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Re:Pagemaker ligatures

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  • Gerald Lange
    George With Pagemaker you can do a global replace of the basic key command ligatures (fi, fl) in the story editor. Worked, or works, well. But, yes, Adobe will
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 2, 2006
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      George

      With Pagemaker you can do a global replace of the basic key command
      ligatures (fi, fl) in the story editor. Worked, or works, well.

      But, yes, Adobe will not be upgrading PM to OS X (I think Adobe
      doesn't even offer it for sale anymore). So it is locked in time. One
      of my favorites. I still use it for dedicated publication of older
      files that I don't want to have to go through the hassle of converting
      in Indy.

      This is the Pagemaker list site:
      http://www.makingpages.org/pagemaker/

      I read it everyday!!!

      Gerald Lange
      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



      > As far as I can tell, there are no options regarding ligatures in
      Pagemaker
      > 7.0, which I believe is the latest and last version.
      > Does anyone know better?
      > George Chapman
      >
    • David Michael McNamara
      I m pretty sure it s not an option in PageMaker 6.5, so perhaps not in 7.0. As I mentioned previously, it seems to have been added to Quark at 7.0 and picked
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 2, 2006
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        I'm pretty sure it's not an option in PageMaker 6.5, so perhaps not in 7.0. As I mentioned previously, it seems to have been added to Quark at 7.0 and picked up by Adobe starting with InDesign.
        __

        David
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: George Chapman
        To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 11:07 PM
        Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re:Pagemaker ligatures


        As far as I can tell, there are no options regarding ligatures in Pagemaker
        7.0, which I believe is the latest and last version.
        Does anyone know better?
        George Chapman


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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      • Gerald Lange
        David and George Actually, as I recall now, you could run any glyph from any font through the story editor. And do the global replace. Gerald Lange
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 2, 2006
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          David and George

          Actually, as I recall now, you could run any glyph from any font through
          the story editor. And do the global replace.

          Gerald Lange
          http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

          David Michael McNamara wrote:

          >I'm pretty sure it's not an option in PageMaker 6.5, so perhaps not in 7.0. As I mentioned previously, it seems to have been added to Quark at 7.0 and picked up by Adobe starting with InDesign.
          >__
          >
          >David
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: George Chapman
          > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 11:07 PM
          > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re:Pagemaker ligatures
          >
          >
          > As far as I can tell, there are no options regarding ligatures in Pagemaker
          > 7.0, which I believe is the latest and last version.
          > Does anyone know better?
          > George Chapman
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Peter Fraterdeus
          By the way, the big advantage in the way that InDesign does ligs is that they are contextual replacements, (ala Apple s ATSUI or OpenType tables). That is,
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 2, 2006
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            By the way, the big advantage in the way that
            InDesign does ligs is that they are contextual
            replacements, (ala Apple's ATSUI or OpenType
            tables). That is, even though the Þ is set in the
            line, the cursor will still stop BETWEEN the f
            and the i. If you backspace over the i, the f
            remains.
            Of course, this means that spell-checking also
            works as desired, and there is no need to do
            global replacement of glyph pairs....

            BTW Adobe uses their own line-layout algorithms,
            and this works with any font that has ligatures,
            OT tables not required.

            Geez, just what you'd have expected from computers decades ago....

            The real advantage is that the typographically
            clueless, but otherwise skilled, typist is not
            burdened at all by this, and can proceed with
            data entry straight from the ms. Of course, it's
            another reason that the guilty publishers should
            be publicly humiliated for their utter disdain
            for basic decency (and that so many of the good
            ones are switching to InDesign...)

            P.
            --
            AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
            ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!

            Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
            Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography

            Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com
          • Jason Dewinetz
            [I m touching the tip of my nose here. Right-on, Peter, you ve hit it right-on. ] We ve talked about this before on this forum but it often falls into:
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 2, 2006
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              [I'm touching the tip of my nose here. "Right-on, Peter, you've hit it
              right-on."]

              We've talked about this before on this forum but it often falls into:
              the-software-does-the-work-for-you vs.
              do-you-have-any-idea-WHY-the-software-is-doing-it, or,
              is-it-appropriate-for-the-software-to-do-it-for-you, or,
              how-will-the-newcomer-learn-about-typography-if-the-software-does-the-work-for-them?

              Peter makes a very good point that InD's c-lig substitutions are much more
              than simple glyph-swaps (as we all had to do not long ago if we wanted to
              use ligs): they are functional replacements that retain spelling protocol.
              While I've admitted many times that I'm a relative newcomer to the
              typographic arena, this is one of a wide variety of reasons I don't
              understand the industry's clinging to Quark. Not only did Quark sit back and
              yawn while users suggested, requested, complained about, and finally
              screamed for improvements, but their ridiculous fumble when OSX came out
              speaks volumes and volumes (without ligs) about their interest in getting
              things right. Granted, it made Adobe's job pretty easy: "address
              user-requests and the market-share is yours." Add simple integration with
              Photoshop, Illustrator & Acrobat and, well, end of story. But -- and this is
              the crazy part -- it isn't the end of the story: it's amazing how many folks
              out there are still bunkered down with their copy of Quark 4 clutched to
              their chests mumbling no, no, it's mine, it's MINE.

              Anyway, my point was simply to agree with Peter about the simple InD's
              protocol for ligs. I'm not worried so much about "ease of use," but I'm
              grateful for correct implementation of typographically sound functionality.

              Jason



              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Peter Fraterdeus
              To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 10:11 PM
              Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re:Pagemaker ligatures


              By the way, the big advantage in the way that
              InDesign does ligs is that they are contextual
              replacements, (ala Apple's ATSUI or OpenType
              tables). That is, even though the Þ is set in the
              line, the cursor will still stop BETWEEN the f
              and the i. If you backspace over the i, the f
              remains.
              Of course, this means that spell-checking also
              works as desired, and there is no need to do
              global replacement of glyph pairs....

              BTW Adobe uses their own line-layout algorithms,
              and this works with any font that has ligatures,
              OT tables not required.

              Geez, just what you'd have expected from computers decades ago....

              The real advantage is that the typographically
              clueless, but otherwise skilled, typist is not
              burdened at all by this, and can proceed with
              data entry straight from the ms. Of course, it's
              another reason that the guilty publishers should
              be publicly humiliated for their utter disdain
              for basic decency (and that so many of the good
              ones are switching to InDesign...)

              P.
              --
              AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
              ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!

              Semiotx Inc. http://typeandmeaning.com
              Web Strategy Consulting Communication Design Typography

              Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com



              YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

              Visit your group "PPLetterpress" on the web.

              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              PPLetterpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            • parallel_imp
              ... -and- ... in 7.0. As I mentioned previously, it seems to have been added to Quark ... f-ligatures are available in Quark XPress 3.32 and 4.1 (the
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 3, 2006
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                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "David Michael McNamara"
                <david@s...> wrote:
                >
                > Older versions of Quark, I believe, didn't have automatic ligatures,
                > and I think the same goes for PageMaker.
                -and-
                > I'm pretty sure it's not an option in PageMaker 6.5, so perhaps not
                in > 7.0. As I mentioned previously, it seems to have been added to Quark
                > at 7.0 and picked up by Adobe starting with InDesign.

                f-ligatures are available in Quark XPress 3.32 and 4.1 (the versions I
                use, on the Mac) and are controlled through preferences > typographic.
                (Having said that, it hasn't always worked for me, and I may have to
                use find/replace.)
                Are you talking about something besides f- and ff-ligs when
                referring to "automatic ligatures?" Or about the Windows versions?

                Eric Holub, SF
              • Carole Aldrich
                Hi all I used automatic ligatures way back in Quark 3.3. I don t know about Pagemaker, but it definitely is a feature of InDesign.
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 3, 2006
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                  Hi all
                  I used automatic ligatures way back in Quark 3.3. I don't know about
                  Pagemaker, but it definitely is a feature of InDesign.
                • Roland Reuß
                  Setting type for a German public, the rules for setting ligatures are much more complicated. We own licenses for Indesign and for Quark, but I have to control
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 3, 2006
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                    Setting type for a German public, the rules for setting
                    ligatures are much more complicated. We own licenses for
                    Indesign and for Quark, but I have to control everything
                    manually as there is no possibility of a 'global replace'.
                    To use an automatic replacement indeed would make
                    everything worse than having none. So in that respect it
                    doesn't matter whether you use Quark or Indesign.

                    I don't know how the rules for setting ligatures in latin
                    languages are, but maybe they will have problems too. In
                    German for example you cannot chose a ligature in a
                    compositum like "Hanf-industrie". IOW: To use ligatures is
                    not independent from semantics and hyphenation.

                    In my personal opinion (heresy) I find it not a definite
                    must to have ligatures at all -- if the fonts are made
                    carefully and avoid collisions by design, there's no
                    obligation. For me it makes no sense to use a Stempel
                    Garamond (which is one of the most used typefaces over
                    here) with its crippled standard f -- cut only to avoid the
                    collision with the i -- and to use nevertheless the
                    fi-ligature. Why should you do this? Pro decorum? To show
                    that you know to handle ligatures in your font?

                    In the list of typographic failures the use, abuse or
                    not-use of ligatures ranges near the bottom. I know (and
                    own) a lot of awful designed books with correct ligatures.
                    I would gratefully return the ligatures if the spacing and
                    word-distance would be correct.

                    Roland

                    PS: I understand this is all OT, but nevertheless it's an
                    interesting subject.

                    --
                    TOFU, oder: die Tücken der e-mail
                    <http://www.textkritik.de/schriftundcharakter/sundc008tofu.htm>
                  • John Cornelisse
                    ... Roland, How about the rules of ligatures in German, before or after the new spelling ? Best wishes John Cornelisse Letter-press & Typefounding,
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 3, 2006
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                      At 20:54 3-1-06, you wrote:
                      >Setting type for a German public, the rules for setting
                      >ligatures are much more complicated. We own licenses for
                      >Indesign and for Quark, but I have to control everything
                      >manually as there is no possibility of a 'global replace'.
                      >To use an automatic replacement indeed would make
                      >everything worse than having none. So in that respect it
                      >doesn't matter whether you use Quark or Indesign.
                      Roland,

                      How about the rules of ligatures in German, before or after the new spelling ?

                      Best wishes

                      John Cornelisse




                      Letter-press & Typefounding, Monotype-composition

                      Vaartstraat 23
                      4553 AN Philippine
                      (Zeeuws Vlaanderen)
                      The Netherlands

                      + 31 - (0) 115 - 491184
                      email: enkidu@...

                      So she spoke to him and her word found favour,
                      he knew by instinct, he should seek a friend.


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Roland Reuß
                      John asked ... The rules (the plural is multivalent here) are only orthographic, so prima vista there should only be a change if hyphenation is involved. But
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 3, 2006
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                        John asked

                        > How about the rules of ligatures in German, before or
                        > after the new spelling ?

                        The rules (the plural is multivalent here) are only
                        orthographic, so prima vista there should only be a change
                        if hyphenation is involved. But that's an abyss ...

                        Roland

                        --
                        TOFU, oder: die Tücken der e-mail
                        <http://www.textkritik.de/schriftundcharakter/sundc008tofu.htm>
                      • John Cornelisse
                        ... Hi Roland, Here in Holland there s a big movement for ignoring the latest alterations in the spelling. That new spelling is made very fast and ill
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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                          At 23:18 3-1-06, you wrote:
                          >John asked
                          >
                          > > How about the rules of ligatures in German, before or
                          > > after the new spelling ?
                          >
                          >The rules (the plural is multivalent here) are only
                          >orthographic, so prima vista there should only be a change
                          >if hyphenation is involved. But that's an abyss ...
                          >
                          >Roland

                          Hi Roland,

                          Here in Holland there's a big movement for ignoring the latest alterations in
                          the spelling. That 'new' spelling is made very fast and ill thought through.

                          So even some newspapers they do not follow it. They don't apply
                          anymore.....

                          How about Germany ? Are you willing to implement the "new rules"

                          Best wishes

                          John Cornelisse



                          Letter-press & Typefounding, Monotype-composition

                          Vaartstraat 23
                          4553 AN Philippine
                          (Zeeuws Vlaanderen)
                          The Netherlands

                          + 31 - (0) 115 - 491184
                          email: enkidu@...

                          So she spoke to him and her word found favour,
                          he knew by instinct, he should seek a friend.


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Roland Reuß
                          John, ... Exactly the same over here. It s a chaos coming out of prepotent bureaucracy. On the other hand people now finally learn that orthography is
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jan 5, 2006
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                            John,

                            > Here in Holland there's a big movement for ignoring the
                            > latest alterations in the spelling. That 'new' spelling
                            > is made very fast and ill thought through.

                            > So even some newspapers they do not follow it. They don't
                            > apply anymore.....

                            Exactly the same over here. It's a chaos coming out of
                            prepotent bureaucracy. On the other hand people now finally
                            learn that orthography is arbitrary and not a gift of the
                            gods (or devils ;-) And that's a progress in any case.

                            > Are you willing to implement the "new rules"

                            In no case. For our journal we receive articles in different
                            spellings, so we have to 'reset' orthography from time to
                            time. I have to admit that it's not such a big job, mainly
                            the rules for sharp s and the spelling of composita
                            (together or disjunct) are really different. This last
                            issue will be drawn back soon by the responsible comittee.
                            To put it optimistically: I expect a liberalisation.

                            Best,
                            Roland

                            --
                            TOFU, oder: die Tücken der e-mail
                            <http://www.textkritik.de/schriftundcharakter/sundc008tofu.htm>
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