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Re: I am selling my WONDERFUL PRESS!

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  • parallel_imp
    ... Having seen the press, I should point out that the press is a Vandercook 219 old style and is not an AB model. Eric Holub, SF
    Message 1 of 18 , Dec 29, 2005
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      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Protean Press"
      <proteanpress@s...> wrote:
      >
      > Rich and I will be moving in mid-summer to a smaller home closer to
      > downtown S.F. We have been planning that 'within the next few years'
      > I would move on to doing more with my etching press and sell my
      > Vandercook 219 AB, guillotine, and type and type cases.

      Having seen the press, I should point out that the press is a
      Vandercook 219 old style and is not an AB model.
      Eric Holub, SF
    • Austin
      For Christmas I received the book Stealing God s Thunder by Philip Dray. This is a book dealing with Ben Franklin and his scientific experiments. The book is a
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 1, 2006
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        For Christmas I received the book Stealing God's Thunder by Philip Dray.
        This is a book dealing with Ben Franklin and his scientific experiments.
        The book is a Random House publication.

        I have a question for all you digital types. Why are these mainstream
        publishers failing to use "f" ligatures in book typesetting? Being used
        to setting type in metal, the use of fl, fi etc. as ligatures seems
        commonplace to me. I have noticed this more and more in modern
        publications. The f and l, or f and i overlap and are obviously separate
        letters. To me a well designed page will appear an even gray to the
        reader. Spots of black or white are distracting and show poor design on
        the part of the typesetter or book designer unless that is the
        objective. These spots can be used quite effectively to draw attention
        to a particular point on the page. I am very aware of that. The black
        spots where the f and l overlap is excessively black. BAD from my
        perspective. It is difficult for me to see it other than laziness on the
        part of the typesetters. Even the most basic of word processors will
        accommodate the search and replace function. Is this just another sign
        of the times?

        Just wondering.

        --


        Austin Jones
        prints by AJ
        Point Pleasant, WV USA
        austin@...
        http://printsbyaj.com
      • David Michael McNamara
        Older versions of Quark, I believe, didn t have automatic ligatures, and I think the same goes for PageMaker. (I know the newest versions of Quark do, as is
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 1, 2006
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          Older versions of Quark, I believe, didn't have automatic ligatures, and I think the same goes for PageMaker. (I know the newest versions of Quark do, as is the case of InDesign.) And, of course, certain typefaces aren't cooperative with this option, either.

          Of course, someone could go through and manually place the ligatures in there, but the larger publishing houses aren't going to be bother with that for a mass market book. After all, in most cases the title of the person doing the pouring is just that--a Pourer, or Operator, or something similar--and not Graphic Designer, Typographer, et cetera.

          At the end, this is mostly a hunch, and I'm sure there are some other reasons that contribute.
          __

          Davod
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Austin
          To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 12:53 PM
          Subject: [PPLetterpress] Digital Ligatures


          For Christmas I received the book Stealing God's Thunder by Philip Dray.
          This is a book dealing with Ben Franklin and his scientific experiments.
          The book is a Random House publication.

          I have a question for all you digital types. Why are these mainstream
          publishers failing to use "f" ligatures in book typesetting? Being used
          to setting type in metal, the use of fl, fi etc. as ligatures seems
          commonplace to me. I have noticed this more and more in modern
          publications. The f and l, or f and i overlap and are obviously separate
          letters. To me a well designed page will appear an even gray to the
          reader. Spots of black or white are distracting and show poor design on
          the part of the typesetter or book designer unless that is the
          objective. These spots can be used quite effectively to draw attention
          to a particular point on the page. I am very aware of that. The black
          spots where the f and l overlap is excessively black. BAD from my
          perspective. It is difficult for me to see it other than laziness on the
          part of the typesetters. Even the most basic of word processors will
          accommodate the search and replace function. Is this just another sign
          of the times?

          Just wondering.

          --


          Austin Jones
          prints by AJ
          Point Pleasant, WV USA
          austin@...
          http://printsbyaj.com



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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Gerald Lange
          Austin Could be laziness or lack of knowledge. The typesetter could also have turned ligatures off for tracking purposes. While ligatures were a necessity in
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 1, 2006
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            Austin

            Could be laziness or lack of knowledge. The typesetter could also have
            turned ligatures off for tracking purposes.

            While ligatures were a necessity in the setting of most metal text type,
            they aren't necessarily considered a requirement in digital practice. In
            fact, the typographer Günter Gerhard Lange (no relation as far as I
            know), who is the Artistic Director at H. Berthold AG, is well known for
            his opposition to the use of f-ligatures.

            Gerald Lange
            http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

            Austin wrote:

            >For Christmas I received the book Stealing God's Thunder by Philip Dray.
            >This is a book dealing with Ben Franklin and his scientific experiments.
            >The book is a Random House publication.
            >
            >I have a question for all you digital types. Why are these mainstream
            >publishers failing to use "f" ligatures in book typesetting? Being used
            >to setting type in metal, the use of fl, fi etc. as ligatures seems
            >commonplace to me. I have noticed this more and more in modern
            >publications. The f and l, or f and i overlap and are obviously separate
            >letters. To me a well designed page will appear an even gray to the
            >reader. Spots of black or white are distracting and show poor design on
            >the part of the typesetter or book designer unless that is the
            >objective. These spots can be used quite effectively to draw attention
            >to a particular point on the page. I am very aware of that. The black
            >spots where the f and l overlap is excessively black. BAD from my
            >perspective. It is difficult for me to see it other than laziness on the
            >part of the typesetters. Even the most basic of word processors will
            >accommodate the search and replace function. Is this just another sign
            >of the times?
            >
            >Just wondering.
            >
            >
            >
          • Michael T. Metz
            Hello Gerald: Would you offer a snapshot of his argument? Mike ... From: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 1, 2006
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              Hello Gerald:

              Would you offer a snapshot of his argument?

              Mike







              -----Original Message-----
              From: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Gerald Lange
              Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 2:00 PM
              To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Digital Ligatures


              Austin

              Could be laziness or lack of knowledge. The typesetter could also have
              turned ligatures off for tracking purposes.

              While ligatures were a necessity in the setting of most metal text type,
              they aren't necessarily considered a requirement in digital practice. In
              fact, the typographer Günter Gerhard Lange (no relation as far as I
              know), who is the Artistic Director at H. Berthold AG, is well known for
              his opposition to the use of f-ligatures.

              Gerald Lange
              http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

              Austin wrote:

              >For Christmas I received the book Stealing God's Thunder by Philip Dray.
              >This is a book dealing with Ben Franklin and his scientific experiments.
              >The book is a Random House publication.
              >
              >I have a question for all you digital types. Why are these mainstream
              >publishers failing to use "f" ligatures in book typesetting? Being used
              >to setting type in metal, the use of fl, fi etc. as ligatures seems
              >commonplace to me. I have noticed this more and more in modern
              >publications. The f and l, or f and i overlap and are obviously separate
              >letters. To me a well designed page will appear an even gray to the
              >reader. Spots of black or white are distracting and show poor design on
              >the part of the typesetter or book designer unless that is the
              >objective. These spots can be used quite effectively to draw attention
              >to a particular point on the page. I am very aware of that. The black
              >spots where the f and l overlap is excessively black. BAD from my
              >perspective. It is difficult for me to see it other than laziness on the
              >part of the typesetters. Even the most basic of word processors will
              >accommodate the search and replace function. Is this just another sign
              >of the times?
              >
              >Just wondering.
              >
              >
              >





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            • Gerald Lange
              Mike I assume this is in reference to Günter Gerhard Lange? if so. . . Can t recall off hand. I think there was some discussion in this regard on the
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 1, 2006
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                Mike

                I assume this is in reference to Günter Gerhard Lange? if so. . .

                Can't recall off hand. I think there was some discussion in this regard
                on the Typophile forums a while back. May have had something to do with
                streamlining composition systems or modernizing character sets.

                I have a number of faces designed by Lange that include ligature sets
                and I believe most of the Berthold fonts that I have include ligatures. (?)

                Gerald Lange
                http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                Michael T. Metz wrote:

                >Hello Gerald:
                >
                >Would you offer a snapshot of his argument?
                >
                >Mike
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Austin
                >
                >Could be laziness or lack of knowledge. The typesetter could also have
                >turned ligatures off for tracking purposes.
                >
                >While ligatures were a necessity in the setting of most metal text type,
                >they aren't necessarily considered a requirement in digital practice. In
                >fact, the typographer Günter Gerhard Lange (no relation as far as I
                >know), who is the Artistic Director at H. Berthold AG, is well known for
                >his opposition to the use of f-ligatures.
                >
                >Gerald Lange
                >http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                >
                >Austin wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >>For Christmas I received the book Stealing God's Thunder by Philip Dray.
                >>This is a book dealing with Ben Franklin and his scientific experiments.
                >>The book is a Random House publication.
                >>
                >>I have a question for all you digital types. Why are these mainstream
                >>publishers failing to use "f" ligatures in book typesetting? Being used
                >>to setting type in metal, the use of fl, fi etc. as ligatures seems
                >>commonplace to me. I have noticed this more and more in modern
                >>publications. The f and l, or f and i overlap and are obviously separate
                >>letters. To me a well designed page will appear an even gray to the
                >>reader. Spots of black or white are distracting and show poor design on
                >>the part of the typesetter or book designer unless that is the
                >>objective. These spots can be used quite effectively to draw attention
                >>to a particular point on the page. I am very aware of that. The black
                >>spots where the f and l overlap is excessively black. BAD from my
                >>perspective. It is difficult for me to see it other than laziness on the
                >>part of the typesetters. Even the most basic of word processors will
                >>accommodate the search and replace function. Is this just another sign
                >>of the times?
                >>
                >>Just wondering.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
              • Michael T. Metz
                Yes, good job reading my mind. It doesn t sound like much of an argument for dropping ligatures. Thanks, Mike ... From: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 1, 2006
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                  Yes, good job reading my mind.

                  It doesn't sound like much of an argument for
                  dropping ligatures.

                  Thanks,
                  Mike

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Gerald Lange
                  Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 5:12 PM
                  To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Digital Ligatures


                  Mike

                  I assume this is in reference to Günter Gerhard Lange? if so. . .

                  Can't recall off hand. I think there was some discussion in this regard
                  on the Typophile forums a while back. May have had something to do with
                  streamlining composition systems or modernizing character sets.

                  I have a number of faces designed by Lange that include ligature sets
                  and I believe most of the Berthold fonts that I have include ligatures. (?)

                  Gerald Lange
                  http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                  Michael T. Metz wrote:

                  >Hello Gerald:
                  >
                  >Would you offer a snapshot of his argument?
                  >
                  >Mike
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Austin
                  >
                  >Could be laziness or lack of knowledge. The typesetter could also have
                  >turned ligatures off for tracking purposes.
                  >
                  >While ligatures were a necessity in the setting of most metal text type,
                  >they aren't necessarily considered a requirement in digital practice. In
                  >fact, the typographer Günter Gerhard Lange (no relation as far as I
                  >know), who is the Artistic Director at H. Berthold AG, is well known for
                  >his opposition to the use of f-ligatures.
                  >
                  >Gerald Lange
                  >http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                  >
                  >Austin wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >>For Christmas I received the book Stealing God's Thunder by Philip Dray.
                  >>This is a book dealing with Ben Franklin and his scientific experiments.
                  >>The book is a Random House publication.
                  >>
                  >>I have a question for all you digital types. Why are these mainstream
                  >>publishers failing to use "f" ligatures in book typesetting? Being used
                  >>to setting type in metal, the use of fl, fi etc. as ligatures seems
                  >>commonplace to me. I have noticed this more and more in modern
                  >>publications. The f and l, or f and i overlap and are obviously separate
                  >>letters. To me a well designed page will appear an even gray to the
                  >>reader. Spots of black or white are distracting and show poor design on
                  >>the part of the typesetter or book designer unless that is the
                  >>objective. These spots can be used quite effectively to draw attention
                  >>to a particular point on the page. I am very aware of that. The black
                  >>spots where the f and l overlap is excessively black. BAD from my
                  >>perspective. It is difficult for me to see it other than laziness on the
                  >>part of the typesetters. Even the most basic of word processors will
                  >>accommodate the search and replace function. Is this just another sign
                  >>of the times?
                  >>
                  >>Just wondering.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>





                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • Graham and Kathy
                  Ignorance, cup-fulls of ignorance, and maybe a dash of laziness and a pinch of faux hip . Graham Moss Incline Press 36 Bow Street Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
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                    Ignorance, cup-fulls of ignorance, and maybe a dash of laziness and a pinch
                    of 'faux hip'.


                    Graham Moss
                    Incline Press
                    36 Bow Street
                    Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                    http://www.inclinepress.com




                    On 1/1/06 17:53, "Austin" <austin@...> wrote:

                    > I have a question for all you digital types. Why are these mainstream
                    > publishers failing to use "f" ligatures in book typesetting? Being used
                    > to setting type in metal, the use of fl, fi etc. as ligatures seems
                    > commonplace to me. I have noticed this more and more in modern
                    > publications. The f and l, or f and i overlap and are obviously separate
                    > letters. To me a well designed page will appear an even gray to the
                    > reader. Spots of black or white are distracting and show poor design on
                    > the part of the typesetter or book designer unless that is the
                    > objective. These spots can be used quite effectively to draw attention
                    > to a particular point on the page. I am very aware of that. The black
                    > spots where the f and l overlap is excessively black. BAD from my
                    > perspective. It is difficult for me to see it other than laziness on the
                    > part of the typesetters. Even the most basic of word processors will
                    > accommodate the search and replace function. Is this just another sign
                    > of the times?
                    >
                    > Just wondering.
                  • Austin
                    ... I gather - everyone on this list agrees with me in being frustrated at the failure to use the f ligature. The question then seems to me - How do we
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
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                      Graham and Kathy wrote:

                      > Ignorance, cup-fulls of ignorance, and maybe a dash of laziness and a
                      > pinch
                      > of 'faux hip'.
                      >
                      >
                      > Graham Moss
                      > Incline Press
                      > 36 Bow Street
                      > Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                      > http://www.inclinepress.com
                      >
                      >
                      I gather - everyone on this list agrees with me in being frustrated at
                      the failure to use the f ligature. The question then seems to me - How
                      do we communicate this point to the publishers? I personally intend to
                      contact Random House to voice my displeasure with their lack of
                      diligence in monitoring the typesetting of their books. I feel that the
                      only way to preserve these standards is to scream loud and often. Apathy
                      is the cause for change in society more often than activism

                      --


                      Austin Jones
                      prints by AJ
                      Point Pleasant, WV USA
                      austin@...
                      http://printsbyaj.com



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Carole Aldrich
                      It is very simple to turn on the use of ligatures in page layout software like Quark or InDesign. It does not make extra work, only the awareness that this
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
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                        It is very simple to "turn on" the use of ligatures in page layout
                        software like Quark or InDesign. It does not make extra work, only
                        the awareness that this should be done, just as turning on the
                        function to convert "typewriter quotes" to "curly quotes".



                        Carole Aldrich
                        carolealdrich@...
                        909-625-7722
                        909-625-9822 fax
                        909-374-2981 cell
                      • Graham and Kathy
                        All the logical reasons for complaint were concisely expressed in Austins email. Those of us who think it s important ought to be complaining every time we see
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
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                          All the logical reasons for complaint were concisely expressed in Austins
                          email. Those of us who think it's important ought to be complaining every
                          time we see a publisher with lax standards in this as well as the other
                          respects that concern not just us but a wider constituency. For instance, in
                          the UK there is an awareness reported in the literary sections of the daily
                          press of a loss of editorial work and of proof-reading. I would assume that
                          it's all to do with making books cheaper by cutting overheads, and thus ties
                          in with using under-educated typists when it comes to setting the books
                          instead of typists who know what correct typesetting should entail.

                          Despite such an economic imperative running the show, I wouldn't consider
                          complaining about falling standards to be a waste of time. There are
                          publishers who maintain standards, and they manage in the same market. They
                          should get letters too.


                          Graham Moss
                          Incline Press
                          36 Bow Street
                          Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                          http://www.inclinepress.com
                        • Scott Rubel
                          The only way to get this across to publishers is the old-fashioned way: boycott and demonstrate. Pace out front of your favorite bookstore carrying a sign with
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
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                            The only way to get this across to publishers is the old-fashioned
                            way: boycott and demonstrate. Pace out front of your favorite
                            bookstore carrying a sign with an "f" and "l" with a red circle and
                            cross through them. Hand out broadsides. Check shoppers' bags for
                            ligatureless reading matter and implore them to return it and get
                            their money back.

                            I am doing my part. I am circling every missed opportunity for a
                            ligature in every book I received for Christmas and I'm sending them
                            back to the publishers as "unreadable" and telling them to get their
                            (and here's my favorite ligature) fhit together.

                            ♜Scott Rubel♖

                            On Jan 2, 2006, at 8:11 AM, Austin wrote:

                            > Graham and Kathy wrote:
                            >
                            >> Ignorance, cup-fulls of ignorance, and maybe a dash of laziness
                            >> and a pinch of 'faux hip'.
                            >>
                            >> Graham Moss
                            >> Incline Press
                            >> 36 Bow Street
                            >> Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                            >> http://www.inclinepress.com
                            >>
                            > I gather - everyone on this list agrees with me in being frustrated at
                            > the failure to use the f ligature. The question then seems to me - How
                            > do we communicate this point to the publishers? I personally intend to
                            > contact Random House to voice my displeasure with their lack of
                            > diligence in monitoring the typesetting of their books. I feel that
                            > the
                            > only way to preserve these standards is to scream loud and often.
                            > Apathy
                            > is the cause for change in society more often than activism
                            >
                            > --
                            > Austin Jones
                            > prints by AJ
                            > Point Pleasant, WV USA
                            > austin@...
                            > http://printsbyaj.com
                          • Scott Rubel
                            I was not aware of this in InDesign. Bummer…all the time I spent inserting ligatures. Ignorance. Thank you for the lesson. --Scott
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
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                              I was not aware of this in InDesign.

                              Bummer…all the time I spent inserting ligatures.

                              Ignorance. Thank you for the lesson.

                              --Scott

                              On Jan 2, 2006, at 8:47 AM, Carole Aldrich wrote:

                              > It is very simple to "turn on" the use of ligatures in page layout
                              > software like Quark or InDesign. It does not make extra work, only
                              > the awareness that this should be done, just as turning on the
                              > function to convert "typewriter quotes" to "curly quotes".
                              >
                              > Carole Aldrich
                              > carolealdrich@...
                              > 909-625-7722
                              > 909-625-9822 fax
                              > 909-374-2981 cell
                            • Farida Bee
                              Scott, This would make a great T-shirt design. Farida ... sign with an f and l with a red circle and cross through them.
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
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                                Scott,

                                This would make a great T-shirt design.

                                Farida



                                --- Scott Rubel <scott@...> wrote:

                                > Pace out front of your favorite bookstore carrying a
                                sign with an "f" and "l" with a red circle and cross
                                through them.



                                __________________________________________
                                Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
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                              • Michael T. Metz
                                That s hilarious, and it would probably make the news. Civil disobedience at its best. ... From: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jan 2, 2006
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                                  That's hilarious, and it would probably make the
                                  news. Civil disobedience at its best.

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Scott Rubel
                                  Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 3:38 PM
                                  To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Digital Ligatures


                                  The only way to get this across to publishers is the old-fashioned
                                  way: boycott and demonstrate. Pace out front of your favorite
                                  bookstore carrying a sign with an "f" and "l" with a red circle and
                                  cross through them. Hand out broadsides. Check shoppers' bags for
                                  ligatureless reading matter and implore them to return it and get
                                  their money back.

                                  I am doing my part. I am circling every missed opportunity for a
                                  ligature in every book I received for Christmas and I'm sending them
                                  back to the publishers as "unreadable" and telling them to get their
                                  (and here's my favorite ligature) fhit together.

                                  ♜Scott Rubel♖

                                  On Jan 2, 2006, at 8:11 AM, Austin wrote:

                                  > Graham and Kathy wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> Ignorance, cup-fulls of ignorance, and maybe a dash of laziness
                                  >> and a pinch of 'faux hip'.
                                  >>
                                  >> Graham Moss
                                  >> Incline Press
                                  >> 36 Bow Street
                                  >> Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                                  >> http://www.inclinepress.com
                                  >>
                                  > I gather - everyone on this list agrees with me in being frustrated at
                                  > the failure to use the f ligature. The question then seems to me - How
                                  > do we communicate this point to the publishers? I personally intend to
                                  > contact Random House to voice my displeasure with their lack of
                                  > diligence in monitoring the typesetting of their books. I feel that
                                  > the
                                  > only way to preserve these standards is to scream loud and often.
                                  > Apathy
                                  > is the cause for change in society more often than activism
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > Austin Jones
                                  > prints by AJ
                                  > Point Pleasant, WV USA
                                  > austin@...
                                  > http://printsbyaj.com



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