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Re: [PPLetterpress] Digital Ligatures

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  • Gerald Lange
    Mike I assume this is in reference to Günter Gerhard Lange? if so. . . Can t recall off hand. I think there was some discussion in this regard on the
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 1, 2006
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      Mike

      I assume this is in reference to Günter Gerhard Lange? if so. . .

      Can't recall off hand. I think there was some discussion in this regard
      on the Typophile forums a while back. May have had something to do with
      streamlining composition systems or modernizing character sets.

      I have a number of faces designed by Lange that include ligature sets
      and I believe most of the Berthold fonts that I have include ligatures. (?)

      Gerald Lange
      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

      Michael T. Metz wrote:

      >Hello Gerald:
      >
      >Would you offer a snapshot of his argument?
      >
      >Mike
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Austin
      >
      >Could be laziness or lack of knowledge. The typesetter could also have
      >turned ligatures off for tracking purposes.
      >
      >While ligatures were a necessity in the setting of most metal text type,
      >they aren't necessarily considered a requirement in digital practice. In
      >fact, the typographer Günter Gerhard Lange (no relation as far as I
      >know), who is the Artistic Director at H. Berthold AG, is well known for
      >his opposition to the use of f-ligatures.
      >
      >Gerald Lange
      >http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
      >
      >Austin wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >>For Christmas I received the book Stealing God's Thunder by Philip Dray.
      >>This is a book dealing with Ben Franklin and his scientific experiments.
      >>The book is a Random House publication.
      >>
      >>I have a question for all you digital types. Why are these mainstream
      >>publishers failing to use "f" ligatures in book typesetting? Being used
      >>to setting type in metal, the use of fl, fi etc. as ligatures seems
      >>commonplace to me. I have noticed this more and more in modern
      >>publications. The f and l, or f and i overlap and are obviously separate
      >>letters. To me a well designed page will appear an even gray to the
      >>reader. Spots of black or white are distracting and show poor design on
      >>the part of the typesetter or book designer unless that is the
      >>objective. These spots can be used quite effectively to draw attention
      >>to a particular point on the page. I am very aware of that. The black
      >>spots where the f and l overlap is excessively black. BAD from my
      >>perspective. It is difficult for me to see it other than laziness on the
      >>part of the typesetters. Even the most basic of word processors will
      >>accommodate the search and replace function. Is this just another sign
      >>of the times?
      >>
      >>Just wondering.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
    • Michael T. Metz
      Yes, good job reading my mind. It doesn t sound like much of an argument for dropping ligatures. Thanks, Mike ... From: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 1, 2006
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        Yes, good job reading my mind.

        It doesn't sound like much of an argument for
        dropping ligatures.

        Thanks,
        Mike

        -----Original Message-----
        From: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Gerald Lange
        Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 5:12 PM
        To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Digital Ligatures


        Mike

        I assume this is in reference to Günter Gerhard Lange? if so. . .

        Can't recall off hand. I think there was some discussion in this regard
        on the Typophile forums a while back. May have had something to do with
        streamlining composition systems or modernizing character sets.

        I have a number of faces designed by Lange that include ligature sets
        and I believe most of the Berthold fonts that I have include ligatures. (?)

        Gerald Lange
        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

        Michael T. Metz wrote:

        >Hello Gerald:
        >
        >Would you offer a snapshot of his argument?
        >
        >Mike
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Austin
        >
        >Could be laziness or lack of knowledge. The typesetter could also have
        >turned ligatures off for tracking purposes.
        >
        >While ligatures were a necessity in the setting of most metal text type,
        >they aren't necessarily considered a requirement in digital practice. In
        >fact, the typographer Günter Gerhard Lange (no relation as far as I
        >know), who is the Artistic Director at H. Berthold AG, is well known for
        >his opposition to the use of f-ligatures.
        >
        >Gerald Lange
        >http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
        >
        >Austin wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >>For Christmas I received the book Stealing God's Thunder by Philip Dray.
        >>This is a book dealing with Ben Franklin and his scientific experiments.
        >>The book is a Random House publication.
        >>
        >>I have a question for all you digital types. Why are these mainstream
        >>publishers failing to use "f" ligatures in book typesetting? Being used
        >>to setting type in metal, the use of fl, fi etc. as ligatures seems
        >>commonplace to me. I have noticed this more and more in modern
        >>publications. The f and l, or f and i overlap and are obviously separate
        >>letters. To me a well designed page will appear an even gray to the
        >>reader. Spots of black or white are distracting and show poor design on
        >>the part of the typesetter or book designer unless that is the
        >>objective. These spots can be used quite effectively to draw attention
        >>to a particular point on the page. I am very aware of that. The black
        >>spots where the f and l overlap is excessively black. BAD from my
        >>perspective. It is difficult for me to see it other than laziness on the
        >>part of the typesetters. Even the most basic of word processors will
        >>accommodate the search and replace function. Is this just another sign
        >>of the times?
        >>
        >>Just wondering.
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>





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      • Graham and Kathy
        Ignorance, cup-fulls of ignorance, and maybe a dash of laziness and a pinch of faux hip . Graham Moss Incline Press 36 Bow Street Oldham OL1 1SJ England
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
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          Ignorance, cup-fulls of ignorance, and maybe a dash of laziness and a pinch
          of 'faux hip'.


          Graham Moss
          Incline Press
          36 Bow Street
          Oldham OL1 1SJ England
          http://www.inclinepress.com




          On 1/1/06 17:53, "Austin" <austin@...> wrote:

          > I have a question for all you digital types. Why are these mainstream
          > publishers failing to use "f" ligatures in book typesetting? Being used
          > to setting type in metal, the use of fl, fi etc. as ligatures seems
          > commonplace to me. I have noticed this more and more in modern
          > publications. The f and l, or f and i overlap and are obviously separate
          > letters. To me a well designed page will appear an even gray to the
          > reader. Spots of black or white are distracting and show poor design on
          > the part of the typesetter or book designer unless that is the
          > objective. These spots can be used quite effectively to draw attention
          > to a particular point on the page. I am very aware of that. The black
          > spots where the f and l overlap is excessively black. BAD from my
          > perspective. It is difficult for me to see it other than laziness on the
          > part of the typesetters. Even the most basic of word processors will
          > accommodate the search and replace function. Is this just another sign
          > of the times?
          >
          > Just wondering.
        • Austin
          ... I gather - everyone on this list agrees with me in being frustrated at the failure to use the f ligature. The question then seems to me - How do we
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
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            Graham and Kathy wrote:

            > Ignorance, cup-fulls of ignorance, and maybe a dash of laziness and a
            > pinch
            > of 'faux hip'.
            >
            >
            > Graham Moss
            > Incline Press
            > 36 Bow Street
            > Oldham OL1 1SJ England
            > http://www.inclinepress.com
            >
            >
            I gather - everyone on this list agrees with me in being frustrated at
            the failure to use the f ligature. The question then seems to me - How
            do we communicate this point to the publishers? I personally intend to
            contact Random House to voice my displeasure with their lack of
            diligence in monitoring the typesetting of their books. I feel that the
            only way to preserve these standards is to scream loud and often. Apathy
            is the cause for change in society more often than activism

            --


            Austin Jones
            prints by AJ
            Point Pleasant, WV USA
            austin@...
            http://printsbyaj.com



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Carole Aldrich
            It is very simple to turn on the use of ligatures in page layout software like Quark or InDesign. It does not make extra work, only the awareness that this
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
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              It is very simple to "turn on" the use of ligatures in page layout
              software like Quark or InDesign. It does not make extra work, only
              the awareness that this should be done, just as turning on the
              function to convert "typewriter quotes" to "curly quotes".



              Carole Aldrich
              carolealdrich@...
              909-625-7722
              909-625-9822 fax
              909-374-2981 cell
            • Graham and Kathy
              All the logical reasons for complaint were concisely expressed in Austins email. Those of us who think it s important ought to be complaining every time we see
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
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                All the logical reasons for complaint were concisely expressed in Austins
                email. Those of us who think it's important ought to be complaining every
                time we see a publisher with lax standards in this as well as the other
                respects that concern not just us but a wider constituency. For instance, in
                the UK there is an awareness reported in the literary sections of the daily
                press of a loss of editorial work and of proof-reading. I would assume that
                it's all to do with making books cheaper by cutting overheads, and thus ties
                in with using under-educated typists when it comes to setting the books
                instead of typists who know what correct typesetting should entail.

                Despite such an economic imperative running the show, I wouldn't consider
                complaining about falling standards to be a waste of time. There are
                publishers who maintain standards, and they manage in the same market. They
                should get letters too.


                Graham Moss
                Incline Press
                36 Bow Street
                Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                http://www.inclinepress.com
              • Scott Rubel
                The only way to get this across to publishers is the old-fashioned way: boycott and demonstrate. Pace out front of your favorite bookstore carrying a sign with
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
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                  The only way to get this across to publishers is the old-fashioned
                  way: boycott and demonstrate. Pace out front of your favorite
                  bookstore carrying a sign with an "f" and "l" with a red circle and
                  cross through them. Hand out broadsides. Check shoppers' bags for
                  ligatureless reading matter and implore them to return it and get
                  their money back.

                  I am doing my part. I am circling every missed opportunity for a
                  ligature in every book I received for Christmas and I'm sending them
                  back to the publishers as "unreadable" and telling them to get their
                  (and here's my favorite ligature) fhit together.

                  ♜Scott Rubel♖

                  On Jan 2, 2006, at 8:11 AM, Austin wrote:

                  > Graham and Kathy wrote:
                  >
                  >> Ignorance, cup-fulls of ignorance, and maybe a dash of laziness
                  >> and a pinch of 'faux hip'.
                  >>
                  >> Graham Moss
                  >> Incline Press
                  >> 36 Bow Street
                  >> Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                  >> http://www.inclinepress.com
                  >>
                  > I gather - everyone on this list agrees with me in being frustrated at
                  > the failure to use the f ligature. The question then seems to me - How
                  > do we communicate this point to the publishers? I personally intend to
                  > contact Random House to voice my displeasure with their lack of
                  > diligence in monitoring the typesetting of their books. I feel that
                  > the
                  > only way to preserve these standards is to scream loud and often.
                  > Apathy
                  > is the cause for change in society more often than activism
                  >
                  > --
                  > Austin Jones
                  > prints by AJ
                  > Point Pleasant, WV USA
                  > austin@...
                  > http://printsbyaj.com
                • Scott Rubel
                  I was not aware of this in InDesign. Bummer…all the time I spent inserting ligatures. Ignorance. Thank you for the lesson. --Scott
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
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                    I was not aware of this in InDesign.

                    Bummer…all the time I spent inserting ligatures.

                    Ignorance. Thank you for the lesson.

                    --Scott

                    On Jan 2, 2006, at 8:47 AM, Carole Aldrich wrote:

                    > It is very simple to "turn on" the use of ligatures in page layout
                    > software like Quark or InDesign. It does not make extra work, only
                    > the awareness that this should be done, just as turning on the
                    > function to convert "typewriter quotes" to "curly quotes".
                    >
                    > Carole Aldrich
                    > carolealdrich@...
                    > 909-625-7722
                    > 909-625-9822 fax
                    > 909-374-2981 cell
                  • Farida Bee
                    Scott, This would make a great T-shirt design. Farida ... sign with an f and l with a red circle and cross through them.
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
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                      Scott,

                      This would make a great T-shirt design.

                      Farida



                      --- Scott Rubel <scott@...> wrote:

                      > Pace out front of your favorite bookstore carrying a
                      sign with an "f" and "l" with a red circle and cross
                      through them.



                      __________________________________________
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                    • Michael T. Metz
                      That s hilarious, and it would probably make the news. Civil disobedience at its best. ... From: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
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                        That's hilarious, and it would probably make the
                        news. Civil disobedience at its best.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Scott Rubel
                        Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 3:38 PM
                        To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Digital Ligatures


                        The only way to get this across to publishers is the old-fashioned
                        way: boycott and demonstrate. Pace out front of your favorite
                        bookstore carrying a sign with an "f" and "l" with a red circle and
                        cross through them. Hand out broadsides. Check shoppers' bags for
                        ligatureless reading matter and implore them to return it and get
                        their money back.

                        I am doing my part. I am circling every missed opportunity for a
                        ligature in every book I received for Christmas and I'm sending them
                        back to the publishers as "unreadable" and telling them to get their
                        (and here's my favorite ligature) fhit together.

                        ♜Scott Rubel♖

                        On Jan 2, 2006, at 8:11 AM, Austin wrote:

                        > Graham and Kathy wrote:
                        >
                        >> Ignorance, cup-fulls of ignorance, and maybe a dash of laziness
                        >> and a pinch of 'faux hip'.
                        >>
                        >> Graham Moss
                        >> Incline Press
                        >> 36 Bow Street
                        >> Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                        >> http://www.inclinepress.com
                        >>
                        > I gather - everyone on this list agrees with me in being frustrated at
                        > the failure to use the f ligature. The question then seems to me - How
                        > do we communicate this point to the publishers? I personally intend to
                        > contact Random House to voice my displeasure with their lack of
                        > diligence in monitoring the typesetting of their books. I feel that
                        > the
                        > only way to preserve these standards is to scream loud and often.
                        > Apathy
                        > is the cause for change in society more often than activism
                        >
                        > --
                        > Austin Jones
                        > prints by AJ
                        > Point Pleasant, WV USA
                        > austin@...
                        > http://printsbyaj.com



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