    >To use an automatic replacement indeed would make
                    >everything worse than having none. So in that respect it
                    >doesn't matter whether you use Quark or Indesign.
                    Roland,

                    How about the rules of ligatures in German, before or after the new spelling ?

                    Best wishes

                    John Cornelisse




                    Letter-press & Typefounding, Monotype-composition

                    Vaartstraat 23
                    4553 AN Philippine
                    (Zeeuws Vlaanderen)
                    The Netherlands

                    + 31 - (0) 115 - 491184
                    email: enkidu@...

                    So she spoke to him and her word found favour,
                    he knew by instinct, he should seek a friend.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Roland Reuß
                    John asked ... The rules (the plural is multivalent here) are only orthographic, so prima vista there should only be a change if hyphenation is involved. But
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 3, 2006
                      John asked

                      > How about the rules of ligatures in German, before or
                      > after the new spelling ?

                      The rules (the plural is multivalent here) are only
                      orthographic, so prima vista there should only be a change
                      if hyphenation is involved. But that's an abyss ...

                      Roland

                      --
                      TOFU, oder: die Tücken der e-mail
                      <http://www.textkritik.de/schriftundcharakter/sundc008tofu.htm>
                    • John Cornelisse
                      ... Hi Roland, Here in Holland there s a big movement for ignoring the latest alterations in the spelling. That new spelling is made very fast and ill
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
                        At 23:18 3-1-06, you wrote:
                        >John asked
                        >
                        > > How about the rules of ligatures in German, before or
                        > > after the new spelling ?
                        >
                        >The rules (the plural is multivalent here) are only
                        >orthographic, so prima vista there should only be a change
                        >if hyphenation is involved. But that's an abyss ...
                        >
                        >Roland

                        Hi Roland,

                        Here in Holland there's a big movement for ignoring the latest alterations in
                        the spelling. That 'new' spelling is made very fast and ill thought through.

                        So even some newspapers they do not follow it. They don't apply
                        anymore.....

                        How about Germany ? Are you willing to implement the "new rules"

                        Best wishes

                        John Cornelisse



                        Letter-press & Typefounding, Monotype-composition

                        Vaartstraat 23
                        4553 AN Philippine
                        (Zeeuws Vlaanderen)
                        The Netherlands

                        + 31 - (0) 115 - 491184
                        email: enkidu@...

                        So she spoke to him and her word found favour,
                        he knew by instinct, he should seek a friend.


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Roland Reuß
                        John, ... Exactly the same over here. It s a chaos coming out of prepotent bureaucracy. On the other hand people now finally learn that orthography is
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 5, 2006
                          John,

                          > Here in Holland there's a big movement for ignoring the
                          > latest alterations in the spelling. That 'new' spelling
                          > is made very fast and ill thought through.

                          > So even some newspapers they do not follow it. They don't
                          > apply anymore.....

                          Exactly the same over here. It's a chaos coming out of
                          prepotent bureaucracy. On the other hand people now finally
                          learn that orthography is arbitrary and not a gift of the
                          gods (or devils ;-) And that's a progress in any case.

                          > Are you willing to implement the "new rules"

                          In no case. For our journal we receive articles in different
                          spellings, so we have to 'reset' orthography from time to
                          time. I have to admit that it's not such a big job, mainly
                          the rules for sharp s and the spelling of composita
                          (together or disjunct) are really different. This last
                          issue will be drawn back soon by the responsible comittee.
                          To put it optimistically: I expect a liberalisation.

                          Best,
                          Roland

                          --
                          TOFU, oder: die Tücken der e-mail
                          <http://www.textkritik.de/schriftundcharakter/sundc008tofu.htm>
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