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Re: [PPLetterpress] Digital Ligatures

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  • David Michael McNamara
    Older versions of Quark, I believe, didn t have automatic ligatures, and I think the same goes for PageMaker. (I know the newest versions of Quark do, as is
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 1, 2006
      Older versions of Quark, I believe, didn't have automatic ligatures, and I think the same goes for PageMaker. (I know the newest versions of Quark do, as is the case of InDesign.) And, of course, certain typefaces aren't cooperative with this option, either.

      Of course, someone could go through and manually place the ligatures in there, but the larger publishing houses aren't going to be bother with that for a mass market book. After all, in most cases the title of the person doing the pouring is just that--a Pourer, or Operator, or something similar--and not Graphic Designer, Typographer, et cetera.

      At the end, this is mostly a hunch, and I'm sure there are some other reasons that contribute.
      __

      Davod
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Austin
      To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 12:53 PM
      Subject: [PPLetterpress] Digital Ligatures


      For Christmas I received the book Stealing God's Thunder by Philip Dray.
      This is a book dealing with Ben Franklin and his scientific experiments.
      The book is a Random House publication.

      I have a question for all you digital types. Why are these mainstream
      publishers failing to use "f" ligatures in book typesetting? Being used
      to setting type in metal, the use of fl, fi etc. as ligatures seems
      commonplace to me. I have noticed this more and more in modern
      publications. The f and l, or f and i overlap and are obviously separate
      letters. To me a well designed page will appear an even gray to the
      reader. Spots of black or white are distracting and show poor design on
      the part of the typesetter or book designer unless that is the
      objective. These spots can be used quite effectively to draw attention
      to a particular point on the page. I am very aware of that. The black
      spots where the f and l overlap is excessively black. BAD from my
      perspective. It is difficult for me to see it other than laziness on the
      part of the typesetters. Even the most basic of word processors will
      accommodate the search and replace function. Is this just another sign
      of the times?

      Just wondering.

      --


      Austin Jones
      prints by AJ
      Point Pleasant, WV USA
      austin@...
      http://printsbyaj.com



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    • Gerald Lange
      Austin Could be laziness or lack of knowledge. The typesetter could also have turned ligatures off for tracking purposes. While ligatures were a necessity in
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 1, 2006
        Austin

        Could be laziness or lack of knowledge. The typesetter could also have
        turned ligatures off for tracking purposes.

        While ligatures were a necessity in the setting of most metal text type,
        they aren't necessarily considered a requirement in digital practice. In
        fact, the typographer Günter Gerhard Lange (no relation as far as I
        know), who is the Artistic Director at H. Berthold AG, is well known for
        his opposition to the use of f-ligatures.

        Gerald Lange
        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

        Austin wrote:

        >For Christmas I received the book Stealing God's Thunder by Philip Dray.
        >This is a book dealing with Ben Franklin and his scientific experiments.
        >The book is a Random House publication.
        >
        >I have a question for all you digital types. Why are these mainstream
        >publishers failing to use "f" ligatures in book typesetting? Being used
        >to setting type in metal, the use of fl, fi etc. as ligatures seems
        >commonplace to me. I have noticed this more and more in modern
        >publications. The f and l, or f and i overlap and are obviously separate
        >letters. To me a well designed page will appear an even gray to the
        >reader. Spots of black or white are distracting and show poor design on
        >the part of the typesetter or book designer unless that is the
        >objective. These spots can be used quite effectively to draw attention
        >to a particular point on the page. I am very aware of that. The black
        >spots where the f and l overlap is excessively black. BAD from my
        >perspective. It is difficult for me to see it other than laziness on the
        >part of the typesetters. Even the most basic of word processors will
        >accommodate the search and replace function. Is this just another sign
        >of the times?
        >
        >Just wondering.
        >
        >
        >
      • Michael T. Metz
        Hello Gerald: Would you offer a snapshot of his argument? Mike ... From: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 1, 2006
          Hello Gerald:

          Would you offer a snapshot of his argument?

          Mike







          -----Original Message-----
          From: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Gerald Lange
          Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 2:00 PM
          To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Digital Ligatures


          Austin

          Could be laziness or lack of knowledge. The typesetter could also have
          turned ligatures off for tracking purposes.

          While ligatures were a necessity in the setting of most metal text type,
          they aren't necessarily considered a requirement in digital practice. In
          fact, the typographer Günter Gerhard Lange (no relation as far as I
          know), who is the Artistic Director at H. Berthold AG, is well known for
          his opposition to the use of f-ligatures.

          Gerald Lange
          http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

          Austin wrote:

          >For Christmas I received the book Stealing God's Thunder by Philip Dray.
          >This is a book dealing with Ben Franklin and his scientific experiments.
          >The book is a Random House publication.
          >
          >I have a question for all you digital types. Why are these mainstream
          >publishers failing to use "f" ligatures in book typesetting? Being used
          >to setting type in metal, the use of fl, fi etc. as ligatures seems
          >commonplace to me. I have noticed this more and more in modern
          >publications. The f and l, or f and i overlap and are obviously separate
          >letters. To me a well designed page will appear an even gray to the
          >reader. Spots of black or white are distracting and show poor design on
          >the part of the typesetter or book designer unless that is the
          >objective. These spots can be used quite effectively to draw attention
          >to a particular point on the page. I am very aware of that. The black
          >spots where the f and l overlap is excessively black. BAD from my
          >perspective. It is difficult for me to see it other than laziness on the
          >part of the typesetters. Even the most basic of word processors will
          >accommodate the search and replace function. Is this just another sign
          >of the times?
          >
          >Just wondering.
          >
          >
          >





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        • Gerald Lange
          Mike I assume this is in reference to Günter Gerhard Lange? if so. . . Can t recall off hand. I think there was some discussion in this regard on the
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 1, 2006
            Mike

            I assume this is in reference to Günter Gerhard Lange? if so. . .

            Can't recall off hand. I think there was some discussion in this regard
            on the Typophile forums a while back. May have had something to do with
            streamlining composition systems or modernizing character sets.

            I have a number of faces designed by Lange that include ligature sets
            and I believe most of the Berthold fonts that I have include ligatures. (?)

            Gerald Lange
            http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

            Michael T. Metz wrote:

            >Hello Gerald:
            >
            >Would you offer a snapshot of his argument?
            >
            >Mike
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Austin
            >
            >Could be laziness or lack of knowledge. The typesetter could also have
            >turned ligatures off for tracking purposes.
            >
            >While ligatures were a necessity in the setting of most metal text type,
            >they aren't necessarily considered a requirement in digital practice. In
            >fact, the typographer Günter Gerhard Lange (no relation as far as I
            >know), who is the Artistic Director at H. Berthold AG, is well known for
            >his opposition to the use of f-ligatures.
            >
            >Gerald Lange
            >http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
            >
            >Austin wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >>For Christmas I received the book Stealing God's Thunder by Philip Dray.
            >>This is a book dealing with Ben Franklin and his scientific experiments.
            >>The book is a Random House publication.
            >>
            >>I have a question for all you digital types. Why are these mainstream
            >>publishers failing to use "f" ligatures in book typesetting? Being used
            >>to setting type in metal, the use of fl, fi etc. as ligatures seems
            >>commonplace to me. I have noticed this more and more in modern
            >>publications. The f and l, or f and i overlap and are obviously separate
            >>letters. To me a well designed page will appear an even gray to the
            >>reader. Spots of black or white are distracting and show poor design on
            >>the part of the typesetter or book designer unless that is the
            >>objective. These spots can be used quite effectively to draw attention
            >>to a particular point on the page. I am very aware of that. The black
            >>spots where the f and l overlap is excessively black. BAD from my
            >>perspective. It is difficult for me to see it other than laziness on the
            >>part of the typesetters. Even the most basic of word processors will
            >>accommodate the search and replace function. Is this just another sign
            >>of the times?
            >>
            >>Just wondering.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
          • Michael T. Metz
            Yes, good job reading my mind. It doesn t sound like much of an argument for dropping ligatures. Thanks, Mike ... From: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 1, 2006
              Yes, good job reading my mind.

              It doesn't sound like much of an argument for
              dropping ligatures.

              Thanks,
              Mike

              -----Original Message-----
              From: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Gerald Lange
              Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 5:12 PM
              To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Digital Ligatures


              Mike

              I assume this is in reference to Günter Gerhard Lange? if so. . .

              Can't recall off hand. I think there was some discussion in this regard
              on the Typophile forums a while back. May have had something to do with
              streamlining composition systems or modernizing character sets.

              I have a number of faces designed by Lange that include ligature sets
              and I believe most of the Berthold fonts that I have include ligatures. (?)

              Gerald Lange
              http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

              Michael T. Metz wrote:

              >Hello Gerald:
              >
              >Would you offer a snapshot of his argument?
              >
              >Mike
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Austin
              >
              >Could be laziness or lack of knowledge. The typesetter could also have
              >turned ligatures off for tracking purposes.
              >
              >While ligatures were a necessity in the setting of most metal text type,
              >they aren't necessarily considered a requirement in digital practice. In
              >fact, the typographer Günter Gerhard Lange (no relation as far as I
              >know), who is the Artistic Director at H. Berthold AG, is well known for
              >his opposition to the use of f-ligatures.
              >
              >Gerald Lange
              >http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
              >
              >Austin wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >>For Christmas I received the book Stealing God's Thunder by Philip Dray.
              >>This is a book dealing with Ben Franklin and his scientific experiments.
              >>The book is a Random House publication.
              >>
              >>I have a question for all you digital types. Why are these mainstream
              >>publishers failing to use "f" ligatures in book typesetting? Being used
              >>to setting type in metal, the use of fl, fi etc. as ligatures seems
              >>commonplace to me. I have noticed this more and more in modern
              >>publications. The f and l, or f and i overlap and are obviously separate
              >>letters. To me a well designed page will appear an even gray to the
              >>reader. Spots of black or white are distracting and show poor design on
              >>the part of the typesetter or book designer unless that is the
              >>objective. These spots can be used quite effectively to draw attention
              >>to a particular point on the page. I am very aware of that. The black
              >>spots where the f and l overlap is excessively black. BAD from my
              >>perspective. It is difficult for me to see it other than laziness on the
              >>part of the typesetters. Even the most basic of word processors will
              >>accommodate the search and replace function. Is this just another sign
              >>of the times?
              >>
              >>Just wondering.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>





              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Graham and Kathy
              Ignorance, cup-fulls of ignorance, and maybe a dash of laziness and a pinch of faux hip . Graham Moss Incline Press 36 Bow Street Oldham OL1 1SJ England
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
                Ignorance, cup-fulls of ignorance, and maybe a dash of laziness and a pinch
                of 'faux hip'.


                Graham Moss
                Incline Press
                36 Bow Street
                Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                http://www.inclinepress.com




                On 1/1/06 17:53, "Austin" <austin@...> wrote:

                > I have a question for all you digital types. Why are these mainstream
                > publishers failing to use "f" ligatures in book typesetting? Being used
                > to setting type in metal, the use of fl, fi etc. as ligatures seems
                > commonplace to me. I have noticed this more and more in modern
                > publications. The f and l, or f and i overlap and are obviously separate
                > letters. To me a well designed page will appear an even gray to the
                > reader. Spots of black or white are distracting and show poor design on
                > the part of the typesetter or book designer unless that is the
                > objective. These spots can be used quite effectively to draw attention
                > to a particular point on the page. I am very aware of that. The black
                > spots where the f and l overlap is excessively black. BAD from my
                > perspective. It is difficult for me to see it other than laziness on the
                > part of the typesetters. Even the most basic of word processors will
                > accommodate the search and replace function. Is this just another sign
                > of the times?
                >
                > Just wondering.
              • Austin
                ... I gather - everyone on this list agrees with me in being frustrated at the failure to use the f ligature. The question then seems to me - How do we
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
                  Graham and Kathy wrote:

                  > Ignorance, cup-fulls of ignorance, and maybe a dash of laziness and a
                  > pinch
                  > of 'faux hip'.
                  >
                  >
                  > Graham Moss
                  > Incline Press
                  > 36 Bow Street
                  > Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                  > http://www.inclinepress.com
                  >
                  >
                  I gather - everyone on this list agrees with me in being frustrated at
                  the failure to use the f ligature. The question then seems to me - How
                  do we communicate this point to the publishers? I personally intend to
                  contact Random House to voice my displeasure with their lack of
                  diligence in monitoring the typesetting of their books. I feel that the
                  only way to preserve these standards is to scream loud and often. Apathy
                  is the cause for change in society more often than activism

                  --


                  Austin Jones
                  prints by AJ
                  Point Pleasant, WV USA
                  austin@...
                  http://printsbyaj.com



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Carole Aldrich
                  It is very simple to turn on the use of ligatures in page layout software like Quark or InDesign. It does not make extra work, only the awareness that this
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
                    It is very simple to "turn on" the use of ligatures in page layout
                    software like Quark or InDesign. It does not make extra work, only
                    the awareness that this should be done, just as turning on the
                    function to convert "typewriter quotes" to "curly quotes".



                    Carole Aldrich
                    carolealdrich@...
                    909-625-7722
                    909-625-9822 fax
                    909-374-2981 cell
                  • Graham and Kathy
                    All the logical reasons for complaint were concisely expressed in Austins email. Those of us who think it s important ought to be complaining every time we see
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
                      All the logical reasons for complaint were concisely expressed in Austins
                      email. Those of us who think it's important ought to be complaining every
                      time we see a publisher with lax standards in this as well as the other
                      respects that concern not just us but a wider constituency. For instance, in
                      the UK there is an awareness reported in the literary sections of the daily
                      press of a loss of editorial work and of proof-reading. I would assume that
                      it's all to do with making books cheaper by cutting overheads, and thus ties
                      in with using under-educated typists when it comes to setting the books
                      instead of typists who know what correct typesetting should entail.

                      Despite such an economic imperative running the show, I wouldn't consider
                      complaining about falling standards to be a waste of time. There are
                      publishers who maintain standards, and they manage in the same market. They
                      should get letters too.


                      Graham Moss
                      Incline Press
                      36 Bow Street
                      Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                      http://www.inclinepress.com
                    • Scott Rubel
                      The only way to get this across to publishers is the old-fashioned way: boycott and demonstrate. Pace out front of your favorite bookstore carrying a sign with
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
                        The only way to get this across to publishers is the old-fashioned
                        way: boycott and demonstrate. Pace out front of your favorite
                        bookstore carrying a sign with an "f" and "l" with a red circle and
                        cross through them. Hand out broadsides. Check shoppers' bags for
                        ligatureless reading matter and implore them to return it and get
                        their money back.

                        I am doing my part. I am circling every missed opportunity for a
                        ligature in every book I received for Christmas and I'm sending them
                        back to the publishers as "unreadable" and telling them to get their
                        (and here's my favorite ligature) fhit together.

                        ♜Scott Rubel♖

                        On Jan 2, 2006, at 8:11 AM, Austin wrote:

                        > Graham and Kathy wrote:
                        >
                        >> Ignorance, cup-fulls of ignorance, and maybe a dash of laziness
                        >> and a pinch of 'faux hip'.
                        >>
                        >> Graham Moss
                        >> Incline Press
                        >> 36 Bow Street
                        >> Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                        >> http://www.inclinepress.com
                        >>
                        > I gather - everyone on this list agrees with me in being frustrated at
                        > the failure to use the f ligature. The question then seems to me - How
                        > do we communicate this point to the publishers? I personally intend to
                        > contact Random House to voice my displeasure with their lack of
                        > diligence in monitoring the typesetting of their books. I feel that
                        > the
                        > only way to preserve these standards is to scream loud and often.
                        > Apathy
                        > is the cause for change in society more often than activism
                        >
                        > --
                        > Austin Jones
                        > prints by AJ
                        > Point Pleasant, WV USA
                        > austin@...
                        > http://printsbyaj.com
                      • Scott Rubel
                        I was not aware of this in InDesign. Bummer…all the time I spent inserting ligatures. Ignorance. Thank you for the lesson. --Scott
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
                          I was not aware of this in InDesign.

                          Bummer…all the time I spent inserting ligatures.

                          Ignorance. Thank you for the lesson.

                          --Scott

                          On Jan 2, 2006, at 8:47 AM, Carole Aldrich wrote:

                          > It is very simple to "turn on" the use of ligatures in page layout
                          > software like Quark or InDesign. It does not make extra work, only
                          > the awareness that this should be done, just as turning on the
                          > function to convert "typewriter quotes" to "curly quotes".
                          >
                          > Carole Aldrich
                          > carolealdrich@...
                          > 909-625-7722
                          > 909-625-9822 fax
                          > 909-374-2981 cell
                        • Farida Bee
                          Scott, This would make a great T-shirt design. Farida ... sign with an f and l with a red circle and cross through them.
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
                            Scott,

                            This would make a great T-shirt design.

                            Farida



                            --- Scott Rubel <scott@...> wrote:

                            > Pace out front of your favorite bookstore carrying a
                            sign with an "f" and "l" with a red circle and cross
                            through them.



                            __________________________________________
                            Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
                            Just $16.99/mo. or less.
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                          • Michael T. Metz
                            That s hilarious, and it would probably make the news. Civil disobedience at its best. ... From: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
                              That's hilarious, and it would probably make the
                              news. Civil disobedience at its best.

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Scott Rubel
                              Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 3:38 PM
                              To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Digital Ligatures


                              The only way to get this across to publishers is the old-fashioned
                              way: boycott and demonstrate. Pace out front of your favorite
                              bookstore carrying a sign with an "f" and "l" with a red circle and
                              cross through them. Hand out broadsides. Check shoppers' bags for
                              ligatureless reading matter and implore them to return it and get
                              their money back.

                              I am doing my part. I am circling every missed opportunity for a
                              ligature in every book I received for Christmas and I'm sending them
                              back to the publishers as "unreadable" and telling them to get their
                              (and here's my favorite ligature) fhit together.

                              ♜Scott Rubel♖

                              On Jan 2, 2006, at 8:11 AM, Austin wrote:

                              > Graham and Kathy wrote:
                              >
                              >> Ignorance, cup-fulls of ignorance, and maybe a dash of laziness
                              >> and a pinch of 'faux hip'.
                              >>
                              >> Graham Moss
                              >> Incline Press
                              >> 36 Bow Street
                              >> Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                              >> http://www.inclinepress.com
                              >>
                              > I gather - everyone on this list agrees with me in being frustrated at
                              > the failure to use the f ligature. The question then seems to me - How
                              > do we communicate this point to the publishers? I personally intend to
                              > contact Random House to voice my displeasure with their lack of
                              > diligence in monitoring the typesetting of their books. I feel that
                              > the
                              > only way to preserve these standards is to scream loud and often.
                              > Apathy
                              > is the cause for change in society more often than activism
                              >
                              > --
                              > Austin Jones
                              > prints by AJ
                              > Point Pleasant, WV USA
                              > austin@...
                              > http://printsbyaj.com



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